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#1 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 07:29

is only strong at Bahrain Spain and Turkey (and those are already behind) so he is going to suffer a lot for the rest of the season.

This is the "en vogue" theory regarding Massa with the goal of showing he is not as strong as the other top drivers (which ones?).

let examine this theory.

Why do poeple think Massa is specially strong at those circuit?
- He won Bahrain and Spain last year. Nothing more for those circuits. But at that time that was explained by a lot by the fact that KR was not yet fully integrated (and blow his engine at Spain). In 2006 massa didn't do anything special at Barcelona and while he qualified very well at bahrain, he spun and finished 9th.
- Massa won in Turkey in 2006 but many said he only won because of the safety car, and last year, he was supposed to have only won due to an error of Kimi in qualy (since he was outqualified with less fuel and by the end of the race, kimi seems to be a lot faster than massa and his best lap was 0.6s faster than Massa's)

so before this year, nothing really could have indicated, according to the same poeple now saying that are his best tracks (now gone), that he has done anything special in those circuits. A driver can win, but there are always good explanations if you don't think he was the best.

Les examine Massa's record at other tracks now
- Monaco, Last year he qualified 3rd and finished 3rd, ahead of teammate, setting the three best laps of a ferrari that week end. The mac were unstoppable
- Canada: he was outqualified by kimi (with more fuel) but was running well in front when disqualified
- USA, he qualified in front of his teammate and finished in front
- France: he qualified in front, good race, lost in the last stop to kimi, but the duo was evenly matched.
- Nurburgring. He qualified second, and in the first lap, it was kimi who did the mistake on rain by missing the pit entry. massa was in front until kimi retired. Finished second
- England; started behind, overtook cars, and finished well in the points, nice race.
- Hungary. we all saw the qualy, but until his problem, he did'nt show any sign of being slow (or slower than Kimi)
- Spa: started second with more fuel than kimi (was faster if 1 lap = 0.1s there) and finished second
- monza: was in front of kimi when retired
- japan, set the pole there in 2006, let pass MS who was unable to pull away; last year (new track) after the safety car, he was 20s behind the pack under the rain, and overtook a lot of cars and overtook RK in a very nice way in the last lap. wasn't slower than team mate.
- china:
- brazil won in 2006 and was at least as faster last year than the winner
- Australia: difficult races but not due to lack of pace in both 2007 and 2008
- Sépang: His qualy lap was 0.4s faster than team mate: spun while second: once again nothing to do with his speed.

so in all these circuits Massa presents no sign of lack of pace compare to Bahrain, Turkey or Spain.

I would like someone who think that Massa is inconsistent in terms of speed to come here and explain me why.


The other theory is to think he is inconsistent in term of errors. I can also do the count for the top 4 runners of last year, or of this year. massa is not leading both these counts.

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#2 kar

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 07:52

I don't think he's inconsistent in terms of speed, he's quick everywhere, even Monaco last year, as you say, he did very well with a car that wasn't up to it to fight for the win.

When you think Massa's speed has been held up against (arguably) the ultimate benchmark (MS, albeit in his twilight years), and he at times was absolutely on the pace, and when he wasn't it wasn't by much, then you simply cannot question his raw speed.

Problem is what happens when things go wrong, or the going gets tough. Massa's aggression and bravery are largely the reasons for his speed, they are also the reasons for his mistakes, his little slipups that stop him from converting his speed into finishing positions. I don't blame him that much for Malaysia, but his gaff in Australia is an example where as Brundle puts it 'ambition gets ahead of adhesion'. Bahrain, 2006, another case in point. Massa sometimes forgets he's in the real world and his tyres have to obey physics, even his bravery and determination suggest otherwise. He may only make 2-3 bad mistakes a year, but in a title fight so closely fought that is the difference between winning a title and losing it.

To be honest, if Massa can put in a combative drive in Monaco, maybe he can settle down and pull off a Scheckter, a wild man come good.

I would like to see it, Kimi is my more preferred driver, but I would love to see Massa just take that one more step forward in terms of consistency and really fight for a title.

