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#1 Wark611

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 09:53

Hello,
my name is Davide Marchi, I'm an Italian journalist, I'm looking for infos on some US drivers that, even marginally, were involved in F.1 during that period (1950-1960).

- Joe Giba
Did not qualify at 1958 Indianapolis 500
- I need his date of death (I only now is October 1986 but I don't know on which day)

- Bill Doster
I only know he tried to qualify for Indy 1953 on a Volker-Offenhauser by Olszeswki. I also know he tried twice to race at Detroit in 1951 and 1953.
I need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.

- Jim Mayes
DId not qualify a Kurtis-Offy by Dr. Morris at the 1953 Indianapolis 500
I need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.

- Dick Page
Did not qualify a car that probably was a Kurtis-Offy by Bardahl/Page (probably is own team in part) at the 1951 Indisnapolis 500. I say "probably" because on the same year he drove that car at a race at San Jose.
I need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.
I also need confermation of the car he drove at Indy

- Roscoe Rann
Did not qualify at 1951 Indianapolis 500.
I don't know on what chassis-engine and team

- Albert Scully
Did not arrive, but was entered, at 1952 Indianapolis 500 on a car entered by Ellen Automic team. I need to know the chassis and the engine.
I also know he was from Chicago but I don't know his birthdate and (eventually) his deathdate and place

- Roy Sherman, born Roy Scheuermann
Did not qualify at the 1951 Indianapolis 500.
I don't know on what chassis-engine and team even if that year he drove at Langhorne and Darlington on a Silnes/Sherman-Offy by Leitenberge, so probably he was driving the same car at Indy too

and finally

- Ben Zukor
Was entered but then declined due to phisical problems at 1950 Indianapolis 500.
I don't know on what chassis-engine and team
I also need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.

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#2 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 10:17

Originally posted by Wark611
- Jim Mayes
DId not qualify a Kurtis-Offy by Dr. Morris at the 1953 Indianapolis 500
I need his date of birth and birthplace and (eventually) the one of death and the place.


He was from Princeton, Indiana but that's about all I (and others) have found so far.

#3 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 16:52

- Joe Giba

... was a Midget great from Colorado, actually he was more of a "regular" than a "great", but he never really raced anything else seriously, to my knowledge at least, except perhaps for motorcycles prior to his four-wheel career. He was a good friend to a fellow Coloradoian... :o another driver from Colorado, Johnnie Tolan, and was Tolan's chief mechanic for many years in the Carl Anderson team. In those days, chief mechanics often took some laps in "their" cars as a sort of shake-down run in early May - it's a matter of debate if they should be included in lists of non-starters, as Richie will no doubt agree!;) The one point of interest in the Joe Giba case is that he was actually named as the original driver on the entry list, although I understand this was more of an in-joke, as he was almost 50 years old already. He actually took the driver's test and practiced, but after an early crash he was soon substituted by a "proper" Big Car driver, Eddie Johnson. Giba was back racing Midgets even before Indy qualifying was finished...

#4 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 16:59

- Bill Doster

... I can't say much about, but his car was not a "Volker/Offenhauser", it was an Olszweski/Voelker - the engine was a Voelker V12 of 4380 cc engine capacity, nothing to do with Offenhauser.

EDIT: Doster was active as a Midget driver late forties through late fifties, hometown listed as Waterford (MI). There was also a Paul Doster racing AAA Midgets in the Michigan/Ohio area in 1950, possibly the same person.

#5 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 17:03

- Jim Mayes

... nothing on him either, except that I can't shake the suspicion that he is the same person as pre-war IMCA and CSRA driver Jeri (or Jary) Mays from Schenectady (NY).

#6 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 17:13

- Dick Page

... was almost certainly a Californian, and very likely related to car owner Ross Page, and perhaps even to pre-war Big Car driver Bill Page. The car he was trying to qualify was actually called a Page/Offenhauser, although the engine wasn't an Offy in the strictest of senses: it was a supercharged 2993 cc Duray engine, made mostly of Miller and/or Offenhauser parts.

