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Kovalainen's Crash


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#101 undersquare

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:35

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Is there any chance this failure had anything to do with Hamiltons Nurburg accident last year or was that a pure wheelnut issue?

McLaren have stated it was a rim/tyre issue but when I first saw the onboard I was convinced something in the hub or brake disc had exploded.


Replaying frame by frame I notice a puff of brake dust as the first thing, on both sides of the wheel, I think that must be the tyre gas escaping through the rim on the inside. Then two curved pieces fly upwards, look like bits of rim. This does seem to fit the stone-caught-in-caliper scenario, rather than a loose wheelnut.

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#102 postajegenye

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:40

Originally posted by WACKO


It isn't. It limits the movement of the head in relation to the shoulder, hence keeping the spine and vertibrae stable. The slightest freedom of movement would in this case have resulted in a very sudden forward movement, which is absolutely lethal.


I mean it's overrated because people continously claim that the HANS saved xy's life, without it they would have been dead etc. As I said, I do not believe there would have been 4-5 fatal accidents since 2003.

#103 undersquare

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:43

Originally posted by jb_128
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Looks like his head didn't hit the tyres but it does look like he was lucky to somehow not get injured by the belt thingy.


Someone said the marshalls saw red paint on his helmet from the belt, so he must have gone in futher then the car has bounced back a bit.

The car seemed to get under the tyres a bit, maybe they need to set them more below the surface.

#104 Atreiu

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 20:56

Originally posted by kamix
Heikki's car held up nicely but how long was his car stuck under those tyres? Can you imagine if a car caught fire and lodged underneath a tyre wall like that ... ouch.


That was what worried the most. It seemed as if the marshalls were absolutely unprepared and just didn't know what to do, which is surprising given how fast and potentially dangerous that corner is.

Anyhow, I'm glad Kovalainen's okay. And I hope everybody will learn what there is to learn from this scary crash.

#105 BiEs

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 21:13

And let's hope he won't be allowed to start the next race. I'm sure that as Kubica he needs a rest just for "in any case" reasons.

#106 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 21:18

Originally posted by BiEs
And let's hope he won't be allowed to start the next race. I'm sure that as Kubica he needs a rest just for "in any case" reasons.


As noted previously, there is a longer gap between races than in Kubica's case.

#107 BiEs

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 21:25

Right, but I don't think that one week difference makes a big difference. Do you? This is not solely the matter of racing. All training is involved as well.

#108 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 21:35

I don't know how it works in F1, but in NASCAR, all drivers are required to take some test in the pre season that tests stuff like reaction times and cognition. This establishes a baseline so that when a driver crashes, the test can be re-administered to determine if there's any neurological deficit.

If NASCAR can do it, I would assume F1 has an even more sophisticated version.

I don't know how much they worry about second impact syndrome though.

#109 Dolph

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:00

Originally posted by undersquare
The car seemed to get under the tyres a bit, maybe they need to set them more below the surface.


I'm not all that convinced that wedging the car under the tires is all that bad. High risk of head injury, of course, but I believe as the car wedged under the tires it decelerated slower than it would have if the tires would have been below the surface.

#110 Atreiu

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:04

Originally posted by BiEs
Right, but I don't think that one week difference makes a big difference. Do you? This is not solely the matter of racing. All training is involved as well.


They have friday's practice sessions to see if he's fit or not.
Can the FIA appoint a small medical team to follow/monitor him through the friday?

#111 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:23

Originally posted by postajegenye


I mean it's overrated because people continously claim that the HANS saved xy's life, without it they would have been dead etc. As I said, I do not believe there would have been 4-5 fatal accidents since 2003.


I cant prove it but I believe Kubica's could well have been.

#112 BiEs

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:23

Whatever. Somehow I can't see Heikki doing well at the moment. I know he's a professional but psychologically his case is much worse than Kubica's one. Kubica knew that at least partly his heavy crash was because of his own acting, which he could and he can control better. But Heikki knows that what happpened to him was entirely because of his car. And that means that his confidence must be, want it or not, quite shattered too..Besides he's not as ruthless creature as Kubica...I wonder if I am right boldly presumming that for Kovi season is over in terms of result. You know it's all about those tenths he was lacking even so far...

#113 wingwalker

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:28

Originally posted by Atreiu


They have friday's practice sessions to see if he's fit or not.
Can the FIA appoint a small medical team to follow/monitor him through the friday?


Nah, it will be most likely same situation Kubica was in - tests on Thursday (or was it Friday?) before race weekend and medics decision. He is either going to spend 3 days in the car or 0. Note that Kubica passed the tests at Indy, but still wasn't given the green light.

#114 jokuvaan

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:37

Heikki is pissed because he was leading the race and had fuel for few laps more, now points gap to Hamilton has again grown.

#115 undersquare

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:52

Originally posted by Dolph


I'm not all that convinced that wedging the car under the tires is all that bad. High risk of head injury, of course, but I believe as the car wedged under the tires it decelerated slower than it would have if the tires would have been below the surface.


I know what you mean, and it turned out OK this time. But ideally the barrier would have the right stiffness at car height without burying the car. Much more of a tunnelling effect and Heikki's car could have got right under the tyres through to the concrete wall behind. Still as you say it did its job, and didn't even seem to need much repairing afterwards.

#116 blackgerby

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:55

Originally posted by postajegenye


I mean it's overrated because people continously claim that the HANS saved xy's life, without it they would have been dead etc. As I said, I do not believe there would have been 4-5 fatal accidents since 2003.


Find out about Dale Earnhadt's death and see how a slower accident can still cause a death without HANS, and then see if you still think the same thing. HANS prevents Basilar Skull Fractures. See the horrible, horrible list of driver deaths here http://en.wikipedia...._skull_fracture before HANS.
I'm sorry, I do not think HANS is overrated.

#117 blackgerby

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 22:57

Originally posted by BiEs
Whatever. Somehow I can't see Heikki doing well at the moment. I know he's a professional but psychologically his case is much worse than Kubica's one. Kubica knew that at least partly his heavy crash was because of his own acting, which he could and he can control better. But Heikki knows that what happpened to him was entirely because of his car. And that means that his confidence must be, want it or not, quite shattered too..Besides he's not as ruthless creature as Kubica...I wonder if I am right boldly presumming that for Kovi season is over in terms of result. You know it's all about those tenths he was lacking even so far...


But as he can't remember the accident and it's immediate aftermath, will it affect him?
I guess we'll have to wait and see...

#118 blackgerby

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 23:00

Originally posted by Josta


Funnily enough, I think that DC contributed to his safe escape. If he didn't try to drive over Wurz's head last year, the regulations wouldn't have ensured the higher side protection for the drivers. This could have placed his head firmly on the side of supporting a large number of wheels.


Indeed. Didn't Alan McNish in Australia have trouble breathing under the tyre barrier with the weight of the tyres? I seem to remember something like that...

#119 Atreiu

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Posted 28 April 2008 - 23:03

Originally posted by wingwalker


Nah, it will be most likely same situation Kubica was in - tests on Thursday (or was it Friday?) before race weekend and medics decision. He is either going to spend 3 days in the car or 0. Note that Kubica passed the tests at Indy, but still wasn't given the green light.


I didn't remember that.
It'll be a shame if Kovalainen misses the race, but better safe than sorry.
:)

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#120 Al.

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 06:35

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
Is there any chance this failure had anything to do with Hamiltons Nurburg accident last year or was that a pure wheelnut issue?

McLaren have stated it was a rim/tyre issue but when I first saw the onboard I was convinced something in the hub or brake disc had exploded.


I think the failure was similar, although perhaps not the cause. Hamilton had a loose wheel that moved and touched the brake duct causing it to fail. That was the 1st or 2nd lap out of the pits during Quaiy. Heikki hadn't pitted yet, so if I had to guess I would suggest some debris got perhaps into the brake duct and rattled it's way round over time to the caliper/disc (both which run close to the wheel) and then machined a groove in the wheel.

