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Sponsorship/financial backing woes in F1?


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#1 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 18:53

As the situation with Super Aguri and Honda unfolds, I find myself wondering what's going on. Isn't the barrier to entry to F1 basically so high that no one has bothered to even try to create a new F1 team from scratch in ages?

Assuming so, isn't it true that the most efficient way to get into F1 is to buy/partner with an existing team (a la Force India)?

Also, isn't it true that there are at least a few well-heeled entities that covet association/partnership/ownership of an F1 entry?

Given these facts, what's going on? Global recession? Suzuki not offering enough control in exchange for cubic dollars requested? Poor planning?

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#2 pUs

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 19:25

Super Aguri seems to have been too Honda-dependent from the beginning, for good and worse. I don't know, but at least in my eyes they never really seemed indepedent in any way.

Having said that, what they did with what was originally an Arrows 2002 chassis impressed. A shame we might never get to see what they would come up with on their own.

#3 David M. Kane

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 19:26

Poor planning AND poor reorganization, when Honda bought BAR they were a mess. I haven't seen much progress since the take over. Having said that I wonder how different things would be if Ross Brawn had been there from day one. They've always lacked leadership. I don't know Nick Fry, he may be a very nice guy; however he's an empty suit. Sorry Nick!

#4 undersquare

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 19:42

I get the impression it's...

(a) No customer teams, it's too expensive to start a constructor team, the current rules mean years and billions to become competitive.

(b) There's no Concorde Agreement, Bernie is getting old, there is a lot of uncertainty (except that FoM and CVC take most of the money out of F1).

© The President of the FIA has been revealed as a pervert and won't resign. There seems to be no mechanism to get rid of him.

#5 pingu666

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 20:06

I think theres less sponsors about, super aguri, honda, torro rosso and red bull seem really skinny on sponsorship :|

#6 WACKO

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 20:41

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
As the situation with Super Aguri and Honda unfolds, I find myself wondering what's going on. Isn't the barrier to entry to F1 basically so high that no one has bothered to even try to create a new F1 team from scratch in ages?

Assuming so, isn't it true that the most efficient way to get into F1 is to buy/partner with an existing team (a la Force India)?

Also, isn't it true that there are at least a few well-heeled entities that covet association/partnership/ownership of an F1 entry?

Given these facts, what's going on? Global recession? Suzuki not offering enough control in exchange for cubic dollars requested? Poor planning?


F1 is heading for full constructorship again, which means that teams will no longer be allowed to borrow other team's cars or share parts. This would mean that the whole of both the Leafield Aguri factory and the Faenza Toro Rosso base have to be reorganized to actually build and develop a car there. That's quite a different demand in terms of personnel cost, technology cost etc than just racing a car that has been acquired.

Both need a lot of investment, but no such certainties with regard to rewards, since nothing has been decided on the incentive system for a new Concorde Agreement. Investors tend to be quite reluctant in such situations, regardless the economic development, which is also not very stable at the moment.

#7 Imperial

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 21:49

Originally posted by David M. Kane
Poor planning AND poor reorganization, when Honda bought BAR they were a mess. I haven't seen much progress since the take over.


Part of me thinks that Honda may as well have spent the extra money needed to start a team from scratch, as after all they must have spent more than that already in their pursuit of below-averageness.

But the other part of me thinks hang-on...Toyota did that and they've been even ****ing worse than Honda down the years.

All Honda did was take the cheapest way to mediocrity.

**** me, actually that would be a good thing to take to the board and Mr Honda, when they ask again why they're are wasting money on this F1 Thing and wishing Ayrton was still here to maybe be their team principal instead of this guy who's previous claim to fame was being sent before Ann Robinson like the proverbial lamb to the slaughter (Funnily enough she coined the phrase "You are the weakest link!". Hmm...) Anyway, yes, imagine justifying this big waste of time to the top brass: "Well Mr Honda, at least we didn't incur Toyota's start-up costs. We took the cheapest way to mediocrity".

Those teams really are a disgrace to the motor industry.

