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Citroen pondering DTM


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#1 jcbc3

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 11:28

According to this story from Autosport, Citroen has stated that they will consider switching from Rally to DTM at the end of 2009. Citroen cite the lack of a decent promotional package for WRC and that there is more value for money and a better platform for promoting their cars in DTM

So would anyone think that a Citroen C5 in DTM would be cool?

For my part I would think that Citroen has displayed a good grasp of the necessities of putting a professional programme together in WRC (I guess the ill fated BX stunt taught them a big lesson), but I am afraid that the DTM is a whole other kettle of fish.

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#2 jokuvaan

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 11:32

Better spend that money in proper ads.

#3 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 11:32

renault have been successful in f1, citroen in wrc...i don't see why citroen can't do good in DTM

#4 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 11:45

Would make a good fit for their unmistakeably German advertising campaign, if it's still running in 2010.

#5 Imperial

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 12:09

You know what? Citroen are absolutely right. The WRC absolutely stinks in terms of promotion. What promotion???? Exactly...

In reality the only time anyone ever hears of the WRC is when the latest (in a long line) British TV company to broadcast it harps on about how their package will be superior to the last broadcaster's and how WRC is gonna be put back on the map, blah blah.

It never happens of course and nothing ever changes. 'Dave' doesn't seem to push it as much recently as when they first took it on.

One of the other problems is that there is simply no challenge in the WRC. It's basically Loeb, a few blokes you may have heard about and a lot you probably have never heard of.

Citroen are never going to admit to that though. Obviously it doesn't look good to be promoting the latest Citroen models with the tagline "We won the WRC again - the competition was shit!"

At least in the DTM they'll be challenged. If Citroen do that I do however think the WRC will be in it's worst position ever. If the mighty Citroen don't want to be involved then who will?

The only manufacturer in recent times I have heard may have made a comeback was Hyundai, but that was some time ago and it's been mighty quiet for some time.

You don't need to examine the TV figures either. Everyone I know who used to watch WRC, including me, no longer watches it, mostly because there's little point.

Such a waste of what used to be a really fine series. It barely deserves to have the word "World" in it's title, cos it certainly ain't world-class anymore.

#6 tormave

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 12:46

Quitting WRC I understand, but DTM as a substitution? Yes, you can do lots of promotion in Germany with DTM but as a competitive and entertainment entity the series is even more dead than what WRC ever has been. The last straw was Audi withdrawing all its cars in one race last year after a couple of misjudged Merc driver overtaking attempts. WTCC would be a lot better choice.

#7 dawg_7529

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 12:59

i agree. dtm is boring as hell. theyd better stick with wrc.

#8 Fatgadget

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 13:30

At the end of the day its the bean counters that have the final say.Most probly some calculations have been done and the returns are not justifying the investments.

#9 daishi255

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 14:12

Originally posted by Imperial
You know what? Citroen are absolutely right. The WRC absolutely stinks in terms of promotion. What promotion???? Exactly...

In reality the only time anyone ever hears of the WRC is when the latest (in a long line) British TV company to broadcast it harps on about how their package will be superior to the last broadcaster's and how WRC is gonna be put back on the map, blah blah.

It never happens of course and nothing ever changes. 'Dave' doesn't seem to push it as much recently as when they first took it on.

One of the other problems is that there is simply no challenge in the WRC. It's basically Loeb, a few blokes you may have heard about and a lot you probably have never heard of.

Citroen are never going to admit to that though. Obviously it doesn't look good to be promoting the latest Citroen models with the tagline "We won the WRC again - the competition was shit!"

At least in the DTM they'll be challenged. If Citroen do that I do however think the WRC will be in it's worst position ever. If the mighty Citroen don't want to be involved then who will?

The only manufacturer in recent times I have heard may have made a comeback was Hyundai, but that was some time ago and it's been mighty quiet for some time.

You don't need to examine the TV figures either. Everyone I know who used to watch WRC, including me, no longer watches it, mostly because there's little point.

Such a waste of what used to be a really fine series. It barely deserves to have the word "World" in it's title, cos it certainly ain't world-class anymore.


While I agree that the WRC is currently a pale shadow of Rallying's former glory, and that there aren't many big names other than Loeb, I think you're mistaken about the competition being being rubbish. Citroen have lost the championship for the last two years to Ford and are behind in this years as well. Loeb is great, but the team hasn't been as successful lately. That's why they don't call themselves WRC champions.

As for going to DTM, it would give them plenty of exposure in Germany, but DTM, WTCC, etc don't really have a much better/higher profile than the WRC. I don't see how that would help sell more cars. Spend the money on ads is right.

#10 pingu666

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 15:37

didnt citroen quit a few years ago ? or was that mostly smoke and mirrors...

loeb seems to win everything, and freeview is easy to forget about :

#11 se7en_24

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 15:38

Excellent news if Citroen do join, DTM pulls such huge crowds that I think it would be a great move for both them and the series. I imagine DTM pulls far more crowds than WRC does and probably more TV viewers as well. It should also be quite a bit cheaper.

#12 jcbc3

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 15:40

They shut down the factory team for one season in order to concentrate on developing the C4. However they handed over all their Xsara machinery and spares to the Kronos team (along with Loeb). So it was a factory team in all but name.

#13 glorius&victorius

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 16:16

Originally posted by Imperial
You know what? Citroen are absolutely right. The WRC absolutely stinks in terms of promotion. What promotion???? Exactly...

In reality the only time anyone ever hears of the WRC is when ....


....Max Mosley shows up because he can't show his face at places with too many press


Good for Citroen! I hope they take Loeb with them

#14 F575 GTC

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 21:39

Citroen in the DTM? I dunno about that really, actually makes me laugh thinking they could take it to Audi & Merc. Perhaps the WTCC is a better way to go for them - heck if Lada want to race in the WTCC then i'm sure Citroen could!

#15 se7en_24

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 21:44

Originally posted by F575 GTC
Citroen in the DTM? I dunno about that really, actually makes me laugh thinking they could take it to Audi & Merc. Perhaps the WTCC is a better way to go for them - heck if Lada want to race in the WTCC then i'm sure Citroen could!

WTCC hardly draws any crowds though, DTM has F1 sized crowds at most races.

#16 noikeee

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 21:53

The funny thing for me is that I live in a place where the WRC has way, way more following than DTM. Even if Eurosport seems to have now stopped showing the WRC highlights late night, every day after a stage. But I reckon where I live in isn't representative of the entire world. :p

Still, DTM, while it has a couple rounds outside Germany, is a german series. Even if it has huge crowds, I don't really understand how it can have higher promotion value than the WRC right now. We're talking about a *worldwide* FIA championship with lots of tradition here.

Aren't they using new regulations for next season already, or something? I read somewhere that this is supposed to attract some of the manufacturers that are in the IRC right now. Besides, if Citroen leaves, won't this actually increase interest in the series.. I mean, the driver/car combo that dominates so much and makes it all so boring, will be broken. It'd be very interesting to see what Loeb can do with another manufacturer...

Just trying to bring some optimism here.

#17 Makarias

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Posted 03 May 2008 - 23:12

The competition bit in WRC is not quite as dreadful as people think. You may notice that Loeb right now is NOT leading the WDC, and Citroën is NOT leading the WCC.

As for live audience, I doubt it's much relevant for Citroën's future plans, but at least some rallies have a very healthy amount of live viewers.

The real problem for WRC is its coverage. Half an hour (if that) per day at some ungodly hour when the results have been available for hours online is barely 90's standard, is it. Their website isn't handsome either, cluttered with stuff you don't care about, instead of what would be really useful: quick, accurate split/stage time updates and live streaming video coverage straight from the rallies.

A third team in DTM would be much needed though, as the two there are right now too easily can focus on screwing each others' main contenders with slowing-down strategies and whatnot. The cars and race format are way better imo than the WTCC, so the series is clearly fun to watch. Too bad that I don't get to see any of it here in Sweden, as it's broadcast on a cable channel (Canal +) that I suspect most people in Sweden don't subscribe to either. So if most people in Sweden (with top driver Mattias Ekström) don't get to see it, just how much exposure would Citroën get from it? How is the coverage elsewhere?

#18 Locai

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 12:47

A French car in a German series?

Next thing you'll tell me is that Toyota wants to join NASCAR!



Oh, wait... :cool:

#19 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 08:35

More complaints from Citroen about the WRC: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68283

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#20 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 08:36

Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinge.

#21 TheCustomer

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 09:07

hey, it would be great to have *any* other manufacturers in the DTM

... but Citroen joining *could* be nothing more than PR puffery. Remember, they're promoting one model as being "German. Made n France."
It costs Citroen next to nothing to run a story about joining DTM, and underpins their marketing proposition.
:kiss:

#22 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 09:31

Can't they do both?!?!?!

And why are BMW not in DTM?!?!

I think DTM has great potential, will be great to see a few more cars in it.

#23 ClubmanGT

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 09:32

They want to know where the spectators are? How about the retarded service park concepts, restricted spectator viewers, less days and less stages in rallies? It's just not worth going to Rally NZ because the art of spectating has been killed off. Now it's more Rallycross than anything else, with one viewing area per stage (start, end) where you can't see the cars in anger, or else it's the Super Special stage (which doesn't even have cars racing side by side anymore).

Sorry WRC, but your drive for an event that can be compressed into a twenty minute TV bulliten has ruined the sport for many of its devoted fans.

