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Ferrari's success


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Poll: Ferrari's success (277 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. best drivers (5 votes [1.81%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.81%

  2. best car (110 votes [39.71%])

    Percentage of vote: 39.71%

  3. both of the above options (140 votes [50.54%])

    Percentage of vote: 50.54%

  4. other (22 votes [7.94%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.94%

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#51 Italiano Tifoso

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:49

Originally posted by Josta


The crime that was commited by a Ferrari employee.


Yes the Ferrari employee that was dealt with immediately. But i suppose it is easier to deal with one rogue employee then to change an entire culture within a team and punish one individual when many more were proven to be involved.

I can see you are still clutching at straws Josta and turning a blind eye to the facts :

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#52 Mauseri

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 20:48

Originally posted by Dragonfly
I went for option 3 but it is just 4 races into the season, a bit early for definite conclusions. Still I see Ferrari as the potential winners. Their driver pairing is good. The car seems to come to the liking of Kimi who is quite smooth and fast without TC. And IMHO didn't go to the limit this last weekend. Just enough to be first.

Yeah.

I think Ferrari is the best car by ~0.2 tenths. It's small difference, others will be able to threat Ferrari to pole and maybe to win on some track. But if the Ferrari drivers keep their preformance stable and stay cool under the pressure from others, they should end up winning a lot this year.

McLaren are not far behind in the driver front, but their focus in one driver too much seems to hurt their chances of finishing high. I dont mean Kovalainen is not good enough to compare, but he clearly has been held from racing for wins so far.

A lot of drivers would win races in the Ferrari for sure, but who would beat Kimi to the championship in it? Not many, if any.

#53 Classic Ferrari

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 03:40

Originally posted by pasadena
Well, it's only logical!

At Ferrari:
MS 5 WDCs
KR 1 WDC
FM 0 WDC


Shut down? :p

#54 Mika Mika

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 06:05

Originally posted by Chiara


I don't really know what the problem was prior to 1988, but after Enzo's death there was quite alot of instability in the team, alot of internal politicking ad bickering, and general all round chaos and disorganisation. It wasn't until Luca di Montezemolo brought Jean Todt in to sort out and build the team that things improved in that respect.


I think that happens when a great leader leaves a team for what ever reason... Look at Lotus :(... Ferrrari are lucky thay have Stefano now who seems a strong leader.

#55 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 19:41

Originally posted by Josta


The crime that was commited by a Ferrari employee.

BS. The whole Spygate scandal would not have happened if Stepney would have been the only wrongdoer.

#56 Topweasel

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 21:20

Amen...

Here in America its illegal to steal and its also Illegal to accept known stolen goods. Ask PepsiCo what the correct process for receiving stolen trade secrets is.

#57 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 21:29

Originally posted by giacomo
BS. The whole Spygate scandal would not have happened if Stepney would have been the only wrongdoer.

I heard that Stepney just followed order and it was in fact a private detective from the Quest agency that made sure Coughlans copy session was discovered. McLaren was set up.





(just joking of course, but the whole story was, after all, instigated, or at least initiated, by a Ferrari employee and there is probably a lot more in there that we will never ever know about. Spying is a part of F1)

#58 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 21:43

Originally posted by StefanV

I heard that Stepney just followed order and it was in fact a private detective from the Quest agency that made sure Coughlans copy session was discovered. McLaren was set up.
(just joking of course, but the whole story was, after all, instigated, or at least initiated, by a Ferrari employee and there is probably a lot more in there that we will never ever know about. Spying is a part of F1)

I don't agree that spying in the extent displayed by McLaren in 2007 is a part of F1.
That's just a cheap excuse.

Spying in the extent displayed by Toyota and Renault is a part of F1: Employees bringing their knowledge from one team into another.

#59 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 21:54

Originally posted by giacomo
I don't agree that spying in the extent displayed by McLaren in 2007 is a part of F1.
That's just a cheap excuse.

Spying in the extent displayed by Toyota and Renault is a part of F1: Employees bringing their knowledge from one team into another.

:lol:

First of all, I am not even sure that McLaren was even "spying" according to the definition of the word. They were given information without asking for it. And I am sure that you are fully aware of that in both the Renault and the Toyota cases the employee brought a lot more than only their 'knowledge'?

I am not particularly interested in having a huge argument over these issues, but it looks rather silly when people completely ignore HUGE blocks of reality in order to get a pleasant view.

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#60 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:03

Originally posted by StefanV

:lol:

First of all, I am not even sure that McLaren was even "spying" according to the definition of the word. They were given information without asking for it. And I am sure that you are fully aware of that in both the Renault and the Toyota cases the employee brought a lot more than only their 'knowledge'?

I am not particularly interested in having a huge argument over these issues, but it looks rather silly when people completely ignore HUGE blocks of reality in order to get a pleasant view.

It seems you are the one who ignores huge blocks of reality...

#61 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:06

Originally posted by giacomo
It seems you are the one who ignores huge blocks of reality...

So Toyota never got access to Ferrari software and Renault did not review McLaren data that they had on discs?