Didn't JPM or Kimi have a similar failure in 2005 somewhere or other?

#121 Jackman

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 06:51

Originally posted by postajegenye
I mean it's overrated because people continously claim that the HANS saved xy's life, without it they would have been dead etc. As I said, I do not believe there would have been 4-5 fatal accidents since 2003.

There would have been been at least that many in GP2 alone, not to mention every other category that uses it. Overall the number of lives saved would be much, much higher than just four or five.

#122 bogi

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 07:38

http://img72.imagesh...4BarSunA134.jpg

Look at the damage on head protection :eek:

#123 Chiara

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
I don't know how it works in F1, but in NASCAR, all drivers are required to take some test in the pre season that tests stuff like reaction times and cognition. This establishes a baseline so that when a driver crashes, the test can be re-administered to determine if there's any neurological deficit.

If NASCAR can do it, I would assume F1 has an even more sophisticated version.

I don't know how much they worry about second impact syndrome though.


Following on from a concussion where there is a loss of consciousness it's pretty standard medically for all patients to be followed up by an appointment with a Neurologist to test the patients neurological functions. They'll be looking at reflexes, reaction times, cognition, memory, physical symptoms such as headaches and changes in personality that all may indicate neurological damage.

The problem with concussions is that once you've had one its easier to have a second and so forth, the effects can be cumulative and cause long lasting medical problems or in some severe cases even death so they will be taking the possibility of secondary impact syndrome very seriously considering the sport involved.

#124 kismet

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 12:58

Originally posted by Al.
Didn't JPM or Kimi have a similar failure in 2005 somewhere or other?

It was the unofficial explanation for a high-speed accident Kimi had during pre-season testing. The year may indeed have been 2005. It was quite a heavy shunt he was lucky to escape without (major) injuries, and I remember being endlessly frustrated because (some) people were making jokes about it as if it was no biggie.

#125 MichaelPM

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 13:22

Originally posted by bogi
http://img72.imagesh...4BarSunA134.jpg

Look at the damage on head protection :eek:

Whats with the notchs on the metal post? They counting crashes on the corners?

#126 HP

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 13:41

Originally posted by blackgerby


But as he can't remember the accident and it's immediate aftermath, will it affect him?
I guess we'll have to wait and see...

It's never good when one is knocked out unconscious. And not knowing what exactly happend might not be confidence inspiring. Hamilton for example clearly understood what happened and put it mentally away. Same goes for Kimi last year.

There's a good reason why McLaren doesn't appear confident that Heikki will be racing at Turkey. The final decision will lie with the FiA doctors. And since Ralf Schumacher's Indy incidents they seem to prefer to err on the side of safety. If Heikki's back for Turkey, great, but if the doctors don't let him race because they want to give him a chance to fully recover, that's fine too.

In any case, since I've experienced an accident where I was unconscious for about 20 minutes, I appreciated that my boss at the time was very understanding, and gave me plenty of time to fully recover. Only once I went too quickly back on a motorbike, and the following minor accident because of me not being fully recovered thought me a good lesson.

#127 archstanton

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 13:48

i thought the head-protection didn't look too bad, a bit scuffed, but structurally sound.

another few cm on the front of the survival cell might give everyone a bit more margin, a crucial few more percent, all seems pretty close ... but to be fair, on the evidence of the last few big crashes, it seems to be just about enough to let people walk out of it.



i wouldn't mind seeing another fia mandated hook-point on the rear of the car, maybe on the rear crash structure.

trying to thread a loop through the airbox lift-point seemed difficult and time-consuming with the car buried ... i don't think we need people in a panic trying to improvise something with the rear wing if another driver gets buried harder and just a little bit deeper.

#128 Crazy Canuck

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 14:41

Originally posted by MichaelPM
Whats with the notchs on the metal post? They counting crashes on the corners?


There is some text on the pole that looks like:

"REASFALTAT" or "REAIFALTAT"

Any Spanish speakers care to guess what that could mean?

CC

#129 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 14:49

Originally posted by MichaelPM
Whats with the notchs on the metal post? They counting crashes on the corners?



The number of cars hauled to the garage each year? Were there six mechanical retirements in Barca (either before or including Heikki)?

The number for 2007 seems too high though.

The top has a word, "REASFALTAT" or something, perhaps some of our Continental contingent can elaborate?

#130 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 14:52

That's not a spanish word, I speak spanish.

I think it's Basque for "accident" or "crash."

#131 Dragonfly

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 14:58

"REASFALTAT


Isn't it simply meaning "resurfaced"?
re + asphalt

In Bulgarian "asfalt" is used also for "tarmac" besides the first meaning, which is tar, a kind of resign.

#132 Nadsat

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 15:02

Originally posted by Crazy Canuck


There is some text on the pole that looks like:

"REASFALTAT" or "REAIFALTAT"

Any Spanish speakers care to guess what that could mean?

CC


It's Catalonian. In Spanish it's "REASFALTADO"

"Reasphalted" "covered with new asphalt"

#133 Villes Gilleneuve

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 16:02

Originally posted by BuonoBruttoCattivo


too late!

After seeing this crash, which follows Kubika's in Montreal and Hams in Germany 2006, we must all at least admire Max Mosley's fervent, religious-even priority on SAFETY...Because not only F1 is cheating deaths, but now even injuries serious or not...amazing really. :up: :up: :up: :up:



:up: Everyone is wanting to lynch Mosely over his hobbies, but he's saved many lives with his policies.

Still people that want slick tires, super turbo cars and dead drivers.

#134 Dragonfly

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:04

Originally posted by Villes Gilleneuve



:up: Everyone is wanting to lynch Mosely over his hobbies, but he's saved many lives with his policies.

Still people that want slick tires, super turbo cars and dead drivers.

Why you guys think that in the aftermath of Senna's death things wouldn't go the same way or even faster and better without Mosley on top of the FIA.
Those measures are devised by FIA experts and sanctioned by the FIA. In fact IMO Mosley abused the safety clause many times for his own purposes.

#135 Juan Kerr

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:44

Originally posted by Al.


I think the failure was similar, although perhaps not the cause. Hamilton had a loose wheel that moved and touched the brake duct causing it to fail. That was the 1st or 2nd lap out of the pits during Quaiy. Heikki hadn't pitted yet, so if I had to guess I would suggest some debris got perhaps into the brake duct and rattled it's way round over time to the caliper/disc (both which run close to the wheel) and then machined a groove in the wheel.

Didn't JPM or Kimi have a similar failure in 2005 somewhere or other?

JPM, April 23rd 2003 testing at Silverstone IIRC, stuck under the tyre barrier for 10 minutes at Becketts.

#136 Atreiu

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:49

Originally posted by Juan Kerr
JPM, April 23rd 2003 testing at Silverstone IIRC, stuck under the tyre barrier for 10 minutes at Becketts.


10 minutes?
That's outrageous.

Perhaps they thought he was enjoying it.

#137 Jerome

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:51

Originally posted by Villes Gilleneuve



:up: Everyone is wanting to lynch Mosely over his hobbies, but he's saved many lives with his policies.

Still people that want slick tires, super turbo cars and dead drivers.


During Mosley's reign, Formula 1 has become saver. Credit to whom is credit due. But I still reserve the right to be critical of Mosley... that doesn't immediately mean I want dead drivers...

But that was a bit of a troll, right?

#138 Slowinfastout

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:53

Originally posted by Villes Gilleneuve



:up: Everyone is wanting to lynch Mosely over his hobbies, but he's saved many lives with his policies.

Still people that want slick tires, super turbo cars and dead drivers.


Maybe with slicks and less reliance on downforce the drivers would actually have more control over the cars?

I'm thinking particularly about Kubica's crash here...

Its called active safety, passive safety is great too but that comes into play only when the sh*t has really hit the fan...

Mosley is responsible for both concepts, never forget that...

#139 undersquare

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 18:55

Originally posted by Villes Gilleneuve



:up: Everyone is wanting to lynch Mosely over his hobbies, but he's saved many lives with his policies.