#8 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 21:57

Cliffs Notes: Barriers to entry.

#9 primer

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 22:00

Costs.

#10 Dudley

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 22:08

Originally posted by pingu666
I think theres less sponsors about, super aguri, honda, torro rosso and red bull seem really skinny on sponsorship :|


The latter 2 have full sponsorship (for now in STR's case). Red Bull actively refuse sponsorship requests.

But yes, the simple answer is barriers to entry.

Look at Toyota's struggles and that's the single biggest car company in the world. The chance of seeing another Jordan or even Sauber is zero, so only a big car company has any chance of starting a team and we already have them all except VW and Ford.

The grid will be 16 tops soon enough unless you allow customer cars. STR will go at the end of 09. Aguri are probably gone, Force India had the huge advantage of having a structure already but it'll only take one accident to befall the owner and they're likely gone.

And how long for Williams when Frank is gone and Patrick retires?

Costs.


Well not quite. The ongoing costs might just be manageable. The problem is that if they become unmanageable for any individual team (as happened to a few in 70s,80s and 90s too) there's now no-one left to replace them.

#11 Jackman

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 22:40

Originally posted by Dudley
The latter 2 have full sponsorship (for now in STR's case). Red Bull actively refuse sponsorship requests.

If that were true, then why did Gerhard hire Williams' head of sponsorship acquisition almost as soon as he 'bought' the team?

#12 Dudley

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Posted 05 May 2008 - 23:10

Yes, they've failed at STR but for now they have the money they need (which to be fair, is bugger all)

I should say, when I said "Red Bull refuse sponsorship" I meant for the "works" team.

#13 pingu666

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 17:52

arent TR officaly sponsered by a airfield?

#14 potmotr

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 19:20

Originally posted by pingu666
arent TR officaly sponsered by a airfield?


It's Dietrich Mateschitz's private hanger isn't it?

#15 Nathan

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Posted 06 May 2008 - 23:45

Originally posted by pingu666
I think theres less sponsors about, super aguri, honda, torro rosso and red bull seem really skinny on sponsorship :|

What happened to Taku's popularity in Japan?

#16 Andrew Ford &F1

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 19:34

Yes, that's really strange. There was a demonstration in front of the Honda headquarters after it had been announced that SA would no longer participate in F1. How could the Japanese let the team die, with Sato at the wheel of one of the cars, the outfit is said to have been very popular in the Land of the Rising Sun. How come no investors were found is beyond me.

#17 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 20:43

Originally posted by Andrew, Ford &F1
Yes, that's really strange. There was a demonstration in front of the Honda headquarters after it had been announced that SA would no longer participate in F1. How could the Japanese let the team die, with Sato at the wheel of one of the cars, the outfit is said to have been very popular in the Land of the Rising Sun. How come no investors were found is beyond me.


Probably cos this isn't the 1980s when Japan's economy was booming so hard that people thought Japan was going to take over the world.

As a "wild tangent," can anyone say "real estate bubble?"

#18 dawg_7529

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 20:51

Hold on a minute. I was under the impression Honda had set up a second team, then put a puppet as head i.e. aguri, and now the fia cancels its customer car rule, honda wants to get rid of them.

#19 Lord Snooty

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 21:10

I wonder if the dearth of sponsors or their lack of enthusiasm is partially influenced by Max's antics...

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#20 BlackCat

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 21:49

its what happens when you bite the hand that has feed you nearly 40 years :smoking:

#21 pingu666

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 22:11

in a couple of statements its been said that max didnt help, customer car issue, and spankgate etc :

current shitting of the bed economy wise cant help either. ofcourse you could wonder how much help the honda side did to get sponsers :

#22 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 07 May 2008 - 22:30

So how does the decision making process for sponsors work?

Hey, let's advertise, how is our money best spent? 2 years ago it would've been F1 but today it's something else?

Or is it, here's out advertising budget, and it's much less than it was 2 years ago?

I think it's global recession as much as anything else--other formulae are having difficulty finding sponsorship. Max's predilections certainly don't help, but it doesn't change the fact that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport.