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Long Beach 2008 ? The Panoz DP01?s Last Harrah!


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#1 EDJE

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 14:29

Or ... hourrah!

Or ... Hurrah! (ht: Jp)

After a little over one year of service, North American open-wheel racing’s ChampCar World Series racing platform, the Panoz manufactured DP01 will see its last competition this coming weekend.

The 34th Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach will be run through the streets and down Shoreline Drive featuring the DP01 and scored through Indy Racing League 2008 Championship points due to unification.

By any measure, the Panoz DP01 was a success in its maiden, and as it turns out – last, year. A beautiful and functional design … from the smooth wishbone front wing mount to the rear sidepod airflow escape louvers, a stable platform from the words “Green!-Green!-Green!”

In the initial test of the chassis back at the end of August, 2006, the car spent testing week in the capable hands of two-time Champ Car race-winner Roberto Moreno. Roberto piloted the new machine through every lap of the more than 600 miles in searing 90 degree conditions of the week despite not having been in a Champ Car since 2003. The DP01 Sebring test team included engineers from Champ Car, Cosworth, Pi Research and Elan Motorsports along with Hewland and Performance Friction Brakes.

"It was nice to be back in a Champ Car and nice to have that kind of power at your fingertips again," stated Moreno at the time of the initial tests at Sebring International Raceway. "I couldn't be happier with this car. The new aero package is really nice and I think it will be great for the guys once the teams get ahold of it. We are really sticking well in the mid-speed corners and the car is really balanced well aerodynamically and we haven't even thrown anything at it from a standpoint of trying to gain mechanical grip. I think that the team has done a great job with this car."

The Panoz DP01 was developed to be safer, and less aero-dependent while racing closely with other cars. The new model had numerous changes from the previous Lola car, including more downforce from the underbody. Approximately 60% of the car's 5,500 lb (2,500 kg) of downforce at 200 mph (320 km/h) will come from the bottom of the car. This is done by directing the air in a way to create downforce on the car, by sucking it to the racetrack. This will put less dependency on the front and rear wings in the event of a failure at high speed.

Some believe that the Panoz DP01 is a better chassis than the IRL standard Dallara (if not just newer) but both chassis lack meeting cockpit measurement standards set out by the FIA Institute. It is the intention of the IRL that the next generation of chassis employed (and hopefully introduced by the 2010 season) will conform to an international standard in design safety.

If the cockpit of the Panoz DP01 was FIA compliant, it still would be doubtful that an Indy Racing League operation would allow that much of a merge-ing to take place within the series. Even though the DP01 was designed to fit with the IRL specified Honda engine, and the dimensions are roughly equal enough to run with the current and older Dallara chassis, this chassis is a “ChampCar” chassis and thereby does not fit in the management scheme of things.

All hail the last running of the Panoz DP01!

… notes from The EDJE

ChampCar Panoz DP01 and the IndyCar Dallara Side By Side Comparison Here >>

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#2 lukywill

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 14:34

it´s hourrah.

#3 jonpollak

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 14:39

As if you'd know :stoned:

Harrah's is a Casino
Hourrah...is a Turkish Jew

Hurrah... is what we are looking for

Jp

#4 lukywill

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 14:48

:p
http://www.bd-nostal.../hurrah_001.jpg

#5 SKL

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:09

When I first read the Autoweek side by side comparison it surprised me how similiar they really are, except the Panoz IMHO looks 1000% better. I just wish they'd let them run together either with the Honda engine in the Panoz or with a turbo boost setting for equality... I mean, Tony still won the war...

#6 Risil

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:18

Would the DP01 have been capable of running competitively and safely on an oval?

#7 EDJE

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:18

Originally posted by jonpollak
As if you'd know :stoned:

Harrah's is a Casino
Hourrah...is a Turkish Jew

Hurrah... is what we are looking for

Jp


Of course, one could always say that ChampCar and the DP01 was ... always a gamble.

#8 EDJE

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:26

Originally posted by Risil
Would the DP01 have been capable of running competitively and safely on an oval?


Yes, actually.

Some have suggested that until the new chassis is introduced that the IRL run Dallara's on ovals and the DP01's on road/street circuits.

That would create too much confusion and become a logistics nightmare.

Now that it appears the parts restriction to the T-Teams seems to have subsided, the Dallara's will do until the "fleet upgrade".

#9 pacificquay

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 15:52

Do stop this "some believe" and "some have suggested" nonsense.

Either tell us what you personally think - it is a forum after all - or say who the "some" are.

But to hide your opinions behind mystery "some people" is just weak.