Still people that want slick tires, super turbo cars and dead drivers.


In 14 years anyone would have done as much, no-one could accept regular injuries or deaths today.

It's not that hard, after all, some elementary physics and telling other people what to do with their cars and circuits.

And how much credit has he given to the guy who really started it and had to fight the risk-taking culture, Jackie Stewart?

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#140 Walsingham

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 19:39

Kubica suffered light(?) concussion, he passed all medical tests (with better result than at the begining of the season) but they didnt let him drive because of possibility of Second Impact Syndrome. If you suffered concussion second head injury before concussion symptoms are cleared may be lethal.

#141 postajegenye

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 20:01

Originally posted by Walsingham
Kubica suffered light(?) concussion, he passed all medical tests (with better result than at the begining of the season) but they didnt let him drive because of possibility of Second Impact Syndrome.


I read Kubica failed in one part of the test or two, and it seems logical - if he would have passed the tests and still not allowed to race, why would they do the tests?

#142 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 20:08

Sorry for the mess up on Reasfaltat guys. I did a google search for it and I saw what I thought were a bunch of news stories on crashes on various streets. In hindsight those were government websites announcing the resurfacing of those streets.

#143 wingwalker

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 20:16

Originally posted by postajegenye


I read Kubica failed in one part of the test or two, and it seems logical - if he would have passed the tests and still not allowed to race, why would they do the tests?


Cause that's the procedure. Where did you read he failed parts of it? That is interesting, I read he passed it pretty easily.

#144 Walsingham

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 20:43

I read Kubica failed in one part of the test or two, and it seems logical - if he would have passed the tests and still not allowed to race, why would they do the tests



It was reported he scored higher than at the begining of the season and the reason they didnt allow him to race was possiblity of SIS.

#145 Clatter

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 20:56

Originally posted by Walsingham


It was reported he scored higher than at the begining of the season and the reason they didnt allow him to race was possiblity of SIS.


I thought the reason was because they were back to back races, and it's normal to allow at least 10 days recovery after a concussion.

#146 Walsingham

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 21:03

I thought the reason was because they were back to back races, and it's normal to allow at least 10 days recovery after a concussion.



There is no contradiction. SIS happens to people that didnt fully recovered from concussion.

Anyway, I hope Kova is ok and will be able to race. I also hope that McLaren finally give him more aggresive strategy as he regularly outqualifies Lewis fuel corrected.

#147 4MEN

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 23:22

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
That's not a spanish word, I speak spanish.

I think it's Basque for "accident" or "crash."


:rotfl:

#148 Chiara

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Posted 29 April 2008 - 23:59

Originally posted by Clatter


I thought the reason was because they were back to back races, and it's normal to allow at least 10 days recovery after a concussion.


With regards to head trauma, there are no hard and fast rules. Recovery will very much depend on the severity of the concussion in the first place and the patient. A very severe concussion can take a patient's brain many months to recover from, while a mild concussion can mean the patient is fine to carry on their normal activities after a week or so.

One factor in Kovy's favour is his age, young people recover more quickly. Another positive aspect is I heard that Ron Dennis confirmed that there was no sign of bleeding or bruising to his brain (which will have been assessed by carrying out a CT scan). It still remains to be seen though if the doctors will rule out a return to racing so quickly due to concerns over secondary impact syndrome.

#149 Clatter

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 00:02

The 10 day thing was something I thought I'd seen somewhere after another incident, either JB in Monaco or possibly earlier still. Could just have been press speculation.

#150 Spunout

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 01:17

It´s amazing how fast professional athletes can recover. I´ve had concussion once, and I think it was small one compared to Kovy´s crash (AFAIK they rate them as "minor" and "major" here in Finland, I am not sure which one Heikki´s case would be?). Didn´t have to stay in hospital for more than few hours. No blacking out, memory loss or anything like that. I saw flashes, kinda like stars rolling everywhere and heard constant "hum" in my head. Spent the rest of the day and much of the night throwing up. Felt somewhat dizzy 2 days or so. In approx 5 days I was more or less 100%.