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The loss of TC - who has gained/lost?


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#1 sopa

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:06

In several threads there have been several assumptions about one or another driver, who has become more/less competitive due to the loss of TC. Let's put it together now and talk all this properly in one thread. Also we could analyze here whether the loss of TC has made the gaps between drivers bigger and how much more driver's role has increased if it has increased at all.

Discuss.:)

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#2 Imperial

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:10

I think concentrating just on TC is a mistake. The changes as a whole need to be taken into account, including moving to a standard ECU which has affected engine braking.

To that end I think it's clear Massa was having some problems adapting to the changes.

I do however think he's the only driver that had a few problems, and to be fair to him it's potentially because he's behind one of, if not the, most powerful cars in F1.

Massa seems to have adapted now though and looks to be doing okay.

I don't think it's been an issue other than that, certainly there's no drivers having any issues whatsoever now.

#3 Jerome

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:18

Gained: Fisichella and Trulli. A lot! In the Force India thread it was described very well how Fisichella braked totally different than Sutil, and Timo Glock has also said there's a noted difference between him and Trulli. Both Sutil and Glock said that their respective teammates brake much more gentle into the corners than they do, and it obviously pays off. The strange thing is: I don't understand why applying the brakes more gentle could affect the speed over one lap. Sure, if you brake very hard your tires will suffer, but the Bridgies can take some punishment, don't they?

About equal: Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Alonso, Kovalinen

Lost: Sutil and... Coulthard. I can't think of another reason why Coulthard is suddenly so slow and accidentprone.

Not lost, because never had the advantage: Piquet.


I'd have to say I almost would like Fisi to partner Alonso again. I have the feeling they would be much closer than during their Renault period. I can't imagine Alonso driving the Force car another 0.4 seconds faster in qualifying!

#4 Apocalypse

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:21

I think all the drivers in F1 will adapt to all kinds of changes very quickly... they are, afterall, the top drivers in the world. I don't think a lot has changed from the last season, except that [u]all[/u} drivers might be a bit more prone to driving mistakes...and maybe the level of concentration must be a bit higher all the time.

#5 smartie_f1

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:23

I think Massa has been the biggest loser. When he first went to Ferrari he seemed inconsistent but in 2006 and 2007 seemed to get a grip on the car, the team and racing. This year, he seems to have lost it again.

I can't work out if DC's difficulties this season are due to rubbish mirrors, lack of TC and engine braking or just old age.

Kimi had a bad start but seems to have gotten it under control.

Fisichella and Barrichello seem to be doing very well without it.

#6 Jerome

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:28

Originally posted by Apocalypse
I think all the drivers in F1 will adapt to all kinds of changes very quickly... they are, afterall, the top drivers in the world. I don't think a lot has changed from the last season, except that all drivers might be a bit more prone to driving mistakes...


Well, first you have to believe that anyone ending up in F1 belongs to the best drivers in the whole wide, world. F1 is the pinnacle of motorracing by perception, but in reality it is a very specialised kind of motorracing. Open wheel, lot of power, lot of downforce. I think you can create about seven series of open wheel races, and though I think that Raikkonen, Hamilton, and Alonso would still be the best drivers, the balance would change ever so slightly between them, depending of what kind of open wheel car you drive.

Then, take Sebastian Loeb. I don't think he would ever beat one of the three mentioned above in a Formula 1 car. But is he a lesser driver? No, just in another discipline.

So I think that drastic rule changes (like the last one) do shift the balance between drivers. But because of the dominance of the car (90 percent of the performance) and the phenomenal data collecting (telemetry, windtunnel), those shifts between drivers are not easy to see. One quick, historic example: In the time that F1 were 1,5 litres, Graham Hill could not touch Jim Clark. In the 3-litre years he was a lot closer.

#7 Walsingham

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:29

Kubica gained a lot, if you take Heidfeld's performance as yardstick.

#8 sopa

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 19:43

Last year it was said that 'smooth' Jenson would gain a lot, but Rubens has kept him honest. So what do we make out of here? That certain driving style won't be beneficial with certain rule changes?

#9 pippin

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 20:06

I don't know if its loss of tc or standard ecu but definitely the starts and first lap seem to have been much crazier this season. Not a single race without a first lap clash so far. In races, yes there have been driver errors, notably Massa, but even he seems to have got to grips now.

I must admit Fisi and Rubens both seem quicker this year, but Fisi always seems to do well in a less than perfect car and Rubens was quite strong in the early races of last season too.

Theren are just so many factors at play that its really hard to judge how much tc has effected drivers. I do wonder how drivers will get on in Monaco though.

#10 K-One

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Posted 27 April 2008 - 20:14

Originally posted by Walsingham
Kubica gained a lot, if you take Heidfeld's performance as yardstick.


Wrong, Kubi lost 5 kilos :wave:

#11 Pistol_Peto

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 02:54

I think Massa was caught out the first few races... now I just think its no big deal. Everyone seems to have adjusted to no TC.

I thought it was going to be much more problematic for some.

