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Kovalainen's Crash


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#51 vaavu

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 08:40

Originally posted by tahadar
apparently he was out cold after the crash. in the autosport interview with Ron Dennis he said they couldnt communicate w/ him because he was unconscious.


I can imagine that Ron & co have been quite worried right after the crash. With such a horrible sight, Kovalainen buried under the barrier, and not responding to the radio communication... At least I would have feared the worst. :|

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#52 wingwalker

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 08:52

Originally posted by Jackman
He's well shorter than me, so you're out by a bit there.



Hahaha I meant Kubica, as I posted picture from his crash. I knew that this RK-KR thing will get me.

#53 potmotr

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:11

I was standing just before the corner Heikki crashed on yesterday. They seemed to take a very long time to remove him from the tyres. Not sure if it was shown on TV but the marshalls also put up blue sheets around him to stop spectators seeing. We were watching through binoculors and he didn't appear to be moving at all during the extraction. We really did think the worst!
When I was at the airport last night I got talking to a British journalist who reckoned the front of the car was torn off as the tractor was pulling the McLaren from the barriers.

#54 AFCA

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:25

Whitmarsh: ''The big tyre wall absorbed the impact. There were 100 milliseconds between the impact and the standstill of the car. That's pretty long.''

He reckoned Kovalainen's rim broke off at a speed of 260 km/h. The driver hit the barriers with a speed of around 150 km/h.

#55 manchild

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:30

Originally posted by tahadar
Talk about legs sticking out :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://st.blog.cz/j/...zky/1413127.jpg

this is Frederico Kroymans in his ferrari F399 which apparently was the same chassis as the one that broke shumi's legs in 1999.


Still, not the worst surviving accident ->

#56 stevewf1

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:53

Originally posted by tahadar
Talk about legs sticking out :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://st.blog.cz/j/...zky/1413127.jpg

this is Frederico Kroymans in his ferrari F399 which apparently was the same chassis as the one that broke shumi's legs in 1999.


I saw that in I think, Motorsport magazine awhile back. I remember reading that the car was sent back to Ferrari for examination and the organizers of the body who stages vintage F1 events are questioning the longevity and safety of older carbon-fiber F1 cars - not necessarily the construction of the cars, but whether carbon-fiber is still sturdy several years after it's made...

#57 wheelock

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 09:59

Glad he is OK.
I was also concerned about those tyres contacting his head and ramming it down into the cockpit etc.
Thumbs up for the engineers & rule makers!

#58 Keffo

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:15

Originally posted by stevewf1


I saw that in I think, Motorsport magazine awhile back. I remember reading that the car was sent back to Ferrari for examination and the organizers of the body who stages vintage F1 events are questioning the longevity and safety of older carbon-fiber F1 cars - not necessarily the construction of the cars, but whether carbon-fiber is still sturdy several years after it's made...

Apparently, that pic is not real.

#59 Josta

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:31

Originally posted by Keffo
Apparently, that pic is not real.


Lots more pics here

Look pretty real to me.

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#60 pRy

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:35

I was looking at onboard of Hamiltons very similar accident last year:



And it's feels a bit morbid really, even tho he is alive and well.. but after his engine turns off, you can hear Hamilton screaming out seemingly in pain. You have to turn your volume up tho. The external camera must have picked it up.

His accident seems almost identical although different wheels. I imagine any wheel failure would look the same tho.

#61 Clatter

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:42

Originally posted by potmotr
I was standing just before the corner Heikki crashed on yesterday. They seemed to take a very long time to remove him from the tyres. Not sure if it was shown on TV but the marshalls also put up blue sheets around him to stop spectators seeing. We were watching through binoculors and he didn't appear to be moving at all during the extraction. We really did think the worst!
When I was at the airport last night I got talking to a British journalist who reckoned the front of the car was torn off as the tractor was pulling the McLaren from the barriers.


I thought it took an awful long time before the decision to deploy the safety car was taken.

They couldnt just rush in a pull the car out, as that could potentially cause more damage to the driver.

#62 stevvy1986

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:46

i'd have thought given the number of marshals and the fact the car was clearly under the tyres would have meant an almost instant decision to deploy the safety car and medical car,suprised it didnt happen sooner,and the marshals reaction as well when they saw the car stuck under the tyres and the apparent red on his helmet,you could tell it needed the safety car and medical car as they were clearly gesturing quite alot to get the tractor over there to get the car out so heikki could be attended to-still,very glad he only seemed to suffer concussion

#63 Owen

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 10:51

Great news that he seems relatively uninjured considering the impact. Here's to a speedy recovery Heikki! :up:

#64 4mula1

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:07

This reminded me of Burti's crash at Spa in 2001, I was just very happy to see Heikki give that thumbs up.

