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What happens to McLaren?


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#1 Architrion

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:15

seems they have loosen it completely this season.... (fanboy mode on...) I guess because they're missing someone's 6 tenths!! :lol: :lol: (fanboy mode off)

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#2 Ligier26

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:24

Do you have a switch to turn off your 'imbecile mode' as well?

:rolleyes:

#3 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:32

Nothing really happened to McLaren, except for them being slightly off the pace in comparison with Ferrari and BMW :) But the season is still quite long and they can make a come-back. May be they will start with a heavy fuel-load tomorrow.

In any case, McLaren won Spanish GP in it's every successful season. So, we'll have to wait till tomorrow to find out the real situation.

#4 BMW_F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:44

Two things..
There is no longer any exchange of secret text messages with valuable ferrari information going on and perhaps Lewis and kova are not very good with technical feedback as Alonso was.
My 2 cents.

#5 Architrion

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:44

"Ligier 26
Do you have a switch to turn off your 'imbecile mode' as well?"

Hey man, being so angry is perfect for a heart attack. You should take it easy.... :kiss:

#6 pasadena

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:45

They simply reap what they sow last year by not treating FA properly and forcing an inexperienced rookie into a role he wasn't ready for.

#7 bankoq

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:47

The answer is quite obvious. Both Lewis & Heikke are lacking experience in setuping and developing the car.

#8 Risil

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 19:51

It's difficult to say exactly what's wrong with Mclaren this year. On the one hand, they have an inexperienced driver pairing, which might explain their setup difficulties, but also it should be remembered that their car wasn't particularly fast in 2006. In fact, if it wasn't for Ferrari's supposed wind tunnel accident, I would say that this year's Mclaren isn't much slower than the Ferrari than last year's one was. Certainly Mclaren were blown away in Bahrain and Spain, and would've been more so if Ferrari's single-lap pace/starts weren't so poor.

Too early to say, and most likely it's a combination of all these factors plus some others.. :)

#9 CWeil

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 20:02

Or maybe that they are nearly always weaker every other year?

#10 manodemono

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 20:09

While I'm not saying Lewis & Kova are incapable of setting up a race car, FA does have 2 WDCs & in all likelihood means he has more " race winning " set up experience than both Lewis & Kova.

To what degree does not having FA at MAC this year affect their competitiveness, frankly I don't know but what I do know is that today at quali :

Ferrari's combined( FM & KR ) Q2 times were fastest & beat the Renault Q2 combo (FA & NP) by 0.33sec
BMW's combined(RK & He) Q2 times were 2nd fastest & beat the Renault Q2 combo (FA & NP) by 0.286sec Mac's combined(Ko & Le) Q2 times were 3rd fastest & beat the Renault Q2 combo (FA & NP) by 0.056sec

Ferrari's FM was 0.2 sec faster than KR in Q2
BMW's RB was 0.218 sec faster than He in Q2
Mac's Ko was 0.008 sec faster than Le in Q2
Renault's FA was 0.09 sec faster than NP in Q2


Said simply, the Renaults have gained considerably & now the Renaults may now be roughly as fast as the Macs and both are about 0.3 sec behind the Ferraris & BMWs

#11 WOOT

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 20:14

Originally posted by manodemono
While I'm not saying Lewis & Kova are incapable of setting up a race car, FA does have 2 WDCs & in all likelihood means he has more " race winning " set up experience than both Lewis & Kova.