#7 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 17:21

- Roscoe Rann

... was originally entered as the driver of the Clancy/Offenhauser that was eventually qualified by Jerry Hoyt 40th fastest. I have him born in 1917 in Texas, but not very sure of the source - Richie, maybe? Clancy was from Tennessee, perhaps another lead, as I don't have anything else on Rann. You've picked quite a few of the very hardest nuts to crack open! :D

#8 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 17:34

- Albert Scully

... was the entrant of the "Ellen Atomic Special", there was no driver named, nor do I think the car ever appeared at the track, perhaps it never existed outside of the imagination of Mr. Scully. The engine was listed as a 270 ci 4-cylinder with the dimensions 4 5/16 * 4 7/16 (which, incidentally, works out to 259 ci) - which may have been a short-stroke version of the Offenhauser 270 (4 5/16 * 4 5/8), or maybe not. Albert Scully may have been the same as the 1930s car owner Al Scully, or he may have been a relative of the 1930s Big Car driver Vincent Scully from Philadelphia, or maybe not - or maybe both! :confused:

#9 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 17:45

- Roy Sherman

... was a well known Midget driver trying to break into Big Cars in the early fifties, first with a Leitenberger/Offenhauser Sprint Car, and then a Champ Car of the same make. After failing to come to terms with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, he began to lose confidence, and was subsequently replaced by Jimmy Bryan and Andy Linden, respectively. He finished the year as chief mechanic for the team (he had helped build the cars in the first place), then moved on to other teams in this capacity. He apparently died in 1968.

Oh, and btw, I wouldn't call Sherman a "secondary US driver"! He was the 1948 National Midget Champion, and 7th in the 1950 Eastern Circuit Big Car Championship with one win, ahead of guys like Hank Rogers, Bill Schindler, Johnnie Parsons and Buster Warke.

#10 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 17:55

- Ben Zukor

... was entered in 1950 as the driver of #76 "Pioneer Auto Repair Special", owned by John Lorenz. I don't know if Mr. Zukor ever appeared at the track (or any of his personal "data", for that matter), but the car was eventually qualified by Jim Rathmann, and finished 24th and last. It was a Schoof/Offenhauser, apparently built in 1939.

#11 Jim Thurman

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 19:13

Originally posted by fines
- Joe Giba

Coloradan (but, I can relate, it's so tough to figure these terms. It would help if there was some consistency).

Giba certainly was a very good Midget racer, turning in some remarkable drives in Colorado events (RMMRA) into his 60's (!).

The reason we don't have a date of death for Giba is the Social Security Death Index only gives a month :

Originally posted by fines
- Bill Doster

... I can't say much about, but his car was not a "Volker/Offenhauser", it was an Olszweski/Voelker - the engine was a Voelker V12 of 4380 cc engine capacity, nothing to do with Offenhauser.

EDIT: Doster was active as a Midget driver late forties through late fifties, hometown listed as Waterford (MI). There was also a Paul Doster racing AAA Midgets in the Michigan/Ohio area in 1950, possibly the same person.

Yes, the Voelker. Between that engine and the lump of a car that Mike Burch showed up in, two of the most bizarre and, dare I say, impractical cars to arrive at Indy? (and that's really saying something :D )

Ok, I thought Doster might be from Michigan since two of his three attempts to qualify for a Championship race were at the Michigan State Fairgrounds. I'll check with Allan E. Brown, but I've narrowed it to two using the SSDI.


#12 Jim Thurman

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 19:17

Originally posted by fines
- Jim Mayes

... nothing on him either, except that I can't shake the suspicion that he is the same person as pre-war IMCA and CSRA driver Jeri (or Jary) Mays from Schenectady (NY).

Michael, see Richie's post above. When Richie was working on "Where Are They Now?", a Midget and Jalopy racer from Indiana was what we came up with.

Originally posted by fines
- Roscoe Rann

... was originally entered as the driver of the Clancy/Offenhauser that was eventually qualified by Jerry Hoyt 40th fastest. I have him born in 1917 in Texas, but not very sure of the source - Richie, maybe? Clancy was from Tennessee, perhaps another lead, as I don't have anything else on Rann. You've picked quite a few of the very hardest nuts to crack open! :D

I found Roscoe Rann in the SSDI. It had been listed as Romm many places. He is listed in the SSDI and Texas death records, but he also made three starts in NASCAR's top series, and here's where it gets interesting.

Those three starts were at Memph-Ark Speedway in Lehi, Arkansas, not too far from Memphis...and his "hometown" in the NASCAR Encyclopedia was listed as Memphis (!).

Yet, I've seen references to him being a Midget racer out of Dallas.

#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 19:33

Originally posted by Wark611
Hello,
my name is Davide Marchi, I'm an Italian journalist, I'm looking for info on some US drivers that, even marginally, were involved in F.1 during that period (1950-1960).


Hi Davide, nice to have you come along, hope you stay and enjoy this forum for a long time...

On this subject, I'm sure you mean 'World Championship' rather than 'F1'?

#14 Jim Thurman

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 19:36

Oh, and welcome Davide :wave:

I was going to suggest you try here, but you beat me to it.

#15 fines

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 20:06

Jim, don't you have nothing on Dick Page? I would be very surprised if he wasn't from So. Cal.!

:blush: And Davide, [pleaase excuse my bad manners!] WELCOME!

#16 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 02 May 2008 - 22:42

Originally posted by fines
- Roscoe Rann

I have him born in 1917 in Texas, but not very sure of the source - Richie, maybe? Clancy was from Tennessee, perhaps another lead, as I don't have anything else on Rann.


Rann was sorted a long time ago - http://www.oldracing...irstname=Roscoe

I have also seen him as being listed from Memphis, but the guy above is very definitely THE RR.

#17 Wark611

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 00:15

Originally posted by Ray Bell


Hi Davide, nice to have you come along, hope you stay and enjoy this forum for a long time...

On this subject, I'm sure you mean 'World Championship' rather than 'F1'?



Working on my daily newspaper on today's F.1 writing "F.1" or "World Championship" is, unfortunately, exactly the same thing, so I was wrong writing the first post.
You're absolutely right, I'm interested only in F.1 WC events and I'm terribly fascinated by 1950-1960 Indy period.
I was used to say with some friends from La Gazzetta dello Sport (the newspaper where I would like to work one day) that my hardest research was the one on Azdrubel Fontes Bayardo ten year ago or so.
I was wrong, these Indy's dismissed guys are getting me crazy...

Thank you so much to everybody for your help and support...

#18 Wark611

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 01:41

This is for Richie's website (and for everibody who is curious enough to read)
Let's see if me too can give you something...

I've got some possible updates for you
- Michele Alboreto died on Italy's anniversary of the last day of World War II that in our country is an high day. That night Italy's National Football team (now world champion) had to play South Africa in a friendly match. Before the beginning of the game there was one minute of silence. A unique honor (I don't remember something similar in Italy to a driver) to a great man.

- Giovanna Amati was a girlfriend to Niki Lauda for a while

- Mario Andretti was present, even if not personally, at 2008 Vinitaly with his products (Californian white wines). Vinitaly is one of the most important wine meeting in the world and is hosted every year by Verona (I'm lucky enough to live in Verona so I was able to taste his wines... but not only, I was also very lucky to be on a bicycle rather than on a car... :stoned: )

- Jarno Trulli too, but for the second consecutive year, was present at Vinitaly with his wines (red from central Italy, Abruzzo). His stand was very easy to find, it was the only one with a Toyota TF107 on the entry...

- The Fabi's family busines is not in Albredo d'Adse but in Albaredo d'Adige, a small town 20 kms east from Verona.

- Lorenzo Bandini was born in Libya but soon came back to Italy with his family. He lived in Brisighella, near Ravenna (in Romagna). So in 1992, 25 years from that Monaco accident, his city started to give an award called "Premio Bandini" each year. The award is given to the bravest driver in European races. This year was won by Robert Kubica.

- Giulio Cabianca, the only track driver from Verona...