#10 ColdHeart

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 16:01

Originally posted by Risil
Would the DP01 have been capable of running competitively and safely on an oval?


Nobody knows. Supposedly the car was designed with 'ovals in mind' but no oval kit was ever produced, no DP01 ever made it on an oval, at least publicly. There have been rumors that a DP01 or two ran some shakedown laps in secret but that is unsubstantiated.

And this 'successful by any measure' stuff is a load of manure. The car suffered numerous issues: It was well through the first season before the cars could be refilled, the onboard starters never worked and were removed, the shifting caused nightmares for a while, there were some mysterious low-speed back injuries - but in the end, it's just a car.

And it will be gone. You're never going to see this thing on ovals, especially at Indy because it can't work. In its current form with the turbo Cosworth, it would be way too fast - the insurance guys have told the Indianapolis Motor Speedway not to exceed 220-224 and the current cars are right at that limit. Add 100 hp and they'd be well over it. Yes, you could reconfigure the DP01 to take the ICS NA Honda - but why bother?

The ICS is going to get a new car in 2010. It won't be the DP01.

#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 16:53

I didn't like the look of the DP01 from day 1, it looked too spec to me. It worked with a few paintjobs, but otherwise liked the champ cars at the turn of the decade. And don't tell me you liked the Lola, everyone thought it was a monster when it first came out, we only got used to it.

#12 saudoso

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 17:03

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
And don't tell me you liked the Lola, everyone thought it was a monster when it first came out, we only got used to it.


I didn't. That thing is hideous.

#13 EDJE

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 17:09

Originally posted by pacificquay
Do stop this "some believe" and "some have suggested" nonsense.

Either tell us what you personally think - it is a forum after all - or say who the "some" are.

But to hide your opinions behind mystery "some people" is just weak.


Just a reference to a suggestion I had read from an informative source - just speculation.

My view is clear, the DP01 worked extremely well for what it was designed to do and it is not the car the Indy Racing League will adopt for the future.

At the very least, the next chassis is expected to take account of the FIA Institute's suggested regulations for cockpit design so that the IRL will be in line with an international standard. I speculate that the thinking here is to bring down the barriers of argument so that a greater level of international recognition could take place.

Oh, and I liked the look, from the wishbone attachment of the front wing to the louvered air duct escape on the back of the sidepods.

All hail the final running of the DP01 at Long Beach.

#14 Nathan

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 18:34

How will this hit Panoz's bottom line?

#15 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 18:43

I'm not sure it will. They've already sold the cars to the teams. It's Carl Haas who had the spare parts business that now has a bunch of spares and no customers. He'd better hope the Panoz used in SuperLeague uses the same basic running gear underneath.

#16 Ali_G

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:10

i actually rathered the Lola.

Why oh why did Champcar have to go with a high nose ?

#17 IOU 16

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:21

I like to personally thank Tony George for killing open wheel racing and as well as being present at the last Long Beach Grand Prix. Section 18 has a hello present for you.


Sad day, second to the sell out by Penguin Man (Kalkhoven), and his cohorts.

Nat, unless Panoz banked everything on the DP-01 and it's sucessors as a Champ Car race car for the next 20 years, and bought all new equipment, I doubt they really will suffer too much. The have the Superleague DP-02 cars to build (which are pretty much the DP-01 with an airbox).

#18 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:27

Originally posted by Ali_G
i actually rathered the Lola.

Why oh why did Champcar have to go with a high nose ?


Because it's faster.

#19 IOU 16

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:42

More downforce for street racing?

Looks better?

Still faster than the crapwagon running at Motegi that following night.

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#20 ColdHeart

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 19:59

If you're going to make an irrational slam, at least get out your calendar.

IndyCars run at Motegi tomorrow night.

#21 ColdHeart

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 20:08

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I'm not sure it will. They've already sold the cars to the teams. It's Carl Haas who had the spare parts business that now has a bunch of spares and no customers. He'd better hope the Panoz used in SuperLeague uses the same basic running gear underneath.


The SL DP09 shares no common parts with the DP01.

Panoz settled with CC during the bankruptcy hearings and got paid $1.5 million. No word on what settlement, if any, was reached with Haas. Last I knew he was one of many 'unsecured creditors' to CCWS.

#22 IOU 16

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 22:03

Originally posted by ColdHeart
If you're going to make an irrational slam, at least get out your calendar.

IndyCars run at Motegi tomorrow night.


http://www.indycar.c...ule/?event_id=8

Well, I think I am right and your wrong on the date. Today is April 17th where I am buddy. The League runs at Motegi on the 19th. Tomorrow is the 18th. Huh?


Um, guess you didn't understand what I said.



Sorry for going off topic. I hope every racnig fan watches this last race with turbos and fast cars, as I do not expect them to return.

#23 mapguy

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 22:12

Originally posted by Jim Wilke


there were some mysterious low-speed back injuries - but in the end, it's just a car.


More crap. How many 'mysterious low-speed back injuries' were there Jim? One? Not so mysterious either. PT at Long Beach where it was a hit were the car went down and bounced off of the ground. Not a typical accident like the ones that sent numerous IRL drivers to the hospital with back injuries. One minor freak back injury and Wilke is making it sound like the DP-01 is dangerous. Care to comment on the IRL cars (both G-Force/Panox and Dallara) design flaws which led to the naming of IRL cars "Formula Neck-Snap"?

#24 CWeil

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 22:13

Originally posted by IOU 16
I like to personally thank Tony George for killing open wheel racing and as well as being present at the last Long Beach Grand Prix. Section 18 has a hello present for you.


Sad day, second to the sell out by Penguin Man (Kalkhoven), and his cohorts.

Nat, unless Panoz banked everything on the DP-01 and it's sucessors as a Champ Car race car for the next 20 years, and bought all new equipment, I doubt they really will suffer too much. The have the Superleague DP-02 cars to build (which are pretty much the DP-01 with an airbox).


Get over it and just watch the racing. No amount of bitterness will change anything.

(For the record, Indycars are not much different from Champ Cars speed-wise, so calling them fast because they have turbos doesn't mean much.)

#25 ColdHeart

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 22:22

Originally posted by mapguy


More crap. How many 'mysterious low-speed back injuries' were there


Three: Tracy, Figge and Jani all missed races.

#26 IOU 16

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 22:29

Originally posted by ColdHeart


Three: Tracy, Figge and Jani all missed races.



When was this? Hmmm... I recall he made every race. Gommendy got hurt in a freak accident of skipping over the a drainage access at Cleveland and took out another. But Jani never missed a race.

#27 ColdHeart

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 22:36

You are correct, it was Gommendy and not Jani.

But the point still stands - there were 3 "freak accidents" at low speeds that resulted in back injuries.

This has nothing to do with the IRL or Tony George or mahogany picture frames.

#28 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 00:01

Originally posted by ColdHeart
You are correct, it was Gommendy and not Jani.

But the point still stands - there were 3 "freak accidents" at low speeds that resulted in back injuries.

This has nothing to do with the IRL or Tony George or mahogany picture frames.

Yup, pretty much right on there Jim, they were freak accidents. OTOH, nothing freak about the irl cars flying all over with the barn door wing package they run, and hence the multitude of injuries in the short life of the irl.

#29 fer312t

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 00:48

All I know is that the next Indycar chassis should be quite a bit quicker than the dallara/honda...
Beating ALMS sportcars by only a few 10ths is not enough for top series open wheel car.

#30 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 01:28

Originally posted by fer312t
All I know is that the next Indycar chassis should be quite a bit quicker than the dallara/honda...
Beating ALMS sportcars by only a few 10ths is not enough for top series open wheel car.


According to Cold Heart, due to FTG being owned by the insurance companies, USOW is now regulated to nothing over 220 at IMS. Seeing as it is now IMS uber alles I suppose we can expect even slower cars for the 2010 spec.

#31 McGuire

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 02:00

Originally posted by fer312t
All I know is that the next Indycar chassis should be quite a bit quicker than the dallara/honda...
Beating ALMS sportcars by only a few 10ths is not enough for top series open wheel car.


There is no particular reason to make the new cars any quicker. It won't make the racing any better or look faster. Actually, the Dallara is only a tick slower at the same tracks the Champ cars ran on -- for example Mid-Ohio and St. Pete. It's not enough for me to be able to know the difference without a stopwatch, and I have seen as much champ car and Indy car racing as anyone.

Any package for 2010 with must be suitable for Indy. If not, that proposal goes nowhere. That means a car that can be held to lap speeds under 230 mph or so. The current car will do 226 with around 670 hp, so you are not going to see a whole lot more power than that in a package that is much like the current one.

#32 917k

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 02:06

Is there a point to two concurrent LBGP threads?

And, is there a point to keeping the split hatred going? Last I heard it was over, but some want to be the Japanese soldier, stranded on the island, fighting the good fight, I guess.

#33 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 02:46

Originally posted by McGuire
Any package for 2010 with must be suitable for Indy. If not, that proposal goes nowhere.

And suitable for Texas, and suitable for banging off walls at 220.
We can soon expect a formula that is only suitable for indy and handles like an M-1 tank on Roadcourses and Streets.
Oh, and have an engine of about 1 and a half litres and runs on corn juice.
Yee Hah
:love:
errrrr...


:yawn:

#34 Risil

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 10:26

Originally posted by 917k
Is there a point to two concurrent LBGP threads?


Well, that's what the sponsors said. They want everything to be thrown in with the Long Beach Grand Prix 2008 thread, but this more modern, up-to-date version retains many of the established Stars and Cars of the BB, including whitewaterMkII, Ross Stonefield, and Lukywill. The straightforward Long Beach Grand Prix 2008 thread, without any such modern angles and conceits, seeks to return BB discussion to a simpler time, when the cost of understanding and participating in an argument was lower, without the prohibitive need for technical or insider knowledge. Thread starter jonpollak also hoped for posters to graduate from Midget and Sprint Cars to engage themselves in this higher-end discourse. And of course, he did have the advantage of titling the thread by the most obvious, world-renowned name for 2008 Long Beach Grand Prix threads.

Of course, ultimately all was immaterial, as this thread grinds to a halt amongst infighting and unviability, and luminaries such as EDJE and Ross Stonefield defect to its initially sneered-upon rival. :)

#35 Dudley

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 13:32

Originally posted by Risil


Well, that's what the sponsors said. They want everything to be thrown in with the Long Beach Grand Prix 2008 thread, but this more modern, up-to-date version retains many of the established Stars and Cars of the BB, including whitewaterMkII, Ross Stonefield, and Lukywill. The straightforward Long Beach Grand Prix 2008 thread, without any such modern angles and conceits, seeks to return BB discussion to a simpler time, when the cost of understanding and participating in an argument was lower, without the prohibitive need for technical or insider knowledge. Thread starter jonpollak also hoped for posters to graduate from Midget and Sprint Cars to engage themselves in this higher-end discourse. And of course, he did have the advantage of titling the thread by the most obvious, world-renowned name for 2008 Long Beach Grand Prix threads.

Of course, ultimately all was immaterial, as this thread grinds to a halt amongst infighting and unviability, and luminaries such as EDJE and Ross Stonefield defect to its initially sneered-upon rival. :)


:love:

#36 jonpollak

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 13:51

That's hysterical Risil... :clap:
Am I now being perceived as the Tony George of the thread starters?....Oi Vay :lol:

Originally posted by Risil
Thread starter jonpollak also hoped for posters to graduate from Midget and Sprint Cars to engage themselves in this higher-end discourse.

Yeah..like that was EVER gonna happen :


Actually the real reason I started the thread was totally self serving.
I wanted to know if it was on TV in Europe.....It isn't

But I still get to watch it live and so will y'all


Jp

#37 EDJE

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:24

Originally posted by Risil

Of course, ultimately all was immaterial, as this thread grinds to a halt amongst infighting and unviability, and luminaries such as EDJE and Ross Stonefield defect to its initially sneered-upon rival. :)


I am not that big a simpleton as to defect from such a fine crowd of ladies and gentlemen. I'm new here and you all have taught me duck, cover, but mostly listen!

Yesterday, I also had the chance occasion talk with Graham Rahal while he was out inspecting the track with the NHL engineers (turn eight rumblestrips). He is excited about the prospect that if he wins the LBGP and Kanaan and the other top placers don’t win … a T-Team driver will take the points lead on the third race weekend of the 2008 season.

THAT is hot!

Oh, and he confirmed that there was an availability of parts issue for the T-Teams and Dallara's as it relates not to the road set-up but to the oval package.

#38 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:30

You'd have to have some pretty strange results at Motegi for Rahal to lead the points Monday morning, at which point it would demonstrate nothing more than something bizarre going on in Japan.

#39 917k

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:31

Originally posted by EDJE


I am not that big a simpleton as to defect from such a fine crowd of ladies and gentlemen. I'm new here and you all have taught me duck, cover, but mostly listen!

Yesterday, I also had the chance occasion talk with Graham Rahal while he was out inspecting the track with the NHL engineers (turn eight rumblestrips). He is excited about the prospect that if he wins the LBGP and Kanaan and the other top placers don’t win … a T-Team driver will take the points lead on the third race weekend of the 2008 season.

THAT is hot!

Oh, and he confirmed that there was an availability of parts issue for the T-Teams and Dallara's as it relates not to the road set-up but to the oval package.



You gotta be Bobby Rahal, you have defended / talked up / otherwise deified this kid since you got here. Way to keep the conspiracy theories rolling, though, and trying to keep the split alive.

