Jump to content


Photo

Lewis will hit back in Spain


  • Please log in to reply
513 replies to this topic

#51 pjabyrne

pjabyrne
  • Member

  • 113 posts
  • Joined: June 06

Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:04

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer

I also think it would be wise for Lewis to let his driving do the talking in future. He does tend to be a mouthy sort, although, to be fair, I suppose every time he turns around there is a reporter wanting to know something or other, which will inevitably be printed. Still, he doesn´t have to play into their hands so willingly. He should take a leaf out of the world champions book in this respect.


This is problem no.1 for LH. If what Lauda is saying is correct and his relatively poor performances this year are down to the pressure he puts on himself, I would contend that a lot of that pressure comes from Lewis ratcheting up expectations by continuously mouthing off. Contrast this to Kimi, Hekki, MS or even Massa who keep their mouth shut and just get on with the job.

BTW HK flat-spotted his tyre on the first lap which explains how he could put in the fastest lap in his final stint. This highlights 2 things:
1. McLaren are stronger than recent performances suggest. Still ahead of BMW overall and could well be ahead of Ferrari on the Euro circuits.
2. If HK hadn't made that mistake the pressure would be piled even higher on Lewis. The problem for Lewis is that we haven't seen the best of Hekki and he is already matching and occasionally beating him. Fan-boys such as Peter Windsor 'better than MS/Senna :drunk: ' have also done him no favours.

Originally posted by StefanV

I saw an interview with him and Nico. Lewis is a guy that can not lose. What will happen with him when he cannot win?

Another big problem for Hamilton. Thanks to Ron Dennis' patronage he has had top-level equipment from his karting days. He walked into F1 with the best car on the grid. What happens if McLaren slip behind and can no longer challenge for wins/podiums/WDC (unlikely that'll be this year mind). If McLaren were to slip back to current Renault level methinks he's make Alonso's whining pale in comparison...

Advertisement

#52 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 09 April 2008 - 08:50

Originally posted by PassWind



... If you are driving a very fast car, and you break the wing lap one what are you going to do about it? Now as we may hypothetically talk about it, did Lewis decide to ride it out until the next pit? Implying he knew exactly the handling problems of the car. But he knew or should have he nearly got clocked by the wing and surely before it flew off he would've had substantial vibrational feedback from the front of the car and after the break something wouldn't have felt right. The onboard shows him under steering into every tight turn so he knew and if were to say he didn't notice well make your own conclusions as to his level of experience. ...


Frankly it looked as if he got into the "red-mist" zone as soon as he had boggled the start and only came out of it when he rejoined the track from his off due to the missing front-wing (one or two corners after the Alonso incident).

I don't believe there was much thinking involved from his side during the first two laps.

#53 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 09 April 2008 - 14:01

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I think you just dislike the guy mate.


I agree with you. I despise his sneaky ways (and his father's,) although I do like his driving. I think he's got talent. I think he will win a title someday, although I doubt that he will become the Tiger Woods of Formula 1. He's letting his ego get the best of him.

Sooner of later he's going to hit The Wall.

#54 Torch

Torch
  • Member

  • 254 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 09 April 2008 - 14:46

Originally posted by pjabyrne

2. If HK hadn't made that mistake the pressure would be piled even higher on Lewis. The problem for Lewis is that we haven't seen the best of Hekki and he is already matching and occasionally beating him.


I don't think Lewis has been at his best either. Its a bit unfair to compare a hypothetical better HK with a bad performance from LH.

Its far to early to be drawing comparisons especially considering how much has gone on for both drivers in the first 3 races (different fuel loads, stuck wheels, flat spots etc).

We can say that HK is doing a pretty good job considering he's in a new team with a lot of pressure.

#55 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,412 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 April 2008 - 15:06

Originally posted by El_Capitán
I despise his sneaky ways

:confused:

#56 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 09 April 2008 - 15:24

Ricardo, it's just my opinion, that's all. Nothing to get all upset about.

I do like his driving... when he's actually on the track that is. As of lately he's developed a love for showing us his skidding and tyre-degrading abilities, but the man will eventually pick up his game.

