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What's wrong with Coulthard?


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Poll: What's wrong with Coulthard? (180 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Attitude/Behaviour problem (54 votes [30.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 30.00%

  2. Bad luck (20 votes [11.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.11%

  3. Getting too old (85 votes [47.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 47.22%

  4. Loss of traction control (2 votes [1.11%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.11%

  5. The Red Bull car (3 votes [1.67%])

    Percentage of vote: 1.67%

  6. Something else (Explain) (16 votes [8.89%])

    Percentage of vote: 8.89%

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#101 eoin

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 19:14

Originally posted by Gecko


Gee, thanks for that observation, it sure shows class.

If Glock wanted to he could be just as to the inside as Massa. Having your nose to the inside is not the only rule that applies when racing. It's one of the most often quoted, but the no changing direction when braking is just as important; in fact it's the only one handled by the FIA sporting regulations:

"Curves, as well as the approach and exit zones thereof, may be negotiated by the drivers in any way they wish, within the limits of the track. Overtaking, according to the circumstances, may be done either on the right or on the left. However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as premature changes of direction, more than one change of direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction, are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties rangingfrom a fine to the exclusion from the race."

(bold added by me)

You will also note that there is nothing about "overlap" or "nose" anything of the sort in the regulations. So better brush up on your knowledge yourself before passing judgement of others.


Look: This is what you are saying.

It's ok to turn in on someone that is along side you, but it's not ok to go for the apex when someone is behind you!! Do you realise how daft that is? The goal is to get ~3/4 of your car along side the other car before they turn into the apex.

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#102 manchild

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 19:21

Since I voted for last option I have to guess that's it's either impotence or premature ejaculation (perhaps even both). :lol:

#103 giacomo

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 19:28

Originally posted by manchild
Since I voted for last option I have to guess that's it's either impotence or premature ejaculation (perhaps even both). :lol:

Impotence prevents premature ejaculation.

#104 Gecko

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 19:31

Originally posted by eoin


Look: This is what you are saying.

It's ok to turn in on someone that is along side you, but it's not ok to go for the apex when someone is behind you!! Do you realise how daft that is? The goal is to get ~3/4 of your car along side the other car before they turn into the apex.


No, I actually agree with what you're saying, I just don't think just one rule applies to either of these situations. Perhaps my memory of the DC/Massa incident is shaky (I can't find a video), but Massa simply braked much too late and wouldn't make the corner without pushing Coulthard out of the way or worse, and was not that far alongside by the point of turn in anyway, just at the apex. If you can show me otherwise I'd happily concede, though, as I perhaps remember it wrong. Which would show much much worse for DC anyway ;).

But you can't say that the getting alongside rule is the only rule, ever. What DC did both in Bahrain and Spain goes directly against some other regulations that are clearly written down and that I show bold above, and to ignore those is quite daft, too, if I may say so.

#105 eoin

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Posted 30 April 2008 - 22:02

Originally posted by Gecko


No, I actually agree with what you're saying, I just don't think just one rule applies to either of these situations. Perhaps my memory of the DC/Massa incident is shaky (I can't find a video), but Massa simply braked much too late and wouldn't make the corner without pushing Coulthard out of the way or worse, and was not that far alongside by the point of turn in anyway, just at the apex. If you can show me otherwise I'd happily concede, though, as I perhaps remember it wrong. Which would show much much worse for DC anyway ;).

But you can't say that the getting alongside rule is the only rule, ever. What DC did both in Bahrain and Spain goes directly against some other regulations that are clearly written down and that I show bold above, and to ignore those is quite daft, too, if I may say so.


Massa might of braked too late in Oz, i said that at the time, but that doesn't mean that DC should turn in on him. Give him the car space on the inside, if he hits you then push for a grid penalty for the next race and thats that.

I am not sure what to make of "premature changes of direction". DC just took a tighter line, was on cold tyres and a "full" fuel load. All that leads to a slower speed which caught Glock out.

#106 LoudHoward

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 01:11

Originally posted by eoin
Not sure what race ye are watching but glock goes on the grass on the entrance, not the exit. He also never gets beside DC so DC doesn't have to give him room.