#65 stevvy1986

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:12

agreed,although the speed wasnt as high,the way it unfolded was basically the same,in that he went unabated speed,unable to stop the car,and ended up with the car under the tyres-it could have been alot worse,hopefully he'll be back in turkey though

#66 Al.

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:22

Originally posted by Clatter


From the Tech regs.
13.4.2 When he is seated normally, the soles of the driver's feet, resting on the pedals in the inoperative position, must not be situated forward of the front wheel centre line.

Where did you get the 300mm measurement from?


The whole of Reg 13.4

13.4 Position of the driver’s feet:

13.4.1 The survival cell must extend from behind the fuel tank in a rearward direction to a point at least 300mm in front of the driver's feet, with his feet resting on the pedals and the pedals in the inoperative position.

13.4.2 When he is seated normally, the soles of the driver's feet, resting on the pedals in the inoperative position, must not be situated forward of the front wheel centre line.



#67 Perigee

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:33

Martin Whitmarsh has suggested that Heikki's survival was not a "miracle", and suggested his survival was due to the barriers and the construction of the car.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/67003
"...but miraculous is too big a word."

How dare Whitmarsh so readily dismiss this as being the work of excellence in engineering and carefully implemented safety rules by the FIA, rather than being the work of an omnipresent super-being?

Surely Whitmarsh should be condemned for this blatant blasphemy.

#68 Clatter

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:35

Originally posted by Al.


The whole of Reg 13.4


But that doesnt necessarily mean the drivers feet are 300m behind the axle.

#69 Al.

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:39

Originally posted by tahadar
Talk about legs sticking out :eek: :eek: :eek:
http://st.blog.cz/j/...zky/1413127.jpg

this is Frederico Kroymans in his ferrari F399 which apparently was the same chassis as the one that broke shumi's legs in 1999.


Discussed in this thread

I posted this that suggests that the car pictured was not the same chassis crashed at Silverstone in 1999.

#70 Al.

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:42

Originally posted by Clatter


But that doesnt necessarily mean the drivers feet are 300m behind the axle.


No it doesn't I assumed that would be obvious.
300mm behind the bulkhead and behind (0.5mm would be enough) the Frt Wheel Centreline wherever that is

Edit: Can even be level with the front wheel centreline

#71 potmotr

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 11:42

Originally posted by Clatter


I thought it took an awful long time before the decision to deploy the safety car was taken.

They couldnt just rush in a pull the car out, as that could potentially cause more damage to the driver.


The other thing we noticed is the tractor appraoched the crash down the access road running alongside the circuit. The rope hanging off the front of the tractor to hoist the car fell off. The driver stopped his tractor to get out and pick it up - blocking the access road and stopping the ambulance getting to the scene!

#72 Shockabuku

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 12:54

Given that McLaren currently suspect that a wheel failure caused the tyre to deflate, I can't help but wonder if the wheel fairings are increasing the possibility of the wheel rim being damaged.
Might it be possible that debris such as gravel could become trapped between the wheel and the fairing, potentially leading to scoring of the wheel or rim and subsequently causing failures similar to the one Heikki encountered?

#73 mursuka80

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:20

Originally posted by manchild


Still, not the worst surviving accident ->


That must be a luckiest man on a planet :up: Im sure drivers who drove past him thought he was dead.

#74 stevewf1

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:21

While the structural integrity of F1 cars this season seem to be plenty sound, I'm wondering about the pieces stuck on to the car. Remember Coulthard's front suspension breakage at Sepang?

Just my opinion, but it's appearing that while the tubs themselves seem safe, the rest of the cars are becoming more fragile...

:

#75 Cargo

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:42

Posted Image

This photo in today's Times. It really is a pretty shocking image when you work out where the driver's head must be...

Does anyone know what the material is that makes up the barrier? Is it plastic, cloth, or (possibly) some kind of metal? The way it has creased up makes it look like it could be steel...

#76 pingu666

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:44

there ment to fall apart and deform, to absorb the energy of the crash, to tub should be strong, to stop debris etc entering the cockpit... drivers feet have become exposed twice now perhaps, FIA needs to look into making the saftey cell stronger in that area imo

#77 pingu666

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:46

they say its convery belt, so some rubbery plastic, with fabric reinforcing if i remmber correctly

and damn thats buried deep in there

#78 potmotr

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:46

Originally posted by Cargo
Posted Image

Does anyone know what the material is that makes up the barrier? Is it plastic, cloth, or (possibly) some kind of metal? The way it has creased up makes it look like it could be steel...


The barrier has three layers to it. First and furthermost away is the concrete retaining wall. That wall is lined with tyres which are stacked five layers deep. Then rubber (most commonly that which has previously been used as a conveyer belt) is wrapped around the exposed edge of the tyres facing the track.

#79 Gilles4Ever

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:47

Originally posted by Cargo
Posted Image

This photo in today's Times. It really is a pretty shocking image when you work out where the driver's head must be...

Does anyone know what the material is that makes up the barrier? Is it plastic, cloth, or (possibly) some kind of metal? The way it has creased up makes it look like it could be steel...


I think its actual conveyer belt so it would be steel reinforced rubber matting. Hence the fact that it remains in tact

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#80 DiverF1

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 14:57

This photo in today's Marca.
Posted Image
:up:

#81 manchild

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 15:35

Whitmarsh:

"The front of the chassis broke off. The chassis is wedge-shaped and we imagine it went in to the barriers until the point at which it snapped. A section of about 450-500mm broke off the front of the chassis, but everything worked as it was supposed to. The car absorbed a massive amount of energy, Heikki received no physical injuries and the circuit emergency staff and the FIA medical team at the track did an absolutely fantastic job in getting him out of the car safely and then looking after him thereafter."

450 to 500mm and the feet suffered no injuries. That tells how much chassis there is in front of the feet.



#82 cheesy poofs

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 15:54

Found these pics:

http://flickr.com/se...n crash &m=text

#83 manchild

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 16:03

Originally posted by stevewf1


...the car was sent back to Ferrari for examination and the organizers of the body who stages vintage F1 events are questioning the longevity and safety of older carbon-fiber F1 cars - not necessarily the construction of the cars, but whether carbon-fiber is still sturdy several years after it's made...

That's poorest excuse Ferrari ever came up with. According to them, carbon-fiber of the wing, wing struts, nose, wishbones doesn't get old. No, it only happens on the part of the chassis where it is several times thicker and less stressed. No one ever expected them to confess that they've cut off shredded front end of Schuey's 1999 Silverstone crash car, superglued new front bit, polished it and sold it to Kroymans as chassis 193 instead of 192 (it is very easy to replace chassis plates, takes only few 10 minutes).

BTW, ever heard of Historic F1 championship? How come that such thing never happened on chassis which are several times older and pushed much harder than Kroymans movie low speed cruising.



#84 tahadar

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 16:32

Originally posted by Joe Bosworth
From 160 km/hr it takes just a fraction over 1 meter to stop at 100 G.

If the report of 220 km/h and 26 G is accurate it would have taken 7.3 meters to come to a stop.


its a bit weird, the deacceleration they are claiming. whitmarsh claims the time it took to come to a complete stop was 0.1 s, which, assuming impact speed was 220 km/h, give an average of 67 g's.

if you assume the average deacceleration was 26 gs and work back to calculate impact speed, you get a very low 92 km/h. :confused:

#85 alfa1

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 16:42

Originally posted by stevewf1
While the structural integrity of F1 cars this season seem to be plenty sound, I'm wondering about the pieces stuck on to the car.



My first thought when I first read that was regarding the 'dumbo wings' on the nosecones of some cars.
In a similar accident, its stuff that will get pushed back into the drivers face. Good reason to ban them... or better still, find a way to stop the cars from burrowing under the barrier. A bigger risk with the lower noses of next years cars.

#86 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 18:21

Originally posted by alfa1
My first thought when I first read that was regarding the 'dumbo wings' on the nosecones of some cars.
In a similar accident, its stuff that will get pushed back into the drivers face. Good reason to ban them... or better still, find a way to stop the cars from burrowing under the barrier. A bigger risk with the lower noses of next years cars.


Sounds like you're describing exactly what happened oh, in about 1994? I hate to say this, but it is really just a matter of time until there's another one of those. I don't care if you have the best helmet in the world. Anything substantial flying at you at 100+ MPH is going to do some damage.

I know it's part of the culture and everything, but I truly believe that open cockpits are the single most dangerous thing in racing.

When I look at these pictures of the exposed legs and whatnot, it's not hard to think of the cars as power suits that the driver is wearing, as opposed to a vehicle that the driver is riding in.

#87 pRy

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 18:23

I think that belt thing possibly made it look worse than it actually was if thats even possible.

#88 FLB

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 18:38

Originally posted by pRy
I think that belt thing possibly made it look worse than it actually was if thats even possible.

