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10 greatest IRL drivers of the split (1996-2007)


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#1 Slyder

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 02:52

Following Mr. Van De Gurgt's thread. I'd say that now that the series have merged, it would be fair to also go back in history and pick out who was the best from the other side of the fence.

So went ahead and went through the statistics of the IRL's past champions till 2007. 2008 marks the first year it's finally all a unified series, so it should be fair it all ends in 2007. Of all the drivers that competed there, here are the ones that stand out.


Scott Sharp
Tony Stewart
Eddie Cheever
Arie Luyendyk
Scott Goodyear
Davey Hamilton
Buddy Lazier
Kenny Brack
Greg Ray
Sam Schmidt
Mark Dismore
Sam Hornish Jr.
Helio Castro-Neves
Gil De Ferran
Dan Wheldon
Tony Kanaan
Buddy Rice
Dario Franchitti
Scott Dixon
Tomas Scheckter
Danica Patrick

Of these guys, my list would be like this

1. Sam Hornish Jr. - He proved he was no scab and beat the CCWS boys fair and square when they invaded.
2. Tony Stewart - He was just brilliant to watch in the beginning of the IRL years, such flair hasn't been seen since
3. Scott Dixon - Mr. Consistency, rode out Toyota slump with his chin up and proved to be a better driver than anyone had anticipated.
4. Arie Luyendyk - Flying Dutchman gave the IRL a lot of credibility in their early days, and was always a man to beat.
5. Buddy Lazier - I think of him as the IRL's Iron man, coming back from a shattered back to win Indy, a good bunch of races and a Championship, he definitely had the talent.
6. Tony Kanaan - More than just the aero nose ;) Kanaan is a true challenger, and a man to beat every single time.
7. Greg Ray - I liked this guy from the beginning, bloody fast every time, who could've won more races than what he did if it weren't for the car giving up on him 75% of the time
8. Kenny Brack - Kenny was just awesome to watch, race in and race out, his best moments were with Foyt. His reputation got a tad tainted when he came back, he just wasn't the same, but thankfully he's still alive after that horrific Texas crash
9. Dan Wheldon - Boy this guy is something. He was a dominant force in AGR, and a threat every time on the track, although he seems to be faltering nowadays.
10. Helio Castro-Neves - He's always been fun to watch, a tad annoying, a bit inconsistent but unbeatable when everything went his way.

I'd say Scott Sharp would be in 11th, cause the man was genuinely competitive if a tad inconsistent, and maybe just stayed around a tad too long for his own good.

Honorable mentions go to Eddie Cheever, Tomas Scheckter, Scott Goodyear, Buddy Rice and Davey Hamilton.

How bout you guys? :up: :smoking:

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#2 pingu666

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 03:04

billy boat, just for the name :D :D

#3 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 03:45

racin gardner

#4 Pikachu Racing

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 03:55

1. Sam Hornish. It's not just he beat Penske and winning the champion or being clutch when it comes to winning. It's how he made an entrance which led him to Panther Racing. 2000 Kentucky will always stick to my mind and his performance with PDM was great feel good story. The only time the car was on the track was at qualifying and it was parked til race day. On race day he came out of nowhere and led. If he didn't stalled in the pits he could have won. Panther took notice and signed him. Also remember 2003 when Chevy was way underpowered and Chevy teams complained? Guess who didn't complain and just race the damn thing to not only top 10 but top 5 as well including being in contention at short tracks? It was him and that was before Cosworth made mid-season save.

2. Tony Stewart. He was quick but something usually breaks costing him wins

3. Arie Luyendyk

4. Kenny Brack.

5. Scott Sharp. Won 9 times with most coming from Kelly Racing.

6. Helio Castro-Neves

7. Buddy Lazier

8. Dan Wheldon

9. Scott Goodyear

10. Alex Barron. Very impressive when he came in. He put Larry Blair car in the victory lane the following year replacing injured driver at Mo Nunn Racing he beat out Sam Hornish. Sadly he's forgotten which is a shame.

#5 McGuire

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 13:53

Originally posted by pingu666
billy boat, just for the name :D :D


Really good qualifier, especially at Indy. Builds custom exhaust systems for Porsches and Corvettes etc these days, beautiful stuff.

#6 ColdHeart

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 16:46

His kid Chad is 16 and is reportedly very fast and will be in an Indy car someday.

#7 9 Degrees 12 Min

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 17:30

It's difficult to determine which drivers to include. Crossover drivers, i.e. Helio and Gil de Ferran, Kanaan, Dixon, Franchitti, to me were CART drivers who's sponsors fled to the IRL. So my top ten would be those who emerged in the winter of 1996 to the collective motor racing world as....who in the what?

1. Sam Hornish Jr. Good oval driver, worked his way to top team in Penske and had success at Panther.
2. Tony Stewart. Promoted to Pole after his teammate, Brayton, got killed in practice for '96 500 and soon distanced himself from the lumpen rabble of no-names in that first season of IRL.
3. Kenny Brack. One of the few (if only) IRL drivers who defected to (at the time) a thriving CART series and did well in the series.
4. Dan Wheldon. Consistently improved from rookie season and won title and 500. More from him in future.
5. Juan Pablo Montoya. One appearance (that 500 Mile race in May Y2K), One front row, and One victory. Leading an incredible 167 laps in a crushing performance. Poor sample because of one event, but...goes to show you the level of competition the IRL fielded in 2000 vs two CART entrants (Vassar) in unfamiliar equipment and having to race twice that weekend in different formula. Wildly impressive to me back then.

Not to condemn the IRL, but I really can't finish the list without injecting it with CART defectors.

#8 McGuire

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 17:36

Originally posted by 9 Degrees 12 Min
Not to condemn the IRL, but I really can't finish the list without injecting it with CART defectors.


I don't think that should be an issue. If they raced in the IRL they are IRL drivers for the purposes of this discussion, as I see it. Shouldn't matter where they came from.

#9 Speedworx

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 18:30

1. Sam Hornish Jr
2. Buddy Lazier
3. Tony Stewart
4. Scott Dixon
5. Dan Wheldon
6. Kenny Brack
7. Tony Kanaan
8. Helio Castroneves
9. Airton Dare
10. Arie Luyendyk

#10 IOU 16

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 18:34

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII
racin gardner



Dr. Jack Miller was another great.

#11 BMW_F1

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 18:41

the thread should be best IRL drivers who never raced in CART/CHAMP..
Out of these only two stick out Stewart and Hornish. Everyone else has been overshadowed by the Brazilians, Montoya and everyone else that crossed over.

#12 Locai

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 18:47

Originally posted by McGuire


I don't think that should be an issue. If they raced in the IRL they are IRL drivers for the purposes of this discussion, as I see it. Shouldn't matter where they came from.


I understand your point, but it's hard to consider the "jumpers" in with the "lifers".

Also, why hasn't anybody mentioned Buddy Rice? His time with Schecter at Team "Chaos" (Cheever) was usually spectacular (not always in a good way).

And JPM's Indy win was incredible. He was in a completely different class that day.

One thing that strikes me about the IRL is just how much it's changed in 11-12 years. It's very difficult for me to compare anybody from the late 90's to anybody from the last couple of years.

#13 BMW_F1

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 18:52

Originally posted by Locai



And JPM's Indy win was incredible. He was in a completely different class that day.


true, since that day I pretty much realized that the talent pool in CART vs IRL was totally unparalleled.

#14 Pikachu Racing

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:19

Originally posted by Locai
One thing that strikes me about the IRL is just how much it's changed in 11-12 years. It's very difficult for me to compare anybody from the late 90's to anybody from the last couple of years.


That I agree. I been following since inception. Within those years I able break it down 3 "eras" in the league. To me there was the start (96-97), formula of survival (98-2002), and enter the defectors (2003-2007). I consider this year as start of another "era" which I will call "unify"

#15 McGuire

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:28

Originally posted by Locai

And JPM's Indy win was incredible. He was in a completely different class that day.


No disrespect to JPM whatsoever but that was the car. Juan was mainly along for the ride that day. Like he said, his grandma could drive the car. To his credit, he never put a wheel wrong for 500 miles and his out laps on cold tires were phenomenal. (Part of his edge in Champ Car, which he gave up when he went to F1.)

I've always thought the heroes of that win were crew chief Steve Gough, engine builder Doug Peterson of Comptech, team manager Andy Graves -- and the Champ Car pit crew for the pit stops, which were flawless. And Chip himself for setting up the program the way he did. One team, one race, total focus, no distractions. It was that rare thing at the Speedway, a perfect race car all day. At Indy you spend all month making everything perfect for race day and some little something invariably goes wrong.

Contrary to popular belief, JPM did not have the quickest car. Greg Ray was quicker early, but had a bad pit stop and then crashed trying to get back to the front. Late in the race Buddy Lazier repeatedly set fastest lap, finally setting fast lap on 198. But he had fallen back earlier, got bottled up in traffic and had to play catch-up.

#16 Bumper

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:36

Originally posted by McGuire
No disrespect to JPM whatsoever but that was the car.



Originally posted by McGuire
Contrary to popular belief, JPM did not have the quickest car.


Ehhh......

So the driver would have made all the difference. JPM did an outstanding job, whereas other drivers, as you mentioned, had a chance but messed it up.

#17 FLB

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:53

Originally posted by Bumper




Ehhh......

So the driver would have made all the difference. JPM did an outstanding job, whereas other drivers, as you mentioned, had a chance but messed it up.

Buddy Lazier was the only one who was even remotely close to Montoya that day.

#18 mapguy

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 20:55

Definately #1 is the 2002 Indy 500 winner, Paul Tracy.

#19 McGuire

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 21:01

Originally posted by mapguy
Definately #1 is the 2002 Indy 500 winner, Paul Tracy.


Sock puppet alert.

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#20 Bumper

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 21:04

Originally posted by mapguy
Definately #1 is the 2002 Indy 500 winner, Paul Tracy.


The Indy499 you mean ;)

After that race, and TG's decision, PT swore he would never set foot there again and drive 'one of those crapwagons'.

And here he is, years later, chatting to TG on the phone, making enquiries. Funny how times have changed.

I really hope he gets a competitive ride, he's not done yet :up:

#21 FLB

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 21:06

Not only that, but likely driving for TG's team as well! :eek:

#22 mapguy

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 21:09

McGuireB. How is your Toyota? (Speaking of puppets.)

PT did win that race. Video evidence show that he did. Now it is locked up in the IMS basement never to be seen again. Why did FTG allow the appeal and then say that the decision is cannot be appealed? He knew he was busted. And Barry Green was $10 mil richer.

#23 Bumper

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Posted 25 April 2008 - 21:09

Originally posted by FLB
Not only that, but likely driving for TG's team as well! :eek:


Yeah, the ultimate irony.

.....or desperate times for PT, the guy must have *really* gritted his teeth.

#24 Bob Riebe

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 03:46

Originally posted by BMW_F1
the thread should be best IRL drivers who never raced in CART/CHAMP..
Out of these only two stick out Stewart and Hornish. Everyone else has been overshadowed by the Brazilians, Montoya and everyone else that crossed over.

He is speaking of the IRL, are you too bigoted to understand the question?
Pissant IRL verses CART or what ever it was called at a point in time, is irrelevant and asinine.

#25 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 04:05

# 1 Montoya
1 race, 1 win.even though it was the i500 at that period.
there is no better record
It is odd that no one has put kenny brack very high, he had those sleds down
I'd have to say here that the onus on ovals was thje demise of many promising careers in the irl years through shear attrition

#26 metz

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 04:06

Originally posted by Slyder
4. Arie Luyendyk - Flying Dutchman gave the IRL a lot of credibility in their early days, and was always a man to beat.

Although I agree, I was struck with this turn of phrase, since AJ took it literal... :p

#27 ClubmanGT

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 05:23

Hornish, Dixon, Montoya, Castroneves, Wheldon, Franchitti, Lazier. That's as far as I've got, and I'm not being discriminatory.

#28 McGuire

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 11:23

I will always regard Buddy Lazier a champion for his 1996 Indy 500 win. He had 16 broken bones in his back from his crash at Phoenix, was not even supposed to be on his feet, let alone in a race car. Hemelgarn had a special seat made and a backboard to get in the car.

When Davy Jones et al were chasing him down over the final laps, a panel had slipped down and was blocking Buddy's brake pedal. It was balls to the wall -- win or don't walk back.

For me the victory lane photos say it all. Face twisted in pain, holding up his bottle of milk.

#29 Buford

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:09

How could you all miss heroic IRL champion Buzz Calkins? Wow he was really good. And how about that Tyce Carlson? Wow those sure were the days! And those cars were sure good too weren't they? Remember the IRL theme song by Pink Floyd, "All in all it's just another hick in the wall." Something like 77 hospital injuries in 82 races.

McGuire sure is right about that glorious Lazier victory against a field of dentists, bail bondsmen, and rodeo clowns!!! It made me so proud to be a racing fan after 37 years of attending the Indianapolis 500 without missing a single year. That IRL sure was good wasn't it?

(While it was running off several million racing fans and nearly destroyed the sport.)

#30 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:25

Way to stay on topic Blowhard.

#31 Jacquesback

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 15:40

Originally posted by Buford
How could you all miss heroic IRL champion Buzz Calkins? Wow he was really good. And how about that Tyce Carlson? Wow those sure were the days! And those cars were sure good too weren't they? Remember the IRL theme song by Pink Floyd, "All in all it's just another hick in the wall." Something like 77 hospital injuries in 82 races.

McGuire sure is right about that glorious Lazier victory against a field of dentists, bail bondsmen, and rodeo clowns!!! It made me so proud to be a racing fan after 37 years of attending the Indianapolis 500 without missing a single year. That IRL sure was good wasn't it?

(While it was running off several million racing fans and nearly destroyed the sport.)


:rotfl: :up:

#32 BMW_F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 16:06

Originally posted by McGuire


No disrespect to JPM whatsoever but that was the car. Juan was mainly along for the ride that day. Like he said, his grandma could drive the car. To his credit, he never put a wheel wrong for 500 miles and his out laps on cold tires were phenomenal. (Part of his edge in Champ Car, which he gave up when he went to F1.)

I've always thought the heroes of that win were crew chief Steve Gough, engine builder Doug Peterson of Comptech, team manager Andy Graves -- and the Champ Car pit crew for the pit stops, which were flawless. And Chip himself for setting up the program the way he did. One team, one race, total focus, no distractions. It was that rare thing at the Speedway, a perfect race car all day. At Indy you spend all month making everything perfect for race day and some little something invariably goes wrong.

Contrary to popular belief, JPM did not have the quickest car. Greg Ray was quicker early, but had a bad pit stop and then crashed trying to get back to the front. Late in the race Buddy Lazier repeatedly set fastest lap, finally setting fast lap on 198. But he had fallen back earlier, got bottled up in traffic and had to play catch-up.



I think it was JPM who made the difference, he approached that track as if there was nothing special about it, his first lap in practice he took it flat out. How many times has anyone seen some one do that at Indy.. ? After that first lap, there were mixed comments, those who said "what does he think he is doing.. he is going to wreck.." and those who thought "wow , this kid has talent we haven't seen in years ...".. At the race he won, he never changed his approach and guess who was wrong?

#33 mapguy

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 01:57

Originally posted by McGuire
I will always regard Buddy Lazier a champion for his 1996 Indy 500 win. He had 16 broken bones in his back from his crash at Phoenix, was not even supposed to be on his feet, let alone in a race car. Hemelgarn had a special seat made and a backboard to get in the car.

When Davy Jones et al were chasing him down over the final laps, a panel had slipped down and was blocking Buddy's brake pedal. It was balls to the wall -- win or don't walk back.

For me the victory lane photos say it all. Face twisted in pain, holding up his bottle of milk.


How is your Toyota? You forgot to answer that question. Is it missing a 7th Gear?

Buddy Lazier is a wanker. If he had any real talent he wouldn't have to spend his Dad's money when he was in CART. Dude wouldn't know an apex if it hit him on the head.

#34 McGuire

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 01:59

Originally posted by Buford

McGuire sure is right about that glorious Lazier victory against a field of dentists, bail bondsmen, and rodeo clowns!!! It made me so proud to be a racing fan after 37 years of attending the Indianapolis 500 without missing a single year. That IRL sure was good wasn't it?


As far as I am concerned, none of that devalues Lazier's victory in the least.

While you CARTweenies want to believe that only CART drivers can drive race cars, may I refer you to the race held that very same day, the 1996 U.S. 500. Unfortunately, it turns out that a three-abreast start was beyond the capabilities of this unmatched field of superstars and a dozen cars were taken out. If CART management had not fudged its rules to allow backup cars to be substituted into an already-started race, the event would have been even more of a joke.

Today, Buddy Lazier's courageous win at the Indy 500 is still discussed, while anyone who can even remember the U.S. 500 would probably like to forget it, no one more than the participants. Who won the '96 U.S. 500? Who cares?

And who came up with such a stupid and childish idea in the first place? Let's put on our own race the same day as the Indy 500. That will teach the Speedway a lesson! That's something a 12 year-old would think up. What were they thinking? And there is the lesson: Never, ever let team owners run a racing series.

#35 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:18

Originally posted by McGuire


As far as I am concerned, none of that devalues Lazier's victory in the least.


Of course it wouldn't devalue it in your opinion. indy uber alles and press credentials dictate your every post on anything and everything ims related.
Never mind that in the same thread you tell us all that the only reason JPM won was the car, thus devaluing his win, yet at the same time dismiss the fact that Laziers win was aganst the weakest field, with the most undependable cars in (all hail) i 500 history.

But, hey disagree with anything Bill posts and the labels come out.
CARTweenies.
:rotfl:

#36 Risil

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:34

Originally posted by McGuire


And who came up with such a stupid and childish idea in the first place? Let's put on our own race the same day as the Indy 500. That will teach the Speedway a lesson! That's something a 12 year-old would think up. What were they thinking? And there is the lesson: Never, ever let team owners run a racing series.


IMO you can't blame them too much for that. The power of the the Speedway versus virtually the entire apparatus of the CART series had not at that point been tested - I don't think it's fair to blame the team owners for failing to account for just what level of sentimental value was attached to what was in 1996 essentially a nominal Indy 500. If the US 500 had been a success (which, on paper, it should've been; doubly so for the team owners who understandably believed it was their input that had made the Indycar series), the Indy 500 and hence the IRL and Tony George would've been crushed before his rebellion had gotten off the ground. Arguably it was the boycott that transformed the schism into an all-out split, which could've been avoided by sending the quickest 8 Champcars to clean up at a non-points event, but that would hardly have been the show of solidarity that may have been seen as necessary.

And ultimately the most that can be read from the debacle is that a) the drivers on the front row were idiots, and b) those in charge of CART, being the people that had made the unified series happen, excusably failed to take into account the importance of the Speedway, that simply by existing gave OW racing in the US more cultural traction than the combined efforts of the whole CART series. IMO that was what the team owners never understood, or could never understand, given their perspective from inside the sport.


When I saw this thread, my first instinct was :lol:, to be honest. Around 2003-4, what was CART simply became the IRL, as teams, drivers, to a lesser extent viewers switched en masse. CART's problems became IRL's problems, as they were the common problems of American open-wheel racing in general, and had been in evidence even before 1996. The Split was at most an accelerant. But we'll probably know more in the fullness of time.

And anyhow, I nominate Jim Guthrie, simply for being the only man who lived Tony George's mad, romantic dream. :drunk:

#37 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:36

Originally posted by McGuire


And who came up with such a stupid and childish idea in the first place?


Roger Penske, you already knew that.

#38 Bumper

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:42

Let's just agree it was a ****ed up situation, some bad decisions were made, indycar as open wheel series suffered and now we have to move on and try again. Halleluja.

#39 canon1753

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:45

Jim Guthrie's win at Phoenix was probably the biggest, if not one of the biggest underdog win in a major series.

My list:

Sam Hornish
Helio Castroneves
Scott Sharp
Buddy Lazier
Tony Stewart
JPM
Eddie Cheever
Mark Dismore
Greg Ray

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#40 Bumper

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:50

Anyone who puts in JPM as a greatest driver of IRL, having only driven one race in that series, I guess defines the IRL pre-unification.

#41 McGuire

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:08

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Roger Penske, you already knew that.


Not so. Penske was publicly opposed to the U.S. 500, but went along with it as a CART team player. He was in favor (naturally) of the compromise solution he negotiated with Tony George to start 42 cars in the Indy 500. That offer was rejected by the CART board in favor of the U.S. 500 plan.