When they come out of the corner, on the run down to the next left hander theres a left hand kink, they seemed to be side by side, and DC goes off the racing line and puts Glock on the grass. Thats how I remember it anyways.

#107 VresiBerba

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 03:00

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
JPM did talk, so to accuse DC for doing the same is somewhat hypocritical IMO. Rant over too! ;)

To be perfectly honest, and I am, for reminding you all of this. Montoya in my eyes only did one despicable thing while in F1; telling Villeneuve during a drivers meeting about safety that; 'at leat I didn't kill a marshal' (Villeneuve crashe into Ralf in Melbourne and a marshal got hit by Villeneuves tyre and died) for which Jaqcues went ballistic and physically tried to choke Juan.

Of course, this is just hearsay, but I wouldn't put it passed Montoya to make such a comment. But then again, neither would I put it passed Villeneuve that he actually deserved it.

#108 Melbourne Park

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 07:23

Originally posted by VresiBerba
To be perfectly honest, and I am, for reminding you all of this. Montoya in my eyes only did one despicable thing while in F1; telling Villeneuve during a drivers meeting about safety that; 'at leat I didn't kill a marshal' (Villeneuve crashe into Ralf in Melbourne and a marshal got hit by Villeneuves tyre and died) for which Jaqcues went ballistic and physically tried to choke Juan.

Of course, this is just hearsay, but I wouldn't put it passed Montoya to make such a comment. But then again, neither would I put it passed Villeneuve that he actually deserved it.


I suspect he's lost his cool on the odd other occasion - that kill a Marshal was a dig that went very wrong I think. But I recall in Melbourne, lots of BMW owners went down to Sandown racetrack, to have their cars driven with JPM, and to meet and greet him. Before Juan went out to them, he had a Press conference and PR meet the Press in a conference room. Someone from the Aussie Press cracked an Aussie joke, which Juan did not understand, and he was offended by it, and he stormed out, got into his X5 with the BMW execs and his manager running after him pleading for him to stay, but he just drove off in a huff. Lots of BMW drivers had taken the day off, taken their BMWs down and they were quite bemused and very disappointed because they knew he was there and then they found out he had gone. There might be more of those, or maybe its just the second one only in his career. Maybe its just a Melbourne thing? :confused: But anyway - I liked the guy, he had what is the rare capacity to say what he thought.

#109 Gecko

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 07:46

Originally posted by eoin


Massa might of braked too late in Oz, i said that at the time, but that doesn't mean that DC should turn in on him. Give him the car space on the inside, if he hits you then push for a grid penalty for the next race and thats that.

I am not sure what to make of "premature changes of direction". DC just took a tighter line, was on cold tyres and a "full" fuel load. All that leads to a slower speed which caught Glock out.


Yes, of course giving room in the DC/Massa incident is the sensible thing to do, but as far as I could tell DC simply didn't see him as Massa didn't present himself early enough. I sat in a 2006 F1 car once; it's nigh on impossible to see much out of that and I'm pretty tall. Now, with the raised cockpit sides it's very easy to miss someone barely alongside you when you're aiming for the apex. That's why I don't feel putting the blame on DC for that incident is appropriate, but I wouldn't really blame Massa either, if what you say is true (as I say, I don't recall the incident that well). It's simply not an incident that I would hold against DC for the purpose of this thread.

About the Button and Glock incidents, however; the videos are out there, and if you don't see the premature changes of direction there then I don't think we can really continue this discussion. It's one thing to turn in early, but it's another to start braking and twitch to the inside, then continue braking until the actual turn in point.

#110 Torch

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 10:30

I can see the change of direction, but I'm not sure its so clear cut.

To me it looks like DC is taking a defensive line by taking a tight entry (not going all the way to the left). He brakes and then turns into the corner (one movement) whilst continuing to brake. He hits the apex, then gets smashed from behind.

My guess is that DC braked a bit early because he was on dirty track and taking a tight entry. Also, getting braking points right is very difficult when following another car so closely, so maybe Glock was just caught out.

Either way, I don't put much blame with DC despite his **** ups in recent races/years.

#111 eoin

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 11:02

Originally posted by Gecko


Yes, of course giving room in the DC/Massa incident is the sensible thing to do, but as far as I could tell DC simply didn't see him as Massa didn't present himself early enough. I sat in a 2006 F1 car once; it's nigh on impossible to see much out of that and I'm pretty tall. Now, with the raised cockpit sides it's very easy to miss someone barely alongside you when you're aiming for the apex. That's why I don't feel putting the blame on DC for that incident is appropriate, but I wouldn't really blame Massa either, if what you say is true (as I say, I don't recall the incident that well). It's simply not an incident that I would hold against DC for the purpose of this thread.

About the Button and Glock incidents, however; the videos are out there, and if you don't see the premature changes of direction there then I don't think we can really continue this discussion. It's one thing to turn in early, but it's another to start braking and twitch to the inside, then continue braking until the actual turn in point.


Yes it is not easy to see out of, but that is there job- these guys are suppose to be the best in the world. We have seen plenty of wheel to wheel racing without crashes so saying that it's hard to see so lets not blame him doesn't really cut it.

I am not going to get into the Button crash- both of them were all over the place so i don't know where to start.

Premature changes of direction- i think this means the opposite to what you think it means. Premature can mean early but why would it be wrong to change direction early? What i think it means is that it is wrong to make sudden or hasty movements. Schumacher was heavily criticised for a sudden movement in Oz 2005(?) when trying to keep Heidfeld behind. At the time i couldn't understand why, but having seen that rule i guess that is where it falls under.
Now DC doesn't really make ANY movement, he just takes the corner slower than Glock expected. Braking to the apex is how most/all these guys drive- it's called trail braking. From where you start braking to the apex is a braking zone- can you please explain how one makes a corner if they aren't allowed to move in the braking zone?

#112 eoin

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 11:03

Originally posted by Torch

My guess is that DC braked a bit early because he was on dirty track and taking a tight entry. Also, getting braking points right is very difficult when following another car so closely, so maybe Glock was just caught out.


It's his outlap and the first real braking zone so he is probably been cautious as he is unsure of his grip level.

edit: If you do a search for my posts on DC you will find that 95% of them are negative. I don't rate the guy, never have never well, but i aint going to blame him for something that isn't his fault. I ain't some DC fanatic that will defend any action he takes!

#113 Gecko

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 11:06

Indeed, the Schumacher/Heidfeld incident is one of the incidents that are very similar, but that one was probably even worse.

Originally posted by eoin
Now DC doesn't really make ANY movement, he just takes the corner slower than Glock expected. Braking to the apex is how most/all these guys drive- it's called trail braking. From where you start braking to the apex is a braking zone- can you please explain how one makes a corner if they aren't allowed to move in the braking zone?


Well, that's very, very far removed from trail braking. Trail braking is very predictable since every driver does it anyway, but that move was not. I doubt we'll ever agree on this issue, so agree to disagree :)?


#114 SirSaltire

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 16:19

And I thought the F1 press were the most fickle people on the planet! Some of the comments on this thread really show a complete lack of F1 knowlege. DC has had a run of bad luck - plain and simple. Just about every driver on the grid has it a some time or another. Remember MW at Williams?
I am fairly sure that this will be DC's last year in F1 but for some to say that he has no talent is just ridiculous. Have a look at the all time points scorers list and get a sense of reality please. :lol:

#115 ForMules

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 16:21

What's wrong with Coulthard?


HE IS SLOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

:wave:

#116 BMW_F1

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 16:22

Originally posted by SirSaltire
And I thought the F1 press were the most fickle people on the planet! Some of the comments on this thread really show a complete lack of F1 knowlege. DC has had a run of bad luck - plain and simple. Just about every driver on the grid has it a some time or another. Remember MW at Williams?
I am fairly sure that this will be DC's last year in F1 but for some to say that he has no talent is just ridiculous. Have a look at the all time points scorers list and get a sense of reality please. :lol:


he has talent to crash when negotiating a corner with other drivers.

#117 SirSaltire

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 17:05

Originally posted by BMW_F1


he has talent to crash when negotiating a corner with other drivers.

Another inept comment from BMW_F1 :wave:

#118 race addicted

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 21:00

Originally posted by giacomo
That was just race addicted; it looked like a fair amount of people because he repeated it so many times.


Look, you should stop spreading your "wisdom" on this board, as more or less everything you write is fallacy. Then again, most people can see through your posts by now, so....

Anyway, take a look at this; http://forums.autosp...&threadid=97631 :wave:

Originally posted by karlth


By whom?


Why do you ask? Are you interested? You're maybe the biggest anti-DC on this board, and you wouldn't acknowledge him being any good if even Fangio came to life and gave him his praise.

....Maybe it was the same people that called Montoya "daring"?

#119 BMW_F1

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Posted 01 May 2008 - 23:01

Originally posted by SirSaltire
Another inept comment from BMW_F1 :wave:


let's see if DC can prove me wrong on my assessment in the next races. If he does, I take it back. (must see him and another car go around a corner at the same time without touching like everyone else)
The way I see it now is that DC does not give a f.. anymore and his arrogant behavior takes over his driving. He will chop people if they dare go to his inside.

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#120 robins

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 04:15

maybe he is too old for f1

#121 kamix

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 04:42

Originally posted by race addicted
...and DC has always been labeled exactly that; a racer.


Sorry but what is that supposed to mean? He is more of a 'racer' than the other 21 racers he races against?

#122 Melbourne Park

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 05:11

Originally posted by kamix


Sorry but what is that supposed to mean? He is more of a 'racer' than the other 21 racers he races against?

Its a term used for a driving style. A typical example was Jack Brabham, who when passed would respond and fight back. IMO there are many drivers in F1 today who do not show the "racer" style. And why would they, when the cars don't allow passing or close proximity driving anyway?

#123 HP

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 06:34

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Its a term used for a driving style. A typical example was Jack Brabham, who when passed would respond and fight back. IMO there are many drivers in F1 today who do not show the "racer" style. And why would they, when the cars don't allow passing or close proximity driving anyway?

While most overtaking is because one car is significantly faster, in recent times we've seen a number of fightbacks. Most of these guys have to fight their way into F1. They're not there by accident. And somehow I don't think anyone switches to a "just follow the leader" attitude upon entering F1.

Over the years, besides what McLaren guys have said about him regarding his astonishing capacity to doubt himself from one weekend to the next, his main weakness IMO is that he needs too long to adapt to changes. So what we are seeing might fit into that pattern. Or is there any year with significant changes of the rules, and DC on top of it from race 1? When things got easier, with reintroduction of LC/TC?

DC would IMO have done much better in times when changing tires and fuel was not allowed. He is IMO one of the best in that regards. Even when he started from behind in the McLaren, he would usually show some nice speed with a high fuel load. But, I think this is representative of lot of his career so far, it was just enough to do damage limitation. In modern F1, those were seldom race winning strategies, and in DC's case those strategies were needed because of his struggle with single lap qualifying. DC wasn't exactly back to his former self after they changes the single lap qualification again however.

And in all of this, DC seems a bit reactionary with his responses, waking up only when under pressure. The results do not convince me. At least to me I don't consider him to be what a racer should be. Too many wasted opportunities at McLaren for that. From the current grid, Alonso seems to me much closer what a racer should be, at least on the track.

#124 Melbourne Park

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 07:10

Originally posted by HP
And somehow I don't think anyone switches to a "just follow the leader" attitude upon entering F1. ...

Please excuse me for picking up just one thing from your good post, but what choice do they have? If a driver tries to stay close to the car in front, all they do is scrub off their tyres because when you close to the car in front, you loose downforce and thereby damage your tyres.

This is almost an RBR thread, so consider Webber in Barcelona. The press said he had a very good second session (whatever its called after your first stop). The reality was more likely that he sat back and waited. Or switch to Hamilton sitting behind Alonso. You might say Alonso is a racer (which I think he is) but the fact that Hamilton could not attempt to pass him had nothing to do with FA or Hamilton. The lack of attempts to pass him was due to the fact that aero interference prevented the driver behind (Hamilton in this case) from being able to even consider an attempt to pass. When FA had gone, then Hamilton straight away increased his speed.

Consider in the same race the BMW of Nick Heidfeld, who sat behind a much slower car for ages and ages. While Barcelona is a tougher place to pass, the era of racers showing there stuff went years and years ago. Now they save their tyres and wait for a pitstop. And the final part of the race is dedicated to finishing, and preserving the engine and the gearbox (which has to last four races now).

Is it any surprise that the term "racer" is an historical one when viewed from Formula One's perspective?

Years ago it was revealed that McLaren drivers - DC and Mika - had an agreement: the first car out of the first corner had leadership rights for that race. And things are even worse now. The first corner is everything, unless radically different fuel strategies apply.

And the only way a heavier fueled car can work, is if there is an SC appearing at the right time. If the SC doesn't appear, then the heavier fueled car will get pushed back because of the slower cars that it cannot pass holding it up and holding it up so that it goes backwards into an uncompetitive position.

There's no need for racers in today's F1.

I don't follow Nascar, but I reckon racers would do better in that environment.






#125 scousepenguin

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 07:24

I seem to recall drivers last year saying the mirrors are hard to see into these days? :eek:

What I don't understand is that if I was a designer, I would have mirrors that were 'very' wide, aerodynamically profiled, and adjustable. Wing like, in fact. :lol:

They allow all sorts of winglets that are ugly on the car, why not super-wide mirrors?

#126 karlth

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 08:30

I remember another gem of a quote from Coulthard about a fellow driver.

"People always pick up on the point that Damon [Hill] is a crap racing diver and he is."

#127 kamix

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 08:45

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Its a term used for a driving style.


No it's not. When used in the correct context it is eg. "that guy is a true racer" or "he is the definition of a racer". Saying the guy has always been labelled a racer is like saying the blue thing above our heads has always been labelled the sky. Plus, it's stupid as no one ever "labels" him that apart from RA.

#128 Melbourne Park

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 08:52

Originally posted by kamix


No it's not. When used in the correct context it is eg. "that guy is a true racer" or "he is the definition of a racer". Saying the guy has always been labelled a racer is like saying the blue thing above our heads has always been labelled the sky. Plus, it's stupid as no one ever "labels" him that apart from RA.


I don't agree about your definition of racer. its nothing like blue sky. Its a common term, and refers to someone who is particularly combative on the track. A racer doesn't have to be the fastest out there - its an attitude thing, and also a combat thing.

Its not something you need in F1 at the moment though, IMO.

#129 thiscocks

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 14:13

Originally posted by karlth
I remember another gem of a quote from Coulthard about a fellow driver.

"People always pick up on the point that Damon [Hill] is a crap racing diver and he is."


Didnt know he said that :eek: what a tosser. He certainly didn't manage to back up this comment by beating Hill when he was team mates with him thats for sure...

#130 Scudetto

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 15:16

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
Its a common term, and refers to someone who is particularly combative on the track. A racer doesn't have to be the fastest out there - its an attitude thing, and also a combat thing.


Is that a Tom Wolfe (The Right Stuff) reference?

#131 HP

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 15:22

Originally posted by Melbourne Park
There's no need for racers in today's F1.

I'd think there is certainly a need for racers!

To put your view in a positive perspective. These days it needs more skill than ever to pass on track. Kudos to anyone who manages it.

#132 Melbourne Park

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 22:34

Originally posted by HP
I'd think there is certainly a need for racers!

To put your view in a positive perspective. These days it needs more skill than ever to pass on track. Kudos to anyone who manages it.

You are a romantic HP! Forza!

I think the most valuable asset in F1 these days is the ability to warm your tyres properly in qualifying.

#133 Melbourne Park

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 22:39

Originally posted by Scudetto


Is that a Tom Wolfe (The Right Stuff) reference?

One of my favourite books, but no. The term is also much older than that book! I guess the combative term maybe doesn't fit too well with motor racing, but F1 used to be as fatal as it was for those test fighter jocks. I feel like looking up something on racers - but there is much written I am sure about what it means. Another car word that people may not understand is what a roadster means.

Of course, I might be completely wrong!

#134 WACKO

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 14:01

It may be that he underestimated it, but he had a good start of the season in Australia. The fact that he just missed out on Q2 in qualifying is also poor timing from the team, but in general I think DC should do a little more to convince that he still has what it takes. He's very convinced himself, but that won't be enough. His age is definitely not going to be an advantage when people are starting to put some question marks.