- Eugenio Castellotti had a girlfriend called Delia Scala that was very famous in Italy. Castellotti died on a misterious accident as the post crash analysis failed to find what went wrong. That's probably because Castellotti was obliged to wake up very early in the morning after a night in Florence with Delia without Ferrari's permission. Somebody said that Castelloti falled asleep while driving the car

- Andrea De Adamich from at least 22 years is the anchorman of a tv magazine called Gran Prix aired by commercial tv Italia1 on sundays at 12

- Luigi Fagioli's nickname was "Il ladro degli Abruzzi" (thief from Abruzzo, actually birthland of Jarno Trulli)

- Giancarlo Fisichella also work with the Italian pay tv Sky at each Gp weekend in 2008

- Robert Doornbos raced for two different countries. In his first F.1 campaign, with Minardi, he represented Monaco because having a Monaco superlicence was easier than a dutch one. The following year, with Red Bull, he was racing for Holland as expected

- Marc Gene just like Fisichella is also a Gp commentator for the Italian pay Tv Sky

- Gimax quite recently (2002) suffered an heart attack. He had my father as a doctor while in hospital at Legnago (35 kms from Verona) and I had the chance to talk with him before the surgery to plant 4 by-pass. Now is quite well.

- José Froilan Gonzales (one of my favourite F.1 drivers) is definetly well even if has big hearing problems. I met him at Monza in 2002 and was in trouble trying to hear what I was screaming to him. He apologized to me and asked to scream even stronger...

- Taki Inoue is maybe best remembered for what happenend at the Hungarian Gp in 1995. He had to stop with is Footwork having a fire coming from his broken Hart V10 engine. Taki jumped off the car but was put knock down by the marshals' car. He was loucky to escape unhurt from this episode

- Regazzoni when died was going to a meeting of the Club Italia (an historic car owners club) in Parma. He was almost there, only few kms from his destination...

- Ayrton Senna on May 1 1994 in his racesuit had his usual Brazilian flag (he had it in his pocket after it was banned the chance to have it from a fan alongside the track) but also an Austrian one. He was sure to win and wanted to celebrate Roland Ratzenberger's memory...

- Gabriele Tarquini is a tv commentator for GP2 and F.BMW for the Italian pay tv Sky

- Riccardo Patrese is a tv commentator for F.1 for the Italian pay tv Sky. Riccardo is also one of the greatest collectors of mini electric-trains.

- Alex Zanardi is becoming a handybike marathon top runner. Last sunday took part at the Padua Marathon finishing 27th but only because he had a crash that damaged his handybike. He crossed the finish line bleeding (I was there and had a quick interview at the end of the race) but satisfied... He's also thinking entering the paralympics games in Beijing

#19 fines

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:13

I took the liberty to check the Trackforum thread, and found I can add a bit, but I cannot post there anymore, so I will do it here:

Jay Abney

... I have listed as coming from Phoenix (AZ), a former motorcycle racer (1949 Arizona State Champion) and competing in Jalopies and Roadsters in Arizona and California in the early fifties (14th in CRA points in 1955). It's the first time I hear that he should have competed at Indy, though nothing's impossible I guess. :confused:

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#20 fines

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:27

Wally Campbell

... took the rookie test in Charlie Marant's 1948 Moore/Offenhauser. Marant had been a former associate of Lou Moore and bought the car after the 1950 Indianapolis race, in which George Connor finished 8th with it. Marant later became friendly with Campbell, and helped him with his Hillegass Sprint Car while running NASCAR. When Campbell was turned down by the Speedway officials, Marant sold the car to Bob Christie of Oregon, who in turn sold it to fellow Oregonian :o [help, Jim!] Rolla Vollstedt.

I have never heard of Campbell practicing in the Salemi car, but I haven't read the Andy Dunlop book yet. But, Campbell was definietly entered in the #66 for Marant; Salemi's car was entered as #42 without a driver, it eventually kept its former #81, and this became Salemi's standard number for next two decades.

#21 fines

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:35

Willard "Billy" Cantrell

... definitely practiced at Indy, car was a brandnew Pankratz/Offenhauser built for Emmett Malloy. I believe Edgar Elder took over that car? Cantrell was well known as a Midget driver, a three-time URA Champion before joining AAA. He continued to run the "doodlebugs" until the end of his career, in 1964. His Big Car career didn't get off the ground too well, at first, and he is often confused with "Bill" Cantrell from Kentucky, who raced Big Cars and Power Boats around the same time ("Bill" stopped racing cars after 1953, and won two PBA National Championships, 1949 & '63). "Billy" finally found a home racing CRA Sprint Cars in California, winning a lot of races and finishing runner-up in points three times.

