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Ferrari's success


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Poll: Ferrari's success (277 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. best drivers (5 votes [1.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.81%

  2. best car (110 votes [39.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.71%

  3. both of the above options (140 votes [50.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.54%

  4. other (22 votes [7.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.94%

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#1 Mauseri

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 15:36

Why are they winning so much recently? In timing sheet it all looks quite close, but they still end up taking another one-two. Poll.

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#2 riffola

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 15:41

The gap to Lewis would've been a lot more if Ferrari weren't nursing their engines for the next race.

#3 mclarensmps

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 15:42

I would say currently the best car and the best driver (and on form) in Kimi Raikkonnen.


Edit: In my heart, the first thing that came to mind was the best Lawyers :lol:

#4 Arion

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 15:56

They would have won by a even greater margin if not for the SC, I think they will be even more dominant in Turkey :

#5 StefanV

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:23

I voted "other". I think that had McLaren not been fined $100 million (that is a rdidicolous sum of money) AND had their 2008 car not been revised by Max, the battles this year would have been closer. Had Max not intervened with the force he did last season, McLaren would maybe have taken both championships. I do not think it is fair to not give FIA some credit for the success Ferrari enjoys.

Phew, now I got that off my chest.

#6 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:24

best car. even massa has no trouble beating mclarens at the moment.

#7 Group B

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:28

Best car, obviously, but also good drivers. KR is good as good as anyone on the grid over a season and FM isn't too far behind.

#8 Josta

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:30

They have the best car over a race distance. In quali it is very close with McLaren and BMW, but the Ferrari takes longer to get heat into their tyres which is good for the race, but not so good for the quali.

#9 giacomo

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:31

Domination is always the result of having the best car.

Also other drivers than Raikkonen and Massa would win in the current Ferrari.

#10 Sakae

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:31

Combination of all;

Experienced team
Good Management
Well trained crisis-response team
Good race engineers
Above average (of F1 pool) drivers
Good car

#11 GiancarloF1

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:34

Best car. The drivers are far away from the best, and they are overrated.

#12 Sébastien

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:35

Best car and very good drivers who together make a very good team, also McLaren fumbling (as usual) and BMW not yet being right up there with Ferrari make the Maranello team look very dominant.

We will see after the next 2 races, but if Ferrari can win in Turkey but even more so in Monaco then the season is done for and we'll have yet another Ferrari WDC and WCC

#13 pasadena

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:36

Except in 1995 when Benetton dominated the points scores without having the best car, the domination is always the result of having the best car, along with the fact that the top teams always have very good drivers (Williams being a half-exception to the rule in their heydays).

Today, Ferrari has an absolutely best car and two drivers good enough to exploit it. How come that they have the best car year after year, irrespective of drivers and team management changes...well, it seems it's not that important if you accumulate so much strength in depth as Ferrari did in late 1990s-early 2000s. Especially with the main opposition keeping shooting themselves in their feet.

Both KR and FM are top 5 drivers (KR even the top 3) and that, together with the dominant car, would bring more 1-2s this season.But the fact is that both Ferrari drivers have been an overall disappointment considering how dominant their car has been in 2007 and 2008.

#14 DoubleWDC

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:47

Best driver(s). Good car.

#15 SeanValen

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:53

Michael Schumacher's still tests out their car, :p even the 2009 one.

But really, when you say, why are they winning recently? Why aren't you surprise, do ferrari stay down often?

Ever since Schumacher joined Ferrari in 96, the period of winning and competing for championships for this legendary team reached a new standard. Apart from 96 and 2005, they have been fighting hard for the titles, either Michael was helping take it down to the last race when not expected or making their rivals sweat to the last races.

The ferrari before 1996 hasn't resurfaced, the organization is still bearing the success of the Schuey/Brawn/Todt/Bryne genesis, and it an't going away, if anything, the 2007 season made them stronger, their rivals in 2007-mclaren cheated. Renault are probabley ferrari's best rival this decade, and if they come up to scatch again, I expect Alonso and Renault to maybe jump Hamilton and Mclaren.


Interesting, both Renault and Ferrari, Schumacher raced with both outfits. Mclaren hasn't been the same without Newey, they haven't won a title since 99, nor a constructors since 98, Renault still has to been seen as the most recent and decent competition ferrari have faced. :smoking: :smoking: :smoking: :up:

Mclaren haven't done anything other then piss Kimi off to ferrari this decade, piss Montoya off to US again, piss ALonso off to Renault again, piss Newey off to Redbull.

Mclaren have to do alot to earn respect as a rival again. Dennis should respect Renault and BMW more, he isn't.