#62 BMW_F1

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:18

Originally posted by micra_k10
Why are they winning so much recently? In timing sheet it all looks quite close, but they still end up taking another one-two. Poll.


I dont quite get this question as if Ferrari has not always been this dominant. Ferrari has been the best team in F1 since I started watching back in 2000. Their only off year was 2005 and we all here know why that was. They are the yard stick in Formula one and all other teams are always trying to at least match them. So in reality the question of why are they winning so much is more of a reflection in other teams ability to beat/match them then ferrari being very good - because they always are.

#63 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:20

Originally posted by StefanV

So Toyota never got access to Ferrari software and Renault did not review McLaren data that they had on discs?

Toyota got access to old Ferrari software and Renault received discs with old McLaren data.

On the other hand McLaren was informed about ongoing developments by a mole inside of their major rival Ferrari.

If you try you will grasp the fundamental difference in the extent of spying.

#64 BMW_F1

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:20

Originally posted by StefanV

So Toyota never got access to Ferrari software and Renault did not review McLaren data that they had on discs?


Did they also had moles planted on the other side of the fence feeding them with real time data through sms. ?

#65 iuut

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:21

Originally posted by giacomo
Toyota got access to old Ferrari software and Renault received discs with old McLaren data.

On the other hand McLaren was informed about ongoing developments by a mole inside of their major rival Ferrari.

If you try you will grasp the fundamental difference in the extent of spying.


So spying is ok in one case and not in the other. riiiiight.

Originally posted by BMW_F1


Did they also had moles planted on the other side of the fence feeding them with real time data through sms. ?


yes because McLaren forced stepney at gunpoint to become a mole.

#66 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:22

Originally posted by iuut


So spying is ok in one case and not in the other. riiiiight.

I never said that.

It the difference of breaking the speed limit by 10 kph and by 100 kph.

#67 iuut

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:24

Originally posted by giacomo
I never said that.

It the difference of breaking the speed limit by 10 kph and by 100 kph.


and they're both breaking the speed limit.

#68 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:25

Originally posted by iuut

yes because McLaren forced stepney at gunpoint to become a mole.

:rolleyes:
Perhaps Stepney forced McLaren at gunpoint to accept his stolen informations.

#69 BMW_F1

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:26

Originally posted by iuut


So spying is ok in one case and not in the other. riiiiight.



.


Dude, on courts there is different degrees of crimes resulting in different penalties based on how the crime was conceived.

#70 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:27

Originally posted by iuut


and they're both breaking the speed limit.

Maybe you are too young to know the difference - both in offence and punishment - between 10 and 100 kph?

#71 iuut

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:28

Originally posted by giacomo
Maybe you are too young to know the difference - both in offence and punishment - between 10 and 100 kph?


I don't live in Europe so I wouldn't know.

#72 Josta

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:30

Originally posted by giacomo
Maybe you are too young to know the difference - both in offence and punishment - between 10 and 100 kph?


Depends what country you live in.

Here in Switzerland you get ****ed for going 10K over the limit. JK was fined a few hundred euros for going over 200 MPH in France a few years ago.

#73 BMW_F1

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:32

Originally posted by iuut


I don't live in Europe so I wouldn't know.


You dont have to live Europe to know that. Here in the states the fines for speeding are proportional to the offense leading to revocation of your dl.

#74 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:32

Originally posted by Josta


Depends what country you live in.

Here in Switzerland you get ****ed for going 10K over the limit. JK was fined a few hundred euros for going over 200 MPH in France a few years ago.

I see.

Next time I need a **** I will go speeding in Switzerland.

#75 Josta

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:34

Originally posted by giacomo
I see.

Next time I need a **** I will go speeding in Switzerland.


By all means. Just as long as you like it from behind.

#76 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:35

Originally posted by Josta


By all means. Just as long as you like it from behind.

Swiss do it from behind?

#77 Josta

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:38

Originally posted by giacomo
Swiss do it from behind?


The Swiss police do.

#78 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:38

Originally posted by giacomo
Maybe you are too young to know the difference - both in offence and punishment - between 10 and 100 kph?

I think you mean the difference between 0 and 100 000 000?

#79 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:39

Originally posted by Josta


The Swiss police do.

Then I'll stay away from Switzerland and let Swiss police doing their job upon their compatriots.

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#80 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:41

Originally posted by StefanV

I think you mean the difference between 0 and 100 000 000?

No, I mean 10 and 100.

That's why I typed 10 and 100.

#81 BMW_F1

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:43

Originally posted by Josta


The Swiss police do.


Is the **** time proportional to the speed they clocked you at. I mean do you just get a quickie if you were speeding by 10mph but get gangbanged if you were clocked doing 200mph?

#82 Josta

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:44

Originally posted by giacomo
Then I'll stay away from Switzerland and let Swiss police doing their job upon their compatriots.


A good idea. I have lived in Switzerland for 3 years and have to say. I ****ing hate this place. The level of administration is rediculous, and the laws allow for no explanation as to circumstance. The sooner I can get back to the UK the better.