That came about after Panis's accident in Montreal in 1997. There was no such belt where he hit and the tyres grabbed the front of the car. The rear still had momentum and it was sufficient to break the car in two... as well as Panis's legs.

#89 Spunout

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 18:55

According to Finnish media the impact speed was approximately 130 KPH.

#90 Enkei

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:11

Originally posted by Spunout
According to Finnish media the impact speed was approximately 130 KPH.


They were doing about 230 before that corner. He didn't seem to loose that much speed from the moment the wheel exploded untill he hit the wall, but the wheel probably failed under braking.

#91 Oho

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:17

Originally posted by Spunout
According to Finnish media the impact speed was approximately 130 KPH.


That may well be the component perpendicular to the tire wall, Heikki did not hit it in right angle, though I would think initial impact with the wall should have rotated his car toward the wall.

#92 WACKO

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:20

Originally posted by cheesy poofs
Found these pics:

http://flickr.com/se...n crash &m=text


I wouldn't have wanted to stand there in the stands. It merely happened right in front of their eyes. He came straight toward them. :eek:

#93 WACKO

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:23

I think Heikki was lucky for three reasons: one: the improved front impact structure since last year. It stood out the most important part of the crash. Two: the increased head wrests. His head made minimum contact with the tyres in the process. Three, and not the least: the HANS system. That one saved his life out there.

#94 postajegenye

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:24

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker


I don't care if you have the best helmet in the world. Anything substantial flying at you at 100+ MPH is going to do some damage.


I agree. It's not hard to imagine an accident where something hits the driver's helmet. Maybe a quite big thing, like a wheel... Wheels keep on flying off the cars and if a driver's helmet meets a wheel at, let's say, 300 km/h... well, you can imagine.
And it CAN happen. We've been lucky for a long time, but the possibility of a serious injury or worse is always there. They've been doing incredible work engineering this cockpits, but protecting the drivers' head is still difficult...

Anyway, F1 safety :up: :up: :up:

#95 postajegenye

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:31

Originally posted by WACKO
the HANS system. That one saved his life out there.


The HANS system is obviously great, but it's a bit odd we keep hearing after big accidents that it had saved the drivers' lives.
Many people (lots of them in the media or even from F1 teams) stated that HANS saved the life of Alonso (2003 Brasil), Massa (2004 testing) Kubica and Kova just to name 4, but the list could go on... Seriously, I don't think we would have seen 4 fatal accidents in the last 4-5 years ;)
HANS is very important but sometimes a bit overrated I think.

#96 Oho

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:32

Originally posted by WACKO
Three, and not the least: the HANS system. That one saved his life out there.


Perhaps though he does not have fractured vertebrae like Ralf Schumacher had after his major Indy shunt, that was a dead certain give away that Hans saved his life, forces substantial enough to crack the spine would have torn his head right off if it was not supported by HANS.

#97 WACKO

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 19:51

Originally posted by postajegenye


The HANS system is obviously great, but it's a bit odd we keep hearing after big accidents that it had saved the drivers' lives.
Many people (lots of them in the media or even from F1 teams) stated that HANS saved the life of Alonso (2003 Brasil), Massa (2004 testing) Kubica and Kova just to name 4, but the list could go on... Seriously, I don't think we would have seen 4 fatal accidents in the last 4-5 years ;)
HANS is very important but sometimes a bit overrated I think.


It isn't. It limits the movement of the head in relation to the shoulder, hence keeping the spine and vertibrae stable. The slightest freedom of movement would in this case have resulted in a very sudden forward movement, which is absolutely lethal.

http://www.f1-planet...ls/special2.htm

I ran this one when it was introduced. It's in Dutch but use freetranslations.com for a quick translation if you like. A 45 G impact implied 160% of the lethal impact. Heikki's was said to be 26 G at the top during a millisecond. It comes very close. Decisive is how long the peak is in terms of during.

#98 jb_128

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:19

Posted Image

Looks like his head didn't hit the tyres but it does look like he was lucky to somehow not get injured by the belt thingy.

#99 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:25

Is there any chance this failure had anything to do with Hamiltons Nurburg accident last year or was that a pure wheelnut issue?

McLaren have stated it was a rim/tyre issue but when I first saw the onboard I was convinced something in the hub or brake disc had exploded.

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#100 Josta

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:26

Originally posted by jb_128
Posted Image

Looks like his head didn't hit the tyres but it does look like he was lucky to somehow not get injured by the belt thingy.


Funnily enough, I think that DC contributed to his safe escape. If he didn't try to drive over Wurz's head last year, the regulations wouldn't have ensured the higher side protection for the drivers. This could have placed his head firmly on the side of supporting a large number of wheels.