#3 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 08:13

unfortunately, it's not everyone who think like you.
have you seen the topic of monaco's predictions?

There are poster who put Kimi in P1 in qualy and massa not even inthe top 8 :stoned:

But where i don't agree with you is where you said that Massa do more big mistake than the other.
last year he hardly made any (maybe except sepang while overtaking Lewis and if you count a red light). he was the top scorer when you take the 3 rain races, LH, FA and KR all did decisive error in one of those races.
LH for example also made an error (or two?) in Brazil while attempting to overtake FA.
Kimi put it in the wall at monaco, FA went out in Japan and was more on grass than on track in Montreal.

This year kimi did two big mistakes, fortunately in the same race. he keep saying "I did mistakes in my qualy lap" mistakes that cost him points.
LH did two big mistakes in Bahrain (the start and aero planning behind Alonso)
massa also did two big mistakes (spinning in the first lap due to downgrading to first gear) and sepang. But massa's are the one that are always brought on the table.

I think Heikki has been the most competent driver in this aspect (one mistake in the last lap of Australia).

So it can happen that any driver makes a mistake, but some are more noticed than other.

#4 noikeee

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 08:47

Looking at last year I'd agree on the mistakes thing, this year he started the championship with 2 very costly mistakes in the first 2 races, so no wonder people reacted to it. But yeah, Kimi's hardly the no-mistakes-robot he's been hyped as compared to Massa.

In terms of *pace* I do think he's better at some tracks, I wouldn't include Spain in it, but he's definitely specially quick at Bahrain, and probably finds something extra at Interlagos and Istanbul as well. These are the only 3 tracks all year I'd assume him to be quicker than Kimi during the race, although his advantage in qualifying can give him wins at other places, and it's not impossible he'll surprise me and be quicker in other races, of course.

#5 Hippo

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 08:58

Originally posted by RichardVirenque
Les examine Massa's record at other tracks now.[/B]

- Monaco, Last year he qualified 3rd and finished 3rd, ahead of teammate
-> Kimi binned it in qualy, after that the race was wasted

- Canada: he was outqualified by kimi (with more fuel) but was running well in front when disqualified
-> totally stupid by Massa

- USA, he qualified in front of his teammate and finished in front
-> team order was not to risk anything

- France: he qualified in front, good race, lost in the last stop to kimi, but the duo was evenly matched.
-> Kimi was reasonably faster, not really a good job by Massa

- Nurburgring. He qualified second, and in the first lap, it was kimi who did the mistake on rain by missing the pit entry. massa was in front until kimi retired. Finished second
-> Kimi's mistake took him down to something like P13. He was back in P3 when he had to retire. I think Kimi would have won there.

- England; started behind, overtook cars, and finished well in the points, nice race.
-> Massa stalled his engine. Looking at Kimi the Ferrari was totally superior there, but Massa couldn't make a comeback like Kimi did in Germany.

- Hungary. we all saw the qualy, but until his problem, he did'nt show any sign of being slow (or slower than Kimi)
-> Massa and Ferrari binned it in Q2. Massas first try was too slow, Ferrari didn't expect that, then the made themselves look like idiots. There was not much for Massa to gain in the race. It's Hungary after all..

- Spa: started second with more fuel than kimi (was faster if 1 lap = 0.1s there) and finished second
-> Massa had a good qualifying run. But he was clearly slower in race. Kimi easily put seconds on the gap before the pitstops.

- monza: was in front of kimi when retired
-> Kimi was on a 1 stop strategy.

- japan [snip] wasn't slower than team mate.
-> he was 40s behind... Part of that due to the penalty, but that didn't cost him 40s. He was also slower.

- brazil won in 2006 and was at least as faster last year than the winner
-> err, don't understand. Brazil is one of Massas favourite tracks obviously. 07 was no real racing though.

- Sépang (08) : His qualy lap was 0.4s faster than team mate: spun while second: once again nothing to do with his speed.
-> Well, Kimi got him on first pitstops and easily pulled away. Massa was significantly slower until he lost his temper.


To be honest, i think Massa can be really really fast. But he doesn't show that everywhere. In fact he only shows it in Bahrain, Turkey and Brazil. In terms of mistakes he wasn't totally horrible in 07. His worst mistake was Canada. It cost him 8 points just like Malaysia 08.

#6 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 09:21

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hippo

- Monaco, Last year he qualified 3rd and finished 3rd, ahead of teammate
-> Kimi binned it in qualy, after that the race was wasted
[/QUOTE]
If kimi binned it in qualy, that doesn't mean Massa was slow there, I also said he did the best laps of a ferrari there.

[QUOTE]
- Canada: he was outqualified by kimi (with more fuel) but was running well in front when disqualified
-> totally stupid by Massa
[/QUOTE]
totally stupid, but where is the relation with his speed?
[QUOTE]
- USA, he qualified in front of his teammate and finished in front
-> team order was not to risk anything
[/QUOTE]
so he was in front because he has been faster before, be it in qualy.
[QUOTE]
- France: he qualified in front, good race, lost in the last stop to kimi, but the duo was evenly matched.
-> Kimi was reasonably faster, not really a good job by Massa
[/QUOTE]
Have you seen the race, he satyed in front after the first stop, and kimi emerged in front by less than a second after the second stop (I don't even talk about the backmaker there). Where come the "reasonnably faster"?
[QUOTE]
- Nurburgring. He qualified second, and in the first lap, it was kimi who did the mistake on rain by missing the pit entry. massa was in front until kimi retired. Finished second
-> Kimi's mistake took him down to something like P13. He was back in P3 when he had to retire. I think Kimi would have won there.
[/QUOTE]
would have won? hum, when he retired, he was behind Massa
[QUOTE]
- England; started behind, overtook cars, and finished well in the points, nice race.
-> Massa stalled his engine. Looking at Kimi the Ferrari was totally superior there, but Massa couldn't make a comeback like Kimi did in Germany.
[/QUOTE]
I don't think it is anything comparable, or if you want to compare, why not take Monaco, where kimi finished 8th?
[QUOTE]
- Hungary. we all saw the qualy, but until his problem, he did'nt show any sign of being slow (or slower than Kimi)
-> Massa and Ferrari binned it in Q2. Massas first try was too slow, Ferrari didn't expect that, then the made themselves look like idiots. There was not much for Massa to gain in the race. It's Hungary after all..
[/QUOTE]
again, was his pace in question? look his time in q1?
[QUOTE]
- Spa: started second with more fuel than kimi (was faster if 1 lap = 0.1s there) and finished second
-> Massa had a good qualifying run. But he was clearly slower in race. Kimi easily put seconds on the gap before the pitstops.
[/QUOTE]
there will be races where kimi beat him, and vice versa. that doesn't mean he is weak there, only kimi was faster ther, that's it. so doing the best job on saturday and the second best job on sunday, I don't call it weak
[QUOTE]
- monza: was in front of kimi when retired
-> Kimi was on a 1 stop strategy.
[/QUOTE]
but massa was in front. He was with the Mac and on the same strategy, both Mc finished in front of KR. I don't see any reason, massa would have been unable to do the same.
[QUOTE]
- japan [snip] wasn't slower than team mate.
-> he was 40s behind... Part of that due to the penalty, but that didn't cost him 40s. He was also slower.
[/QUOTE] he took 20s on kimi before the last pit stop of kimi and the last safety car (he was 40s behind, and by this time he was 20s behind). Go check
[QUOTE]
- brazil won in 2006 and was at least as faster last year than the winner
-> err, don't understand. Brazil is one of Massas favourite tracks obviously. 07 was no real racing though.
[/QUOTE]
Favourite why? only because he won there? anyway another track where he has been fast, which was the point I was making
[QUOTE]
- Sépang (08) : His qualy lap was 0.4s faster than team mate: spun while second: once again nothing to do with his speed.
-> Well, Kimi got him on first pitstops and easily pulled away. Massa was significantly slower until he lost his temper.
[/QUOTE]
Once again you forget the qualy. same analysis than spa

[QUOTE]
To be honest, i think Massa can be really really fast. But he doesn't show that everywhere. In fact he only shows it in Bahrain, Turkey and Brazil. In terms of mistakes he wasn't totally horrible in 07. His worst mistake was Canada. It cost him 8 points just like Malaysia 08.
[/QUOTE]
Me I think he did show that he can drive reasonnably fast everywhere, enough to not be called inconsistent in term of pace.