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#40 EDJE

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:38

Originally posted by 917k



You gotta be Bobby Rahal, you have defended / talked up / otherwise deified this kid since you got here. Way to keep the conspiracy theories rolling, though, and trying to keep the split alive.


When I get the chip in my camara downloaded, post the two question interview, I will be kind enough to allow the answers speak for themselves.

YouTube Here -

I'm just a guy with a camera and a Press Pass ... I could only dream of being Bobby Rahal and having to catch a private jet from Japan to Long Beach so that I could watch my son compete in cars drivers just LOVE to drive.

The math might be a bit contorted, but one has to admire the attitude of a TALL, talented, and well placed T-Team 19 year old.

#41 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:39

Dude, all racing drivers love driving all racing cars. Polemic is so 1996.

#42 shaggy

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:44

Would it make any sense for Atlantics to buy the DP01 ? It would increase the horsepower they have now and, maybe, increase its appeal. Isn't Atlantics associated with ALMS now ?

shaggy

#43 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:48

No. There's no need to upgrade and it'd put the budgets through the roof. If Champ Car can't get a consistently funded grid together, why would Atlantics?

#44 EDJE

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 14:50

Originally posted by shaggy
Would it make any sense for Atlantics to buy the DP01 ? It would increase the horsepower they have now and, maybe, increase its appeal. Isn't Atlantics associated with ALMS now ?

shaggy


Good point, there was buzz around the technical inspection truck in the paddock, those people seemed a little happy facing the possibility of being out of a job after the race.

I'll go ask some questions in the next couple of days and report back on anything that might pop-up.

Tracy's ride for the race was on the rack when I was there (got photos), the car was sporting a mostly dark blue livery with a white strip down the middle.

#45 ColdHeart

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 16:59

Originally posted by shaggy
Would it make any sense for Atlantics to buy the DP01 ? It would increase the horsepower they have now and, maybe, increase its appeal. Isn't Atlantics associated with ALMS now ?

shaggy


Atlantics run 300 hp - going to 750 hp isn't practical. There was a rumor floating around a few weeks ago that Kalkhoven had a buyer for the DP01s outside of the US. Also bear in mind that both KK and GF and partners signed non-competes so they can't buy the DP01s out of bankruptcy and set up a competing series. Atlantics, with their 300 hp, are not seen as competition and can do what they want. IRL/ICS didn't acquire that series as they already had their support series in IPS/Firestone Indy Lights with 450 hp.

#46 aportinga

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 17:26

Originally posted by 917k



You gotta be Bobby Rahal, you have defended / talked up / otherwise deified this kid since you got here. Way to keep the conspiracy theories rolling, though, and trying to keep the split alive.


Looks like everyone is holding their end of the bargan up.

I'm not going to like oval racing nor the Dallara until Danica gets bigger tits :up:

#47 aportinga

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 17:31

Originally posted by ColdHeart


Atlantics run 300 hp - going to 750 hp isn't practical. There was a rumor floating around a few weeks ago that Kalkhoven had a buyer for the DP01s outside of the US. Also bear in mind that both KK and GF and partners signed non-competes so they can't buy the DP01s out of bankruptcy and set up a competing series. Atlantics, with their 300 hp, are not seen as competition and can do what they want. IRL/ICS didn't acquire that series as they already had their support series in IPS/Firestone Indy Lights with 450 hp.


Who is to stop anyone from buying the DP01 and engines and running a handfull of races though?

We could run the old timers league like they did in Europe. Just think of it... Al Unser, Unser Jr, Mario, Rick Mears, Nigel Mansell all running around varous cancelled CC races in a more modern and faster car then the IRL....

:clap:

#48 PEW

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 18:17

Nice that Race Director is providing Free Coverage this weekend :up:

#49 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 18:36

Originally posted by ColdHeart


AtlAlso bear in mind that both KK and GF and partners signed non-competes so they can't buy the DP01s out of bankruptcy and set up a competing series.


Really?
Can you post the contract they signed, or is this just another fantasy of yours?
AFAIK, GF has nothing to do with the irl, so he can pretty much do whatever he wants.

#50 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 18:40

Originally posted by aportinga


Looks like everyone is holding their end of the bargan up.

I'm not going to like oval racing nor the Dallara until Danica gets bigger tits :up:




I'm not going to like it until the ugly ass Dallaras are relegated to the dust bin, and Danica's lack of talent, puts her on the sidelines and someone that can race gets that ride.
I'm waiting until the 2010 formula is announced as to whether I'll ever be interested again.