#83 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:46

Originally posted by giacomo
No, I mean 10 and 100.

That's why I typed 10 and 100.

Ok. I understand. But then your comparison is not valid in this context unless you can quantify spying. Can you?
A "mole" you say? Was Stepney payed by McLaren? What about the truckloads of paparazzis that each team bring to the track? And what exactly did those SMS messages contain? You don't know. I don't know either. Maybe it was 34-53?

#84 Josta

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:47

Originally posted by BMW_F1


Is the **** time proportional to the speed they clocked you at. I mean do you just get a quickie if you were speeding by 10mph but get gangbanged if you were clocked doing 200mph?


It is. If you are caught doing 10K over the limit you will get a fine of several hundred francs. If you are going over 30K, they can nick your car.

#85 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:47

Originally posted by Josta


A good idea. I have lived in Switzerland for 3 years and have to say. I ****ing hate this place. The level of administration is rediculous, and the laws allow for no explanation as to circumstance. The sooner I can get back to the UK the better.

You sound bitter. How many times did Swiss police catch you speeding?

#86 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:49

Originally posted by StefanV

Ok. I understand. But then your comparison is not valid in this context unless you can quantify spying. Can you?
A "mole" you say? Was Stepney payed by McLaren? What about the truckloads of paparazzis that each team bring to the track? And what exactly did those SMS messages contain? You don't know. I don't know either. Mabe it was 34-53?

You bore me. Swiss police and their procedures are way more interesting than conversations with McApologists.

#87 Josta

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:50

Originally posted by giacomo
You sound bitter. How many times did Swiss police catch you speeding?


A few times, but it is more than speeding that I am pissed about.

#88 Raelene

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:50

Originally posted by StefanV
I voted "other". I think that had McLaren not been fined $100 million (- what a let off) AND had their 2008 car not been revised because they cheated, the battles this year would have been closer. Had MCLaren not cheatedlast season, McLaren would maybe have taken both championships. I do not think it is fair to not give McLaren some credit for the success Ferrari enjoys.

Phew, now I got that off my chest.


corrected;)

#89 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:52

Originally posted by giacomo
You bore me. Swiss police and their procedures are way more interesting than conversations with McApologists.

Actually, you bore me as well so let's just drop it. I doubt that you will ever come up with any sincere argument for your opinion other than "I love Ferrari".

#90 BMW_F1

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:53

I was caught speeding last week by the police and didnt get a fine. I was surprised, the first thing this had happened. I was summoned to appear on court and there the judge would tell me how much i have to pay.

#91 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:56

Originally posted by StefanV

Actually, you bore me as well so let's just drop it. I doubt that you will ever come up with any sincere argument for your opinion other than "I love Ferrari".

Denial is a defense mechanism' postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

#92 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:57

Originally posted by Raelene


corrected;)

As I said, the guilt part is not important in the 'Ferrari success' topic. But to ignore the fact that biggest part of last seasons championships for Ferrari was not Dominicali, it was not Todt, it was not Kimi or Luca, it was guy in a copy shop. Since this thread is about the Ferrari success, I thought it should be mentioned.

#93 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 23:00

Originally posted by giacomo

Denial is a defense mechanism' postulated by Sigmund Freud, in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial

I did not know that. Thank you for the link. Did you read the page?

#94 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 23:02

Originally posted by StefanV

As I said, the guilt part is not important in the 'Ferrari success' topic. But to ignore the fact that biggest part of last seasons championships for Ferrari was not Dominicali, it was not Todt, it was not Kimi or Luca, it was guy in a copy shop. Since this thread is about the Ferrari success, I thought it should be mentioned.

Yep. Trudy Coughlan had the misfortune to stumble over the only honest person in whole Woking.

#95 StefanV

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 23:05

Originally posted by giacomo
Yep. Trudy Coughlan had the misfortune to stumble over the only honest person in whole Woking.

:rolleyes:

#96 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 23:14

Originally posted by StefanV

:rolleyes:

Oh. You are from Woking as well?

#97 Raelene

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 23:39

it was guy in a copy shop. Since this thread is about the Ferrari success, I thought it should be mentioned


but you didn't you blamed it all on Mosley : :

What happened to McLaren last year - to assist Ferrari in winning the championship - wasn't MM fault, wasn't KR's fault, wasn't FM fault - it was McLaren's fault for cheating

#98 Josta

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 23:40

Originally posted by giacomo
Yep. Trudy Coughlan had the misfortune to stumble over the only honest person in whole Woking.


It's a good job that it didn't happen in Maranello. Given the Italian tendancy towards corruption, if the situation was opposite, it would never have been discovered.

#99 Raelene

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 00:13

Josta

amazing then isn't it that the two biggest scandals to rock F1 involved Englishmen/english teams

:lol:

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#100 StefanV

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 00:19

Originally posted by Raelene
Josta

amazing then isn't it that the two biggest scandals to rock F1 involved Englishmen/english teams

:lol:

You mean Benetton? Ah, I forgot, it was swept under the carpet.