81 replies to this topic

[dick]

I'm having an argument about whether the turbos were louder than the modern engine. I say they are louder now, or at least were when we had the V-10s. I went to GPs during the turbo era and I recall them as lower and more muffled....punch you in the gut, but not the banshee scream we have now. I think the decibel level is higher now as well because I don't remember ever having to reach for my earplugs during the turbo era. Stands to reason since they didn't rev as high and the turbo itself kind of muffling the sound.

[MPea3]

I can't speak for the F1 turbo cars, but I remember being surprised at how quiet the Indy cars of the early 90s were. You could hear transaxle gears as they went by. I also know that on some of the old rally cars I used to be around, they weren't that loud if the muffler was "lost" on a stage.

At Indy for the F1 races though, earplugs were necessary for me. Even with them in, the noise was physically painful. Without them it was unbearable.

[john aston]

My perforated eardrum attests to the fact that the loudest cars I have encountered (since 71) were 3.5 litre V10s.Thanks to Pedro Diniz's Ligier Mugen I now say ''eh? speak up " quite a lot .Turbo cars varied- BMW, Ferrari and Alfas very quiet - subdued rumble.Honda V6s loud, Renault V6s- especially in Ligiers(pattern here ? ) sounded like World War III.

Personal favourites- V12 Alfa 79, Flat 12 Alfa 77, flat 12 Ferrari- 74-77,Tecno- 73- yes crap car but fantastic noise and BRM P160.Also liked the doomy howl of early -mid nineties Peugeot V10.

But the best of all- V12 Lamborghini in the Larousse- glorious howling wail.

Modern F1- well they certainly can scream- tend to sound all the same (but hey I'm half bloody deaf) but very impressive live.

If you want BIG noise- stand next to a top fueller Dragster- the earth moves.

[Arjan de Roos]

Originally posted by john aston
Renault V6s- especially in Ligiers(pattern here ? ) sounded like World War III.

I can second to that.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Normally aspirated is definitely louder, turbos act as a natural silencer and additionally the power comes from boost and not increased rpm.

If you guys want something that will screw up your eyes-ears co-ordination, listen to this new screamer pneumatic valve Kawasaki MotoGP recently tested.

If I didn't know better, I'd have said someone edited the sound to make it sound more racey.

[Doug Nye]

Matra V12 with the Pan Pipes exhaust system....

Pardon?

DCN

[simonlewisbooks]

Honda's V6 Turbo in particular was definately loud . You could easily hear it round the whole Lap at Silverstone unless the wind was in the wrong direction, but it's bellow was low frequency and so didn't actually hurt like the recent V10s.
The V10 era, to my shattered ears, was the first where racing engines went beyond the "ahhh bisto" effect and stopped being pleasurable to listen to trackside.

The CART cars that ran at Rockingham were quite disappointingly quiet by comparison to the old F1 turbos.

Nothing quite matches a V12 though, be it a bellowing BRM, a rasping Ferrari 312 or a howling Matra. The V16 BRM is the most exciting car to hear. It really sends the shivers down your spine but it's not the most pleasant on the ear. The 2.5 litre 246 Dino sounds glorious as well....

[drivers71]

No debate Doug.......
I was just about to give my Matra two centimes when your post arrived. Unbelievable sound, especially when they (sometimes) ran in tandem with the Ferrari twelves

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
Matra V12 with the Pan Pipes exhaust system....

Pardon?

DCN

I'll second that! Oh and the best place to experience the ear-drum shattering noise - Casino Square, Monaco!

[Andrew Kitson]

I agree with John...nothing compares to the 8000bhp of a modern top fuel nitro dragster when the light turns green. The earth does shake, as does your whole body even from the spectator bank. Huge 5ft high flames from the exhausts add to the spectacle and trying to understand the rapid acceleration of a machine that can reach 100mph within 60ft, guzzling it's nitro-methane mix at a rate of 15 gallons over the quarter mile.

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


The CART cars that ran at Rockingham were quite disappointingly quiet by comparison to the old F1 turbos.

My first CART race was Miami 2003, where they were double-heading with ALMS. I'd been attending race meetings for nearly 30 years and nothing was as loud as the big iron in ALMS blasting off the walls - the 'Vettes and Panozes were right on the pain threshold and it was the first time Emma or I had felt the need to wear earplugs at a meeting (and I'd done a Monaco GP back in '96 - fell in love with the Pug and Mugen-Honda V10s). But the day after, sat in the same seats in the stands, the Champcar boys were so quiet that we could conduct a conversation during the race without raising our voices!

The Audi R10 is truly scary - when it's in traffic all you hear are transmission noise, tyres and brakes. It's about as loud as the average 'hot hatch' in isolation, I reckon.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by petefenelon


My first CART race was Miami 2003, where they were double-heading with ALMS. I'd been attending race meetings for nearly 30 years and nothing was as loud as the big iron in ALMS blasting off the walls - the 'Vettes and Panozes were right on the pain threshold and it was the first time Emma or I had felt the need to wear earplugs at a meeting

The first time I ever felt the need for earplugs was with the BPR GT series McLarens at Silverstone in 1996 - standing on the exit of Abbey just before bridge with the bark of those big V12s bouncing back off the enbankment...through one ear, right through my brain and out the other side.
But that was easy compared to being in the pit lane a few years later during the V10 era of F1 . Out on the track the noise can dissipate easily but when it echoed between grandstands and pit buildings it bloody hurts!

[Sharman]

I know it ages me (I am by inclination and anno domini a boring old fart) but I was always most impressed by Straight Engines, 6s and 8s, there was never any "woffle" with them

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by petefenelon

The Audi R10 is truly scary - when it's in traffic all you hear are transmission noise, tyres and brakes. It's about as loud as the average 'hot hatch' in isolation, I reckon.

That is not a racing car, what is the point? Designed by people without a racing soul. Noise is a major part of the attraction, the exciting anticipation when you get to the circuit when you can hear the cars already on track, even after regularly attending tests and race meetings for well over 40 years.

Unfortunately it is the way it is all going, with noise restrictions at every circuit. I can see the membership of this forum growing enormously in future years when the good old days are increasingly fondly remembered. Discussing the days when racing engines made different interesting sounds, which they won't in the future when they all whistle past like a boring R10! How depressingly dull.

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Andrew Kitson


That is not a racing car, what is the point? Designed by people without a racing soul. Noise is a major part of the attraction, the exciting anticipation when you get to the circuit when you can hear the cars already on track, even after regularly attending tests and race meetings for well over 40 years.

Unfortunately it is the way it is all going, with noise restrictions at every circuit. I can see the membership of this forum growing enormously in future years when the good old days are increasingly fondly remembered. Discussing the days when racing engines made different interesting sounds, which they won't in the future when they all whistle past like a boring R10! How depressingly dull.

And so say all of us.

[man]

As already mentioned, the Renault V6 turbo definitely seemed louder to me than rival turbo's.

I seem to remember the Porsche V12 in the back of the Footwork had quite a distinctive sound.

I find the current V8 F1 engines really annoying with the noise they create.

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by man

I seem to remember the Porsche V12 in the back of the Footwork had quite a distinctive sound.

I think you get an idea of that one on this old movie I shot, a couple of minutes in between Abbey and Bridge as it flashes by:

[Rosemayer]

Another distinctive sound was the Group B Audi Rally cars.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Rosemayer
Another distinctive sound was the Group B Audi Rally cars.

Having recently had the pleasure of being driven on the road in an Audi Quattro Sport (the production version) the noise inside is even better! On acceleration it is deafening but once over the ton it all goes quiet until the driver taps the power and then the music starts again.

Not the noisiest but certainly a wonderful sound!

Fire up the Quattro!

[stuartbrs]

Dad and I sat on the main straight at Adelaide in 1985 right where the F1 cars were hitting top gear... and the Renaults in particular were bloody painful.. it felt like someone was pushing a drill through your ears.. really, really awful.. it hurt a lot, not loud mind you, just a really bad resonance.. on the first day of practice there were people selling ear plugs.. on the second day, they were sold out..

13 years later, when I went to a Grand prix again, this time in Melbourne, with normally aspirated v10`s.. I was pleasantly suprised to find that whilst they appeared to be louder, I didnt feel like I needed ear plugs, nor like someone was pushing black and deckers finest into my ear drums... the Peugot`s in particular, we`re spine tinglingly fantastic...