If you think so about Massa, what about kimi in Bahrain and Turkey? he was having setup issues, right?
Or Alonso in the last races last year, Or MS in japan 2003 or....

#7 Spunout

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 09:52

While I appreciate the fact that somebody speaks up for Massa (still underrated), I have to say RichardVirenque´s "analysis" is textbook example of selective logic.

:drunk:

#8 Hippo

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 09:58

Erm, excuse me, i was just pointing out, that Massa was not equally fast over the entire championship. You were saying, that Massa was consistantly fast, but he wasn't. Except for Bahrain and Turkey he was rather mediocre. He didn't mark any other exceptional performance.

By the way, you claim Massa having had good races in France or Malaysia (08), where he still got passed during pitstops. You think he was fast? But where did he pass Kimi in the pits? He never showed a race pace that was good enough to overtake his teammate...

By the way, i'm not a Ferrari-supporter, nor a Kimi-supporter. I'm just reflecting what i have seen. I'm supporting the midfield teams preferrably.

#9 kar

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:04

He didn't mark any other exceptional performance.


His Silverstone performance, although not rewarded with the points it deserved, was his drive of the year, an outstanding, and exceptional performance no matter what adjective you otherwise want to give it.

And in Brazil, I genuinely believe had there not been a title on the line he'd have not been seen all weekend by Raikkonen.

I don't think I would go quite as far to glorify his performance over the whole season, or thus far in 08 as somehow outstanding, but at the same time I do think he's often underrated.

Silverstone 07, especially, is a drive that doesn't get the respect it deserves. Hockenheim 06 I would put in the same drawer too. He is bloody good around there as I think we'll find out this year.

#10 Hacklerf

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:07

No one says Massa is a bad driver, we just say hes not as good as Kimi (overall) nothing wrong with that imo

#11 Rinehart

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:12

Originally posted by RichardVirenque
is only strong at Bahrain Spain and Turkey (and those are already behind) so he is going to suffer a lot for the rest of the season.

This is the "en vogue" theory regarding Massa with the goal of showing he is not as strong as the other top drivers (which ones?).

let examine this theory.

Why do poeple think Massa is specially strong at those circuit?
- He won Bahrain and Spain last year. Nothing more for those circuits. But at that time that was explained by a lot by the fact that KR was not yet fully integrated (and blow his engine at Spain). In 2006 massa didn't do anything special at Barcelona and while he qualified very well at bahrain, he spun and finished 9th.
- Massa won in Turkey in 2006 but many said he only won because of the safety car, and last year, he was supposed to have only won due to an error of Kimi in qualy (since he was outqualified with less fuel and by the end of the race, kimi seems to be a lot faster than massa and his best lap was 0.6s faster than Massa's)

so before this year, nothing really could have indicated, according to the same poeple now saying that are his best tracks (now gone), that he has done anything special in those circuits. A driver can win, but there are always good explanations if you don't think he was the best.

Les examine Massa's record at other tracks now
- Monaco, Last year he qualified 3rd and finished 3rd, ahead of teammate, setting the three best laps of a ferrari that week end. The mac were unstoppable
- Canada: he was outqualified by kimi (with more fuel) but was running well in front when disqualified
- USA, he qualified in front of his teammate and finished in front
- France: he qualified in front, good race, lost in the last stop to kimi, but the duo was evenly matched.
- Nurburgring. He qualified second, and in the first lap, it was kimi who did the mistake on rain by missing the pit entry. massa was in front until kimi retired. Finished second
- England; started behind, overtook cars, and finished well in the points, nice race.
- Hungary. we all saw the qualy, but until his problem, he did'nt show any sign of being slow (or slower than Kimi)
- Spa: started second with more fuel than kimi (was faster if 1 lap = 0.1s there) and finished second
- monza: was in front of kimi when retired
- japan, set the pole there in 2006, let pass MS who was unable to pull away; last year (new track) after the safety car, he was 20s behind the pack under the rain, and overtook a lot of cars and overtook RK in a very nice way in the last lap. wasn't slower than team mate.
- china:
- brazil won in 2006 and was at least as faster last year than the winner
- Australia: difficult races but not due to lack of pace in both 2007 and 2008
- Sépang: His qualy lap was 0.4s faster than team mate: spun while second: once again nothing to do with his speed.

so in all these circuits Massa presents no sign of lack of pace compare to Bahrain, Turkey or Spain.

I would like someone who think that Massa is inconsistent in terms of speed to come here and explain me why.


The other theory is to think he is inconsistent in term of errors. I can also do the count for the top 4 runners of last year, or of this year. massa is not leading both these counts.


Without Massas retirement in Monza last year, there would not have been end of season team orders in Spa, Fuji or China and we would have seen Massa fight for the title and demonstrate he is strong at those tracks also. As it was he faired pretty well at Spa which is generally the yardstick of drivers circuits.

#12 kar

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:16

Without Massas retirement in Monza last year, there would not have been end of season team orders in Spa, Fuji or China


:rotfl:

I can buy team orders in Brazil, and maybe a couple other races where the order to 'hold station' might have been given, but at those three races Kimi was frankly outstanding.

#13 Gareth

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:26

I think Richard's point is a decent one. Kimi was clearly the better driver last season, but how many races did he show Massa a completely clean pair of heals to the extent that there is no chance Massa could reverse it this season?

For example in France - sure, Kimi won and was the better driver there last season, no doubt. But the margin wasn't huge. Do I expect Kimi to be better there again this season? Sure. Is there a chance Massa could turn it round? Yes - the gap wasn't big enough to think "this is a guaranteed Kimi will beat Massa circuit".

I think the basic point isn't that Massa was better than Kimi last season, nor that he should be expected to be better this season. Just that the suggestions that his time to shine has passed and he now has no chance in the remaining races (now that "his circuits" of Bharain, Barca and Turkey are done) could be wide of the mark. Kimi wasn't that far away from Massa last season in each of the remaining races that Massa couldn't turn it round.

#14 Digitaldrug

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:26

Massa is B class and always has been. One of the most undeserving ferrari drivers in history. Every race he wins cheapens race wins. Hopefully hes out next year.

#15 Spunout

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:28

Originally posted by kar


:rotfl:

I can buy team orders in Brazil, and maybe a couple other races where the order to 'hold station' might have been given, but at those three races Kimi was frankly outstanding.


Indeed. And even "hold station" happened more often in cases where the order was FM-KR. I agree Brazil was team orders; there was no race to begin with.

#16 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:35

I can think at the kimi fans (only those, not all) that said in 2006 that MS is old for allowing massa to be so close to him in his performance. it turns out kimi is not even at that level, but heck, the same people said that massa will be lapped by kimi and stuff like that...of course, kimi is not yet used to the ferrari, but after 3-4 more years, he will do it

#17 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 10:37

Originally posted by Spunout
While I appreciate the fact that somebody speaks up for Massa (still underrated), I have to say RichardVirenque´s "analysis" is textbook example of selective logic.

:drunk:

selective logic that is not apply for other drivers?
please name me one driver that is consistently fast (or faster than the other).
If you can't there is no reason to particularly point Massa. that was my point

#18 speedy

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:10

Every coin has two sides.

NB

Richard Virenque became famous for his stubborn denial of using EPO despite evidence .....

#19 Owen

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:26

We're getting all the Massa bashers coming out of the woodwork now... :rolleyes:

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#20 Hippo

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:29

Originally posted by Owen
We're getting all the Massa bashers coming out of the woodwork now... :rolleyes:

Well, the OP was literally begging for it...

#21 Spunout

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:36

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
I can think at the kimi fans (only those, not all) that said in 2006 that MS is old for allowing massa to be so close to him in his performance. it turns out kimi is not even at that level, but heck, the same people said that massa will be lapped by kimi and stuff like that...of course, kimi is not yet used to the ferrari, but after 3-4 more years, he will do it


Teammate cross-comparisons take the cake. Always. Even without Hill-JV-HHF case.