#57 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,412 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 April 2008 - 15:51

Originally posted by El_Capitán
Ricardo, it's just my opinion, that's all. Nothing to get all upset about.

I'm not upset I'm just curious as to what these "sneaky ways" are.

#58 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 09 April 2008 - 20:12

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I'm not upset I'm just curious as to what these "sneaky ways" are.


Hungary? Hamilton at the geginning of season: "I know my place in the team". Hamilton at the end of season: "It's best if Alonso leaves McLaren".

Hamilton's comments do show a certain tendency for dichotomy. You just have to listen carefully.

In any case, with Alonso outta the running, I'm ravidly awaiting Hamilton's comeback. I really want him to win this year. I think he's performed superbly last year, for a rookie, and it's fun to see how (when McM is fast) he just blows everyone out of the water.

It will be interesting to see what McM's strategy will be for Spain... LH really needs to put some points on the board, which usually translates into more aggressiveness on the part of any driver (and he's already two notches above anyone else in the aggressiveness department).

Aside from that, I think Hamilton's personal strategy for this year was to make as much of a difference, point-wise, early on, establish an early lead and play it conservatively when the car was slow. It's now on to plan B for him.

I can't wait for the Spanish GP!


#59 Sakae

Sakae
  • Member

  • 19,256 posts
  • Joined: December 03

Posted 09 April 2008 - 20:19

Originally posted by glorius&victorius
As a team (Mclaren + Lewis) had two bad races in a row and what do they come up with: Lewis will hit back in Spain.


Maybe this time Alonso should make sure he is behind him, so he doesn't get it (again).

Advertisement

#60 PassWind

PassWind
  • Member

  • 4,828 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 09 April 2008 - 20:59

Originally posted by as65p


Frankly it looked as if he got into the "red-mist" zone as soon as he had boggled the start and only came out of it when he rejoined the track from his off due to the missing front-wing (one or two corners after the Alonso incident).

I don't believe there was much thinking involved from his side during the first two laps.



I could run with that hence his disgust at himself post race, its all good he learns and things move on, my only gripe is this usually gets sorted in a less competitive team. Ron knows what he is doing I suppose.....

#61 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 09 April 2008 - 21:13

Originally posted by PassWind



I could run with that hence his disgust at himself post race, its all good he learns and things move on, my only gripe is this usually gets sorted in a less competitive team. Ron knows what he is doing I suppose.....


Well, no way back at this stage, I suppose. Hamiltons rise was unique for many reasons, good and bad, and now he just has to live with it and seriously establish himself. Interesting to watch, certainly.

#62 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,412 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 09 April 2008 - 21:17

Originally posted by El_Capitán
Hungary?

Hungary was not the highlight of his year it must be said. No excuses for his actions, even fewer for Alonso's.

Originally posted by El_Capitán
Hamilton at the geginning of season: "I know my place in the team". Hamilton at the end of season: "It's best if Alonso leaves McLaren".

Was anyone else denying the latter part. He came into McLaren with incredibly lofty challenges and met them. After Alonso's Hungary stunt the latter was true for all - even if I wished Alonso had stayed.

#63 pingu666

pingu666
  • Member

  • 8,716 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 09 April 2008 - 23:45

he was right to stay out with the bridge wing gone, after all he was fast enuff to hit alonso, plus ud lose massive amount of time from pitting, which he did later on...

#64 Formulaonefan

Formulaonefan
  • Member

  • 389 posts
  • Joined: February 08

Posted 10 April 2008 - 09:21

Too much hype on him, beaten fair and square in Malaysia would have been outqualified here in Bahrain if fuel loads were the same, Hamilton qualified under 2 tenths faster than Kovalainen with about 8kgs less fuel. Nothing impressive. In Melbourne he managed to win. Kovalainen set a faster fastest lap. Nothing special so far from Hamilton so far.

#65 kar

kar
  • Member

  • 10,307 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 10 April 2008 - 09:26

Lewis could well hit back in Barcelona, I'm just thinking back to the winter tests where Ferrari seemed to relatively struggle to set a significantly better single lap time.

Over a stint the Ferrari is on another planet compared to the Merc, but that doesn't matter at Barca if you can run away from pole with a commensurate fuel load to the guy behind you. I wouldn't bet against Lewis putting it on pole and winning from there. He seems to be in the mould of Massa where if there's no one in front of him and he can run his own race he's especially strong.

#66 Imperial

Imperial
  • Member

  • 2,715 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 10 April 2008 - 09:37

Anyone who hasn't read the "GROWING HAMILTON TITLE HOPE IS FADING ON THE UP" article at sniffpetrol.com is well advised to do so.

Hilarious and completely true.

#67 Owen

Owen
  • Member

  • 10,473 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 10 April 2008 - 10:17

Originally posted by kar
Lewis could well hit back in Barcelona, I'm just thinking back to the winter tests where Ferrari seemed to relatively struggle to set a significantly better single lap time.

Over a stint the Ferrari is on another planet compared to the Merc, but that doesn't matter at Barca if you can run away from pole with a commensurate fuel load to the guy behind you. I wouldn't bet against Lewis putting it on pole and winning from there. He seems to be in the mould of Massa where if there's no one in front of him and he can run his own race he's especially strong.


Whichever team can bring the bigger performance gain to Spain (after the testing and ongoing development), is going to have a big impact, I would factor that in as well though. Appreciating that they are all advancing at the same time, but the outlook could change. Just to be clear, I'm not hinting that McLaren may have an edge I'm saying any one of the 3 could 'find' something that changes the order or increases any gaps between teams.

#68 cordell777

cordell777
  • Member

  • 745 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 10 April 2008 - 11:46

Originally posted by kar
Lewis could well hit back in Barcelona...

I hope not again in Alonso's car ;)

#69 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 10 April 2008 - 13:08

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I'm not upset I'm just curious as to what these "sneaky ways" are.


I think you know very well what his detractors perceive as his "sneaky ways", you just don't agree with it.

Which makes the seemingly innocent way you asked the question kind of... sneaky.

;)

#70 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 10 April 2008 - 15:20

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Hungary was not the highlight of his year it must be said. No excuses for his actions, even fewer for Alonso's.


Well, that is arguable (at best). Hungary was the culmination of a series of events and circumstances that pushed Nano over the limit. He must've been royally pissed off that day, because I remember him saying "this team does not want me to win. They want someone else to win!" (I presume he was referring Hamilton) to Lobato (Spanish journalist).

Now, we all know Alonso's temper has a tendency to overheat easily (off the track,) but Dennis is not known to be the calming type either (see Montoya and all the Latin guys he's had problems with,) and that day he had a lot of explaining to do, especially to the Spanish press. Instead of doing that he kept his usual "get a load of me!!" posture, said nothing about the issue and kept going as though nothing had happened.

Going back to the issue at hand, do I think Alonso's actions were right? Nope, but let's not forget that his actions were really a REACTION preceded by Lewis' decision to go against team orders. If there's anyone and any moment to blame (or point out) for McM not having won the WC it is precisely that moment when Hamilton took it upon himself to get THE extra lap when he knew it was Alonso's turn. Had Alonso not been penalized for such a coordinated "team effort" he would've most likely become a 3-time WDC.


Was anyone else denying the latter part. He came into McLaren with incredibly lofty challenges and met them. After Alonso's Hungary stunt the latter was true for all - even if I wished Alonso had stayed.


Excuse me! It's wasn't the "Hungary Show starring Fernando Alonso". It was Lewis who acted in a childish way. Alonso did what any champion would've done (remember this guy... you know, the king of dirty tricks... a certain Schumacher?, which is to stand his ground. But let's put the spotlight on Dennis for a second. What Dennis should've done after the Hungary incident was to internally penalize Hamilton for going against team orders. If I were him I'd make him drive the Hungarian GP on 3 wheels! Alonso's team took NO ACTION against Lewis, which screams one thing: His own boss stabbed him in the back.


#71 COUGAR508

COUGAR508
  • Member

  • 1,182 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 10 April 2008 - 20:20

Originally posted by Formulaonefan
Too much hype on him, beaten fair and square in Malaysia would have been outqualified here in Bahrain if fuel loads were the same, Hamilton qualified under 2 tenths faster than Kovalainen with about 8kgs less fuel. Nothing impressive. In Melbourne he managed to win. Kovalainen set a faster fastest lap. Nothing special so far from Hamilton so far.


The interesting thing is that Hamilton has not been noticeably more impressive than Kovalainen, and if his uneven form continues, and if the Finn keeps racking up the points, questions will be asked.

It may be argued that Lewis used up a lot of his good luck in 2007, and the harsh realities of F1 are now beginning to hit. It can be an unforgiving business. If he can come through his and the team's current difficulties, he will be all the stronger for it.

#72 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,412 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 10 April 2008 - 20:56

Originally posted by El_Capitán
Excuse me! It's wasn't the "Hungary Show starring Fernando Alonso". It was Lewis who acted in a childish way.

See this is where you go universally wrong. It absolutely WAS the Hungary Show starring Fernando Alonso. His immaturity at that very point is what caused everything that followed. NOBODY, outside of the McLaren pitwall and two drivers knew that ANYTHING was at all off. Until Alonso acted. If Alonso had been mature he would have run qualifying, come back to the pits and dealt with it behind closed doors.

Originally posted by El_Capitán
What Dennis should've done after the Hungary incident was to internally penalize Hamilton for going against team orders. If I were him I'd make him drive the Hungarian GP on 3 wheels! Alonso's team took NO ACTION against Lewis, which screams one thing: His own boss stabbed him in the back.

Again your passion for Alonso fails to allow you to see the problem with this. Hamilton and Dennis clearly had some pretty cross words after qualifying on the radio, and no doubt Dennis was going to have some severe words with Mr Hamilton post qualifying. Making him drive the Grand Prix on three wheels or with any other penalty is stupid, McLaren are in the WCC and WDC to compete - they aren't in the business of penalizing themselves because of a petulant action of one of their drivers. Punishment can take many forms, but they aren't going to risk WCC points because of it.

Dennis didn't stab Alonso in the back, Alonso ASSUMED his own boss was going to so he decided to commit Hari -Kiri.

#73 wrighty

wrighty
  • Member

  • 3,608 posts
  • Joined: November 06

Posted 10 April 2008 - 21:16

Originally posted by as65p


Well, no way back at this stage, I suppose. Hamiltons rise was unique for many reasons, good and bad, and now he just has to live with it and seriously establish himself. Interesting to watch, certainly.


absolutely :up: i'm a fan but this is a very interesting position for him and McLaren to be in right now...last year, when all was rosy (haha) i said that McLaren had redefined driver development and i still think they've blazed a trail.....Hamilton's in a new position now for the first time in a very long time, i.e. on the back foot...we're in uncharted territory imo, it's gonna be fascinating :)

ps - i actually saw the 'broken front wing = sudden burst of acceleration' story on a site today that a colleague subscribes to connected to F1.....oh, spare me please :rotfl: pisss aaaarf haha

#74 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 10 April 2008 - 21:23

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
See this is where you go universally wrong. It absolutely WAS the Hungary Show starring Fernando Alonso. His immaturity at that very point is what caused everything that followed. NOBODY, outside of the McLaren pitwall and two drivers knew that ANYTHING was at all off. Until Alonso acted. If Alonso had been mature he would have run qualifying, come back to the pits and dealt with it behind closed doors.

Again your passion for Alonso fails to allow you to see the problem with this. Hamilton and Dennis clearly had some pretty cross words after qualifying on the radio, and no doubt Dennis was going to have some severe words with Mr Hamilton post qualifying. Making him drive the Grand Prix on three wheels or with any other penalty is stupid, McLaren are in the WCC and WDC to compete - they aren't in the business of penalizing themselves because of a petulant action of one of their drivers. Punishment can take many forms, but they aren't going to risk WCC points because of it.

Dennis didn't stab Alonso in the back, Alonso ASSUMED his own boss was going to so he decided to commit Hari -Kiri.


I really don't understand why you saw the need to provoke this same old discussion another time.

Isn't it obvious that Alonso supporters (including me and, I suppose El_Capitán) are largely of the opinion that Lewis was allowed to get away with everything at McLaren and THAT was the reason Alonso finally boiled over in Hungary qualifying, whereas Hamilton supporters (including you) believe that Hamilton did nothing wrong and Alonso just couldn't handle an equally fast teammate?

