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Long Beach 2008 ? The Panoz DP01?s Last Harrah!


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#51 fer312t

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 18:41

There is no particular reason to make the new cars any quicker. It won't make the racing any better or look faster. Actually, the Dallara is only a tick slower at the same tracks the Champ cars ran on -- for example Mid-Ohio and St. Pete. It's not enough for me to be able to know the difference without a stopwatch, and I have seen as much champ car and Indy car racing as anyone.



I do not agree...for the series to have internation credability it must be quicker...a rung somewhere below formula 1. An open wheel car with comparable power should be significantly quicker than a P1 sportscar, and currently that is not the case...

I think the Dallaras look visually slow on the roadcourses...lumbering and unimpressive.
Of course there's great racing at all speeds, that is not the point (I love formula v's for God sakes), but this is supposed to be the top tier of American open wheel racing...

the insurance guys have told the Indianapolis Motor Speedway not to exceed 220-224 and the current cars are right at that limit.



Great to see the future of OWracing being dicatated by insurance men :rolleyes:

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#52 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 19:00

Hell it's why we have so many full course yellows on street courses. The insurance fellers have been dictating the state of play for a loooong time. Don't get antsy just because you learned about it now.

#53 ColdHeart

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 19:38

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Really?
Can you post the contract they signed, or is this just another fantasy of yours?
AFAIK, GF has nothing to do with the irl, so he can pretty much do whatever he wants.


Jesus, do some research once in while.

It has emerged that the Champ Car World Series has officially filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy, and has sought protection from its creditors. The filing, submitted in the US Bankruptcy Court in Indianapolis indicates that the Indy Racing League has paid Champ Car $10m for its intellectual property rights, a mobile medical facility, in addition to a non-compete agreement and a consulting deal for Champ Car co-owners Gerald Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven. The legal documentation suggest that Champ Car has assets of somewhere between $10m and $50m. The creditor with the largest claim is Cosworth, owned by Kalkhoven and Forsythe, which is owed $1.83m. PKV Racing, owned by Kalkhoven, is owed $645,883 and Forsythe Championship Racing is owed $327,961.

The running of the company will remain with the current staff although under Chapter 11 rules all decisions will have to be cleared by a court-appointed administrator. This arrangement will only continue until after the forthcoming Long Beach Grand Prix, the final race in the history of the series. After that the teams will either close down or switch to the Indy Racing League.

The creditors are due to meet on the day after the event and all assets will then be sold off and whatever debts can be paid will be paid.

The company did not file for Chapter 7 bankruptcy beecause it needed to keep operations going until after Long Beach. Chapter 7 would have meant liquidation of the assets. Chapter 11 means that, in theory at least, someone could buy the assets, restructure the company and continue to run it in the future.

It remains to be seen if there is a buyer, but there is little doubt that the bankruptcy presents an opportunity for someone to buy the equipment and set up a series. Competing against the IRL in the United States makes no sense but that does not mean that someone outside the US could not buy the equipment and create a successful series as there are many race tracks around the would which want topline single-seaters but cannot afford a Grand Prix.

Champ Car ahs been using a fleet of Panoz DP01 chassis, which were only introduced at the start of last year. These were fitted with the Cosworth XFE engine, designed to run at 17,000 rpm, but is limited for Champ Car to 12,000 rpm.


link

INDIANAPOLIS -- Attorneys representing parent companies for the Champ Car World Series filed Chapter 11 paperwork in United States Bankruptcy Court on Wednesday.


The open-wheel racing series is set to stage its final event on April 20 in Long Beach, Calif. Champ Car intends to continue in the management and possession of its business and property as a debtor-in-possession until assets can be sold to pay off creditors.

Champ Car World Series LLC estimated it carries debts of less than $10 million, topped by $1.825 million owed to engine manufacturer Cosworth Inc. Company assets are estimated at $10 million to $50 million.

The filings contain additional business details about the unification of American open-wheel racing under the Indy Racing League banner.

An affidavit from Gene Cottingham, vice president and chief financial officer for Champ Car World Series LLC, stated that the company's four-man board of managers "determined that it is no longer economically feasible to sustain an open-wheel series and that [Champ Car] did not have the funds to operate the series in 2008."

The board of managers comprises Kevin Kalkhoven, Gerald Forsythe, Paul Gentilozzi and Dan Pettit. Champ Car's majority owners are Kalkhoven (through a company called 21st Century Racing Holdings LLC) and Forsythe (and his company Willis Capital LLC).

Cottingham further noted that Champ Car determined " ... it is in the best interests of the sport of open-wheel racing in general to sell certain assets to the IRL and to unify the sport of Indy-style open-wheel racing under the IRL, all before the start of the 2008 season."

The affidavit revealed that the Champ Car board of managers authorized the decision to file for bankruptcy on Feb. 14, exactly one week before Kalkhoven and Forsythe executed a "Memorandum of Understanding." The memorandum directs Champ Car to assign race sanctioning contracts and sell substantially all of its intellectual property and other intangible assets, as well as the Champ Car Mobile Medical Unit, to the IRL for $6 million.

The memorandum includes a non-compete covenant for Forsythe and Kalkhoven, who are each slated to receive an additional $2 million, provided they pay certain expenses associated with the promotion and operation of this year's Long Beach race; and show commitment and support of the IRL.

The agreement also calls for the long-term preservation of the Long Beach race, which is managed by a holding company owned by Kalkhoven and Forsythe called Aquarium Holdings LLC. The cost of staging this year's Long Beach race will be shared by Champ Car, the IRL, and Kalkhoven and Forsythe.

The IRL has assumed responsibility for production and telecast costs for the Long Beach race, which is scheduled to be broadcast on ESPN2.

"The cooperative effort to stage the Champ Car finale will preserve the goodwill associated with the Long Beach race, and help to ensure that IRL can add Long Beach to its schedule beginning in 2009," stated Cottingham.

Coincidentally, Champ Car's four-year history started in the same branch of Federal Bankruptcy Court on Feb. 2, 2004, when Judge Frank J. Otte approved the sale of the assets of Championship Auto Racing Teams, Inc. to an ownership group formed by Kalkhoven and Forsythe.

Judge Anthony J. Metz III has been assigned to preside over Champ Car's current case.



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CART is dead. Champ Car is dead. Forsythe is not going to buy all the DP01s and start a new series. He's not going to elevate the Atlantics into a top-level series. It's over. Give up your seats at Long Beach and move on.

#54 ColdHeart

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 19:40

Originally posted by fer312t


I do not agree...for the series to have internation credability it must be quicker...a rung somewhere below formula 1. An open wheel car with comparable power should be significantly quicker than a P1 sportscar, and currently that is not the case...

I think the Dallaras look visually slow on the roadcourses...lumbering and unimpressive.
Of course there's great racing at all speeds, that is not the point (I love formula v's for God sakes), but this is supposed to be the top tier of American open wheel racing...



Great to see the future of OWracing being dicatated by insurance men :rolleyes:


Get used to it. If a car goes into the stands at a race ala Le Mans '57, racing will be over. That's why NASCAR uses restrictor plates, why the IRL/ICS mandates wing angles, why F-1 doesn't use banked corners any more.

#55 FLB

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 19:56

Originally posted by ColdHeart


Get used to it. If a car goes into the stands at a race ala Le Mans '57, racing will be over. That's why NASCAR uses restrictor plates, why the IRL/ICS mandates wing angles, why F-1 doesn't use banked corners any more.

Erm, you probaly mean Le Mans '55.

If Tony Renna's fatal accident had occured during the 500, it's very likely there would have been spectator injuries/fatalities. Parts of the car were found in the grandstands.

#56 jimm

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 20:07

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
I didn't like the look of the DP01 from day 1, it looked too spec to me. It worked with a few paintjobs, but otherwise liked the champ cars at the turn of the decade. And don't tell me you liked the Lola, everyone thought it was a monster when it first came out, we only got used to it.


You think the IRL cars look better? I think the IRL cars look like bad attempt by matchbox to make an F1 car.

#57 ColdHeart

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 20:07

If Tony Renna's fatal accident had occured during the 500, it's very likely there would have been spectator injuries/fatalities. Parts of the car were found in the grandstands.



Yes - which is one of the reasons why the power was dialed back that winter. Renna died in October of 2003. The pole speed for the '03 Indy 500 was 231.725. The next year it was 222.024.

#58 Burai

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 20:08

I never liked the DP01. It looked like an oversized F3 car. It's so boxy and unexciting.

I don't like the IRL Panoz either, but I don't subscribe to the school of thought that it's a dangerous car and that the DP01 is the safe solution. The fact of the matter is that if you have open wheel cars running in packs at high speed on ovals and they tangle, people are going to end up in the wall and fence. That is a fact of life. The only reason we never had any DP01 oval horror crashes is because it never had the chance to have any.

#59 shaggy

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 20:54

Originally posted by ColdHeart


Atlantics run 300 hp - going to 750 hp isn't practical. There was a rumor floating around a few weeks ago that Kalkhoven had a buyer for the DP01s outside of the US. Also bear in mind that both KK and GF and partners signed non-competes so they can't buy the DP01s out of bankruptcy and set up a competing series. Atlantics, with their 300 hp, are not seen as competition and can do what they want. IRL/ICS didn't acquire that series as they already had their support series in IPS/Firestone Indy Lights with 450 hp.

I wasn't thinking of GF, since he had t sign that noncompettitve clause with the IRL, but I thought of Panoz and Vicky O'Connor. Wouldn't it be good for the two of them to join forces and present a better show that way ? The cost would go up, but it would still be lower than Indy or what it was in CC.
Otherwise, Atlantics is going the way of CC, right ?

shaggy

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#60 ColdHeart

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 22:06

Hard to see how the Atlantics teams could afford to run the DP01s and the kids that drive in that series aren't ready for 750 hp.

And I would bet that part of the deal with CC was that the DP01s could not be sold in the US to run a competing series. They will either go overseas or end up as show cars.

Things are going to get tough for Atlantics - there are, simply put, too many ladder-formula car series for all of them to survive. F-BMW, Star Mazda, Atlantics, Indy Lights, Skippy, something won't make it.

#61 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 02:49

What happens to old or redundant cars is not a mystery....rich guys buy them and race in SVRA and HSR.

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#62 shaggy

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 03:51

A real shame, then, because I did like the looks of the DP01. A shame that Atlantics may die, too.
Since I am heavily into ALMS now, I was hoping that Panoz could rescue Atlantics.

shaggy

#63 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 05:18

Haven't they though? They're tired up pretty good with Mazda so I assume they'll more closely align with Atlantics over time. Assuming all the talent doesn't go to a revamped Indylights in the long run.

#64 fer312t

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 05:43

Get used to it. If a car goes into the stands at a race ala Le Mans '57, racing will be over. That's why NASCAR uses restrictor plates, why the IRL/ICS mandates wing angles, why F-1 doesn't use banked corners any more.


Get used to it ? Indycars were running 230-240+ way after Bobby Allison/Restrictor plates...
220 mph being some sort of magic number is a recent 'invention' and just respresents a further sterility - the IRL didn't help this situation with it's rash of spectator involved accidents...

And when was it that F1 was using banked corners exactely???


Hell it's why we have so many full course yellows on street courses. The insurance fellers have been dictating the state of play for a loooong time. Don't get antsy just because you learned about it now


Don't condescend Stonefeld...

Full course yellows on street courses is alot more the result of sub-standard marshalling/equiptment (i.e the series not having enough money to pay for [or clout to require] efficient removal methods.)

Anyway my whole point was that the Indycar Dallaras look sluggish on the road courses...which I don't see has anything to do with oval speeds. CART was running various boost levels for RCs/Ovals to control speeds...and Indycar can find some way to increase the performance on Road Courses and limit it on the ovals...

I frankly don't see why the crowd here is trying to 'justify' lower performance levels...when they are not always connected to increased risk...

#65 McGuire

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 12:12

Originally posted by fer312t


Anyway my whole point was that the Indycar Dallaras look sluggish on the road courses...


They don't to me. And since their lap times are quite comparable to champ cars, that means my eye is pretty good.

#66 McGuire

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 12:20

Originally posted by fer312t


Get used to it ? Indycars were running 230-240+ way after Bobby Allison/Restrictor plates...
220 mph being some sort of magic number is a recent 'invention' and just respresents a further sterility - the IRL didn't help this situation with it's rash of spectator involved accidents...

And when was it that F1 was using banked corners exactely???




Well, what is the safe speed at Indy in your opinion? Last year's pole average was ~226 mph.

#67 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 13:01

Dual posts? Seriously?

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#68 shaggy

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 13:58

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Haven't they though? They're tired up pretty good with Mazda so I assume they'll more closely align with Atlantics over time. Assuming all the talent doesn't go to a revamped Indylights in the long run.

I hope so. IndyLights died once. Atlantics survived and it has more and better history. I really thought TG would get rid of IPS and pick up Atlantics. Oh well.

I still don't see the issue with going to 750 HP; those Atlantic drivers get used to it rather fast. Maybe the cost, but if they race with ALMS on almost all their races (except when ALMS races with Indy), they might make it worthwhile.

de Ferran just signed Simon Pagenaud, from Atlantics/CC, to race for/with him in ALMS :up:

shaggy

#69 shaggy

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 14:01

Originally posted by EDJE
POINTLESS?!

This merger may become a pointless disaster for the fortunes of the 34th running of the Toyota Grand Prix of Long Beach.

The possibility looms that if the IRL race in Motegi, Japan gets cancelled today (10:00pm ET) due to weather and track conditions (as was the case last night), the Dallara’s get loaded back into the planes and go to Kansas City for next weeks race. No race at Twin-Ring! No points for established drivers.

Further, if this happens, the race through the streets of Long Beach will have the proverbial “RUG” pulled out from underneath it. The nine drivers (the “Fine Nine”) that were able to transition into the IRL for the full season, as well as the balance of the 20 car field will be awarded with the same result – NO POINTS!

Can they race on Monday ?

shaggy

#70 McGuire

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 14:50

Originally posted by shaggy
Would it make any sense for Atlantics to buy the DP01 ? It would increase the horsepower they have now and, maybe, increase its appeal.

shaggy


No sense that I can see. The major problem with the Atlantics as a driver-development series (which is what it is) is that it costs too damn much already. If a young kid wants to race there, first he will need to bring a check for a half-million to a million bucks. So the whole deal becomes an exercise in fund-raising and inevitably, ride buying. The DP01 would easily double or triple the cost over what it is today. What is the point in that?

What North American road racing needs is a good, cheap driver development series -- which is really hard to do. The Atlantic and IPS cars are pretty much the bare minimum for a safe, presentable car of that caliber. Not much fat there. And no matter how cheap you make the car, there will still be a minimum annual budget based on operating and maintenance costs, vehicle transportation, and personnel travel expenses. And since we are talking about development series, we will need a crash budget too. A nose for a DP01 costs over 10 grand.

#71 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 17:14

Originally posted by fer312t



Full course yellows on street courses is alot more the result of sub-standard marshalling/equiptment (i.e the series not having enough money to pay for [or clout to require] efficient removal methods.)



Nope. It's more to do when you go off on a street circuit you're often still on the track. Insurance doesn't like having people not sitting in cars out on active race tracks.

#72 fer312t

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 17:43

Nope. It's more to do when you go off on a street circuit you're often still on the track. Insurance doesn't like having people not sitting in cars out on active race tracks.


I'm not advocating puting marshalls on drivers in harms way...I was just pointing out the the removal methods are in most cases much better in europe. I don't think you could watch Indycar racing for the past 25 years and not think some of the full course cautions are painfully unecessary...

#73 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 18:01

Ever since Willy T Ribbs, I'd say most of them are neccessary.

If you had more temporary circuits in European racing, and a slightly more litigious society, who knows what the rules would be like.

#74 IOU 16

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 18:33

Originally posted by McGuire


They don't to me. And since their lap times are quite comparable to sports cars, that means my eye is pretty good.


Fixed it for you. The Dallara was only a second or two faster than the Audi's at St. Pete. The DP-01 is over 4-5 seconds faster than the Audi's at Long Beach.

#75 shaggy

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 19:39

Originally posted by McGuire


No sense that I can see. The major problem with the Atlantics as a driver-development series (which is what it is) is that it costs too damn much already. If a young kid wants to race there, first he will need to bring a check for a half-million to a million bucks. So the whole deal becomes an exercise in fund-raising and inevitably, ride buying. The DP01 would easily double or triple the cost over what it is today. What is the point in that?

What North American road racing needs is a good, cheap driver development series -- which is really hard to do. The Atlantic and IPS cars are pretty much the bare minimum for a safe, presentable car of that caliber. Not much fat there. And no matter how cheap you make the car, there will still be a minimum annual budget based on operating and maintenance costs, vehicle transportation, and personnel travel expenses. And since we are talking about development series, we will need a crash budget too. A nose for a DP01 costs over 10 grand.

Then, the Sex Pistols were right : there's no future, no future, no future

shaggy

#76 Burai

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 20:12

Originally posted by IOU 16


Fixed it for you. The Dallara was only a second or two faster than the Audi's at St. Pete. The DP-01 is over 4-5 seconds faster than the Audi's at Long Beach.


So the DP01 is, at best, 4 seconds a lap faster than the Dallara? That's not much. We've seen F1 fields with bigger gaps from the front to the back.

#77 ColdHeart

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 23:02

Originally posted by IOU 16


Fixed it for you. The Dallara was only a second or two faster than the Audi's at St. Pete. The DP-01 is over 4-5 seconds faster than the Audi's at Long Beach.


And the CART Lolas were much slower than F-1 cars at Montreal and NASCAR is 30 mph slower than Indy cars at Indy. Who cares?

#78 McGuire

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 23:22

Originally posted by IOU 16


Fixed it for you. The Dallara was only a second or two faster than the Audi's at St. Pete. The DP-01 is over 4-5 seconds faster than the Audi's at Long Beach.


Nice try kid, but your facts are wrong and your logic is wack. First, the Audis were not on pole at St. Pete or Long Beach (quickest one at LB was sixth). A Porsche LMP2 took pole with a 1:11.330 at LB. The Champ Car pole was 1:06.902. So the DP01 is not "over 4-5 seconds quicker" than the ALMS cars but exactly 4.428 seconds.

And all that is apples vs. oranges anyway. At St. Pete, this is how Champ Cars and Indy Cars compare in pole times, head to head:

2003 Lola-Cosworth 1:00.928 (Bourdais). Last time CART ran there.

2008 Dallara-Honda 1:02.532 (Kanaan).

So the difference between these two cars at St. Pete is bugger all of 1.604 seconds. Woop-de-doo. And the Panoz DP01 is a tick slower than the Lola. Kanaan's time at St. P was good enough for 8th on the grid at the last Champ Car race there.

How do the various cars stack up on a real, natural terrain road course? Let's have a look at Mid-Ohio:

Indy Car 2007 Helio 1:06.837 Dallara
Champ Car 2003 Tracy 1:07.058 (last year CC ran Mid-Ohio) Lola
Champ Car 1999 Dario 1:05.679 (Champ Car record) Reynard

ALMS 2007 Bernhard 1:08.510 (LMP2 on pole) Porsche
ALMS 2007 Gavin 1:16.568 GT1 pole Corvette C6R

Note the Dallara was actually a tick quicker than the Lola the last time the Lola ran at M-O.

But at the end of the day none of this means squat. You can throw a blanket over the Panoz and Dallara lap times at St. Pete or Mid-Ohio. Without a stopwatch no one can tell the difference. If you think you can you are imagining things. But more importantly: If you have any technical knowledge at all, you know all these cars are tightly regulated by their respective rulebooks. With any of these cars, you could take seconds per lap off or put seconds per lap on them with a few simple tweaks. All that is an engineering administrative decision by the series. Arguing which car is faster like it proves something is the most pointless exercise imaginable. Pure fanboy stuff.

If I were going to be that juvenile about it, I would simply point out that as they stack up today, the Dallara is the faster car by at least 25 mph. The Panoz DP01 never got a speedway aero package. It's not going much over 200 mph in legal trim and I don't care if you take it to Bonneville. At Indy the Dallara ran a lap average of ~226 mph in '07. With the one-step previous engine it ran over 230.

#79 McGuire

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Posted 19 April 2008 - 23:27

Originally posted by ColdHeart


And the CART Lolas were much slower than F-1 cars at Montreal and NASCAR is 30 mph slower than Indy cars at Indy. Who cares?


Exactly. The important thing is safe, competitive racing.

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#80 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 02:49

Originally posted by McGuire


Nice try kid, but your facts are wrong and your logic is wack.

Actually, carve up the time however you want, but the *fact* is that the DP-01 was demonstrably faster at LB in comparsion to the Dallaras at St Pete when judging by the benchmark Audi times.
By a bunch.
Maybe you can't tell the difference, or rather, don't care to note the difference, but in the stands, it was totally evident. As usual, you could care less about what the fans think or for that matter what the drivers themselves say. It's all about McGuire and his opinions.

The drivers that have driven both, say different, not that it matters to you.

"THE MODERATOR: Oriol, why don't you tell us a little bit about what it felt like. Obviously you're driving in the IndyCar Series, jumping in the DP‑01 again. Any different feeling? Tell us about that.

ORIOL SERVIA:
It's a lot more downforce and lighter and more power, so just a better performing and faster car."

#81 Burai

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 08:46

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Actually, carve up the time however you want, but the *fact* is that the DP-01 was demonstrably faster at LB in comparsion to the Dallaras at St Pete when judging by the benchmark Audi times.
By a bunch.
Maybe you can't tell the difference, or rather, don't care to note the difference, but in the stands, it was totally evident. As usual, you could care less about what the fans think or for that matter what the drivers themselves say. It's all about McGuire and his opinions.


Hang on a second. McGuire has been providing evidence to back himself up. The only one using an opinion to argue here is you.

"The fans can see it" and "the drivers can feel it" is not the same as a cold, hard lap time. It's more than possible to drive a car and for it to feel amazing and to look amazing, but for the resultant laptime not to actually be that great.

#82 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 08:56

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII



ORIOL SERVIA:
It's a lot more downforce and lighter and more power, so just a better performing and faster car."


So basically not a better car, just a more open rules package.

F1 is already king of laptimes, so if you're going to judge cars based on that why watch anything else?

I'm no fan of the Dallara (but my god does anyone remember the Panoz IRL?), but if aesthetics were top of the list I'd never watch NASCAR and would only watch Historic F1 and Goodwood.

#83 McGuire

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 11:03

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Actually, carve up the time however you want, but the *fact* is that the DP-01 was demonstrably faster at LB in comparsion to the Dallaras at St Pete when judging by the benchmark Audi times.
By a bunch.


Here are the lap times again:

St. Pete
Lola-Cosworth 1:00.928 (Bourdais).
Dallara-Honda 1:02.532 (Kanaan).

Mid-Ohio
Dallara-Honda 1:06.837 (Kanaan)
Lola-Cosworth 1:07.058 (Tracy)

#84 McGuire

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 11:07

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


So basically not a better car, just a more open rules package.


Since the car has slighly more power and downforce but runs virtually identical lap times, I would say the operative word is *easier* to drive.

#85 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 13:17

Originally posted by McGuire


Since the car has slightly more power and downforce but runs virtually identical lap times, I would say the operative word is *easier* to drive.


more forgiving would be a better choice of words, but I'm splitting hairs. High downforce cars aero actually harder to drive from a physical perspective but they allow you to do more. Hence more forgiving. Totally splitting hairs here.

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#86 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 13:54

Burai:

"Hang on a second. McGuire has been providing evidence to back himself up. The only one using an opinion to argue here is you.

"The fans can see it" and "the drivers can feel it" is not the same as a cold, hard lap time. It's more than possible to drive a car and for it to feel amazing and to look amazing, but for the resultant laptime not to actually be that great."

Cold, hard lap times.

1:02.532 St Pete Pole Dallara Honda
1:02.825 St Pete Pole LMP 1-Audi

1:07.356 LBGP Pole-DP01 Cosworth
1:11.330 LBGP Pole-LMP 2-Penske

#87 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 14:30

Proving nothing, really.

We all have to drink from the same murky water, you guys need to quit pissing in it.

#88 EDJE

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 15:13

2008 will easily go down as a year of firsts in American Motosports!

First unified open-wheel racing season in well over a couple of decades (INDY perspective). The youngest driver to win a professional open-wheel automobile race (Graham Rahal at age 19). First team to win an IRL race other than the three top teams in the IRL since 2005 when Newman/Haas /Lanigan placed Graham Rahal in the top spot in St. Petersburg. And NOW - - - The first woman to ever win a race at the highest levels of professional open-wheel automobile racing.

All of this activity and we are only two and a half races (or is that three?) into an eighteen race season.

The Dallara chassis may be old, but it still races as long as there are teams and drivers to suit up and show up.

Whats next? A ChampCar T-Team takes the championship points lead? If Graham Rahal wins in Long Beach tomorrow, he will be second in the points with three full races into the season (or is that four?).

All Hail Danica Patrick!

#89 GhostR

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 16:14

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Proving nothing, really.

We all have to drink from the same murky water, you guys need to quit pissing in it.


For once, Ross's economy with words produces something 100% spot on.

#90 shaggy

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 16:18

Originally posted by McGuire


Here are the lap times again:

St. Pete
Lola-Cosworth 1:00.928 (Bourdais).
Dallara-Honda 1:02.532 (Kanaan).

Mid-Ohio
Dallara-Honda 1:06.837 (Kanaan)
Lola-Cosworth 1:07.058 (Tracy)

Are these numbers from the same year and weekend and under "similar" conditions ? If they are not, they then mean nothing.

I can't tell how fast a car is going just by watching it. Besides, it is not that important really; the important thing is how it compares to its competition and how even the competition is during the race.

Nevertheless, the number being compared need to be form the same weekend and similar conditions.

shaggy

#91 McGuire

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 16:29

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII

Cold, hard lap times.

1:02.532 St Pete Pole Dallara Honda
1:02.825 St Pete Pole LMP 1-Audi

1:07.356 LBGP Pole-DP01 Cosworth
1:11.330 LBGP Pole-LMP 2-Penske


So what? When you compare the Champ Car and Indy Car to each other, head-to-head, their lap times are very similar. Identical for all practical purposes. The Champ Car is a tick quicker at St Pete, while the Indy Car is a tick quicker at Mid-Ohio. There is no meaningful difference.

You attempt to find some meaning in the fact that the open wheeler was three-tenths quicker than the ALMS car at St. Pete and four seconds quicker at LB. No. In the first place we are talking about bugger all of 3.7 seconds on two different tracks. That could easily be in the tire selected for those two ALMS events. When you compare two totally different series in this manner you introduce a host of variables.

It is certainly a far less valid comparison than comparing the two cars head to head. That ought to go without saying, even to someone as argumentative as you. :D

And anyway, what in the hell is your point? Several times in my life the sports cars have been quicker than the open wheelers on road courses. But guess what? NOBODY CARED. Not only didn't they care, 95 percent of the fans didn't even know it at the time, and they do not know it now. Without a stopwatch it truly does not matter. You don't even care, really. This is just another one of your I-Hate-the-IRL deals.

#92 McGuire

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 16:35

Originally posted by shaggy

Are these numbers from the same year and weekend and under "similar" conditions ? If they are not, they then mean nothing.

I can't tell how fast a car is going just by watching it. Besides, it is not that important really; the important thing is how it compares to its competition and how even the competition is during the race.

Nevertheless, the number being compared need to be form the same weekend and similar conditions.

shaggy


Those are all quite valid points, but that is not to say the lap times mean "nothing." The purpose here is to show that on several tracks and over a broad range of conditions, the two cars are very similar in their road course lap times. Any difference in speed will certainly not be visible to the naked eye, just as you say.

#93 ColdHeart

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 17:42

Las Vegas oval, 2005, Pole speed 204.693, Lola-Cosworth, Bourdais
Las Vegas oval, 1998, Pole speed 214.567, Dallara-Olds, Boat

#94 fer312t

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Posted 20 April 2008 - 22:48

McGuire, you're fudging the stats...The DP 01 is a significantly quicker (and more elegant) racecar...


When you compare the Champ Car and Indy Car to each other, head-to-head, their lap times are very similar. Identical for all practical purposes. The Champ Car is a tick quicker at St Pete, while the Indy Car is a tick quicker at Mid-Ohio. There is no meaningful difference.


Same weekend, similar conditions, Wilson's pole time of 1:06.902 long beach this weekend was massively quicker that the Pole winning ALMS car of 1:11.330

Wheras just a couple weeks ago, as pointed out, the Dallara was only a few tenths quicker than the ALMS Pole time...

Any difference in speed will certainly not be visible to the naked eye, just as you say.



You can notice the difference just by watching the television coverage...it's quite apparent actually.

#95 McGuire

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 00:00

Originally posted by fer312t
McGuire, you're fudging the stats...The DP 01 is a significantly quicker (and more elegant) racecar...


I am not fudging any numbers. You guys are confusing yourselves with this ALMS stuff, which is not relevant.

This is simple. At two road courses where both the Indy Car and the Champ Car have raced -- St. Petersburg and Mid-Ohio -- their lap times are very similar. Virtually identical. The Champ Car is a tick quicker at St. Pete, while the Indy Car is a tick quicker at Mid-Ohio. No difference for this purpose.

I gaurantee you that you will find the same result at Long Beach as the circuit is not that unusual:

St. Pete: 1.806 miles 14 turns 104 mph lap average speed

Mid-Ohio: 2.25 miles 13 turns 121 mph lap average speed

Long Beach: 1.968 miles 11 turns 106 mph lap average speed

#96 McGuire

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 00:11

Originally posted by fer312t



You can notice the difference just by watching the television coverage...it's quite apparent actually.


Give me a break. Now we both know this is all in your head. You cannot judge speed on television. That is all a matter of camera angle, focal length and panning rate. That is why a 330 mph fuel dragster has the same apparent speed as an Atlantic car at 100 mph -- or in other words, why NHRA has never caught fire on television, precisely because the medium does such a poor job of translating the cars' performance.

However, the clock does not lie. And the clock says the two open-wheelers race at remarkably similar speeds. If you prefer the look of the Champ Car over the Indy Car that's perfectly fine, but don't tell me the Champ Car is significantly faster. That's not what the clock says.

#97 xflow7

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 00:24

Originally posted by McGuire


I am not fudging any numbers. You guys are confusing yourselves with this ALMS stuff, which is not relevant.

This is simple. At two road courses where both the Indy Car and the Champ Car have raced -- St. Petersburg and Mid-Ohio -- their lap times are very similar. Virtually identical. The Champ Car is a tick quicker at St. Pete, while the Indy Car is a tick quicker at Mid-Ohio. No difference for this purpose.

I gaurantee you that you will find the same result at Long Beach as the circuit is not that unusual:

St. Pete: 1.806 miles 14 turns 104 mph lap average speed

Mid-Ohio: 2.25 miles 13 turns 121 mph lap average speed

Long Beach: 1.968 miles 11 turns 106 mph lap average speed


Gotta be a little careful using Mid-Ohio for this as it got resurfaced and the concrete patches removed in the last couple of years.

#98 McGuire

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 00:59

Originally posted by xflow7


Gotta be a little careful using Mid-Ohio for this as it got resurfaced and the concrete patches removed in the last couple of years.


Quite right, but you will find that the lap times have remained relatively stable from year to year for Champ Cars -- one or two seconds either way -- through several refurbishings. There have been no significant changes going all the way back to 1990 when they stopped using the bus stop just before the keyhole. Dario still holds the all-time Champ Car track record, set back in '99 with a Reynard. 1:05 something. The biggest change from year to year will usually be due to the tires. For example, in '99 they were just coming off a tire war.

I don't really understand this insistence on open wheelers being the fastest on road courses, especially by some arbitrary margin pulled out of thin air. (I guess I do but I don't.) Series officials have better things to worry about -- like safety, cost, and competitiveness. At Road America Mark Donahue held the absolute record for years and years with the Porsche 917-30. Nothing else even broke under two minutes for over a decade. Did this hurt the racing in any way? Not that I can see.

With the Champ Car or the Indy Car the lap speeds can be adjusted up and down several seconds per lap or more just with tire selection and aero dimensions. Should a racing series fiddle with all that just to throw a time up on the board? Hell no. What does that prove? The fans want good racing.

#99 fer312t

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:07

However, the clock does not lie. And the clock says the two open-wheelers race at remarkably similar speeds. If you prefer the look of the Champ Car over the Indy Car that's perfectly fine, but don't tell me the Champ Car is significantly faster. That's not what the clock says.



McGuire, all you have to look at the relative speeds of one series compared to another using the ALMS (on the same raceweekend) as a benchmark to get a *rough idea

As pointed out, the mid-ohio times you're quoting are not terribly applicable...

The panoz is a marginally lighter and more powerful car, so it is no surprise it is a bit quicker...
When both the IRL and Champcars tested on the short course at Sebring last winter the difference was about 3.5-4 seconds...a fairly sizable gap on a short 50 sec lap...

Give me a break. Now we both know this is all in your head. You cannot judge speed on television.



I honestly disagree...You can distinguish the small speed differential between that of a fast/slightly slower car
in the same race, let alone two series that are separated by seconds over a given lap...

And if you watch a GP 2 or champcar race, they switch over to an F1 race, it feels as if your watching things in fast forward - it is jarringly different.

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#100 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 21 April 2008 - 01:13

Originally posted by McGuire

That ought to go without saying, even to someone as argumentative as you. :D

Argumentative?
No, not really. Just calling bullshit when I see it.
I don't even know who started this pissing match, but it wasn't me and it wasn't me that put up Lola Cosworth numbers from god knows when against Dallara Honda numbers at Mid Ohio from god knows when, under what conditions.
I just put up numbers that are as close you will ever find, and all of a sudden, the tune changes that it isn't relevant anyway, in a run of McGuire excuses, er rationales, er, posts.
Me?
I'm innocent, had a great weekend at the last turbo LBGP, and for anyone that watches (watched) the last LBGP, you may notice some sentiment expressed about TG all over the circuits retainer walls.
And I had nothing to do with it.