#22 fines

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:39

Neal Carter

... was the original driver for the Kurtis/Offenhauser #25 of the Automobile Shippers team in 1952. He definitely practiced, but I think he failed to find the speed for a qualifying attempt, so Walt Faulkner eventually took over. Neal was another Midget great, winning the AAA Michigan/Ohio Championship in both 1950 and 1951. He was not related to Duane Carter, but he was the brother of Vic Carter. Neal had some success with the Big Cars, but virtually retired after failing to find the speed to qualify the same Auto Shippers Kurtis at Indy in 1953 - Faulkner subbed again, to "finish" 17th with some help of Johnny Mantz.

#23 fines

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:43

Perry Grimm

... was originally entered as the driver of the new #55 Ansted/Offenhauser in 1952 and, much like Carter, failed to get up to speed and was substituted by Bobby Ball who had crashed his original mount. Perry was another Midget Champion, AAA Pacific Coast in 1949, and he was also a two-time "Turkey Night Grand Prix" winner, 1946 & #49. He was not much of a Big Car driver, though I believe he won one of the few URA Big Car races at Carrell Speedway in April 1953, on the same day that (unrelated) Bobby Grim won a CSRA Big Car race at Powell Speedway! :)

#24 fines

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 09:46

Tommy Hinnershitz

... at Indy in 1952??? I don't think I have ever heard of that! Driving the #27 Blue Crown? That car was listed for Leroy Warriner, and was eventually raced by Tony Bettenhausen after Tony had crashed his original car.

#25 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 20:28

Thanks Davide for the info. Finding stuff about Bayardo is a piece of piss when you compare it to the likes of some Indy non-qualifiers like Ralph Holmes & Tom Casman.... :mad: :lol:

#26 fines

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 20:51

Well, perhaps if you looked for Tom Cosman...;) I thought I told you that before? :confused:

#27 Vicuna

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 02:45

Originally posted by Wark611
This is for Richie's website (and for everibody who is curious enough to read)
Let's see if me too can give you something...

I've got some possible updates for you
- Michele Alboreto died on Italy's anniversary of the last day of World War II that in our country is an high day. That night Italy's National Football team (now world champion) had to play South Africa in a friendly match. Before the beginning of the game there was one minute of silence. A unique honor (I don't remember something similar in Italy to a driver) to a great man.

- Giovanna Amati was a girlfriend to Niki Lauda for a while

- Mario Andretti was present, even if not personally, at 2008 Vinitaly with his products (Californian white wines). Vinitaly is one of the most important wine meeting in the world and is hosted every year by Verona (I'm lucky enough to live in Verona so I was able to taste his wines... but not only, I was also very lucky to be on a bicycle rather than on a car... :stoned: )

- Jarno Trulli too, but for the second consecutive year, was present at Vinitaly with his wines (red from central Italy, Abruzzo). His stand was very easy to find, it was the only one with a Toyota TF107 on the entry...

- The Fabi's family busines is not in Albredo d'Adse but in Albaredo d'Adige, a small town 20 kms east from Verona.

- Lorenzo Bandini was born in Libya but soon came back to Italy with his family. He lived in Brisighella, near Ravenna (in Romagna). So in 1992, 25 years from that Monaco accident, his city started to give an award called "Premio Bandini" each year. The award is given to the bravest driver in European races. This year was won by Robert Kubica.

- Giulio Cabianca, the only track driver from Verona...

- Eugenio Castellotti had a girlfriend called Delia Scala that was very famous in Italy. Castellotti died on a misterious accident as the post crash analysis failed to find what went wrong. That's probably because Castellotti was obliged to wake up very early in the morning after a night in Florence with Delia without Ferrari's permission. Somebody said that Castelloti falled asleep while driving the car

- Andrea De Adamich from at least 22 years is the anchorman of a tv magazine called Gran Prix aired by commercial tv Italia1 on sundays at 12

- Luigi Fagioli's nickname was "Il ladro degli Abruzzi" (thief from Abruzzo, actually birthland of Jarno Trulli)

- Giancarlo Fisichella also work with the Italian pay tv Sky at each Gp weekend in 2008

- Robert Doornbos raced for two different countries. In his first F.1 campaign, with Minardi, he represented Monaco because having a Monaco superlicence was easier than a dutch one. The following year, with Red Bull, he was racing for Holland as expected

- Marc Gene just like Fisichella is also a Gp commentator for the Italian pay Tv Sky

- Gimax quite recently (2002) suffered an heart attack. He had my father as a doctor while in hospital at Legnago (35 kms from Verona) and I had the chance to talk with him before the surgery to plant 4 by-pass. Now is quite well.