Why not just accept those differing viewpoints and move on. It has been discussed to death and nobody will change sides just because the same arguments are repeated over an over.

Give it a rest, please. It's 2008 now, there are new things to worry for a Lewis fan right now...

#75 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 10 April 2008 - 21:46

Originally posted by wrighty


absolutely :up: i'm a fan but this is a very interesting position for him and McLaren to be in right now...last year, when all was rosy (haha) i said that McLaren had redefined driver development and i still think they've blazed a trail.....Hamilton's in a new position now for the first time in a very long time, i.e. on the back foot...we're in uncharted territory imo, it's gonna be fascinating :)

ps - i actually saw the 'broken front wing = sudden burst of acceleration' story on a site today that a colleague subscribes to connected to F1.....oh, spare me please :rotfl: pisss aaaarf haha


:up:;)

Let's see how it goes, nothing is decided yet. It could have been worse for Lewis if Heikki would have gotten his (deserved) second place in Melbourne, OTOH without the start mishap in Bahrain, Lewis would likely still lead the WDC... open season!

#76 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,412 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 10 April 2008 - 21:51

Originally posted by as65p
Isn't it obvious that Alonso supporters (including me and, I suppose El_Capitán) are largely of the opinion that Lewis was allowed to get away with everything at McLaren

Yet the words of Ron Dennis over the radio to Hamilton after the qualifying incident would rather suggest otherwise. Alonso didn't "boil" over at Hungary - he was just being petulant and immature because of what happened earlier in the session.

#77 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 10 April 2008 - 22:28

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Yet the words of Ron Dennis over the radio to Hamilton after the qualifying incident would rather suggest otherwise. Alonso didn't "boil" over at Hungary - he was just being petulant and immature because of what happened earlier in the session.


Yeah, "words"... the worst punishment Lewis ever got from the team. That has certainly teached him :lol:

Whatever, I prefer to not go through all this again. Actually I'm respecting the other point of view, I was just wondering why you apparently are unable to repeat the favour. You certainly realize that nobody outside the team knows the complete story, so it's quite childish to pretend so.

#78 undersquare

undersquare
  • Member

  • 18,929 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 10 April 2008 - 22:40

Originally posted by as65p


Whatever, I prefer to not go through all this again.


Does this mean you're going to stop posting about it? :p

#79 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 10 April 2008 - 23:18

Originally posted by undersquare


Does this mean you're going to stop posting about it? :p


That would be the sensible option, wouldn't it? But hey, nobody is here to be sensible, evidently ;)

I can promise, however, not to create threads about it or start the discussion.

Advertisement

#80 Ricardo F1

Ricardo F1
  • Member

  • 38,412 posts
  • Joined: August 99

Posted 11 April 2008 - 00:04

Originally posted by as65p


Yeah, "words"... the worst punishment Lewis ever got from the team. That has certainly teached him :lol:

Whatever, I prefer to not go through all this again. Actually I'm respecting the other point of view, I was just wondering why you apparently are unable to repeat the favour. You certainly realize that nobody outside the team knows the complete story, so it's quite childish to pretend so.

Why are you doing so then? (see your first sentence)

I didn't bring this up btw - it kinda evolved from El_Capitán's initial observations - and HE pointed to it. I'm more than happy to drop it, Hungary was a major fricking downer for me as a McLaren fan - as was losing Alonso back to Renault.

#81 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:31

After Hungary, and all the immaturity and bad temper Alonso showed, everyone has forgotten the fact that during the greater part of the Brazilian GP Alonso was the virtual WDC. It wasn't until Massa let Kimmy by that Alonso lost the Championship. This after all the talk and all the nonesense, while the Golden Child was still trying to figure out where north and south were. Nobody remembers this.

And yet, everyone keeps bashing Alonso for his bad temper, but the truth is that he did not win his las WDC because of matters that do not involve a car on a track. Namely the Hungary incident and Massa (who was going much faster than Kimmy in Brazil by the way) letting Kimmy by.

That is the truth as WE ALL know it.

