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Drivers Getting Heated up Over Tyre Blanket Ban


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#1 Buttoneer

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:05

Now Schumie is getting agitated.

Interestingly, this was raised as a suggestion by Ross some time ago.

The outcry, I think, probably started with DC in his role as GPDA head last year, but there have since been comments by Rosberg, Barrichello and Massa.

Bridgestone, on the other hand, think that the ban is a good thing.

Now obviously DC is just against it because, as we all know, DC is a pussy. But all these other drivers have a point, right? Or is Ross right?

Sadly I have to confess that I agree with Ross and that the added risk of falling off the track and having to defend hard for a lap or two is quite an exciting prospect.

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#2 as65p

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:14

Originally posted by Buttoneer

Sadly I have to confess that I agree with Ross and that the added risk of falling off the track and having to defend hard for a lap or two is quite an exciting prospect. [/B]


:up: completely agree.

However I think I can see what the critial voices from the drivers are getting at. They're naturally conditioned to fight for position in any circumstances, so they will find it hard to just let the others by with cold tyres, which could lead to some trouble and more accidents.

Seeing all the beautiful blue flag and impeding rules of the last years, I fear the FIA's answer to that will be a orange flag with a black circle on it to stop the cold-tyred cars fighting for position...;)

#3 howardt

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:17

It will lead to : "Cars on the circuit at different speeds". I guess your view of the tyre-blanket ban is directly related to your view of this outcome. As a driver, it may very well increase risk of a mistake and risk of a collision. As a spectator, it's a good thing (different speeds i mean, not collisions).

#4 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:18

Originally posted by as65p
I fear the FIA's answer to that will be a orange flag with a black circle on it to stop the cold-tyred cars fighting for position...;)

That's grimly realistic possibility.

I'm all for the tyre warmers ban, but accept they may have to do a bit of work on optimising the tyres for it as they've been running with tyre warners for - what - two decades or more?

#5 wingwalker

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:19

Haha, I thought that 'Ross' refers to mr. Brawn. I think drivers are feeling simply too comfortable, BS have recognized the issue and are working on a tyre that will get up to temperature more quickly. And drivers will have to be more careful on the out lap? Just like in other series? HOLY SHIT! SHOCKING!

#6 wingwalker

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:24

Originally posted by howardt
It will lead to : "Cars on the circuit at different speeds". I guess your view of the tyre-blanket ban is directly related to your view of this outcome. As a driver, it may very well increase risk of a mistake and risk of a collision. As a spectator, it's a good thing (different speeds i mean, not collisions).



C'mon. I don't remeber how much slower were slicks that they use to tests now (but these are different from 2009 tyres) but the speed difeerence was not that I think. (Although drivers were worried about it, true. But the 2009 tyre will need shorter time to become 'funtional') The "speed differential issue" was about cars going full on next to others that are nearly on a halt. About 70 seconds difference on that lap. It looks to me like drivers will simply have to face with the possibility of being overtaken on the outlap cause they won't be able to push without going off track. Deal with it, I say.

#7 Buttoneer

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:25

There is a solution; a return to the full race tyre.

#8 ensign14

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:33

Note to drivers: you're paid fuckloads of money to drive a car that's safer than a Ford Focus. So take a shut the **** up pill and drive. If you don't like a lack of tyre warmers, retire.

#9 MichaelPM

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:44

Last year with the McLarens down the end of the pit lane for extended lengths of time to start Q3 I am not so worried about tyres getting cold and them instantly flying off the track in the first lap. Slicks will ofcourse be harder to warm but its a driver skill.

#10 noikeee

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:49

My guess is this can be done without being so much unsafe, but Bridgestone hasn't got it right yet. Drivers might have been a bit defensive lately, but they're not idiots. At the moment they're pretty much the only ones who can give an informed opinion as they've tested it in Barcelona.

I' going to pull out a number out of my ass - IMO ideally you'd want a tyre that would be about 2 seconds per lap until it gets up to temperature. A bigger difference than that would really be dangerous. You have to consider that F1 cars these days are much much closer in performance, half the grid is within a second per lap. Drivers therefore would have an harder time adjusting to huge speed differences. Back then in the 80s and earlier, when there were no tyre warmers, the differences between cars were much bigger, drivers had to deal with it constantly and therefore were more used to it.

#11 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:54

Is there a series other than F1 that uses tyre warmers?

#12 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 09:56

Originally posted by paranoik0
My guess is this can be done without being so much unsafe, but Bridgestone hasn't got it right yet. Drivers might have been a bit defensive lately, but they're not idiots. At the moment they're pretty much the only ones who can give an informed opinion as they've tested it in Barcelona.

I' going to pull out a number out of my ass - IMO ideally you'd want a tyre that would be about 2 seconds per lap until it gets up to temperature. A bigger difference than that would really be dangerous. You have to consider that F1 cars these days are much much closer in performance, half the grid is within a second per lap. Drivers therefore would have an harder time adjusting to huge speed differences. Back then in the 80s and earlier, when there were no tyre warmers, the differences between cars were much bigger, drivers had to deal with it constantly and therefore were more used to it.


What's the difference in lap time between the fastest car and the slowest car at the moment anyway? more than 2 secs a lap?

#13 Orin

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:04

Originally posted by Buttoneer
Sadly I have to confess that I agree with Ross and that the added risk of falling off the track and having to defend hard for a lap or two is quite an exciting prospect.


:up:

If they insist on pitstops to liven up the show, at least they can make them exciting. I suspect it's not quite a dangerous as the drivers are making out, certainly nothing like Heidfeld encountering half the pack crawling along at the end of qualifying in Bahrain. Weren't the drivers recently moaning about the dangers of withdrawing TC?

#14 Torch

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:04

One other point that makes me in favour of this is that the better drivers will be able to get their temperatures up quicker by pushing harder earlier.

Raising the importance of a driver is a good thing.

I have vague recollections of a race a few years back where Alonso was able to get on the pace quicker than his competitors making up valuable time (was this a wet race :confused: )

#15 noikeee

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:08

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever


What's the difference in lap time between the fastest car and the slowest car at the moment anyway? more than 2 secs a lap?


I think about 2 secs per lap between a Ferrari and a Force India, a bit more between a Ferrari and an Aguri.

But notice cars are already much slower when they come out of a pitstop due to being heavier on fuel, now add 2 seconds on top of it, and place that car ahead of a light car with hot tyres...

#16 Buttoneer

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:09

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
Is there a series other than F1 that uses tyre warmers?

I think there is. There was a story a couple of years ago about the manufacturer of a tyre 'oven' trying to get business in the F1 paddock and that Super Aguri tried to get them past the scrutineers. I'll have a look for that story but I'm sure that the point made was that they had been in use and proven in other series.

Edit: I can't find anything at all, but there is a reference I found on a super aguri discussion board about the banned tyre warmers being light-based. Simple Halogen or Infra-red technology. No link to a specific story but I'm not making it up - honest...

#17 bogi

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:10

Without tyre warmers it's hard to simulate team orders ''first driver exits from pits just 0,1 sec faster than second driver who in full power comes from straight'', without tyre warmers it's very hard to maintain race position :stoned:

#18 glorius&victorius

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 10:52

Originally posted by howardt
It will lead to : "Cars on the circuit at different speeds". I guess your view of the tyre-blanket ban is directly related to your view of this outcome. As a driver, it may very well increase risk of a mistake and risk of a collision. As a spectator, it's a good thing (different speeds i mean, not collisions).


Today's F1 drivers have become such a poopers... different speeds, and so what? The cars have brakes dont they?

I would love to see a lesser car with hot rubber trying to overtake top car with cold rubber... especially if they are on different strategies.

#19 Orin

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:05

Originally posted by glorius&victorius


Today's F1 drivers have become such a poopers... different speeds, and so what? The cars have brakes dont they?

I would love to see a lesser car with hot rubber trying to overtake top car with cold rubber... especially if they are on different strategies.


Or two cars exiting the pits together on cold tyres and fighting for position + grip, should be great. :up:

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#20 as65p

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:05

Originally posted by Torch
One other point that makes me in favour of this is that the better drivers will be able to get their temperatures up quicker by pushing harder earlier.

Raising the importance of a driver is a good thing.

I have vague recollections of a race a few years back where Alonso was able to get on the pace quicker than his competitors making up valuable time (was this a wet race :confused: )


Maybe you mean Hungary '06, but that was AFAIK more because he started on slightly used tyres which were somehow better suited to the conditions than fresh ones. Ironically, he was caught out by the same characteristic in Shanghai later that year when he couldn't get his new tyres to work after the pit-stop.

On your first paragraph: reason to once again regret the departure of Montoya... getting up to speed on cold tyres was one of his strongest points, I think.

#21 Fatgadget

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:21

Yep.Bring back no tyre warmers.That will really show those that can drive through the seat of their pants and keep it on the island! :clap:

#22 mursuka80

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:26

what a bunch of pussy`s! no tyre warmers=more incidents :up: Do they use warmers in IRL?

#23 Perigee

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:29

Yes, to me it sounds more exciting and adds an extra element to have no tyre warmers. But if it really is a safety issue - and there seem to be multiple voices raising this concern now - then perhaps the drivers views should be considered.

#24 StefanV

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:37

I miss the times without tire warmers, when the driver ho came out a tenth too late had half a lap or so to overtake. Exciting stuff. Problem with cold tires are that they are very unpredictable, you can get almost a "aquaplaning" effect sometimes. When that happens, the drivers skill does not mean much. So the trick is to stay below that rather sharp limit and that is not so easy if your competitor is polishing your gear box.

The solutions are many and simple
-Don't change tires
-It is a single tire manufacturer series - make tires that is less sensitive.

Of course, they will stick with with the tire warmers. I so wish that F1 went away from the sprint sessions it consists of now.

#25 Fatgadget

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 11:51

Originally posted by StefanV
Exciting stuff. Problem with cold tires are that they are very unpredictable, you can get almost a "aquaplaning" effect sometimes. When that happens, the drivers skill does not mean much. So the trick is to stay below that rather sharp limit and that is not so easy if your competitor is polishing your gear box.
.


Well,Mr Bridgestone should then develop a tyre that is progressive,no? I am sure tyre technology has developed leaps and bounds since those bad old days when tyres were made out of natural rubber !

#26 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:05

Originally posted by paranoik0


I think about 2 secs per lap between a Ferrari and a Force India, a bit more between a Ferrari and an Aguri.

But notice cars are already much slower when they come out of a pitstop due to being heavier on fuel, now add 2 seconds on top of it, and place that car ahead of a light car with hot tyres...


imo the teams and driver are just being their usual selves and fighting anything that might upset the status quo.

http://f1.autosport....7&submit=Submit

2 secs over a lap isn't that big an issue really, in Bahrain Davidson was almost 4 secs a lap slower than Massa, the 2 sec delay in outlap pace is just an element to factor into the strategy, its hardly dangerous.



#27 jonpollak

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:27

Originally posted by Perigee
But if it really is a safety issue - and there seem to be multiple voices raising this concern now - then perhaps the drivers views should be considered.


Multiple pussys...
Schumi too
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/66683

Jp

#28 FrankB

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:28

Away from F1, it's not unusual to have cars racing in different classes running at very different speeds throughout a race, not just for one or two laps after a pitstop. Drivers in those races seem to cope, and I am not just thinking about a local club meeting where almost anything can be entered to fill the grid. I recall an interview with Derek Bell where he said how frightening it could be driving down Mulsanne at around 250 mph in the dark and catching up with slower cars that were 'only' doing 150 mph.

#29 StefanV

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:32

Originally posted by Fatgadget


Well,Mr Bridgestone should then develop a tyre that is progressive,no? I am sure tyre technology has developed leaps and bounds since those bad old days when tyres were made out of natural rubber !

That was what I suggested in the part of the quote that you deleted.

#30 Buttoneer

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 12:37

Originally posted by FrankB
Away from F1, it's not unusual to have cars racing in different classes running at very different speeds throughout a race, not just for one or two laps after a pitstop. Drivers in those races seem to cope, and I am not just thinking about a local club meeting where almost anything can be entered to fill the grid. I recall an interview with Derek Bell where he said how frightening it could be driving down Mulsanne at around 250 mph in the dark and catching up with slower cars that were 'only' doing 150 mph.

Excellent, excellent post. And many here would decry these drivers as somehow lesser than F1 drivers too.

#31 noikeee

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 13:18

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
2 secs over a lap isn't that big an issue really, in Bahrain Davidson was almost 4 secs a lap slower than Massa, the 2 sec delay in outlap pace is just an element to factor into the strategy, its hardly dangerous.


Well, 2 secs seems fine to me, I was just wondering where the limit of "dangerous" really is, I'd say it's beyond 2 secs.

But FrankB raises a good point. The thing is, that's Le Mans, F1 nowadays is meant to be uber-ultra-mega-safe, things that are acceptable in other classes aren't seen as acceptable here. They're basically always trying to minimise all risks here.

#32 Fatgadget

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 13:31

Originally posted by StefanV

That was what I suggested in the part of the quote that you deleted.

:blush: :blush:

#33 howardt

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 13:35

Originally posted by FrankB
Away from F1, it's not unusual to have cars racing in different classes running at very different speeds throughout a race, not just for one or two laps after a pitstop. Drivers in those races seem to cope, and I am not just thinking about a local club meeting where almost anything can be entered to fill the grid. I recall an interview with Derek Bell where he said how frightening it could be driving down Mulsanne at around 250 mph in the dark and catching up with slower cars that were 'only' doing 150 mph.


Good point. The nurburgring 24hrs race has a pretty open entry list (and so many entrants that they use 3 separate starting points around the circuit) - as I understand it anything from LeMans racers to sporty roadcars can take part. They will have potential closing speeds of over 100mph, in the dark on a narrow circuit with few gravel traps and a lot of trees. Sort of puts the speed differential for cold tyres in F1 into perspective.

#34 lukywill

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 13:39

yeah. blankets are short.

it does not cover racing at all.

why not a new michelin tire who actually races with blankets?

what about 'extreme' temperatures in the 39º air? cold blankets. what a chill?!

#35 Buttoneer

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 13:47

Originally posted by lukywill
yeah. blankets are short.

it does not cover racing at all.

why not a new michelin tire who actually races with blankets?

what about 'extreme' temperatures in the 39º air? cold blankets. what a chill?!

F1 Haikku. Nice!

#36 Dragonfly

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:09

Drivers are heating?

hey, FIA, why not introduce a Driver Heat Energy Recovery System (DHERS) that will go to warm the tires
:smoking:

#37 Josta

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:23

All they have to do is treat the rubber with petrol. Wheel spin away, and hey presto hot tyres. :)

#38 as65p

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 16:10

Originally posted by Josta
All they have to do is treat the rubber with petrol. Wheel spin away, and hey presto hot tyres. :)



:lol:

And what a sight it would be! Plus, for the 1st time in history a driver could actually win the race in the first corner (because it would be over by the second).

:)

#39 Ferrim

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 16:16

Originally posted by MichaelPM
Last year with the McLarens down the end of the pit lane for extended lengths of time to start Q3 I am not so worried about tyres getting cold and them instantly flying off the track in the first lap.


That's a very, very, veeeeeeeeery good point. They expended more than a minute sometimes.

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#40 Ogami musashi

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 16:45

2 seconds????i've seen 10 seconds a lap in fact.

By the way, don't compare IRL, champ car or whatever you want, the speed differential is proportional to the tyre's grip.

The more grip from the tyre, the narrower the temperature operating window (thus the bigger the speed differential).

Now compare thoses slicks, that with 1250kg(maximum) of downforce bring better lap times with the slicks on a champ car DP01 with two times the downforce (2500kg a 300km/H), and try to imagine the level of grip the new F1 slicks provide.

my opinion is then it depends on how much is the speed differential, if it's really 10sec/lap, it is 216km/h average vs 236 here at barcelona.

#41 Atreiu

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 16:55

It would also be an exciting prospect if they could only race with one rear view mirror, wouldn't it?
I even think there was a time in which no rear view mirrors were used, so taking only one off has got to be a good thing. Only the pussies will decline the challenge.

#42 noikeee

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 17:01

Originally posted by Ogami musashi
2 seconds????i've seen 10 seconds a lap in fact.

By the way, don't compare IRL, champ car or whatever you want, the speed differential is proportional to the tyre's grip.

The more grip from the tyre, the narrower the temperature operating window (thus the bigger the speed differential).

Now compare thoses slicks, that with 1250kg(maximum) of downforce bring better lap times with the slicks on a champ car DP01 with two times the downforce (2500kg a 300km/H), and try to imagine the level of grip the new F1 slicks provide.

my opinion is then it depends on how much is the speed differential, if it's really 10sec/lap, it is 216km/h average vs 236 here at barcelona.


Wow. 10 sec is a lot... if that's really how slow they are out of the pits now, no wonder drivers are against it. It's too much...

#43 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 17:46

Surely the level of grip is going to affect the cornering speeds most not the straight line speeds. if the lap time is x% slower that wont automatically translate to x% slower on the straight.

#44 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 18:41

I don't get Schumacher these days, he's making comments that show he was never the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Tire warmers are only needed if everyone else uses them. If no one uses them, level playing field.

MS has also made some weird comments about Massa's ability to drive a non-TC car, which is ironic from Schumi, since most of his car control was steering wheel button-mediated for most of his wins.

God forbid we see some need for driving talent in F1 -where will all the "juniors" and Satos go?

#45 Jacquesback

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:36

Originally posted by Villes Gilleneuve
I don't get Schumacher these days, he's making comments that show he was never the sharpest knife in the drawer.
Tire warmers are only needed if everyone else uses them. If no one uses them, level playing field.

MS has also made some weird comments about Massa's ability to drive a non-TC car, which is ironic from Schumi, since most of his car control was steering wheel button-mediated for most of his wins.

God forbid we see some need for driving talent in F1 -where will all the "juniors" and Satos go?


:up:

#46 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:43

10 seconds? :lol:

#47 Risil

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:52

Guess they'll have to design some new tyres then. Bridgestone thought they were getting it easy after they bought their way into a control tyre tender. :lol:

#48 Atreiu

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:59

Originally posted by Villes Gilleneuve

(...)Tire warmers are only needed if everyone else uses them. If no one uses them, level playing field.(..)


Level playing field has absolutely nothing to do with it. The issue at hand is driver A coming out of the pits with 50kgs of fuel and stone cold tyres which simply deliver very little grip until they're heated.



Imagine someone trying slicks during a race at a damp Spa. The first corner he faces is nothing less than Eau Rouge. His options are to either crawl through it in order to not crash, or be brave, go at full speed and crash at one of the fastest corners of all. Even if he decides to crawl through it 20km/h slower than he normally would, what will happen to the fool on heated tyres and a lighter car who decides to overtake him on the outside because he's on a hot lap before he pits???? Or do you think he'll sit behind and lose a couple of seconds at least in the name of safety?

If not Spa, it can happen at Montreal or any nice street circuit with close walls and people fighting for postions while others struggle to get their tyres to temperature. 2009 will also have more street circuits beckoning for someone to crash on cold tyres...

#49 noikeee

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 20:03

Originally posted by Gilles4Ever
Surely the level of grip is going to affect the cornering speeds most not the straight line speeds. if the lap time is x% slower that wont automatically translate to x% slower on the straight.


The corners are much more dangerous than the straights. I think the straights are full acceleration regardless of how cold the tyres are (well, it can be dangerous if everyone starts zig-zagging, I guess). Now, if the car ahead of you brakes 50 metres earlier than usual in order to make the corner...

#50 Jacquesback

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 20:03

Originally posted by Atreiu
Imagine someone trying slicks during a race at a damp Spa. The first corner he faces is nothing less than Eau Rouge. His options are to either crawl through it in order to not crash, or be brave, go at full speed and crash at one of the fastest corners of all. Even if he decides to crawl through it 20km/h slower than he normally would, what will happen to the fool on heated tyres and a lighter car who decides to overtake him on the outside because he's on a hot lap before he pits???? Or do you think he'll sit behind and lose a couple of seconds at least in the name of safety?

If not Spa, it can happen at Montreal or any nice street circuit with close walls and people fighting for postions while others struggle to get their tyres to temperature. 2009 will also have more street circuits beckoning for someone to crash on cold tyres...


Then maybe they'll be less pitstops. That would be a good thing.