May I also add a Mclaren crashed out today for technical reasons, Hamilton may have gotten 3rd, but he's lucky his car survived, Mclaren have got to think about their car tonight.

#16 Ricardo F1

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:56

It's got to be Alonso hasn't it.

#17 Yellowmc

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:56

Best car and the WDC driving it.

#18 pasadena

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:57

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
It's got to be Alonso hasn't it.

Since 2005, FA has established himself as the top dog in F1 and 2007 only confirmed it (he finished only 1 point behind the WDC driver without having the best car and with facing a favoured driver in his team). It's a great pity he doesn't have a machinery to compete at the top this year.

#19 Cheap Wine Alesi

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:58

Originally posted by SeanValen
Michael Schumacher's still tests out their car, :p even the 2009 one.

But really, when you say, why are they winning recently? Why aren't you surprise, do ferrari stay down often?

Ever since Schumacher joined Ferrari in 96, the period of winning and competing for championships for this legendary team reached a new standard. Apart from 96 and 2005, they have been fighting hard for the titles, either Michael was helping take it down to the last race when not expected or making their rivals sweat to the last races.

The ferrari before 1996 hasn't resurfaced, the organization is still bearing the success of the Schuey/Brawn/Todt/Bryne genesis, and it an't going away, if anything, the 2007 season made them stronger, their rivals in 2007-mclaren cheated. Renault are probabley ferrari's best rival this decade, and if they come up to scatch again, I expect Alonso and Renault to maybe jump Hamilton and Mclaren.


Interesting, both Renault and Ferrari, Schumacher raced with both outfits. They have the best people, Mclaren hasn't been the same without Newey, they haven't won a title since 99, nor a constructors since 98, Renault still has to been seen as the most recent and decent competition ferrari have faced. :smoking: :smoking: :smoking: :up:

Mclaren haven't done anything other then piss Kimi off to ferrari this decade, piss Montoya off to US again, piss ALonso off to Renault again, piss Newey off to Redbull.

Mclaren have to do alot to earn respect as a rival again. Dennis should respect Renault and BMW more, he isn't.


5 mentions of Schumacher
1 mention of Kimi
0 mentions of Massa

:drunk:

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#20 kar

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 16:59

Best team.

Ferrari are a remarkably 'cohesive' team. I think, that, more than anything, is why they are so consistently successful.

Without getting into a team vs team slanging match, I think it is safe to say there are few teams in F1 that appear so cohesive as a team as Ferrari. Even watching them celebrate victories, even though the team is cosmopolitan everyone gets in on the Italian identity. You know they love winning, you never, ever, hear them slagging off one another and the management always backstops its people, right or wrong, period.

That is why they are successful. And that is why I love the team.

#21 pasadena

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 17:00

Originally posted by Cheap Wine Alesi


5 mentions of Schumacher
1 mention of Kimi
0 mentions of Massa

:drunk:

Well, it's only logical!

At Ferrari:
MS 5 WDCs
KR 1 WDC
FM 0 WDC

#22 SeanValen

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 17:14

People have come to expect Ferrari not to stay down often, it's a expectation they've earned over the years.
Towards the end of last century and the starting and continuation of this one, it's largely been red with the exception of some Renault art, which we should be thankful for, and Mclaren have tried but not had enough venom in the important times to reach titles.

It's a legendary team, and before 96 they were lost, but no longer, were in future f1 times, future ferrari times, things change. Until the end of time Ferrari. :smoking: :up:

#23 WOOT

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 17:19

Originally posted by SeanValen
People have come to expect Ferrari not to stay down often, it's a expectation they've earned over the years.
Towards the end of last century and the starting and continuation of this one, it's largely been red with the exception of some Renault art, which we should be thankful for, and Mclaren have tried but not had enough venom in the important times to reach titles.

It's a legendary team, and before 96 they were lost, but no longer, were in future f1 times, future ferrari times, things change. Until the end of time Ferrari. :smoking: :up:


I don't know why you are so sure Ferrari will never have a losing streak. After all they had a 21 year period where they didn't win anything.

#24 Apocalypse

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 17:29

Both best car and best drivers.

When it comes to all-around package I think Raikkonen and Alonso are above others... and Massa is an excellent, fast "backup" driver who has the talent and speed to win races. They're both also fairly experienced but still young.

#25 IOU 16

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 18:45

Both + they have money and people who can spend it properly (unlike Toyota). They have a great test driver crew of Luca Badoer and Michael Schumacher who have been around the team so long that they know how to communicate with the engineers and with the race drivers to design the perfect race machine.