#82 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 April 2008 - 01:37

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
Why are you doing so then? (see your first sentence)

I didn't bring this up btw - it kinda evolved from El_Capitán's initial observations - and HE pointed to it. I'm more than happy to drop it, Hungary was a major fricking downer for me as a McLaren fan - as was losing Alonso back to Renault.



Well, for one they could've done things diferently. It was painfully obvious to Alonso that most of the team was emotionally pro-Hamilton.

#83 Tcas

Tcas
  • Member

  • 253 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 April 2008 - 06:18

Originally posted by Ricardo F1


Again your passion for Alonso fails to allow you to see the problem with this. Hamilton and Dennis clearly had some pretty cross words after qualifying on the radio, and no doubt Dennis was going to have some severe words with Mr Hamilton post qualifying. Making him drive the Grand Prix on three wheels or with any other penalty is stupid, McLaren are in the WCC and WDC to compete - they aren't in the business of penalizing themselves because of a petulant action of one of their drivers. Punishment can take many forms, but they aren't going to risk WCC points because of it.


Harsh words? :lol:

Do you think some harsh words would have bothered Hamilton after he secured pole and victory by cheating his team mate? You basically admitt Mclaren would have not punishment Hamilton and Alonso also knew this so he did the only thing someone with integrity and spirit did. He took matters into his own hands and paid Hamilton back on track. It was the only way Hamilton was going to get punished. Harsh words , what a joke.

#84 hello86

hello86
  • Member

  • 3,660 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 11 April 2008 - 07:03

Originally posted by El_Capitán
After Hungary, and all the immaturity and bad temper Alonso showed, everyone has forgotten the fact that during the greater part of the Brazilian GP Alonso was the virtual WDC. It wasn't until Massa let Kimmy by that Alonso lost the Championship. This after all the talk and all the nonesense, while the Golden Child was still trying to figure out where north and south were. Nobody remembers this.

And yet, everyone keeps bashing Alonso for his bad temper, but the truth is that he did not win his las WDC because of matters that do not involve a car on a track. Namely the Hungary incident and Massa (who was going much faster than Kimmy in Brazil by the way) letting Kimmy by.

That is the truth as WE ALL know it.


BS they were never racing against each other as they know that kimi has more fuel and will overtake massa at the box.

the only favour that massa did to kimi was "blocking" hammy at the start.

after that both were cruising as there speed advantage was so big.
after massa came to the box kimi immediately drover much faster lap times than before.

#85 Orin

Orin
  • Member

  • 8,444 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 April 2008 - 09:02

Originally posted by El_Capitán

Going back to the issue at hand, do I think Alonso's actions were right? Nope, but let's not forget that his actions were really a REACTION preceded by Lewis' decision to go against team orders. If there's anyone and any moment to blame (or point out) for McM not having won the WC it is precisely that moment when Hamilton took it upon himself to get THE extra lap when he knew it was Alonso's turn. Had Alonso not been penalized for such a coordinated "team effort" he would've most likely become a 3-time WDC.


How on earth do you manage this? You start off sensibly, but halfway through you blame Alonso's stupidity on Hamilton? Yes Hamilton was in the wrong, but NOTHING and NO ONE forced Alonso to react so brazenly. He simply shot himself in the foot. Alonso's petulance cost him a chance at the WDC, more than that it cost him the McLaren drive.

#86 Gecko

Gecko
  • Member

  • 800 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 11 April 2008 - 10:06

Originally posted by as65p
Yeah, "words"... the worst punishment Lewis ever got from the team.


And, pray tell, just what sort of a punishment do you think there exists in a professional environment? Should Lewis have been sent to Max for a bit of spanking? Any actual competitive punishment against Hamilton that would hinder his chances would also hinder McLaren as a team.

#87 as65p

as65p
  • Member

  • 17,218 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 11 April 2008 - 10:19

Originally posted by Gecko


And, pray tell, just what sort of a punishment do you think there exists in a professional environment? Should Lewis have been sent to Max for a bit of spanking? Any actual competitive punishment against Hamilton that would hinder his chances would also hinder McLaren as a team.


Now we're into it, again :rolleyes:

an appropriate action would have been to give Alonso first choice on strategy for the next two or three qualifyings instead of alternating between the two like they did up to that point.

