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Vettel: Verstappen instead of Schumacher?


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#1 GiancarloF1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:40

So far, he is the biggest disappointment for me this season. I thought last year he will be the next Weltmeister after seeing his great wet races in the far east. But so far he looks like a great wet driver, but not very fast under normal circumstances. He also looks like a bit of error prone.

Maybe it's too early to tell this, but disappointing to see losing to Bourdais so big.

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#2 jimm

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:43

Maybe Bourdias is actually good also?

#3 Makarias

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:45

Or maybe Bourdais is a bit underrated, who knows. His competition in Champcar maybe wasn't too overwhelming, but at least he beat them all and regularly at that. It may just have taken him a few races to tune in to the F1 car, and the results are starting to show? He may well be a tough benchmark for Vettel, so if neither one dominates the other there shouldn't be anything to be ashamed about for either one.

#4 WOOT

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:46

Bourdais WILL dominate Vettel. You think Vettel is a good wet racer? Just you wait till you see what Bourdais does in the wet.

#5 Digitaldrug

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:48

I knew from the start that everyone was getting carried away too quickly with him. You need a lot of time to really be sure about a drivers talent. Boudaris has been easily quicker in the last two races and he looks very impressive. Thats no surprise though because you dont win 4 titles in a row in an international series without being very good.

#6 GiancarloF1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:51

Originally posted by WOOT
Bourdais WILL dominate Vettel. You think Vettel is a good wet racer? Just you wait till you see what Bourdais does in the wet.


If Bourdais is that good, I seriously underrated him. Vettel was stunning last year in both wet races. We will see.

#7 Mauseri

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 13:55

Originally posted by WOOT
Bourdais WILL dominate Vettel. You think Vettel is a good wet racer? Just you wait till you see what Bourdais does in the wet.

Vettel proved last year enough in the wet. He is good at that. But Bourdais is going to be a tough nut for him, it's good someone comes in F1 at older age and does a good job. After a tough start Bourdais seems to have clear mind how to improve the car, he has more experience and is intelligent as well.

As for Vettel, for sure is good, special? With more experience he will propably be one of the several drivers who would win races in a Ferrari.

#8 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 14:02

Maybe [ Speed + Liuzzi ] = [ Bourdais + Vettel ];)

Yes that's right Speed and Liuzzi are quick and should be in F1 :clap: Replaced by some other backmarkers, how pointless indeed :rolleyes: Another clean-out and I suppose Neel Jani and Robert Doornbos will be in to see out the final year of STR next season. :)

#9 molive

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 14:17

Vettel isnt that special and Boudais (as I always said) is really good.

Theres no doubt in my mind Sebastien has what it takes to be the next french champ, just give him a top car next year and you'll see.

#10 cathal

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 14:26

I too taught Vettel would have the better of Bourdais but Its turned out the other way round. Vettel obviously has a career in F1 in my opinion and with Ferrari already looking at him he's gotta start turning in the results.

Vettel is also taught to be earmarked for RBR next year, probably to replace coulthard but Bourdais may have another thing to say about that.

#11 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 14:32

Originally posted by Digitaldrug
I knew from the start that everyone was getting carried away too quickly with him. You need a lot of time to really be sure about a drivers talent. Boudaris has been easily quicker in the last two races and he looks very impressive. Thats no surprise though because you dont win 4 titles in a row in an international series without being very good.


I do not agree that it takes a few races to see if a driver is really really good for all drivers, some walk in and are fast as can be right away, and then move on to become multiple WDC's.

Schumacher did some 200 meters in his first race and was immediately the most sought after commodity.

Alonso in Minardi was awesome, the car was not worth anything but he placed that car better than could be expeted race after race.

I think that both Vettel and Bourdais are really good drivers, and there is no shame for either in being beaten closely over a season.

:cool:

#12 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 14:33

I would not be surprised to see both Bourdais and Vettel at Red Bull next season.

:cool:

#13 Group B

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 14:51

Originally posted by jimm
Maybe Bourdias is actually good also?

A bit of both I think. SB is a class act while SV was given a lot of early hype to live up to. Give him time.

#14 glorius&victorius

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 14:53

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
I would not be surprised to see both Bourdais and Vettel at Red Bull next season.

:cool:


yeah those real Red Bull drivers are crap!


By the way, is there some serious contact between Bourdais and Ferrari, for post-Massa or post-Kimi era?? I thought I heard ITV or RAI saying something about it.... (I watched the qualy on live TV with RAI and with 1 minute lag on ITV web feed :) It got a bit confusing in the end...

But any news on Bourdais - Ferrari link?

#15 shonguiz

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 15:02

I have already said it and i will say it again: This guy is overrated as hell, sure he's still a rookie and can still progress but all this BS decribing him as the new MS is irritating me at the highest level.

#16 DarthWillie

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 15:05

Boudais' manager is Jean Todt's son, that could be the link?

#17 inaki

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 15:11

Gentlemen, Sebastian Bourdais is a seriously good, proven and experimented multichampion in Champ Car racing, obviously it is not a F1 world championship, but he is potentially a star. He is a great driver. Vettel is a good driver also, much younger and with less experience.

#18 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 16:17

Originally posted by glorius&victorius


yeah those real Red Bull drivers are crap!


By the way, is there some serious contact between Bourdais and Ferrari, for post-Massa or post-Kimi era?? I thought I heard ITV or RAI saying something about it.... (I watched the qualy on live TV with RAI and with 1 minute lag on ITV web feed :) It got a bit confusing in the end...

But any news on Bourdais - Ferrari link?


I am not saying they are crap, however both have been in F1 for a long time, and the results are not there, both Sebastian's are seen as driver moving upwards, Coulthard and Webber have both shown their best already, and would not be that surprising were Red Bull to let Coulthard go, move Webber to Toro Rosso, place the Sebastians at Red Bull and promote their next Red Bull Driver search driver at Toro Rosso next to Webber at Toro Rosso.

Not sure if he is affiliated with them, but were I Red Bull I would sign Alvaro Parente for that.

:cool:

#19 BMW_F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 16:18

I never understood the idea the Vettel was going to be faster than Bourdais.. Where did it came from?

it beats me..

:confused:

Probably Speed and Vettel are at the same level... I reckon Vettel was not faster than Liuzzi..

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#20 Juan Kerr

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 16:40

Originally posted by jimm
Maybe Bourdias is actually good also?

You hit the nail on the head there and I'm glad there are some people who realise this. Bourdais isn't some yardstick for Vettel comparisons to other drivers, people look for the negative too much e.g. if Bourdais beats Vettel, Vettel is rubbish but if he beats Bourdais Vettel is the next Schumacher. Its about time people made some more positive comments like Bourdais perhaps being extremely good if he happens to beat Vettel.

#21 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 16:42

Originally posted by BMW_F1
I never understood the idea the Vettel was going to be faster than Bourdais.. Where did it came from?

it beats me..

:confused:

Probably Speed and Vettel are at the same level... I reckon Vettel was not faster than Liuzzi..


Speed and Liuzzi did not improve the Toro Rosso, and Speed was allgedly difficult to work with. Vettel immediately improved the performance of the team, so to me he does seem a much better driver than both Speed and Liuzzi.

Bourdais is good, and there is no suprise in seeing him being the equal to Vettel.

:cool:

#22 Lantern

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 16:50

OK guys. This is my opinion.

I think Vettel is blinding fast. I think Seebass is fast as well, but gives WAAAAAAAAAAAY better feedback than his ultra young teammate.

When you add that they are in a small team that is struggling you get the gap as it stands.


If they were in a bigger better team I think the gap would either shrink or even switch to Vettel's side.

#23 schuey100

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:05

Vettel needs a bit more experience. He's green but he'll get there. Bourdias, nothing special about him at all. I've seen him live in other formula ind he's never really been all that impressive. He's looking good because Vettel is taking so much time to get adjusted but I doubt he'll be around in F1 for too much longer.

#24 Imperial

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:06

Putting it blunty, if Vettel wasn't German nobody would be calling him the new Schumacher.

He drove one of the best cars at Indianapolis last year, to get in the points was is a nice result in anyone's debut but to be frank it should be expected in a BMW.

Since that race he's royally ****ed up in once race (I don't think I need to say which race), did better in the next (although his result was a bit fortuitous), and so far this season he's done no better than the averahe rookie in his first full season, especially given his car.

I know this thread is about Vettel, but...Bourdais was given a bit too much criticism coming up against Vettel, as if Vettel was going to blow him away through the entire season.

Given Bourdais' recent CART history that was always a laughable notion to me. He had to adapt to the F1 car and it's taken several weeks to do so, but he seems to have done it pretty much. You only have to listen to Bourdais on the team radio during practice to understand how smart the guy is, how he knows what he needs from his team and car, and he's not afraid to tell them. Seriously. He's not disrespectful on the radio, but it's an eye opener to hear a driver talk the way Bourdais does on the radio. He's not ****ing around by any means, the guy is serious. I have no doubts he'll move onwards and upwards from Toro Rosso and so what if he becomes the next guy to win a championship in his 30's. That never stopped Michael Schumacher did it?

#25 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:12

Originally posted by schuey100
Vettel needs a bit more experience. He's green but he'll get there. Bourdias, nothing special about him at all. I've seen him live in other formula ind he's never really been all that impressive. He's looking good because Vettel is taking so much time to get adjusted but I doubt he'll be around in F1 for too much longer.


Then I would venture you have been paying attention.

1997 - 2nd in French Formula Renault (4 wins)
1998 - 6th in French F3 (6 wins)
1999 - French F3 champion.
2000 - 9th in F3000 (best finish 2nd)
2001 - 4th in F3000 (1 win)
2002 - F3000 Champion.
2003 - 4th in Rookie season in Champcar
2004 - Champcar champion
2005 - Champcar champion
2006 - Champcar champion
2007 - Champcar champion

Have shown more than most Formula drivers since 1997.

:cool:

#26 BMW_F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:13

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Speed and Liuzzi did not improve the Toro Rosso, and Speed was allgedly difficult to work with. Vettel immediately improved the performance of the team, so to me he does seem a much better driver than both Speed and Liuzzi.

Bourdais is good, and there is no suprise in seeing him being the equal to Vettel.

:cool:


that is only what you know from what becomes public. Berger and the other douchebag could not treat their drivers respecfully. They were bashing them when their car was shit..

#27 IOU 16

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:15

Originally posted by V8 Fireworks
Maybe [ Speed + Liuzzi ] = [ Bourdais + Vettel ];)

Yes that's right Speed and Liuzzi are quick and should be in F1 :clap: Replaced by some other backmarkers, how pointless indeed :rolleyes: Another clean-out and I suppose Neel Jani and Robert Doornbos will be in to see out the final year of STR next season. :)


I do not get your post, but all those drivers listed are amazing drivers. Speed is proabably the only questionable on. Doornbos put up great result in Champ Car last year and did so in 2006 with Red Bull Racing in the handfull of races he ran replacing Christian Klien.

#28 schuey100

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:17

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


Then I would venture you have been paying attention.

1997 - 2nd in French Formula Renault (4 wins)
1998 - 6th in French F3 (6 wins)
1999 - French F3 champion.
2000 - 9th in F3000 (best finish 2nd)
2001 - 4th in F3000 (1 win)
2002 - F3000 Champion.
2003 - 4th in Rookie season in Champcar
2004 - Champcar champion
2005 - Champcar champion
2006 - Champcar champion
2007 - Champcar champion

Have shown more than most Formula drivers since 1997.

:cool:


I've been watching very closely :) He's not a terrible driver by any means but he's not got that something 'extra' that differentiates the top 10 from the rest. He's being made to look good because of his team mate, give it a few months and things will change.

I hope he stays in F1, maybe testing in a few years, he's a really nice guy but I do hope that a top team remembers why they never took him on in the past 12 years and aren't taken in with the current hype.

#29 noikeee

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:21

How about everyone calm the **** down, there isn't even enough races and qualifying sessions for us to read a trend on their performance. It was only 3 races ago that Vettel made it to Q3 and Bourdais didn't even manage to go past Q1, ffs. Sure it is worrying the amount of crashes Vettel has had so far, but this is ridiculous. And it's not like Bourdais has had a huge advantage in the races so far neither, it's 2-1 on the "avoiding crashes" scoreboard.

Nevermind the fact the guy is 20 years old and Bourdais is one hell of a driver too. I'm not sure he's a Schumacher yet, but calling him "a Verstappen" is just plain wrong. Forgotten the wet races last year already? It looks like some people here have no attention span whatsoever.

#30 Digitaldrug

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:31

Originally posted by Imperial

Given Bourdais' recent CART history that was always a laughable notion to me. He had to adapt to the F1 car and it's taken several weeks to do so, but he seems to have done it pretty much. You only have to listen to Bourdais on the team radio during practice to understand how smart the guy is, how he knows what he needs from his team and car, and he's not afraid to tell them. Seriously. He's not disrespectful on the radio, but it's an eye opener to hear a driver talk the way Bourdais does on the radio. He's not ****ing around by any means, the guy is serious. I have no doubts he'll move onwards and upwards from Toro Rosso and so what if he becomes the next guy to win a championship in his 30's. That never stopped Michael Schumacher did it?


Ye, hes definately impressed me everytime ive heard him directing the team on the radio. And he aint talking hes directing. He definately knows what hes talking about. He had the repuation of being an intelligent thinking driver so Im not too surprised there. From memory he barely had any practice track time for the first two gps with the car always breaking down, so now with good track time hes really doing the business. His age isnt an issue. Damon Hill didnt join Williams until he was 31 or 32 and he did well.

#31 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 17:52

Originally posted by glorius&victorius


yeah those real Red Bull drivers are crap!


By the way, is there some serious contact between Bourdais and Ferrari, for post-Massa or post-Kimi era?? I thought I heard ITV or RAI saying something about it.... (I watched the qualy on live TV with RAI and with 1 minute lag on ITV web feed :) It got a bit confusing in the end...

But any news on Bourdais - Ferrari link?


Brundle made a comment on ITV during qualifying and it wasn't Ferrari showing interest in Bordais, but in Vettel and thats why he had to pull up his socks.

#32 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 18:22

Originally posted by BMW_F1


that is only what you know from what becomes public. Berger and the other douchebag could not treat their drivers respecfully. They were bashing them when their car was shit..


Well I watched the races, read the journalists reports and saw the fortunes of the team improve the second that Vettel started racing for them.

I belive that a team that makes no progress with allegedly talented drivers in 2 seasons, and then make progress leaps and bounds in 4 races after placing a new complete rookie in the car is replacing the driver with a better driver.

Neither of us 'know' anything, but I have eyes and can see what happens on track.

I do not like Alonso, but he is a supremely gifted driver, I try not to let my likes and dislikes colour how I grade the drivers, it is well known that I do not rate Trulli as a racer, but I see him as the best pure qualifier since Senna, I find Kimi extremely boring as a person, but he is extremely fast, highly talented, and I seriously think of him as a throwback to the 1980ies style drivers, he lives by his talent and apply himself less than the other drivers, and still get result through amazing talent.

Speed and Liuuzi were failures as F1 race drivers, and insisting that they were not is closing your eyes to the realities playing out in front of us race weekend after race weekend.

:cool:

#33 glorius&victorius

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 18:30

Originally posted by Digitaldrug


Ye, hes definately impressed me everytime ive heard him directing the team on the radio. And he aint talking hes directing. He definately knows what hes talking about. He had the repuation of being an intelligent thinking driver so Im not too surprised there. From memory he barely had any practice track time for the first two gps with the car always breaking down, so now with good track time hes really doing the business. His age isnt an issue. Damon Hill didnt join Williams until he was 31 or 32 and he did well.


the radio conversations are indeed nice to hear.. he seems to know what he wants and really convinces in getting that. perhaps its a matter of not hearing enough radio conversations like this from other teams...



#34 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:11

Originally posted by micra_k10

Vettel proved last year enough in the wet. He is good at that. But Bourdais is going to be a tough nut for him, it's good someone comes in F1 at older age and does a good job. After a tough start Bourdais seems to have clear mind how to improve the car, he has more experience and is intelligent as well.


Remember, Vettel managed to get into Q3 in Australia, where it was dry. In Brazil, IIRC, he was also inside the top-ten on the start grid. And neither of the sessions were run under rain. So there's no reason to say that Vettel is good only in the wet. The German is also very young and therefore inexperieced. The Bahrain track was new to him (he was a third driver for BMW, but had an outing only in Melbourne and Sepang). I think that a he will be one of the Grand Prix protagonists in the future.


As for Bourdais, the way he is performing against his teammate is a surprise for everybody, the Frenchman including. It just shows, what a silly mistake the teams made, when they did not find a seat for him earlier. IMHO, he still can make it to the top, under the right circumstances.

P.S. Bourdais qualified in the first sixteen in Bahrain and again in Spain, so the guy who says in his post which says that the Frenchman did not is wrong.

#35 WOOT

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:20

The Vettel hype with hurt him. Everyone expected him to do well against Bourdais and now when he doesn't his stock goes down.

#36 BMW_F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:24

Originally posted by Andrew, Ford &F1



As for Bourdais, the way he is performing against his teammate is a surprise for everybody,


Oh really? And why is that ?

Speak for yourself.

#37 Sound of Speed

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 06:30

He's just an overrated driver.

#38 tormave

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 06:43

I really hope STR can get their car sorted. With RBR chassis, Ferrari engine and those two drivers they could really be amazing. I wonder if the now public plans to sell the team are already affecting the performance? To me the STR driver pair is one of the best in the grid, which is a bit silly given how much problems they are having with the package.

#39 LoudHoward

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 07:23

If they stay close, let the winner of this years Bourdais/Vettel battle join Webber at RBR next year. If Bourdais/Vettel beats Webber in '09 then the other one should join RBR in 2010, if not, they can both bugger off to DTM or whatever :)

As for the topic at hand, I think Vettel has been way overhyped, but I don't think he's bad, he's obviously very talented. Overall I think Red Bull would be pretty happy with three of their four drivers at the moment...

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#40 HoldenRT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 07:27

Vettel was dissappointing in his first race with BMW at Indy. He did ok at STR toward the end of the year but that was against Luizzi, who doesn't even have a race seat anymore. He has shown some good raw pace from time to time and is good in the wet. Bourdais has good racecraft but had question marks over pace but it looks like he is finding it and it'll be interesting to watch the battle all season.

Vettel is only young and has great potential but he has been hyped a bit.

#41 StefanV

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 07:28

I have for a long time had the feeling that Mario Theissen is constantly holding a blow torch against Nicks ass, and he did not try to hide the disappointment he felt by Nicks qualifying yesterday. I always thought that Vettel would replace Nick, but I sincerely hope that Bourdais get the chance first. Vettel is a great driver, but he needs a couple of seasons to mature. He is young. Very young. I remember when I was that young. No, I don't remember.

#42 BlackCat

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 18:43

5 completed laps in 4 races - its no coincidence any more, its mental problem. boy is in wrong league.

#43 scheivlak

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 18:45

Originally posted by BlackCat
5 completed laps in 4 races - its no coincidence any more, its mental problem. boy is in wrong league.

Did you watch the race?
He was just unlucky today.

#44 Frans

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 07:35

:confused: I don't get the title ?? :confused: :down:

#45 potmotr

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:18

Originally posted by Sound of Speed
He's just an overrated driver.


Bourdais? Over-rated? I couldn't agree less.
If he was highly rated he would have been in F1 back in 2003, not 2008.

#46 potmotr

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:18

Originally posted by scheivlak
Did you watch the race?
He was just unlucky today.


I think he is really suffering for his poor qualifying results. He's stuck in the midfield minefield.

#47 jimm

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 15:48

Originally posted by potmotr


I think he is really suffering for his poor qualifying results. He's stuck in the midfield minefield.


You know he is not in a Mclaren, Ferrari or BMW don't you? Everyone else is stuck in the midfield or worse.

#48 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:07

Originally posted by BMW_F1


Oh really? And why is that ?

Speak for yourself.


In a pre-season interview for f1.com the Frenchman said that it would be very hard for him to beat Vettel, who had been around for some time is blindigly quick and a good qualifier.
Also, the multiple ChampCar champ said that he did not put any aims for himself for the up-coming season and asked his fans not too expect too much of him. Then in an interview for Autosport.com Berger said that Bourdais would struggle in qualifying. That means that not only I was surprised with the Frenchman's pace, so was the Frenchman himself :).

#49 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:22

Originally posted by Frans
:confused: I don't get the title ?? :confused: :down:


It means that Vettel sucks instead of 0wn.

#50 BMW_F1

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:23

he was just being modest and setting up expectations. that's all.