Pistol Peto :cool:

#12 StefanV

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 07:22

Originally posted by Jerome
The strange thing is: I don't understand why applying the brakes more gentle could affect the speed over one lap. Sure, if you brake very hard your tires will suffer, but the Bridgies can take some punishment, don't they?

It is not about wear, it is about balance. Finding balance, keeping balance. Slam the brakes and you upset the car and lose balance. Before, that little disharmony was taken care of by the TC, but now the driver has to do it himself. On a F1 car you want as much rear bias as possible, both so that you get maximum brake effect, but also so that you do not get understeer by loading the front wheels too much. A brake bias that is far to the rear leads to the risk of locking up the rear tyres and then you spin. So, a driver that can brake smooth and with feeling can have more rear bias without passing apex backwards.

#13 Galko877

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 07:39

Originally posted by Jerome
Gained: Fisichella and Trulli. A lot! In the Force India thread it was described very well how Fisichella braked totally different than Sutil, and Timo Glock has also said there's a noted difference between him and Trulli. Both Sutil and Glock said that their respective teammates brake much more gentle into the corners than they do, and it obviously pays off. The strange thing is: I don't understand why applying the brakes more gentle could affect the speed over one lap. Sure, if you brake very hard your tires will suffer, but the Bridgies can take some punishment, don't they?

About equal: Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Alonso, Kovalinen

Lost: Sutil and... Coulthard. I can't think of another reason why Coulthard is suddenly so slow and accidentprone.

Not lost, because never had the advantage: Piquet.


I'd have to say I almost would like Fisi to partner Alonso again. I have the feeling they would be much closer than during their Renault period. I can't imagine Alonso driving the Force car another 0.4 seconds faster in qualifying!


That's about right, I think.

#14 mursuka80

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 16:45

Who has gained? Me :D

#15 William Hunt

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:53

Originally posted by Walsingham
Kubica gained a lot, if you take Heidfeld's performance as yardstick.


This probably has more to do with the fact that Kubica was only in his 1st full season last year, and had to learn several tracks. He has more track knowledge and more experience now. Still, I don't think Nick is doing badly, BMW Sauber have got one of the best duo's IMHO.

#16 xbook

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:10

I would say Massa is being affected by the lack of TC. As is hamilton, i feel...

#17 Walsingham

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:17

This probably has more to do with the fact that Kubica was only in his 1st full season last year, and had to learn several tracks. He has more track knowledge and more experience now. Still, I don't think Nick is doing badly, BMW Sauber have got one of the best duo's IMHO



Agree with the last part. I think Heidfeld is great racer but it looks like he is struggling with qualy now. It may be that new car simply suits Kubica's style more.

Kubica's performance has more to do with his new engineer and lack of engine braking. Few times he mentioned that his problems with locking rear wheels gone with introduction of SECU. Which is weird but looks like truth.

I mentioned Kubica in that context because after certain Jacques' comments everyone tought that guy would struggle without it.

#18 bankoq

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:26

Originally posted by William Hunt


This probably has more to do with the fact that Kubica was only in his 1st full season last year, and had to learn several tracks


It has nothing to do with experience as it's well known tha RK learns extremely fast. The real problem in 2007 was that he had to be both the driver and the enginner and additionally the car didn't suit him at all (Kubica once said that they missed something last year because when they switched off all electronic helps his braking problems just dissapeared instantly). He was also informal number two driver and team was experimenting with his races and strategies probably to gain experience - please don't bash me, it's just my opinion.

I think the answer for this topic's question is quite simple: better drivers gained something and on the contrary worse drivers lost something.

#19 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:59

It definitely seems that Kubica is a big winner, on the other hand, it's also probably true that the Pole is in his second full season, and having been to all the venues sure helps.

Fisi and trully are big winners, Massa and Sutil are loosers.

And don't forget about Bourdais, the guy made a switch from ChamCar, where TC was outlawed.

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#20 race

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 21:10

Many people seem to think Massa suffers the most, but Bahrain was supposed to be the ultimate test for drivers as the loss of TC apparently had a very big effect there. Well, Massa didn't do too bad in Bahrain.

His mistakes in the first two races made it look like he was suffering from the loss of TC, but he said the mistakes had nothing to do with it. After Bahrain and Barcelona I'm starting to think he was telling the truth. His race pace in both races was good and very consistent.

#21 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 13:42

Originally posted by race
Many people seem to think Massa suffers the most, but Bahrain was supposed to be the ultimate test for drivers as the loss of TC apparently had a very big effect there. Well, Massa didn't do too bad in Bahrain.

His mistakes in the first two races made it look like he was suffering from the loss of TC, but he said the mistakes had nothing to do with it. After Bahrain and Barcelona I'm starting to think he was telling the truth. His race pace in both races was good and very consistent.


Yeah, Massa lost control of the car in a fast bend at Sepang and, according to Marc Surer, it had nothing to do with the loss of traction control. Here, I have to agree with you.

But, in terms of overall pace, Massa is losing it to KR, while at this point of the season last year the Brazilian seemed to have the Finn under control. Here, race, you'll have to agree with me.