Embarassingly simple, don't you think? And it wouldn't have affected the overall team chances any different than the artificial alternating they used before.

Now I'm out of this. I promise... at least for this thread.;)

#88 Orin

Orin
  • Member

  • 8,444 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 April 2008 - 10:42

Originally posted by as65p


Now we're into it, again :rolleyes:

an appropriate action would have been to give Alonso first choice on strategy for the next two or three qualifyings instead of alternating between the two like they did up to that point.

Embarassingly simple, don't you think? And it wouldn't have affected the overall team chances any different than the artificial alternating they used before.

Now I'm out of this. I promise... at least for this thread.;)


And perhaps Alonso could have asked for this rather than going down the vigilante route? Embarrassingly simple, don't you think?

#89 pasadena

pasadena
  • Member

  • 254 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 11 April 2008 - 10:50

Originally posted by El_Capitán
After Hungary, and all the immaturity and bad temper Alonso showed, everyone has forgotten the fact that during the greater part of the Brazilian GP Alonso was the virtual WDC. It wasn't until Massa let Kimmy by that Alonso lost the Championship. This after all the talk and all the nonesense, while the Golden Child was still trying to figure out where north and south were. Nobody remembers this.

And yet, everyone keeps bashing Alonso for his bad temper, but the truth is that he did not win his las WDC because of matters that do not involve a car on a track. Namely the Hungary incident and Massa (who was going much faster than Kimmy in Brazil by the way) letting Kimmy by.

That is the truth as WE ALL know it.

The truth is that FA last year made his own share of mistakes but had he enjoyed the same or even less level of support within his team as KR did (FM being relegated to the supporting driver's role during the last part of the season), he would have won the title easily. However, FA was not even on equal terms with LH within McLaren. McLaren opted to back a wrong driver and shot themselves in the foot in the process.

Whether anybody likes it or not, if there hadn't been any team orders in Ferrari (or McLaren), FA would have been the 2007 WDC.

#90 kar

kar
  • Member

  • 10,307 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 11 April 2008 - 11:01

One wonders what the result of Monaco and Malaysia 2007 might have been but for 'team strategy'.

In Monaco Lewis looked very fast. In Malaysia he did the team job acting as mobile chicane on Raikkonen sacrificing any hope in hell of winning the race.

I'm not saying this is evidence of 'team orders', any more than the curious position shuffling in Brazil was of Ferrari's, but I think Alonso was the beneficiary of McLaren team strategy as often as Raikkonen was at Ferrari.

The only difference was post Hungary the complete breakdown that happened in the team and that could not (and surely did not) mean Fernando's maximum energy could be devoted to driving fast, while Raikkonen's could.

#91 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,122 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 11 April 2008 - 11:05

Originally posted by Orin


And perhaps Alonso could have asked for this rather than going down the vigilante route? Embarrassingly simple, don't you think?


Perhaps Hamilton could have lived up to the agreement embarrassingly simple, don't you think? He did not, this makes Hamilton 100% responsible for the Hungary mess. Had Hamilton not backstabbed his team and teammate Mac would be WCC and Alonso would be WDC and Mac would be $100,000,000.00 richer and they would be in the #1 pit box. Plus Hamilton choked on his ill gotten advantage. Trying to lay blame off on Alonso is just blinkered Hamilton fans desperately grasping at straws in an attempt to cover for Hamilton's monumental lack of judgment.

#92 pasadena

pasadena
  • Member

  • 254 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 11 April 2008 - 11:07

Originally posted by kar
One wonders what the result of Monaco and Malaysia 2007 might have been but for 'team strategy'.

In Monaco Lewis looked very fast. In Malaysia he did the team job acting as mobile chicane on Raikkonen sacrificing any hope in hell of winning the race.

I'm not saying this is evidence of 'team orders', any more than the curious position shuffling in Brazil was of Ferrari's, but I think Alonso was the beneficiary of McLaren team strategy as often as Raikkonen was at Ferrari.

The only difference was post Hungary the complete breakdown that happened in the team and that could not (and surely did not) mean Fernando's maximum energy could be devoted to driving fast, while Raikkonen's could.