- José Froilan Gonzales (one of my favourite F.1 drivers) is definetly well even if has big hearing problems. I met him at Monza in 2002 and was in trouble trying to hear what I was screaming to him. He apologized to me and asked to scream even stronger...

- Taki Inoue is maybe best remembered for what happenend at the Hungarian Gp in 1995. He had to stop with is Footwork having a fire coming from his broken Hart V10 engine. Taki jumped off the car but was put knock down by the marshals' car. He was loucky to escape unhurt from this episode

- Regazzoni when died was going to a meeting of the Club Italia (an historic car owners club) in Parma. He was almost there, only few kms from his destination...

- Ayrton Senna on May 1 1994 in his racesuit had his usual Brazilian flag (he had it in his pocket after it was banned the chance to have it from a fan alongside the track) but also an Austrian one. He was sure to win and wanted to celebrate Roland Ratzenberger's memory...

- Gabriele Tarquini is a tv commentator for GP2 and F.BMW for the Italian pay tv Sky

- Riccardo Patrese is a tv commentator for F.1 for the Italian pay tv Sky. Riccardo is also one of the greatest collectors of mini electric-trains.

- Alex Zanardi is becoming a handybike marathon top runner. Last sunday took part at the Padua Marathon finishing 27th but only because he had a crash that damaged his handybike. He crossed the finish line bleeding (I was there and had a quick interview at the end of the race) but satisfied... He's also thinking entering the paralympics games in Beijing



#28 Vicuna

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 02:46

FANTASTIC!!!!!!

Welcome welcome welcome

#29 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 12:16

Originally posted by fines
Well, perhaps if you looked for Tom Cosman...;) I thought I told you that before? :confused:


It doesn't help either way........ I might as well look for the Yeti....


I think it is Casman, though.

#30 fines

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 14:08

No, it's definitely Cosman. He wasn't very well known, but I have several references to Thomas Cosman in AAA Pacific Coast racing in the early thirties. I know you have access to NewspaperArchive, go check the Daily Capital News of Jefferson City (MO) of Wednesday, May 19 in 1937 if you don't believe me. On page 7 there's an article about Rudolph Wehr and his two Indy entries, and

This year Wehr has signed a couple of speedway youngsters — Frank Wearne and Thomas Cosman, both of Los Angeles — to drive his entries.

:)

If Cosman was indeed Yeti, he must have adapted well to So. Cal. weather conditions, then! :lol:

#31 Jim Thurman

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 19:55

Originally posted by fines
I took the liberty to check the Trackforum thread, and found I can add a bit, but I cannot post there anymore, so I will do it here:

Jay Abney

... I have listed as coming from Phoenix (AZ), a former motorcycle racer (1949 Arizona State Champion) and competing in Jalopies and Roadsters in Arizona and California in the early fifties (14th in CRA points in 1955). It's the first time I hear that he should have competed at Indy, though nothing's impossible I guess. :confused:

The most I've ever heard about Abney. A difficulty in tracking him down is "Jay". It could be a nickname for any first name starting with J (James, Jason, Julius, Justin, etc.) or a middle initial that he adopted.

Too bad Don Radbruch isn't here to check with, Abney being a roadster racer :(

I've never been too sure about the guy I found for Richie...less so now (sorry Richie : )

Originally posted by fines
Willard "Billy" Cantrell
Cantrell was well known as a Midget driver, a three-time URA Champion before joining AAA. He continued to run the "doodlebugs" until the end of his career, in 1964. His Big Car career didn't get off the ground too well, at first, and he is often confused with "Bill" Cantrell from Kentucky, who raced Big Cars and Power Boats around the same time ("Bill" stopped racing cars after 1953, and won two PBA National Championships, 1949 & '63). "Billy" finally found a home racing CRA Sprint Cars in California, winning a lot of races and finishing runner-up in points three times.

I actually remember seeing Bill Cantrell when I was a kid. He was racing Super Modifieds, soon retiring to become a starter and then official with the NMRA (T.Q. Midgets) and USAC Midgets. Never heard him called "Billy", but he was too old for that then. He was called "The Silver Fox" by the time I was seeing him.

As always, excellent stuff Michael :up:

#32 Jim Thurman

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 19:57

Originally posted by fines
Neal Carter

And of all those mentioned here, still around.

Perhaps someone should contact him. He was living in Florida.

#33 Jim Thurman

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 20:02

Originally posted by fines
Jim, don't you have nothing on Dick Page? I would be very surprised if he wasn't from So. Cal.!

Nope...nothing, nada, nicht. Definitely believe him to be a California racer, but not sure whether No. or So.

Originally posted by fines
Wally Campbell
Marant sold the car to Bob Christie of Oregon, who in turn sold it to fellow Oregonian :o [help, Jim!] Rolla Vollstedt.

:D You are correct sir!, it is Oregonian :up:

#34 fines

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 23:05

Jim, I use "Bill" and "Billy" Cantrell to differentiate between the two - the Kentuck... :( the one from Kentucky is always called "Bill", while the Californian :smoking: is sometimes refered to as "Billy", "Bill" and, of course "Silver Fox"! :D

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
:D You are correct sir!, it is Oregonian :up:

Phew, one out of two, or two out of four... is there a source on the net for all 50 states??? :cat:

#35 fines

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Posted 04 May 2008 - 23:35

Well, found one: http://www.geography...monyms_usa.html :)

But I wonder how many people actually say "Indianan", or even "Massachusettsan"! Or "Maineiac" :lol:

#36 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 16:35

Originally posted by fines
I took the liberty to check the Trackforum thread, and found I can add a bit, but I cannot post there anymore, so I will do it here:

Jay Abney

... I have listed as coming from Phoenix (AZ), a former motorcycle racer (1949 Arizona State Champion) and competing in Jalopies and Roadsters in Arizona and California in the early fifties (14th in CRA points in 1955). It's the first time I hear that he should have competed at Indy, though nothing's impossible I guess. :confused:


Having been alerted to this by Jim -

I have seen another reference to Abney as being from California (no place, just Californian.)

Now, there is a Jay Abney b. 1901 & living in Pirtleville, Arizona, but that surely wouldn't be the same man?

There are three men who all have the first letter J & surname Abney from the SSDI & no living Jay Abney in Arizona.

So, there's not a huge lot of candidates to choose from quite frankly...

#37 fines

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 21:08

Born in 1901 would indeed seem too old. As for residence, I've had several mentions from his motorcycle days in the forties to his CRA days in 1955, always stating Phoenix. Perhaps he relocated later, or even moved to Arizona from somewhere else, I don't know. Also, could it be possible that "Jay" was just a nick, based on whatever, and that his real name was Arnold, Curt or Rudolph... you know, that Melvin Eugene Bettenhausen guy did race under a somewhat different name, also! :confused:

#38 Jim Thurman

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 07:22

Originally posted by fines
Jim, I use "Bill" and "Billy" Cantrell to differentiate between the two - the Kentuck... :( the one from Kentucky is always called "Bill", while the Californian :smoking: is sometimes refered to as "Billy", "Bill" and, of course "Silver Fox"! :D

Phew, one out of two, or two out of four... is there a source on the net for all 50 states??? :cat:

I thought so and understand completely. Might I suggest, Bill (KY) and Bill (CA) or middle initials?

Kentuckianan. Not to confuse the issue, but Willard was born in Missouri (Missourian), but lived in and raced out of California. Me, I'm a native Texan (but have no memories of Texas), Arizona resident for a couple of years and a California resident since age 3.

Source?, not that I know of (oh, I see you found one :up: ). You are right that some are more commonly used than others and some virtually unknown. Some have more than one that is "correct" (probably through misusage). And newspapers and media here are often wrong. You have a far better success rate than they do...already.

Good, once you master that, then you can work on names for natives of respective cities or regions :D

Berliner, Hamburger, Dortmunder, Stuttgarter...at least the Anglicized version is far easier for those from certain German cities ;)

#39 Jim Thurman

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 08:09

I've checked the Arizona birth records and no males with the surname Abney born after 1900.

A check of the California birth index shows the one Richard has (b. 1931) and otherwise, only one other reasonable possibility.