To what degree does not having FA at MAC this year affect their competitiveness, frankly I don't know but what I do know is that today at quali :

Ferrari's combined( FM & KR ) Q2 times were fastest & beat the Renault Q2 combo (FA & NP) by 0.33sec
BMW's combined(RK & He) Q2 times were 2nd fastest & beat the Renault Q2 combo (FA & NP) by 0.286sec Mac's combined(Ko & Le) Q2 times were 3rd fastest & beat the Renault Q2 combo (FA & NP) by 0.056sec

Ferrari's FM was 0.2 sec faster than KR in Q2
BMW's RB was 0.218 sec faster than He in Q2
Mac's Ko was 0.008 sec faster than Le in Q2
Renault's FA was 0.09 sec faster than NP in Q2


Said simply, the Renaults have gained considerably & now the Renaults may now be roughly as fast as the Macs and both are about 0.3 sec behind the Ferraris & BMWs


The only reason Renault have gained so much ground is that they are now using the so called j-dampers that all the other teams have been using for a long time. It's a MAJOR Mechanical update. Alonso's setup has nothing to do with it. The j-dampers have been in development even before Alonso joined Renault.

#12 CWeil

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 20:18

I really don't think the Renaults are actually as fast as the McLarens fuel for fuel. No way.

#13 manodemono

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 21:49

Originally posted by CWeil
I really don't think the Renaults are actually as fast as the McLarens fuel for fuel. No way.


At the first 3 races this year the Renaults have been way behind the Macs.

The data on hand at Q2 Barcelona suggests that they are still behind, fuel to fuel but that difference may now be at less than 1/10 of a second on this track.

How much of this is down to FA & NP having super laps during today's qualifying compared to Lewis' & Kovy's driving we don't know. We also don't know if today the Renault team managed to set up their cars considerably better than the other teams or what has caused this to be so.

In any case, things haven't looked this good for Renault in over 1 year.

#14 Atreiu

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 22:09

They took a wrong gamble when they decided to lengthen the wheelbase, I guestimate.

#15 CWeil

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 22:10

Wishful thinking that they made some sudden huge jump that will last. A step forward sure, but flattered by the McLarens having a bad & heavy day. Alonso did a good lap but it's pretty obvious he's really light.

#16 Mauseri

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 22:31

Originally posted by Architrion
seems they have loosen it completely this season.... (fanboy mode on...) I guess because they're missing someone's 6 tenths!! :lol: :lol: (fanboy mode off)

Ummm... ummm... let me guess Kimi's 6 tents :smoking:

In the crucial moment of races he can start pulling 6 tents faster out of nowhere :cool:

#17 BMW_F1

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 22:47

Originally posted by BMW_F1
Two things..
There is no longer any exchange of secret text messages with valuable ferrari information going on and perhaps Lewis and kova are not very good with technical feedback as Alonso was.
My 2 cents.


Oh and I forgot to add, it appears that BMW have better drivers at the moment.

#18 Nathan

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 22:56

McLaren lately seem to be an every other year team . 2001 on, 2002 off, 2003 on, 2004 off, 2005 on, 2006 off, 2007 on, 2008 off. They will challenge for the title again next year :)

#19 WOOT

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 23:03

Originally posted by Nathan
McLaren lately seem to be an every other year team . 2001 on, 2002 off, 2003 on, 2004 off, 2005 on, 2006 off, 2007 on, 2008 off. They will challenge for the title again next year :)


Mostly because Tim Goss gets to design a car every other year and his cars always seem to underperform.

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#20 tahadar

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 23:23

Originally posted by WOOT


Mostly because Tim Goss gets to design a car every other year and his cars always seem to underperform.

yeah, i dont really understand why mclaren do this. they would lose continuity from year to year because the philosophy might be changing year to year. does any other team do this?

#21 Kami P

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 23:27

It's that nutter Ron Dennis...can't stand him and his fake personality.

#22 mclarensmps

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 23:35

Originally posted by tahadar

yeah, i dont really understand why mclaren do this. they would lose continuity from year to year because the philosophy might be changing year to year. does any other team do this?


renault

#23 Lontano

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 23:45

Originally posted by tahadar

yeah, i dont really understand why mclaren do this. they would lose continuity from year to year because the philosophy might be changing year to year. does any other team do this?


renault does it, and probably every team that can afford it has 2 design teams.

#24 Valve Bounce

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Posted 26 April 2008 - 23:52

We'll know after the first round of pit stops. Until then, the jury is still out.

Here's what Alonso had to say: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/66929

#25 inaki

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:04

Originally posted by WOOT


The only reason Renault have gained so much ground is that they are now using the so called j-dampers that all the other teams have been using for a long time. It's a MAJOR Mechanical update. Alonso's setup has nothing to do with it. The j-dampers have been in development even before Alonso joined Renault.


It is not the only reason. That can give them a couple of tenths, specially in braking, were R28 was a car with special balance problems. We knew that, and not every team were using them. The best teams as Ferrari, Macca, BMW, Toyota, Williams and RBR were using them. Renault were not using them to avoid cheating accusations after McLaren affair and hearing. But Renault was almost a second behind during 1st 3 GPs and you have to take into account that rest of teams have also done a 1st major upgrade in aero package after coming from Aus/Mal/Bah so they have also progressed. But here is where the driver's role is key, in leading the testing direction/feedback to help the engineers. This was said by Bob Bell during last week's test in Barcelona.

#26 dawg_7529

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:14

I believe 2007 mclaren speed was down to their dampers, a Koni design and not mclarens own. And their ability to make their tyres work. their internal problems didnt help in winning the championship either.

2008 it seems to me a lot of teams catched up in terms of suspension and especially slow corner speed like bmw and ferrari. Well see at monaco and canada just how much.
I also get the impression lewis and kova aint good set up jockeys whereas alonso experience did mclaren a lot of good.

Mind you im not exactly a mclaren fan but i tried to be as objective as possible.

#27 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:17

Originally posted by dawg_7529
I believe 2007 mclaren speed was down to their dampers, a Koni design and not mclarens own. And their ability to make their tyres work. their internal problems didnt help in winning the championship either.

2008 it seems to me a lot of teams catched up in terms of suspension and especially slow corner speed like bmw and ferrari. I also get the impression lewis and kova aint good set up jockeys whereas alonso experience did mclaren a lot of good.

Mind you im not exactly a mclaren fan but i tried to be as objective as possible.


Like I said, you don't get to F1 without knowing how to setup a car. Especially since in junior formulae all the cars are identical and knowing how to set them up is the only advantage you can get over your rivals.

#28 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:17

Nothing wrong with 3rd or 4th in WCC for mighty Maccas :clap: Go the Maccas :up:

#29 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:18

I wonder if anyone questioned Kimi's setup skills while he was having bad seasons at McLaren?

#30 mclarensmps

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:20

Originally posted by WOOT
I wonder if anyone questioned Kimi's setup skills while he was having bad seasons at McLaren?

.
Because anybody except Alonso who drove for McLaren, sucked apparantly.

#31 Will

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:25

Little bit too early to jump to conclusions, after all Lewis did well in Aus and the car seemed smoother on the track today than in Asia with less wheel locking, despite it being not reflected in the second half of Q3. We shall see what happens in the race. It seems that the MP-23 is quite hard to get a perfect setup on, to a certain like Ferrari in the first half of 2007 and there are also some issues about getting the best performance of the option tyre. Also Lewis and Heikki are less confident in nailing setups than Alonso, that will however come with experience. It seems that the MP-23 is fundamentally quite a quick car so if they can sort out the tyre issues, braking stability and balance I am confident that they will hit form again. If Lewis regains a car like he had in Aus where he can push without having to overdrive he will again cause his competition a lot of problems. McLaren's policy tends to be that of incremental frequent upgrades rather than wholesale infrequent changes so they have capacity to improve again relative to the competition.

#32 dawg_7529

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:26

Originally posted by The Big Guns

.
Because anybody except Alonso who drove for McLaren, sucked apparantly.


Its more down to the fact that alonso drove slow, medium and ultimately championship winning cars in various settings and conditions so hed knew what exactly he wanted from a car. Untill his arrival mclaren wasnt exactly a ferrari or renault beater.

I also think that kimi isnt a real set-up king, judging that after more than a year, hes still searching for a better setup, especially over one lap. Dc was a guy notorious for not liking some tracks and didnt know how to improve. Mika was also more raw speed than technical wiz, like juan pablo montoya.

#33 VWadict

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:32

Originally posted by Ligier26
Do you have a switch to turn off your 'imbecile mode' as well?

:rolleyes:



You're the person more in need of this button, being egression a clear symptom of stupidity :down:

#34 Nitropower

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:34

I think they are missing effective feedback from two young drivers. They still have the heads, they have the money, facilities, techonology, car parts. But they need some clues on setup. In that sense they might be missing Alonso's work (that doesn't mean he is indispensable, but they might be missing that).

#35 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:34

Originally posted by VWadict



You're the person more in need of this button, being egression a clear symptom of stupidity :down:




:rolleyes:

#36 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:35

Originally posted by Nitropower
I think they are missing effective feedback from two young drivers. They still have the heads, they have the money, but they need some clues on setup. In that sense they might be missing Alonso's work (that doesn't mean he is indispensable, but they might be missing that).


Argh I keep saying this. They've had to race in junior series where the cars are identical and the only advantage you can get over others is knowing how to setup your cars. You don't get to F1 without knowing how to setup.

#37 ashnathan

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:37

Well the only reason i can see for Mclaren's lack of development is the fact they've used the same design philosophy for years now, the basic outlook of the car has not changed since 2005, all be it the regulatory changes, and a few front end tweaks eg. front wing, skinny nose etc.

To me, there isnt really much more Mclaren can actually do to this spec car to make it faster, they've reached the end of the development cycle for this model and try as they may, which im positive they are, they just cant make the leaps of other teams.

The 2005 was the best car of the field all be it, unreliable, thing i didnt understand was mclaren had the best front end grip and aero wise in 2005, then went back to the failed skinny pin nose, still to this day have no clue why they did that, if it isnt broken, why 'try' fix it?

#38 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:39

Originally posted by kids like ash
Well the only reason i can see for Mclaren's lack of development is the fact they've used the same design philosophy for years now, the basic outlook of the car has not changed since 2005, all be it the regulatory changes, and a few front end tweaks eg. front wing, skinny nose etc.

To me, there isnt really much more Mclaren can actually do to this spec car to make it faster, they've reached the end of the development cycle for this model and try as they may, which im positive they are, they just cant make the leaps of other teams.

The 2005 was the best car of the field all be it, unreliable, thing i didnt understand was mclaren had the best front end grip and aero wise in 2005, then went back to the failed skinny pin nose, still to this day have no clue why they did that, if it isnt broken, why 'try' fix it?


It has been discussed. McLaren have different head designers each year and they probably have different design philosophies.

#39 Lontano

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:49

Originally posted by WOOT


Argh I keep saying this. They've had to race in junior series where the cars are identical and the only advantage you can get over others is knowing how to setup your cars. You don't get to F1 without knowing how to setup.


so you asume all drivers have EXACTLY the same skills in finding setups? They are also the best drivers in the world, that doesn't mean that they are all exactly as good as each other.

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#40 Lontano

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 00:50

Originally posted by kids like ash
Well the only reason i can see for Mclaren's lack of development is the fact they've used the same design philosophy for years now, the basic outlook of the car has not changed since 2005, all be it the regulatory changes, and a few front end tweaks eg. front wing, skinny nose etc.

To me, there isnt really much more Mclaren can actually do to this spec car to make it faster, they've reached the end of the development cycle for this model and try as they may, which im positive they are, they just cant make the leaps of other teams.

The 2005 was the best car of the field all be it, unreliable, thing i didnt understand was mclaren had the best front end grip and aero wise in 2005, then went back to the failed skinny pin nose, still to this day have no clue why they did that, if it isnt broken, why 'try' fix it?


Probably they know more about their car than you.

#41 Nitropower

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 01:00

Originally posted by WOOT


Argh I keep saying this. They've had to race in junior series where the cars are identical and the only advantage you can get over others is knowing how to setup your cars. You don't get to F1 without knowing how to setup.


So you are comparing to set up a Gp2 or F3000 car with setting up a F1 car?
Besides, not everyone gets the same experience on setting up cars. If you have struggled with cars which actually were iron balls to make them faster you might have learned more than some other guys that has had quite better cars than you in his life.

#42 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 01:04

Originally posted by Nitropower


So you are comparing to set up a Gp2 or F3000 car with setting up a F1 car?
Besides, not everyone gets the same experience on setting up cars. If you have struggled with cars which actually were iron balls to make them faster you might have learned more than some other guys that has had quite better cars than you in his life.


That's what I am saying. Since clearly the GP2 cars are the same at the start, the drivers who can set them up the best will come out on top.

#43 Nitropower

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 01:25

Originally posted by WOOT


That's what I am saying. Since clearly the GP2 cars are the same at the start, the drivers who can set them up the best will come out on top.


I'm not sure to what extent they are the same, and the way you said it sounds like setup was made only by drivers. At that age, when they are not even 20, it's more than likely that setup belongs to engineers than to driver feedback. If you have good engineers and they give you the best setup for the car, you won't learn too much. If the car doesn't change, once you know how to set it up best, there's not much to learn, if you compare to F1.

#44 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 01:53

Originally posted by Nitropower


I'm not sure to what extent they are the same, and the way you said it sounds like setup was made only by drivers. At that age, when they are not even 20, it's more than likely that setup belongs to engineers than to driver feedback. If you have good engineers and they give you the best setup for the car, you won't learn too much. If the car doesn't change, once you know how to set it up best, there's not much to learn, if you compare to F1.


Various tracks need various setups.

#45 SlateGray

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:16

Originally posted by BMW_F1
Two things..
There is no longer any exchange of secret text messages with valuable ferrari information going on and perhaps Lewis and kova are not very good with technical feedback as Alonso was.
My 2 cents.


I agree take away Alonso's WDC input and the stream of cheat from Ferrari and mac are left with an error prone over hyped sophomore and his underrated sophomore sidekick lost in the wilderness, boys lost in a man's game a champions game, how far will they fall?

#46 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 02:19

Originally posted by SlateGray


I agree take away Alonso's WDC input and the stream of cheat from Ferrari and mac are left with an error prone over hyped sophomore and his underrated sophomore sidekick lost in the wilderness, boys lost in a man's game a champions game, how far will they fall?


I wonder if Renault's jump in performance is due to the McLaren documents they stole.

#47 mclarensmps

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 04:29

Originally posted by SlateGray


I agree take away Alonso's WDC input and the stream of cheat from Ferrari and mac are left with an error prone over hyped sophomore and his underrated sophomore sidekick lost in the wilderness, boys lost in a man's game a champions game, how far will they fall?


:stoned: :lol: :lol: :lol:

delusional.

#48 dawg_7529

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:09

Originally posted by WOOT


documents they stole.


Hmm, i seriously doubt you could convince a judge this is what factually happened.

one counter argument i could think of is: if that was the case, how come renault suddenly leaped ahead of mclaren? Them stealing mclaren suspension technology brought them more than mclaren themselves? hmmm.

#49 alfa1

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:17

Originally posted by Nitropower
I think they are missing effective feedback from two young drivers. They still have the heads, they have the money...



Nobody has mentioned yet that McLaren have a few pennies less in their piggy bank this year.

Only a few months ago in these forums, I thought it was generally accepted that this would hurt the car development. That is, the car would have been released in January the same as it would have been without the fine, but later on during the season it would lag because there is less money to spend on R&D.

#50 dawg_7529

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 05:25

the fine was about the difference between williams f1's budget and mclarens normal budget. i.e. they dont feel any pain from the fine, wich a fine should add as a rule.