At Monaco it's all about the qualifying. LH had his chance but was slower when it mattered. If they had been alloved to race for the whole distance, it would probably have resulted in a crash. The chance that LH could have overtaken FA on track was not slim but non-existent.

About Malaysia, again, LH was behind. I doubt he could have been quicker. Even if he could, he couldn't have beaten FA.

And then we must remember Hungary.

#93 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 April 2008 - 11:43

Originally posted by hello86


BS they were never racing against each other as they know that kimi has more fuel and will overtake massa at the box.

the only favour that massa did to kimi was "blocking" hammy at the start.

after that both were cruising as there speed advantage was so big.
after massa came to the box kimi immediately drover much faster lap times than before.


Sure! Sure! Keep telling yourself that.

Massa is Brazilian. Massa's goal was to win in Brazil. Massa was faster than Kimmy in Brazil.

Check the timetables if you do not believe me. And this is a fact not just my opinion.



#94 Orin

Orin
  • Member

  • 8,444 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:00

Originally posted by SlateGray


Perhaps Hamilton could have lived up to the agreement embarrassingly simple, don't you think? He did not, this makes Hamilton 100% responsible for the Hungary mess. Had Hamilton not backstabbed his team and teammate Mac would be WCC and Alonso would be WDC and Mac would be $100,000,000.00 richer and they would be in the #1 pit box.


Sorry, but this is madness. Hamilton's transgression did not automatically lead to the vigilante act by Alonso which penalised both himself and the team, Alonso could have left it to the team to enforce discipline; and speaking of backstabbing, shopping McLaren for using Ferrari data was a disgrace, especially when he appears to have been centrally involved in pumping Stepney for information, it revealed him as someone without honour. Ultimately McLaren are best off without the prima donna.

#95 Owen

Owen
  • Member

  • 10,473 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:02

Originally posted by Orin


Ultimately McLaren are best off without the prima donna.


:up: :up: :up: :up:

#96 Nukle

Nukle
  • Member

  • 190 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:28

Lewis will hit Alonso´s car back AGAIN? :rotfl:

#97 El_Capitn

El_Capitn
  • Member

  • 564 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:28

Originally posted by Owen


:up: :up: :up: :up:


Unbelievable. The guy could've gotten you the first WDC since the Jurasic period and you call him a prima dona.

Grateful group you are indeed!

#98 Dick_Dastardly

Dick_Dastardly
  • Member

  • 262 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:32

Originally posted by Orin


Sorry, but this is madness. Hamilton's transgression did not automatically lead to the vigilante act by Alonso which penalised both himself and the team, Alonso could have left it to the team to enforce discipline; and speaking of backstabbing, shopping McLaren for using Ferrari data was a disgrace, especially when he appears to have been centrally involved in pumping Stepney for information, it revealed him as someone without honour. Ultimately McLaren are best off without the prima donna.


:up: :up: :up:

#99 SlateGray

SlateGray
  • Member

  • 6,122 posts
  • Joined: August 00

Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:36

Originally posted by Orin


and speaking of backstabbing, shopping McLaren for using Ferrari data was a disgrace, especially when he appears to have been centrally involved in pumping Stepney for information, it revealed him as someone without honour. Ultimately McLaren are best off without the prima donna.


There is no way you can know what happened there so I call Bull Shit on your fantasy. Again just a blinkered Hamilton fan grasping at straws trying to lay blame off on Alonso in an attempt to cover for Hamilton's monumental lack of judgment.

Originally posted by Orin
Ultimately McLaren are best off without the prima donna.


For that to happen McLaren would have to sack Hamilton, which would be fully justified based Hamilton's current lack of form. The little prat has not yet come to grips with his huge failings of 07 and now he is stinking out the place in 08 he should be sat down in favor of a driver that can get the job done when it counts.

Advertisement

#100 Owen

Owen
  • Member

  • 10,473 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 11 April 2008 - 12:39

Originally posted by SlateGray

For that to happen McLaren would have to sack Hamilton, which would be fully justified based Hamilton's current lack of form. The little prat has not yet come to grips with his huge failings of 07 and now he is stinking out the place in 08 he should be sat down in favor of a driver that can get the job done when it counts.


You don't like Hamilton. We get that. :rolleyes: