108 replies to this topic

[bradbury west]

This was on display in the paddock at VSCC Wiscombe today





Photos copyright Roger Lund

[bradbury west]

No comments? -, in view of the car's seemingly chequered, or otherwise, past
RL

[Alan Cox]

It was discussed on here some short time back, Roger, when it was offered for sale by auction.

http://forums.autosp...519#post2401519

[bradbury west]

Alan, many thanks. I must have missed it and not caught up on my return, or forgotten the thread . Cockpit photos available if anyone is interested.
RL

[David McKinney]

So, are we looking at a rebuild of the factory single-seater Aston Martin raced by Reg Parnell in New Zealand in 1956, or some HWM hybrid which happens to have the nose of that car?
My understanding was that the single-seater Aston Martin was turned into a DB3S sportscar after Geoff Richardson had finished with it.

[Dutchy]

I recall at least seeing a blue DB3S at Castle Coombe in 1974 driven by Bob Owen which was claimed to be the rebodied RRA

[D-Type]

It would be interesting to see the car with bodywork removed - even an under-bonnet shot would be useful.

[bradbury west]

Just to keep this forward. I suspect that Sharman will have a view on the Bob Owens DB3S and its demise.
Roger Lund.

[Gregor Marshall]

Roger - I'd love to see some photos of the cockpit if you can post them??

[bradbury west]

All photos copyright Roger Lund.


front

n/side rear, viewed from above, spring at 45deg appr.

A picture of Parnell in period, Autosport, indicates he sat atop the drive line, and the rear body had a raised downcurving ridge in the centre of the panel.
Roger Lund

[Gregor Marshall]

Thanks Roger - I love the "relative" simplicity of the cockpit

[Sharman]

Roger
I have been trying to contact Bob but I have a terrible feeling I am just too late, will keep trying as he probably has/had a host of photos stashed away. He was in business with (among other enterprises) Ken Yeates in a company specialising in Sports Racing Cars of a certain age, so there was probably more than one DB3S.
John

[Sharman]

I am happy to say that my "terrible" feeling was unfounded. I have just spoken to Bob and he is well and although no longer involved in racing still maintains an interest. As I suspected he did have more than one DB3S, that which David Eva crashed was DB3S 10 registered 210MRA, he also had the first production 3S chassis 101. 210MRA was rechassisied by Bob following the Silverstone crash so there is obviously no connection wth DP155.

[Dutchy]

I knew he had DB3S/10. That was sometime before his ownership of the car under discussion which was well into his Maserati period.

[bradbury west]

I have looked through the Hamlyn book of complete Autocar articles on Aston Martin, and it seems that all, probably, of the post war cars up the the time of the Parnell car had trailing arm front suspension. Jumping to conclusions it would seem likely that a one-off would probably have used readily available parts and systems, especially if the car was adapted from a DB3S chassis, and it would seem unlikely that Parnell would want to throw lots of money at such a car - they did not have revised suspesion I believe unti '57, post the Parnell car period. The car in my photographs clearly has some form of wishbone, at the front, and the kingposts do not look like those in the book. I remain confused by the car.
Roger Lund

[Allan Lupton]

Well yes neither suspension is Aston Martin of the alleged period, both ends of which were torsion bars and trailing links, the back end being de Dion with i/b brakes.
It doesn't look much like HWM suspension either, but I have only the photos in Doug Nye's "Powered by Jaguar" as reference for the moment, so can't be quite sure.
That forged front wishbone looks as if it came from a less specialist car, but I can't say what.
The gearbox looks more like one off a Jaguar than an Aston.

[Gregor Marshall]

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
The gearbox looks more like one off a Jaguar than an Aston.

Could the gearbox be a Maserati one like on the DBR4?

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by Gregor Marshall


Could the gearbox be a Maserati one like on the DBR4?

That one is a transaxle job, so quite different.

[Gregor Marshall]

I don't know if the below helps but I dug out some information at the weekend from an old AMOC register (the photos really interested me!!) from 1992. I have some newer ones somewhere, will see if I can find them and add any further information but looks like the suspension query might be answered.

"DP 155 - First post-war Grand Prix car. Single seat body on DB3S chassis. Intended to have a 2493cc engine (DP155/1), but fitted with a 3-litre. See Specials (131-DB135) for more info.


Results -

1956 Ardmore 200 GP (Parnell - practised only)
Lady Wigram Trophy (Parnell - 4th)
Dunedin 75 Miles (Parnell - 2nd)
Southern Centennial Invercargill (Parnell - 3rd)

131-DB135 UUY 504
Built be Geoffrey Richardson as RRA Special, with chassis from DB3S single-seater (see DP 155), modified body from DB3S/105 and 3.4 Jaguar engine, disc brakes and coil springs. Raced in Club events in 1962 and at Curborough 1972.
1973 rebuilt by Ricky Bell with twin-plug Aston Martin engine and body restored to DB3S shape."

[Sharman]

So can we rule out any connetions between DB3S/10 and DB3S/101 which Dutchy seems to be bent on establishing as Bob assures me that those were the only two DB3Ss he had, nether of which were blue?
To go off thread, how many RRAs were there? I remember the ERA engined version but whar else.

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Sharman
To go off thread, how many RRAs were there? I remember the ERA engined version but whar else.

The question has been discussed before, eg:
http://forums.autosp...3&highlight=rra

[Gregor Marshall]

I found the 2002 AMOC Register last night (along with others) and the chassis number information is the same for both cars but there is a paragraph on the beginnings of DP155 which I found interesting:-

"Development of the sports cars had absorbed all the resources of the small competition department, delaying the realisation of David Brown's wish to compete in Grand Prix racing. Following the annoncement that Formula 1 would be for 2.5 litre cars (unsupercharged) from 1954, work on another 2.5 litre car was started in the autumn of 1953. This car, DP155, was to have a 2493cc (83 by 76.8mm) experimental prototype Grand Prix version of the DB3S engine (DP155/1, as used in DB3S/5 at Oulton Park in 1955 and 1956) in a DB3s chassis with a single-seat body. However by the time this car was completed in 1955 it was fitted with a 3 litre engine and was raced only in New Zealand."

[D-Type]

I think it is fairly unlikely that this car is DP 155. The story doesn't tie up. The records say that it became the RRA and was then converted into a close approximation to a DB3S sports car. I consider it highly unlikely that anyone would then attempt to convert it back to the Aston Martin single seater as that is not a sufficiently significant car to justify the effort and expenditure. If someone had done so, surely it would have at least born a passing resemblence to the 1955 New Zealand car with a high central seat on top of the transmission.

There seems very little enthusiasm for the idea that it might be a 1949 HW-Alta or 1950 HWM offset chassis with an Aston Martin engine or a Jaguar engine for thet matter.

So, what is it?

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Sharman
So can we rule out any connetions between DB3S/10 and DB3S/101 which Dutchy seems to be bent on establishing as Bob assures me that those were the only two DB3Ss he had, nether of which were blue?
To go off thread, how many RRAs were there? I remember the ERA engined version but whar else.

I wasn't trying to do that at all.
DB3Ss 10 and 101 are cars with known histories.

I was at that AMOC meeting at Castle Coombe in 1974 and remember the car. If Bob Owen says it wasn't his then I'm not in any position to argue otherwise but I distinctly recall the commentator saying the metallic blue DB3S lookalike was the former RRA Special

[Sharman]

Dutchy
I'll write to Bob and see if he can throw any light on that. he seems to have everything he has done filed so perhaps he can pinpoint which car it was at Wiscombe and who it belonged to
John

[Allan Lupton]

Originally posted by D-Type

There seems very little enthusiasm for the idea that it might be a 1949 HW-Alta or 1950 HWM offset chassis with an Aston Martin engine or a Jaguar engine for thet matter.

Presumably an Aston engine, as the exhaust is on the o/s
The only photo of the HWM front suspension I can find has a different style of forged upper wishbone

and I can't find an equivalent HW-Alta photo

[Dutchy]

As far as I could tell it was an Aston engine with, as you say, the exhaust on the o/s. It was a cooking one too with just 2 SUs rather than the triple Webers you would find on a proper racing Aston engine.

Incidentally the 2.5 litre GP engine fitted to the DBR4 had the exhaust on the n/s - obviously totally irrelevant in this instance!

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by Dutchy
Incidentally the 2.5 litre GP engine fitted to the DBR4 had the exhaust on the n/s

Yes and no - n/s one year, o/s the other (can't now remember which way around)

[Dutchy]

In which case it was n/s for 1959 (DBR4) and o/s for 1960 (DBR5)

[Simon Taylor]

A couple of TNFers have suggested I comment on this thread - apologies for taking so long to do so! Here are my thoughts, for what they may or may not be worth:

Number one: this car is not an HWM, and has nothing to do with any HWM as far as I am aware. There were mutters about it having some HWM ancestry when it came up at the Goodwood Bonhams auction, and various HWM people looked at it and recognised no part of the chassis.

Number two: It does use the Aston Martin Tasman single-seater body. The recently sadly departed Geoff Richardson, of RRA fame, bought the single-seater Aston in the late 1950s, and because he thought the Aston engine was under-powered he replaced it with a 2.4-litre Jaguar engine (wanting to remain within the 2500cc F1 capacity limit). Autosport published a picture of him racing the car in this form at Snetterton, by which time he was calling the car an RRA. He subsequently converted it into a two-seater, I believe with a somewhat DB3S-like body. In order to make somebody lots of money, it may more recently have metamorphosed into something approximating to a proper DB3S - I am sure an Aston expert (which I am certainly not) can tell us.

Number three: Having converted the Tasman Aston to a Jaguar-powered two-seater, Geoff sold the single-seater body, and I believe this body found its way to Ireland. Maybe Geoff sold the Aston engine with the body, in which case that may be the source of the engine in this car: an engine number check may help here, because I believe the number of the Tasman single-seater's engine was noted in Aston factory records.

Number four: the apochryphal HWM connection with this car may have come about because there was a 1950 HWM which disappeared into Ireland. In 1950 HWM built four offset cockpit F2 cars: the three works cars (of which my Stovebolt Special is one, Terry Grainger's ex-Oscar Moore Jaguar-engined car is another, and the third was rebuilt into correct Alta-engined form and is now with a collector in Gloucestershire). The fourth car was a customer car built for Alistair Baring. It was sold at the end of 1950 to John Brown in Scotland, and ended up with Ray Fielding at his garage in Forres. Ray subsequently removed the body and put it on a Jaguar-powered Alta, the car later registered ND 4040 when it belonged to Nestor Douglas.

The ex-Baring, ex-Brown 1950 HWM was rebodied by Feilding with a Rochdale fibreglass shell - the one with the same shape as the Connaught sports-racers of the day - and, still with its 2-litre Alta engine, later found its way to Ireland. The car was raced in this form in Ireland but has since disappeared. An Irish historian who I believe posts on here from time to time very kindly sent me a picture of the car at a Northern Ireland airfield circuit in the early 1960s.

It may be that this fourth 1950 HWM was crashed or dismantled or chopped up, because I have not been able to find any trace of it since those early 1960s club races. But maybe - just maybe - the owner replaced it with a new special, with a chassis built in Ireland, and used the ex-Richardson Aston Martin body and maybe also an ex-Richardson Aston engine. The HWM chassis would have had transverse leaf suspension front and rear. I have looked at this Aston-bodied car and the chassis is absolutely not like that.

Having gone on at length and sent you all to sleep, can any Irish historians throw any more light on what really did happen to that Rochdale-bodied, Alta-engined 1950 HWM? It would be great to know if its remains are in a cowshed somewhere.....If you have any clues, or ever saw this car racing in Ireland about 45 years ago, please get in touch.

[Catalina Park]

Tasman?

[Ray Bell]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
Tasman?

One day they'll understand...

I wonder if we'll live to see it?

[Catalina Park]

How can you trust any historians accuracy if they lump any race in the Southern Hemisphere under the name Tasman.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
How can you trust any historians accuracy if they lump any race in the Southern Hemisphere under the name Tasman.

Except South African and South American racing.

The trouble is that 'Tasman' is such a convenient shorthand for the generic Australia - New Zealand racing scene. It was even used journalistically before the advent of the Tasman Championship. What could you use instead? 'Australia / New Zealand' is horribly long winded; 'antipodean' is a very British usage and isn't accurate anyway as it's only approximately true for NZ and Iberia or Australia and west or north west Africa; as I pointed out above 'Southern Hemisphere' also includes southern Africa and South America; and the geographic description 'Three largest islands in Oceania', or if Oceania includes Papua New Guinea is then 'Three largest Islands in Oceania, excluding Papua New Guinea' is impractical.

OK, so Wellington is about as far from Melbourne as London is from Istanbul and Australia and New Zealand are as different froom each other as Britain and Turkey even if they do speak similar English dialects.

So what would you like us to use?

[Ray Bell]

To answer that, we'd have to know which car you're talking about...

I'm assuming it's the Lex Davison car, which raced in Australia (almost exclusively). So why not refer to it as
'the Davison car'? Which had a 3-litre engine, I seem to recall.

If it's an Australian matter, refer to it as such. If it's a New Zealand matter, then 'Kiwi' would probably do. For the most part, Australian and New Zealand racing were just as far apart as Australian and South African racing... and New Zealand and English racing. The only thing that was 'Tasman' was the International series that loosely began in 1961 and was formalised in 1964.

[Dutchy]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
To answer that, we'd have to know which car you're talking about...

I'm assuming it's the Lex Davison car, which raced in Australia (almost exclusively). So why not refer to it as
'the Davison car'? Which had a 3-litre engine, I seem to recall.

If it's an Australian matter, refer to it as such. If it's a New Zealand matter, then 'Kiwi' would probably do. For the most part, Australian and New Zealand racing were just as far apart as Australian and South African racing... and New Zealand and English racing. The only thing that was 'Tasman' was the International series that loosely began in 1961 and was formalised in 1964.

The Lex Davison car you refer to was a 1959 DBR4 GP car - clearly NOT what we are discussing on this thread

[Allan Lupton]

There seems to be no clear information about what that car is, even though we now have a lot about what it is not.
The notice on the car (in the photo above) claims an origin in the car used by Reg Parnell in the (if I may use the term) Tasman races. The same notice, so far as I can read it at that resolution, seems to elaborate on the history of DP155 as it must have been, rather than the car that is there now with that "number".
It has changed a bit in the last two years, as the 2006 photo shows, gaining wire wheels, a different exhaust system and some bodywork tidying at least. If that body really was once the Parnell car, it must have been greatly changed to become the offset-seat low-line shape it is, rather than the high centre-seat job it once was.
It should be possible for someone to identify that front upper wishbone and the quite distinctive rear suspension, but I doubt if they would prove to be from the same make/model of car, let alone from any make that has been referred to in this thread.

[Simon Taylor]

Sackcloth, ashes and apologies. I will never use the term Tasman again, even when I am cast adrift in the Tasman Sea by an antipodean enemy. Bother, mustn't say antipodean, either.

Ray, the car that Reg Parnell took the the 1956 New Zealand Grand Prix of course had absolutely nothing whatever to do with Lex Davison's DBR4. We are talking about DP155, the experimental factory single-seater which used a narrowed/adapted DB3S chassis and came long before any of the DBR4s. Chassis number was DP155/1 and the engine was 83mm x 76.8mm, 2493cc.

Parnell blew the engine during the second day's practice at Ardmore and failed to start. (He took over Peter Whitehead's Cooper-Jaguar in the race and finished fifth.) Another engine was found for the Wigram Trophy at Christchurch, and Parnell finished fourth a long way behind the Ferraris of Whitehead and Gaze and Leslie Marr's Jaguar-engined aerodynamic Connaught. A week later Parnell managed second place to Gaze round the houses at Dunedin. I haven't been able to trace any further activity, and gather the car came home and sat unloved in a corner at Feltham until Geoff Richardson bought it.

The body was obviously much altered before it was fitted to this mystery chassis, but from the few pictures published of it, in Parnell's hands in New Zealand and in Richardson's hands as the RRA, the nose at least is identical.

But, as Allan says, we are no nearer knowing what the chassis actually is. The body sits much lower, because DP155 had the driver sitting atop the propshaft and this is offset. Where are the Irish experts to help us?

[David McKinney]

Originally posted by D-Type

The trouble is that 'Tasman' is such a convenient shorthand for the generic Australia - New Zealand racing scene. It was even used journalistically before the advent of the Tasman Championship

I've heard this said before, but have yet to find any example. Can you give an example, D?

What could you use instead?

Nothing wrong with 'Australasia'

In fact the question is totally irrelevant to the car in question, which was built for a series of races in New Zealand

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by D-Type
Except South African and South American racing.

The trouble is that 'Tasman' is such a convenient shorthand for the generic Australia - New Zealand racing scene. It was even used journalistically before the advent of the Tasman Championship. What could you use instead? 'Australia / New Zealand' is horribly long winded; 'antipodean' is a very British usage and isn't accurate anyway as it's only approximately true for NZ and Iberia or Australia and west or north west Africa; as I pointed out above 'Southern Hemisphere' also includes southern Africa and South America; and the geographic description 'Three largest islands in Oceania', or if Oceania includes Papua New Guinea is then 'Three largest Islands in Oceania, excluding Papua New Guinea' is impractical.

OK, so Wellington is about as far from Melbourne as London is from Istanbul and Australia and New Zealand are as different froom each other as Britain and Turkey even if they do speak similar English dialects.

So what would you like us to use?

I have seen the Tasman name used to describe cars that raced in South Africa and not in Australia and New Zealand. I don't know how this can be explained but quite clearly the word Tasman is way over used (mainly by poms) Sometime is is just misuse but other times it is in a deliberate attempt to fabricate a false car history.

I would like to see some evidence of the Tasman name being used to describe down under races before the Tasman Cup started.

Next we will be seeing some Tasman 250Fs.

[Doug Nye]

May I just offer a provenance thread which is substantially backed-up by contemporary first-hand recollection and paperwork? It's for a car claiming the 'DP155' history which is currently in American ownership. I'm not yet totally convinced of what follows, but it might throw a little more light under this potential flat stone... (DSJ afficionados - you hear what I'm saying, right??? ).

PROVENANCE: The original DP155 - conceived in 1953 - the 2 1/2-litre single-seat Formule Libre special constructed for team driver Reg Parnell's eventual use in New Zealand, Jan/Feb 1956. Works mechanics John King and Richard Green were amongst those who built it.

Sold after brief use by Parnell to Geoff Richardson - equipped with Jaguar engine to form a new RRA ('Richardson Racing Automobile') -

In 1957 bought from Richardson by David Gossage on the condition that Geoff Richardson converted it into a sports car. Geoff fitted the body from DB3S chassis '105' then owned by Lord O'Neill. He also modified the front end of the body and restyled it with a simple oval radiator air intake. The car was then road registered 'UUY 504' -

David Gossage later sold the car to Greville Edwards who crashed it -

Geoff Richardson bought the damaged car back - He repaired it by building a replacement chassis (this is of course a significant point) using "main tubes supplied by Aston Martin" - Richard Green stated in October 1999 that during this work Richardson also installed a Salisbury 4HU diff and converted the rear suspension to coil-springs (car Jaguar powered) -

A hiatus then ensues in this provenance until 1973 when "the car" was acquired by Richard Bell who restored the front end to original shape and built-up a twin-plug-headed Aston Martin DB3S engine for the car -

Then after another hiatus - 1986 to Claus Oechsiln (? spelling?) of Geneva -

October 1986 to Erich Traber (Swiss dealer) -

June 1987 sold to Nicolas Springer - work carried out by Roos Engineering of Berne, Switzerland, modifying the bodywork to 1955 team car configuration, painted midnight blue -

1996 for sale by a London company with a four-letter word for a name, which subsequently went into liquidation, then started up again almost immediately under a fresh name, but with the same principals (and apparently principles) leaving a number of former clients unpaid -

Car then seems to have gone into American ownership (reputedly in Georgia) - subsequently acquired in the USA by Jimmy Dobbs of Memphis, Tennesee, and still - I understand - retained by him, 2008.

Can anyone plug the holes in this provenance, for what I would assume is a strong rival claimant for the 'UUY 504' 'identity' attributed to the UK-owned subject of this thread, and of course to its works New Zealand-raced predecessor?

DCN

[Doug Nye]

Originally posted by Catalina Park
How can you trust any historians accuracy if they lump any race in the Southern Hemisphere under the name Tasman.

While I sympathise with the simple pedantry and national pride expressed here, I cannot recall ever having seen 'Tasman' applied to Seth Efrikan racing. 'Springbok' for SA, 'Tasman' for Australasia is the way I was brought up in racing - 'Tasman' indicating Australia/New Zealand, 'Springbok' for the Union. What's so wrong with that? All you colonials, be told. It's the Empire speaking.

DCN Govrnr Gnrl (dismissed)

[Dutchy]

All I can add Doug is the car I referred to earlier owned by Bob Owen in 1974 is the same car as you are talking about.

Quite what the car at Wiscombe is I don't know. It had a cooking DB2 or 2/4 engine fitted.

[Catalina Park]

Originally posted by Doug Nye


While I sympathise with the simple pedantry and national pride expressed here, I cannot recall ever having seen 'Tasman' applied to Seth Efrikan racing. 'Springbok' for SA, 'Tasman' for Australasia is the way I was brought up in racing - 'Tasman' indicating Australia/New Zealand, 'Springbok' for the Union. What's so wrong with that? All you colonials, be told. It's the Empire speaking.

DCN Govrnr Gnrl (dismissed)

How does the Empire feel about races in Malaysia and Japan being described as Tasman races? (I have seen it done on this forum )

CP (not out).

[Dutchy]

Am I the only one who is getting more than a little bored of the diversion as to what constitutes a Tasman race or what doesn't?

I thought we were trying to establish the identity of an unknown Aston Martin.

[Derek Pitt]

To get really off-topic and totally boring......

The Governor General was not dismissed ....the democratically twice elected government was dismissed by the Governor General..the latter was hounded out of office eventually.


Just a lil pedanticity to go with the Tasman debate

[Damien Duigan]

G'day all,

The car was on offer in 1983 with Rod Leach's Nostalgia and then in 1996 with Talacrest, Coys and latterly Symbolic in San Diego.

Cheers,
Damien

[Sharman]

Which car are your referring to Damien the Special which is the subject of this thread or the Richardson car?

[Damien Duigan]

Sorry, should have made myself clear. The 'DP155' in Doug's post - by the time the various dealers (including the four-letter one) had it for sale, it was blue and looked like 3/S.

Jimmy Dobbs took the car to Laguna Seca in August 1999.

Cheers,
Damien

[Dutchy]

It was blue with a DB3S body on it when I saw it at Castle Coombe in 1973 too.

Edited by Dutchy, 28 February 2020 - 16:59.