For $3 US (for costs), the library in the county where the above Abney passed away will provide a copy of the newspaper obituary. I don't know if it would provide anything definitive, but it might.

I know, let's all chip in a dollar! :lol:

I wish we had a hometown.

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#40 fines

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 08:44

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Good, once you master that, then you can work on names for natives of respective cities or regions :D

Oh, please don't, Mr. Thurman, not before summer vacations! We already have so much homework to do for other classes! :(

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
Berliner, Hamburger, Dortmunder, Stuttgarter...at least the Anglicized version is far easier for those from certain German cities ;)

Thankfully it's the same in German, and funnily most of these are connected with other things - a Berliner is a sort of doughnut, a Hamburger the well known US product, a Düsseldorfer is a transport pallet, etc.

I am a Bitburger, which of course is a BEER! :D Cheers! :drunk:

#41 fines

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 08:46

Originally posted by Jim Thurman
I wish we had a hometown.

I wish we had a life! :lol:

#42 Wark611

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:34

Hi guys, I'm back from China...

#43 Wark611

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 10:44

This is for Richie.
On your website you include AJ Sheperd and Bob Wente on the F.1 Where are they now.
But I only found Indy entries over 1960.
So they are not part of the WCF.1 history.
Can you give me confermation of this?

#44 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 11:25

I was told they were 1960 Non-Qualifiers after I originally left them off. Is that now not the case? (I admit I cannot find now any proof that they were there, but about 3 or 4 years ago when I queried Giba etc. I was told they should be added?)

Jim, Michael, anyone else? It's no bother to me as all I have to do is change their category which takes two seconds..

#45 fines

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 17:23

Shepherd didn't join USAC until very late that season, September or October, so he's definitely out. Wente I have only in Midgets for the entire year, but I suppose it's possible he was at Indy, I simply don't have any info of it.

#46 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 18:22

Originally posted by Wark611
So they are not part of the WCF.1 history.


Neither is any one who competed prior to the WCF.1 being established in 1981 and not after it was in place from that season onward.

#47 Jim Thurman

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 20:20

Originally posted by fines

I wish we had a life! :lol:


:lol:

As far as Wente and Shepherd, Wente attempted to qualify for a couple of USAC Championship races in '59, but was a DNQ and was not listed as being at Indy in 1960 while Shepherd's first listed attempt was at the Sacramento race in Fall 1960.

So, no, neither of them listed as being at Indianapolis in 1960.

Sorry, Richie, I feel like I've really let you down with some of what's come to light recently :

#48 Richard Jenkins

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 22:58

Originally posted by Jim Thurman

Sorry, Richie, I feel like I've really let you down with some of what's come to light recently :


Not at all. See the other thread for my explanation, plus my Peter Hahn boob. And.. dare I admit it... yes I will, a mistake with Joe Baker, likewise?

I think I'd hate you if you were perfect, Jim. I'd hate myself if I was. :lol: I'm glad we're in a particular part of the business where it's all (with very few exceptions) share & help, not egotistical & hoarding away like a miser & mistakes will be made, but they will be corrected.

God, that's too lovey-dovey for 11.57pm...... :D

#49 Wark611

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Posted 04 June 2008 - 01:17

Hi guys, I'm back after my Pc suffered a stroke...
I had to format everything...
I've just finished...
Did I lost the fatidical day we discovered the real life of Mike Burch?!?!

#50 Jim Thurman

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Posted 05 June 2008 - 18:09

Davide, welcome back.

No. Nothing new on the Mike Burch front or for that matter, any of the others with one exception...

Jay Abney. Richie and I came up with Jay Oliver Abney (b. 26 Aug 1931 Anaheim, California, d. 10 Jun 1958 Sutter, California). I recently received the newspaper items on Abney that appeared in the Yuba City Appeal-Democrat. An item on his fatal truck accident in Sutter County and his obituary. He was listed as a commercial truck driver employed by his stepfather, a resident of Linda, California at the time, and was listed as a native of Santa Ana, California (conflicting with the state death index records, but they are adjacent cities). Among survivors listed, father, Jay, of Sacramento.

That's it, no other biographical data in his obit :

So, nothing conclusive. I have a feeling this may not be the right fellow, but as Richie noted, there aren't a lot of candidates.