#24 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 09:34

Originally posted by Mika Mika

And why are BMW not in DTM?!?!



They don't need to be there, so they aren't. Mercedes want to be there (even though they don't need to) so that's why they are.

#25 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:03

You'd think it would make more sense for BMW to compete against fellow premium marques in the DTM than Seat and Chevrolet in the WTCC? Guess they just like getting new "world champions" stickers every year (this year might be tough though).

#26 andysaint

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:04

In my view Citroen need to leave the WRC. The WRC really needs a kick up the backside and maybe this will do it. They need to review all the promotional tools they've got and the coverage they are getting because at the moment it's diabolical. I've tried watching it recently but got very bored and turned off. They need to get back to basics a bit. The ingredients are there for a good championship but they've got greedy.

As for Fords tactics well they stink. Granted it is legal for them to do it but it's just not sport. The rules need to be looked at to stop that from happening again.

The DTM is not as good as it has been. Again the ingredients are their for it to be great - Good looking exciting cars and great drivers but not enough cars. I'd like to see Citreon in the WTCC where there is lots more cars and competition. Their C4 is probably fighting with those types of cars in the market place too. I'd like to see WTCC given more coverage though.

#27 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:09

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


They don't need to be there, so they aren't. Mercedes want to be there (even though they don't need to) so that's why they are.


Odd answer, no-one needs to be there do they.. I was wandering if there had been a fallout or something??

#28 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:12

Audi does, they aren't in F1 and sportscars aren't very big in Germany so they need a domestic racing presense. Merc is probably there partly because they are only an engine supplier in F1 and this way they get to win in DTM.

Why should BMW do DTM? They are leading the world championship and F1 is very big in Germany.

#29 Al.

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:22

Originally posted by andysaint
In my view Citroen need to leave the WRC. The WRC really needs a kick up the backside and maybe this will do it. They need to review all the promotional tools they've got and the coverage they are getting because at the moment it's diabolical. I've tried watching it recently but got very bored and turned off. They need to get back to basics a bit. The ingredients are there for a good championship but they've got greedy.

As for Fords tactics well they stink. Granted it is legal for them to do it but it's just not sport. The rules need to be looked at to stop that from happening again.

The DTM is not as good as it has been. Again the ingredients are their for it to be great - Good looking exciting cars and great drivers but not enough cars. I'd like to see Citreon in the WTCC where there is lots more cars and competition. Their C4 is probably fighting with those types of cars in the market place too. I'd like to see WTCC given more coverage though.


I posted in the rally Turkey thread. The rules were there for the last 2-3 years to prevent that in that the top 10 run in reverse order on days 2-3. Before that we had what we have now, in 2005 everyone was at it. I've no idea what was behind the change for this year, I agree it seems dumb. I don't think Ford's stink, they are doing what they need to do to win.

Interesting to see to the WRC and FIA take on the PR fallout from all this will be.

#30 Kemmel

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:59

The WRC lost a lot of appeal with the only having 1 service park location.
A world rally should cover a large region of the country, and I dont understand the argument that it costs too much and its better for TV, the Dakar series Central European rally did not have 1 service park location and they still have TV coverage every night and several manufactures.

#31 Mika Mika

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 11:09

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Audi does, they aren't in F1 and sportscars aren't very big in Germany so they need a domestic racing presense. Merc is probably there partly because they are only an engine supplier in F1 and this way they get to win in DTM.


Do you really think DTM affects Audi's sales then? I'm not so sure, I think they have their own marque irrespective of the DTM racing series.

I can understand them not really being too willing to enter F1, costs etc, It's a shame though. With their history, i used to wander if they would ever think of entering an A3 quattro into WRC.... Prob not i guess..



#32 jcbc3

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 11:59

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinge.


I'm pretty certain you would be too, if you knew you had the faster and better car/driver all through the event but, through this rule, was potentially relegated to third or fourth in the final result.

That said, I can fully understand Ford's position and don't doubt that Citroen would have done the same. Again it's a question of making the rules right. Which FIA seems singularly incapable of, no matter what series they are dealing with.

#33 JonC

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 13:11

Originally posted by jcbc3
That said, I can fully understand Ford's position and don't doubt that Citroen would have done the same.


Loeb's been first or second at the end of the first day on virtually every event this season and hasn't felt the need to resort to road-position tactics....maybe because he's just a damned good driver unlike hopeless Hirvonen who needs all four Fords to play the game to give him a chance.

#34 united

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 16:00

Citroen is promoting C5 as a German car from France, so DTM is a possibility. I do not know why Theissen stays in WTCC as BMW fighting with SEAT, Ex-Daewoo Chevrolet and VAZ is insulting.

WRC in terms of TV coverage is a complete joke. But judging by recent letters about the state of Loeb's beard people in charge of the sporting side from FIA are in a complete and acute delirium.

#35 ezequiel

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 16:53

Originally posted by Imperial
You know what? Citroen are absolutely right. The WRC absolutely stinks in terms of promotion. What promotion???? Exactly...

In reality the only time anyone ever hears of the WRC is when the latest (in a long line) British TV company to broadcast it harps on about how their package will be superior to the last broadcaster's and how WRC is gonna be put back on the map, blah blah.

It never happens of course and nothing ever changes. 'Dave' doesn't seem to push it as much recently as when they first took it on.

One of the other problems is that there is simply no challenge in the WRC. It's basically Loeb, a few blokes you may have heard about and a lot you probably have never heard of.

Citroen are never going to admit to that though. Obviously it doesn't look good to be promoting the latest Citroen models with the tagline "We won the WRC again - the competition was shit!"

At least in the DTM they'll be challenged. If Citroen do that I do however think the WRC will be in it's worst position ever. If the mighty Citroen don't want to be involved then who will?

The only manufacturer in recent times I have heard may have made a comeback was Hyundai, but that was some time ago and it's been mighty quiet for some time.

You don't need to examine the TV figures either. Everyone I know who used to watch WRC, including me, no longer watches it, mostly because there's little point.

Such a waste of what used to be a really fine series. It barely deserves to have the word "World" in it's title, cos it certainly ain't world-class anymore.


WRC is planning to make huge changes in the near future (there are talks about Super 2000 "Plus" spec cars, which will be clearly less expensive, and will easily allow manufacturers like Skoda, Hyundai or Peugeot who have developed/are gonig to develop S2000 cars to participate, besides Subaru, Suzuki and Ford)

#36 ezequiel

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 17:01

Originally posted by JonC


Loeb's been first or second at the end of the first day on virtually every event this season and hasn't felt the need to resort to road-position tactics....maybe because he's just a damned good driver unlike hopeless Hirvonen who needs all four Fords to play the game to give him a chance.


Ford is undoubtly less reliable, and even thou Loeb has still commited some important driving mistakes. The difference is not as big as some people would like to think. The current sation of WRC reminds me somewhat of what Motogp was a couple of seasons ago: Valentino+the rest. But then kids like Pedrosa, Stoner and Lorenzo appeared, and the level among manufacturers is more competitve. If Subaru returns to form with the new car I don't see why Petter Solberg couldn't put a lot of pressure on Loeb (he beated the French to the title in 2003), or Chris Atkinson, who has been frequently faster that Petter this season. Latvala is still improving, and Hirvonen, despite the less reliability his Focus has had compared to the Citröens, is up there fighting back to back with Seb. What bWRC needds are more factory teams so drivers like Markko Martin (an enormous talent), Gigi Galli; or young guys who are tremendously fast like Kosti Katajamaki may have a real chance to show themselves.

#37 Matheson

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 17:37

I would say Citroen's best move would be to WTCC; but would I would also like to see that series revert to being the ETCC.
I think Citroen - and less so BMW - would take too long to reach Merc & Audi performance, even allowing for restrictors/weight penalties/whatever.

In the last few years my interest in WRC has reached zero; everything about it just seems...uninteresting. The best place for WRCars is on a rallycross circuit :)

#38 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 10:31

I continue to follow WRC very closely and I cheer fro Ford. In my opinion, the Focus is the best car in the business, but since Loeb is a better driver than Hirvonen and (previously) Gronholm, he keeps on winning. He'll win this year as well (hate to say that), as there will be 3 tarmac rallies in the second half of the season, where the Finns will not be on a par with the Frenchman. ezequiel, you are wrong when you say that the Focus is less reliable than the C4, Dani Sordo has experienced a couple of engine failures this season, while tire problems have been Latvala's biggest problems so far, which are due to bad luck/driver's errors.

Overall, WRC still revs me up, it's a unique and exciting championship, but after Peugeot pulled the plug on their WRC program, the show lost a lot, also because of Subaru's inability to produce a competitive car in recent years.

But I hope that the manufacturers will come back and we'll be able to re-live the great moments from the beginning of the 21st century. But for that to happen, channels should start broadcasting rallies not in the middle of the night, but at least at 22:00 local time. There many better things to do at night than sitting in front of a screen waiting for the WRC broadcast, which is delayed by 2 hours because of a live snooker show.

If Suzuki (who joined the fray at the beginning of the year) and Subaru produce competitive cars we might witness classic battles again, as I'm sure Peter Solberg, Chris Attkinson and Toni Gardameister can and will deliver.

#39 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 12:35

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
Would make a good fit for their unmistakeably German advertising campaign, if it's still running in 2010.


My first thought :up:

Great adverts and surprisingly I like the car too (maybe i get carried away by flight of the valkyries)