[dick]

I'd love to hear a sample of the Lamborghini V-12. I remember hearing it live and it is my all time favorite, but I can't find any video or audio clips long enough to get a real idea of how great it sounded. Anybody?

[Keir]

As with most things, F1 has gone from glorious great sounds to painful mayhem !!

Moto Gp is not far behind.

..... but give me a Matra V12 any day !

[potmotr]

I remember the Australian Grand Prix in 1992. The 3.5 litre Honda V12 was very loud indeed, especially in the back of the Footwork. The Minardi-Lamborghini and Venturi-Lamborghinis were also deafening.

[Racer.Demon]

Originally posted by dick
I'm having an argument about whether the turbos were louder than the modern engine. I say they are louder now, or at least were when we had the V-10s. I went to GPs during the turbo era and I recall them as lower and more muffled....punch you in the gut, but not the banshee scream we have now. I think the decibel level is higher now as well because I don't remember ever having to reach for my earplugs during the turbo era. Stands to reason since they didn't rev as high and the turbo itself kind of muffling the sound.

To come back to the original question: there's no question that the V10s are many times louder and their sound carries unbelievably far, uncomparable to anything else before them.

And to go on a tangent again: the only thing to come near being as ear-shattering as the recent F1 V10s when standing up close is the Mazda four-rotor engine in the Le Mans-winning 787B. Not pretty but very impressive.

[green-blood]

sorry but all just waffle so far

BRM V16....

[Andrew Kitson]

Originally posted by green-blood
sorry but all just waffle so far

BRM V16....

When it works... Nick Mason's CD recording of the V16 at Donington (included with his 'Into the Red' book)
is wonderful. More racing cars should sound like that!

[green-blood]

but we're comparing it to the renault turbo V6.... the less said about reliability the better!!!!

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by Racer.Demon


And to go on a tangent again: the only thing to come near being as ear-shattering as the recent F1 V10s when standing up close is the Mazda four-rotor engine in the Le Mans-winning 787B. Not pretty but very impressive.

Very true.
I remember Sitting by the campfire in Garage Vert at 3am, Le Mans 1989, and the piercing sound of the Mazda could be heard round the whole 8+ mile lap . The only other car as loud, in a totally different way, was the Aston Martin AMR1 which shook the birds out of the trees as it went past and drowned out everything else.

The R&S Olds was pretty damn noisy a few years later...

[jph]

To me, the original Panoz coupés were painfully noisy - I can quite easily cope with the noise of current F1 cars, the Mazda rotaries, the Aston Martin AMR1s etc without ear plugs, but for some reason the noise of the Panoz really hurt. Heaven only knows what it must have been like in the cockpit, with the exhaust outlets a couple of feet below the driver's left ear and a thumping great engine just in front of him.

[Robin Fairservice]

As a flag marshall I can agree that the turbo charged Champ cars are quieter than many other race cars. The turbos muffle the sounds. Any american V8 can be deadly, even though one only experiences half of the engine as they go past with their exhausts sticking out of the side. The noisiest car that I came close to was the 3 litre Honda F1 that Surtees drove in 1967. I manned the Brands Hatch pit exit for practice and had to hold John nearly every time he came bake onto the track. No ear plugs, I just had to cver my ears and turn away, it was so loud an d penetrating at very close range. The only car to ever hurt my ears was an Aston Martin DB3S at Crystal Palace with the pipes coming out of the side pointing straight at me. In recent years I have used industrial ear muffs, which are great, plus I could hear people speaking to me. When one can cuts out the louder noises one hears the mechical noises of the cars as they pass.

[john aston]

BRM V 16 - yeah , sturm und drang and all that, especially on those rare occasions it wasn't running on 11, 13, 9 or whatever , but all it signified was an heroic failure .Give me a nice V12 any day- and yes I forgot to mention the Matra's otherworldly scream which was totally awesome (as I believe they say in the colonies).
The Panoz certainly made my fillings rattle too - I am not sure why it made QUITE so much din when there are so many other American V8s but the noise it made when I saw it at Donington was really quite gratuitously loud.So I loved it of course.

[flat-16]

It was a good few years ago, but I don't remember the BRM V16 striking me as being anywhere near as 'loud' as the ear-splitting din you get from modern GP cars. 'Glorious' would be more a term I'd use to describe the BRM.

Interestingly enough though, there is a fair amount of research to suggest that precognitive bias has an enormous effect on how we subjectively perceive the merits of that which our ears are exposed to. I have performed experiments in acoustically-treated rooms to prove this (people usually claim the more expensive / esoteric piece of hardware sounds better, when in fact you're fooling them, and they're still hearing the same device!).

Time and time again, the old fogeys of this forum (myself included) have hinted to the effect that modern racing machinery makes a soulless cacophony. I wonder if this could be connected to the general disenfranchisement that many here have with modern forms of the sport? (I'm not staking my life on this - just throwing the argument out for discussion. Personally, most racing cars made in the last couple of decades sound pretty shrill and uninteresting to me, although I'm not discounting the fact that the general machinations surrounding these modern vehicles could be playing a part in my perception...).


Justin

edited due to rubbish punctuation

[petefenelon]

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


Very true.
I remember Sitting by the campfire in Garage Vert at 3am, Le Mans 1989, and the piercing sound of the Mazda could be heard round the whole 8+ mile lap . The only other car as loud, in a totally different way, was the Aston Martin AMR1 which shook the birds out of the trees as it went past and drowned out everything else.

The R&S Olds was pretty damn noisy a few years later...

Reeves Callaway was a musician in his early life and the sound of that AMR-1 definitely bore witness to his former vocation. Beautiful sounding engine.

My favourite recent engine is the big Judd GV - as it's been hogged out to 5 and 5.5 litres it's just started to sound better and better. F1 scream with a bit of bass to it as well. Gorgeous.

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by flat-16
It was a good few years ago, but I don't remember the BRM V16 striking me as being anywhere near as 'loud' as the ear-splitting din you get from modern GP cars. 'Glorious' would be more a term I'd use to describe the BRM. Justin

I'd go along with that. The V16 exhaust note is much fuller, more baritone than soprano. Modern V10s and (lamented) V12s revving towards 18,000rpm were much more shrill but lacked the thump in the lungs dished-out by the V16, especially when fully wound to 11,000-plus rpm. That's something very seldom dared today. In the cockpit the driver doesn't get the full benefit of the V16's exhaust note - the stub-exhaust version I drove blasts full volume sideways, leaving a largely mechanical din sawing its way through the driver's skull.

DCN

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by flat-16
It was a good few years ago, but I don't remember the BRM V16 striking me as being anywhere near as 'loud' as the ear-splitting din you get from modern GP cars. 'Glorious' would be more a term I'd use to describe the BRM. Justin

I'd go along with that. The V16 exhaust note is much fuller, more baritone than soprano. Modern V10s and (lamented) V12s revving towards 18,000rpm were much more shrill but lacked the thump in the lungs dished-out by the V16, especially when fully wound to 11,000-plus rpm. That's something very seldom dared today. In the cockpit the driver doesn't get the full benefit of the V16's exhaust note - the stub-exhaust version I drove blasts full volume sideways, leaving a largely mechanical din sawing its way through the driver's skull. Having rejected ear plugs - in order to 'enjoy' the full benefit - I ended up with tinnitus for three days. I expected the condition to prove permanent, thankfully it did not.

But even while my ears were still ringing, I couldn't wipe the smile off my face. Otherwise the Matra V12 at around 12,000 rpm still - for me - has the edge over the higher-revving modern descant singers. Errr - but then there's the 1 1/2-litre Honda V12... That also captured your full attention. Oh yes...

DCN

[swede917]

The Matra V12 was a great sound. Although all the V12's sound great, then again I could listen to the DFV V8 all day. They were louder than the Turbo cars, with the exception of loud bang that occured when the turbo motors changed gears. The current cars would sound better if not for the 7 or 8 speed gearboxs, they allow the engine to stay in that narrow upper power band 90% of the time. Maybe if current cars had a 4 speed gearbox they would have to use the lower RPM's and the sound would not be so annyoing. What is missed is the variety of sounds todays F1 cars all sound the same.

[Ross Stonefeld]

I'd recommend a trip to MotoGP for all of you. I think you should go in general, but you'll enjoy the sounds of the prototype class.

The Hondas Yamahs and to some extent the Kawasaki's had the same sorta generic racing engine noise. The Honda was very 'clean' in changing gears. No clunking, no dip in revs, just the next year. The Yamaha, I assume due to the way it pauses to shift, sounded like a rifle going off. Probably cutting the spark momentarily.

The Suzukis and Ducatis were on another planet, you honestly wondered if the other bikes were running mufflers (and some actually do, depending on rider preference). The pneumatic valve Suzuki was rev rev rev and made your ears hurt. The Ducati was much different. It hurt when it went by. In your chest. Its hard to describe, but it made me want to sit down.

[flat-16]

You were lucky that tinnitus went after 3 days, Doug - that's a pretty long time for temporary tinnitus Having said that, I'm sure it was a price worth paying!

I think I've mentioned this before, but try a Google for "musician's earplugs". You can get ones that are designed to offer a relatively flat attenuation, preserving the overall tone, but lowering the sound pressure level.

Are we allowed to mention rally cars? I can think of some stonkingly excellent-sounding rally cars. Pretty much all of them had a badge on them that said 'Lancia', albeit with the most memorable one containing a Dino V6.

Instead of masses of cylinders, does anyone remember what a 3-cylinder Saab sounded like?

BTW - How many people got to hear the engine depicted in my avatar? I wonder what Wally Hassan's wonderful creation sounded like?

Justin

[Lotus23]

Have heard lots of 'em over the past 60-odd years. Matra at Monaco was distinctive, to say the least.

I've had the occasional whiff of tinnitus in the past year or so, but I attribute that to age more than to overexposure.

ContemporaryTop Fuel dragsters are by far the most impressive, imho: feels like Satan himself is jackhammering on your ribcage. I use ear protection assiduously, but after two of those monsters do battle I'm still amazed that my orifices aren't bleeding...

[LotusElise]

Originally posted by flat-16
[Instead of masses of cylinders, does anyone remember what a 3-cylinder Saab sounded like?

BTW - How many people got to hear the engine depicted in my avatar? I wonder what Wally Hassan's wonderful creation sounded like?

Justin [/B]

Those Saabs have an, erm, interesting exhaust note. Quite piercing in its own way.

Modern F1 cars are slightly uncomfortable on my eardrums - a bit too much "top end", I think. There is one particular Ferrari sports prototype from the 60s that seems far louder than the others - I can't for the life of me remember which one, but I'd recognise it if I saw it. Jacky Ickx used to drive one.

[HDonaldCapps]

While I fully appreciate the notion that the noise is important aspect of racing for just about everyone here, I am one of those who definitely prefers the Audi R10 level of noise. Having suffered hearing damage and loss during my many misadventures in the Great Southeastern Wargames (one of my nautical misadventures being the worse of the lot in this regard, but I digress....), only in extremely rare instances have I ever gotten even close to a racetrack since them without some serious hearing protection. Nor do I attend rock concerts or other activities where loud, ear-splitting noise is commonplace -- and I utterly hate loud restaurants. A minority view, but I will deal with that. By the way, your hearing really does not "fix" or heal itself -- contrary to popular belief. When I "do" Monaco, I will be lugging around my "ear muffs."

[swintex]

The early morning warm-up of the W154 is always one of my FOS highlights.

It's usually actually quite surreal, comparing the idiotic grins on the faces of the aficionados and the looks of horror and genuine pain of the faces of their partners with the calm professionalism of the technicians from Mercedes Benz Classic (particularly the guy with the moustache and the [Tyrolean?] hat, who normally seems to be the one in the cockpit with his foot on the throttle and his gaze on the dials).

[dick]

Having played in a rock band for years I know my hearing is damaged to a degree. Then going to F1 races doesn't help either. One year after attending the Canadian Grand Prix I went to use the phone at the airport and thought something was wrong with it...all muffled. I soon realized the phone was fine but my ears were still ringing from the race the day before. Stupidly I hadn't used my earplugs. I can get away with that on Friday and Saturday, but the full grid all screaming by for the first few laps really is ear shattering.

[fines]

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
While I fully appreciate the notion that the noise is important aspect of racing for just about everyone here, I am one of those who definitely prefers the Audi R10 level of noise.

Me too! For all those rhapsodizing about the symphonic qualities of vee-twelve engines, my one-time experience of Yamaha OX99 'music' resounding through Belgian forests was more than enough for me...

[RogerFrench]

Supercharged cars mostly have the edge in "full" sound - rather like Doug Nye says above. ERA, blown Bugatti, v16 BRM, even dragsters, all sound different but all have that full-bodied punch.
Speaking of v16, I remember a day at Oulton Park for the Gold Cup - 1965 maybe - when Jackie Stewart demoed one of the later "sprint" V16s. He was a BRM driver still, so I guess that was the year. "Wilkie" Wilkinson was looking after it, and my father and he went back ages. Somewhere I have a photo of the two of them, talking about and standing by the car, with the bonnet off. One of the things I remember Wilkie saying was that the stub pipes made it much easier to diagnose which cylinders were missing - no fire in the hole.
When Stewart went out on his demo laps, there were "Oohs and Aahs" at the noise, until he opened it up coming down towards Knickerbrook. Sorry Mr. Nye, but that's no baritone, it screamed! The crowd exclamations were much more forcible - the BRM sounded like a whole race of its own for a while. A great sound, which lives with me like that of ERAs and Bugattis at Prescott years ago.

[bobbo]

Originally posted by Doug Nye
. . . Errr - but then there's the 1 1/2-litre Honda V12... That also captured your full attention. Oh yes...

DCN

Doug, I remember that Honda at Watkins Glen in 1965 - I think it was louder, more cutting more - well - "ballsy" than the Ferrari flat 12. I still can hear the Honda coming up through the Esses . . .

And, yes, I remember the Matra V12, at the same sp[ot, but the Honda REALLY got one's attention.

Bobbo

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by RogerFrench
Supercharged cars mostly have the edge in "full" sound - rather like Doug Nye says above. ERA, blown Bugatti, v16 BRM, even dragsters, all sound different but all have that full-bodied punch.
Speaking of v16, I remember a day at Oulton Park for the Gold Cup - 1965 maybe - when Jackie Stewart demoed one of the later "sprint" V16s. He was a BRM driver still, so I guess that was the year. "Wilkie" Wilkinson was looking after it, and my father and he went back ages. Somewhere I have a photo of the two of them, talking about and standing by the car, with the bonnet off. One of the things I remember Wilkie saying was that the stub pipes made it much easier to diagnose which cylinders were missing - no fire in the hole.
When Stewart went out on his demo laps, there were "Oohs and Aahs" at the noise, until he opened it up coming down towards Knickerbrook. Sorry Mr. Nye, but that's no baritone, it screamed! The crowd exclamations were much more forcible - the BRM sounded like a whole race of its own for a while. A great sound, which lives with me like that of ERAs and Bugattis at Prescott years ago.

Were you at Oulton when Jack Oliver tried to demo the V16? After an abortive lap he pulled into the pits, Raymond Mays jumped in and showed him how it should be done!

The other glorious noise from Oulton was the Bentley-Napier at VSCC meetings!

[simonlewisbooks]

Originally posted by LotusElise


There is one particular Ferrari sports prototype from the 60s that seems far louder than the others - I can't for the life of me remember which one, but I'd recognise it if I saw it. Jacky Ickx used to drive one.

Are you thinking of the bellowing growl of the 512S ? On full song that sounds ...well the only word that seems appropriate is MAGNIFICENT !

[green-blood]

Originally posted by fines

Me too! For all those rhapsodizing about the symphonic qualities of vee-twelve engines, my one-time experience of Yamaha OX99 'music' resounding through Belgian forests was more than enough for me...

oh you lucky boy

what a fab machine that was - do any still exist

[Patrick Fletcher]

Must say that one magical day at Wigram we were on the outside of the circuit at the entry to the old start/finish straight.
Very low cloud and a cold easterly wind coming off the port hills.
Bill or James Clark in the ex Nuvolari P3 type B heading straight at our group - no other cars around to spoil the rising scream of the supercharged straight-eight, the wind carrying the sound well ahead of the approaching historic car. Memomorable