Penske would later describe running the U.S. 500 at Michigan as the worst decision of his business career.

Know your open wheel history.

No offense, but it is very difficult to discuss open-wheel racing with you as you seem to know so little about it. How about doing a little research before launching these pointless arguments?

#42 whitewaterMkII

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 03:22

Originally posted by McGuire

Penske would later describe running the U.S. 500 at Michigan as the worst decision of his business career.

If he said that, then it confirms the fact that it was his decision.
He provided the track. He provided teams. He provided marketing.
I could really care less whether you want to discuss USOW racing or not.
Why do I care what you consider history, your vision of history is blinded by your love of indy and a revisionist POV. Always has been.

#43 Ricardo F1

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 04:22

Didn't they all just drive in ovals?

#44 Bob Riebe

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:15

Originally posted by mapguy


How is your Toyota? You forgot to answer that question. Is it missing a 7th Gear?

Buddy Lazier is a wanker. If he had any real talent he wouldn't have to spend his Dad's money when he was in CART. Dude wouldn't know an apex if it hit him on the head.

AH, another poster who is a legend in his own mind.
Your rhetoric speaks much of your intelligence level.

#45 Bob Riebe

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:21

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


yet at the same time dismiss the fact that Laziers win was aganst the weakest field, with the most undependable cars in (all hail) i 500 history.

Sir:
McGuire has his opinion based mainly of facts, whether one agrees with him or not, but do you have any facts to back-up this statement.
Please don't drop down to some sixth grade--I'm rubber you're glue--style rhetoric in your answer, as many here seem to have a lock on such a style.

#46 Bob Riebe

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:26

Originally posted by Risil
CART simply became the IRL,

For allowing that to happen Mr. George truly has earned the derogatory quips that have come his way, as what happened makes him look like a fool-- EVEN if he is just one clown among many between the IRL and CART.

IT WAS supposed to be HIS VISION.

#47 McGuire

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 08:50

Originally posted by canon1753
Jim Guthrie's win at Phoenix was probably the biggest, if not one of the biggest underdog win in a major series.


Agreed, that was a great story. Also a great win for Blueprint Racing Engines, getting the Aurora engine right before anyone else.

As I am sure you know, Jim Guthrie now runs an Indy Lights team for his son Sean.

#48 McGuire

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 09:49

Originally posted by whitewaterMkII


Of course it wouldn't devalue it in your opinion. indy uber alles and press credentials dictate your every post on anything and everything ims related.
Never mind that in the same thread you tell us all that the only reason JPM won was the car, thus devaluing his win, yet at the same time dismiss the fact that Laziers win was aganst the weakest field, with the most undependable cars in (all hail) i 500 history.

But, hey disagree with anything Bill posts and the labels come out.
CARTweenies.
:rotfl:


You need to a) separate the personal from the topical and b) stop being such a CARTweenie. That stuff is really childish. Juan drove an error-free race, as I said. All credit to him for that. But the win was due mainly to the car preparation and the race execution, and for that the team should get the credit, I would think. From the CARTweenie perpsective, it was just as much a CART victory as if Montoya had carried the car on his back.

So what do you think are you even arguing about?

I will point out again that Juan was not the quickest that day. Ray was quick early and passed Montoya at about lap 28-30, but then had a bad pit stop and crashed out trying to catch up. Lazier was quicker late (setting fast lap of the race) but was also playing catch-up and ran out of laps. These are not matters of opinion but of fact. Look at the lap charts. How did Montoya win? Not through supernatural driving but by being the best for 500 miles.

#49 Buford

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 13:07

When somebody calls you the lemming fool you are McGuire you say that is childish name-calling but when you call a racing fan a Cart weenie that makes you what besides the biggest hypocrite idiot I have ever seen on a racing forum Mr. History Revisionist? Sure there are dumber people like the IRL fan who said he quit watching CART because "that greasy foreigner insulted Indiana cows" but you are worse because you actually know something about the sport and you deliberately try to whitewash historical facts with your own version of lies and Tony George gonad licking

#50 Rob G

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 13:47

Originally posted by McGuire
stop being such a CARTweenie. That stuff is really childish.

Hypocrisy in only ten words. Well done.