#26 Menace

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 18:50

Best car + best drivers = domination. :smoking:

#27 Italiano Tifoso

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 06:16

Originally posted by WOOT


I don't know why you are so sure Ferrari will never have a losing streak. After all they had a 21 year period where they didn't win anything.


That's true, they lost the technical edge and didn't seem to be able to get it back. Luckily they did eventually, but the key was knowing why they were not winning.

McLaren is into their 9th year without any championships, what is it they are missing??? It can't be the driver as they got rid of Kimi and the next year he won his first title with a brand new team, tyres, chassis, etc. So it must be down to overall management, how long until they work it out do you think???

#28 Chiara

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 06:28

Originally posted by Italiano Tifoso


That's true, they lost the technical edge and didn't seem to be able to get it back. Luckily they did eventually, but the key was knowing why they were not winning.

McLaren is into their 9th year without any championships, what is it they are missing??? It can't be the driver as they got rid of Kimi and the next year he won his first title with a brand new team, tyres, chassis, etc. So it must be down to overall management, how long until they work it out do you think???


I don't really know what the problem was prior to 1988, but after Enzo's death there was quite alot of instability in the team, alot of internal politicking ad bickering, and general all round chaos and disorganisation. It wasn't until Luca di Montezemolo brought Jean Todt in to sort out and build the team that things improved in that respect.

With regards to McLaren, I feel they are there or thereabouts technically speaking, but I do feel they are lacking something in terms of strategy and race engineering (by that I mean with regards to making decisions about set-up etc). Maybe I'm being harsh (I'm sure someone will pipe up and tell me if I am) but I do seem to remember a few silly gaffes made by them in terms of strategic decisions last year, and one or two this year already. I do think they would have been WDC last year if it hadn't been for a few poor strategic calls at inopportune times. Thnig is its a hard job to do, and in retrospect its very easy to be critical when your not the one making those decisions.

#29 Galko877

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 06:30

They have the best car and they work as a TEAM! :up:

#30 Italiano Tifoso

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 06:41

Originally posted by Chiara


I don't really know what the problem was prior to 1988, but after Enzo's death there was quite alot of instability in the team, alot of internal politicking ad bickering, and general all round chaos and disorganisation. It wasn't until Luca di Montezemolo brought Jean Todt in to sort out and build the team that things improved in that respect.

With regards to McLaren, I feel they are there or thereabouts technically speaking, but I do feel they are lacking something in terms of strategy and race engineering (by that I mean with regards to making decisions about set-up etc). Maybe I'm being harsh (I'm sure someone will pipe up and tell me if I am) but I do seem to remember a few silly gaffes made by them in terms of strategic decisions last year, and one or two this year already. I do think they would have been WDC last year if it hadn't been for a few poor strategic calls at inopportune times. Thnig is its a hard job to do, and in retrospect its very easy to be critical when your not the one making those decisions.


Seems to me the very infighting that Ferrari was suffering from is what lead to 2007 blunders, but in addition to that they have just not found a cohesive lineup throughout their organisation.

Luca had the patience and trust in Todt, something Dennis does not have, this is why he is so quick to move on key personnel if the results dont come straight away. No single individual creates success but rather it is the sum of their work together.

Remember back to 1999 and the barge board saga, the media was calling for Todts head, Luca stood by him as did the Ferrari team in general and look what was created. I dont think Ron has the same capacity as Luca or Todt.

#31 HoldenRT

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 07:06

Originally posted by Cheap Wine Alesi


5 mentions of Schumacher
1 mention of Kimi
0 mentions of Massa

:drunk:

:lol:

#32 Italiano Tifoso

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 07:26

Originally posted by HoldenRT

:lol:


HRT i think someone else pointed out that the ratio of mentions directly corresponds to the number of championships they have won for Ferrari. Now that is funny, and also qualifies the posters position.

#33 Perigee

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:13

Originally posted by StefanV
I voted "other". I think that had McLaren not been fined $100 million (that is a rdidicolous sum of money) AND had their 2008 car not been revised by Max, the battles this year would have been closer. Had Max not intervened with the force he did last season, McLaren would maybe have taken both championships. I do not think it is fair to not give FIA some credit for the success Ferrari enjoys.

Phew, now I got that off my chest.


OT

Mmmm. I guess you were never punished as a child when you stole something, so the concept of being punished for doing something wrong is alien to you.

Just to be clear, McLaren did something VERY wrong, and they got VERY punished for it.

Many would argue that McLaren were lucky not to be expelled from both championships for a year or two.

It can be argued either way, but your "shoulda woulda coulda" about McLaren conveniently forgets the reason why they were punished.

#34 Italiano Tifoso

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:26

Originally posted by Perigee


OT

Mmmm. I guess you were never punished as a child when you stole something, so the concept of being punished for doing something wrong is alien to you.

Just to be clear, McLaren did something VERY wrong, and they got VERY punished for it.

Many would argue that McLaren were lucky not to be expelled from both championships for a year or two.

It can be argued either way, but your "shoulda woulda coulda" about McLaren conveniently forgets the reason why they were punished.

:up: :up: :up:

I think some people here are worried more about the penalty then the crime.

#35 Buttoneer

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:37

Originally posted by giacomo
Domination is always the result of having the best car.

Also other drivers than Raikkonen and Massa would win in the current Ferrari.

What he said. Though I think Kimi is pretty much the best there is right now, I couldn't vote 'both' because he's got Massa in the car next door.

Originally posted by Italiano Tifoso
:up: :up: :up:

I think some people here are worried more about the penalty then the crime.

And some people are more worried about the team involved than the crime, as the penalty Renault and Toyota got shows.

#36 Josta

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:04

Originally posted by Italiano Tifoso
:up: :up: :up:

I think some people here are worried more about the penalty then the crime.


The crime that was commited by a Ferrari employee.

#37 Perigee

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:10

Originally posted by Josta


The crime that was commited by a Ferrari employee.

Oh god - some people are never desitine to get it. :rolleyes:

Could you explain, perhaps, what McLaren (eventually) publicly apologised for?

#38 Hacklerf

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:35

Best organisation structure, best team, best car, best drivers, best support. There is only 1 Ferrari

They never rest to be second, only winning matters in the eyes of the staff and they dont rest until they get it, also they are not affraid to take a risk to produce something that will make the car faster, like the hole in the nose

#39 Digitaldrug

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:49

Originally posted by Italiano Tifoso

McLaren is into their 9th year without any championships, what is it they are missing??? It can't be the driver as they got rid of Kimi and the next year he won his first title with a brand new team, tyres, chassis, etc. So it must be down to overall management, how long until they work it out do you think???


Kimi winning a wc in a very successful and dominant team doesnt prove the drivers were not the problem at Mclaren, it just proves how good the ferrari car is. Massa being a consisent front runner proves how great that ferrari is, just compare his performance level to Fisichella in Alonsos WC years to really understand the quality of the car. Fisichella wasnt even a consistent podium getter.

Once Alonso joined Mclaren the team instantly looked like a re badged Renault, so I think that proved whats missing are Mclaren. Since Alonso left Mclaren have not beaten a single ferrari in a race except when its been parked in a gravel trap and I dont see much evidence of them doing it at all.

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#40 Owen

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:54

They've got a great car and they've got Kimi driving it. They're doing a great job.
But hopefully they will be overhauled. ;)

#41 StefanV

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:20

Originally posted by Perigee


OT

Mmmm. I guess you were never punished as a child when you stole something, so the concept of being punished for doing something wrong is alien to you.

Just to be clear, McLaren did something VERY wrong, and they got VERY punished for it.

Many would argue that McLaren were lucky not to be expelled from both championships for a year or two.

It can be argued either way, but your "shoulda woulda coulda" about McLaren conveniently forgets the reason why they were punished.

This thread is about why Ferrari is dominating. Not even a blind Ferrari fan can ignore the importance of Max Mosley. Regardless if the punishment of McLaren was right or wrong, and that is very much a topic where many people disagree, the fact that the was punished and the way they where punished might very well be the reason this thread exists. Because had McLaren won the WCC last year, with Hamilton and Alonso as WDC, and McLaren had been leading this years championship right now, there would be no thread titled "Ferrari's success" that deals with the "dominance" of the last couple of seasons. Instead there would be threads like "Where did it go wrong?" and the tifosi would dream back of the glory years before 2005. Sometimes the difference is not bigger than that.

#42 wordsby

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:38

Just to get back to the original OP, my answer would be :

PEOPLE

it is only people who design the cars, build the cars, fix the cars, tweak the cars, drive the cars

You can have the best car in the world but without people you can do nothing and without good management of those people, they cannnot achieve.

So, I believe the Ferrari success is actually down to its team strengths

#43 dawg_7529

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 12:45

Originally posted by Chiara


I don't really know what the problem was prior to 1988, but after Enzo's death there was quite alot of instability in the team, alot of internal politicking ad bickering, and general all round chaos and disorganisation. It wasn't until Luca di Montezemolo brought Jean Todt in to sort out and build the team that things improved in that respect.

With regards to McLaren, I feel they are there or thereabouts technically speaking, but I do feel they are lacking something in terms of strategy and race engineering (by that I mean with regards to making decisions about set-up etc). Maybe I'm being harsh (I'm sure someone will pipe up and tell me if I am) but I do seem to remember a few silly gaffes made by them in terms of strategic decisions last year, and one or two this year already. I do think they would have been WDC last year if it hadn't been for a few poor strategic calls at inopportune times. Thnig is its a hard job to do, and in retrospect its very easy to be critical when your not the one making those decisions.


Fair assesment but it has to be said Todts head was on the block as well. Alesi and Berger never got their car as title contenders, mechanical gremlins embarrassed todt and high brass even into 1996(or was it 1997?) when shumis car broke down leading the canadian race because of a broken driveshaft.

Iirc Lauda was Ferrari advisor in 1994, he told Todt to get Schumacher. Schumacher then brought brawn and Byrne. The first one revised their reliability and parts control, the latter demanded a lot of high tech wind tunnels and other tools. Once they got up to speed, around may 1999, Ferrari became unbeatable.

A few times they had problems with a car designed for heavy fule qualifying while the rules suddenly have changed(all you max is pro ferrari bashers pay attention), and not getting their suspension to work on bumpy tracks like 2006 and 2007. All that seems fixed now.

#44 Enzoluis

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 12:48

About the domination of Ferrari during this decade I have a teory. I think is due the reduction of the private tests.
In 1995 Ferrari were a midfield team going nowhere, how did they recover? They hired MS an put him to drive at Fiorano ton of kilometers every day until they could build the best car.
How can Maclaren or Renault or Honda or Toyota want catch up Ferrari if they can´t test more than Ferrari?
The cost reduction rules are freezing not only engines but also the relative positions of the teams.
As Ferrari fan. no problem I enjoy to see Ferraris 1-2 also in very very boring races like yesterday Spain GP. But this is not good for the bussines.

#45 Fatgadget

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 13:09

Originally posted by pasadena
Since 2005, FA has established himself as the top dog in F1 and 2007 only confirmed it (he finished only 1 point behind the WDC driver without having the best car and with facing a favoured driver in his team). It's a great pity he doesn't have a machinery to compete at the top this year.


I see you conveniently left out the word rookie. A rookie that after a season finished ahead of a 2x world champion.Those are the cold hard facts my friend.

#46 dawg_7529

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 13:24

Originally posted by Fatgadget


I see you conveniently left out the word rookie. A rookie that after a season finished ahead of a 2x world champion.Those are the cold hard facts my friend.


The rookie ended on equal points with the great FA. This, despite the FACT that mclaren did not treat their drivers equal to the point that the FIA even installed a monitor in FAs garage so their would be no obvious tampering.


The rookie also lost a monumental amount of points in the last 2 races. Talk about convenient.

#47 Enzoluis

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 13:33

Originally posted by StefanV

This thread is about why Ferrari is dominating. Not even a blind Ferrari fan can ignore the importance of Max Mosley. Regardless if the punishment of McLaren was right or wrong, and that is very much a topic where many people disagree, the fact that the was punished and the way they where punished might very well be the reason this thread exists. Because had McLaren won the WCC last year, with Hamilton and Alonso as WDC, and McLaren had been leading this years championship right now, there would be no thread titled "Ferrari's success" that deals with the "dominance" of the last couple of seasons. Instead there would be threads like "Where did it go wrong?" and the tifosi would dream back of the glory years before 2005. Sometimes the difference is not bigger than that.


Also if you consider the race results of last year, Ferrari second with one more race win than the champions, there is a decade of domination of Ferrarri, Since 1997 with the exception of 2005, Ferrari was first or second in both championships, there is no other team that was even close to that.

#48 pasadena

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by Fatgadget


I see you conveniently left out the word rookie. A rookie that after a season finished ahead of a 2x world champion.Those are the cold hard facts my friend.

Ahead? They were equal on points and LH had much more experience with McLaren cars. Add to this that McLaren favoured LH and FA's result (one point behind the WDC who was driving a dominant car) becomes simply great.

Take into account that FA faced 3 drivers who held some kind of advantage over him (Ferrari drivers had the car advantage, LH had preferential treatment and same car) yet FA beat or equalled 2 of them.

#49 Chiara

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:09

Ermmm :confused: how does a thread about Ferrari's on track success turn around into the LH v FA punch and judy show? :p

#50 Dragonfly

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:15

I went for option 3 but it is just 4 races into the season, a bit early for definite conclusions. Still I see Ferrari as the potential winners. Their driver pairing is good. The car seems to come to the liking of Kimi who is quite smooth and fast without TC. And IMHO didn't go to the limit this last weekend. Just enough to be first.

Hamilton is good but he's unexperienced. This is quite visible when he gets into an unexpected situation, not drilled to perfection on the simulator.