Obviously it is logical to assume Kimi is not on Schumi level, as MS beat FM with bigger margin. But part of that is KR being new at Ferrari (well, in last year anyway). OTOH it is completely and utterly illogical to assume that Felipe has upped his game from 2006, his first year at Ferrari where he was #2 to Driving God who literally ran the entire team.

#22 Atreiu

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:38

This decade started with Schumacher and then Alonso as the benchmark for consistency and speed. Now, to be honest, there is no driver who is absolutely consistent and on the mark as those two were in their best seasons. Not even Raikkonen seems to be as consistent as he was, IMO.

#23 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:39

Originally posted by Hippo

Well, the OP was literally begging for it...

If he can respond then no pb

#24 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:40

Originally posted by speedy
Every coin has two sides.

NB

Richard Virenque became famous for his stubborn denial of using EPO despite evidence .....

he was doped without knowing to quote him.
if you only have this as an argument :drunk:

#25 HoldenRT

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:41

As always the truth is somewhere in between. He's not as bad as some say, but not as good as some say either.

#26 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:42

Originally posted by HoldenRT
As always the truth is somewhere in between. He's not as bad as some say, but not as good as some say either.

like virtually all the other drivers out there

#27 Atreiu

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:44

Hippo, it's hard to overtake when you qualify in front.



And about Massa's comeback at Silverstone, talk about apples and oranges, or about a wet/damp and a totally dry race in a track in which turbulence affects cars trying to overtake very heavily.

#28 Hippo

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:50

Originally posted by Atreiu
Hippo, it's hard to overtake when you qualify in front.

I know, but you should have checked average starting position to substantiate your post:

3. Kimi Räikkönen 3,529
4. Felipe Massa 4,235


#29 Maldwyn

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 11:55

Originally posted by kar
...I genuinely believe had there not been a title on the line he'd have not been seen all weekend by Raikkonen.

The problem is there was a title on the line and Massa was not in contention.

There are subtle and sometimes minor differences between those who are capable of putting together a championship winning season, and those who are not. So many different factors come into play during the course of the year, but the fact remains that 2007 was Massa's best opportunity to become WDC. MS had gone, Kimi was new to the team, and Felipe was established at Ferrari and had accumulated a lot of experience...but still he failed to capitalise.

Much was made about Massa winning in Turkey for the third time in a row, and very impressive that is too, but Turkey is just 1 of 18 GP's. Given that this is his third year in a championship winning/contending car Felipe needs to produce that level of performance far more often than he's proved capable of to date. He's not a #2 apprentice anymore.

#30 molive

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 12:27

What is past is past.

The important thing is, after Australia and Malaysia Felipe was under a huge pressure and being questioned as worthy of a Ferrari drive by their fans and the whole Italian media.

Massa came back with 3 good races, including 2 solid wins. He is now back in the title run, reversing the situation, putting the pressure back on Kimi's court.

Kimi is the one who has to re-assert his role as #1 on the team and start outscoring Massa again. Any mistake by Kimi now could mean Massa surpassing him in the standings.

So, now, lets see how the ice-man will react in Monaco!

:cool:

#31 Maldwyn

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 12:49

Originally posted by molive
What is past is past.

The important thing is, after Australia and Malaysia Felipe was under a huge pressure and being questioned as worthy of a Ferrari drive by their fans and the whole Italian media.

Massa came back with 3 good races, including 2 solid wins. He is now back in the title run, reversing the situation, putting the pressure back on Kimi's court.

Very true :up: We're set for an interesting battle between Ferrari team-mates.

#32 speedy

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 12:51

Originally posted by RichardVirenque

he was doped without knowing to quote him.
if you only have this as an argument :drunk:


That's what most athletes say when caught. He first denied everything and then finally confessed. Amen.

In an interview with l'équipe, Roussel (Festina's team manager) alleged that when he told Virenque of Voet (team Festina rider)being arrested, Virenque replied mes produits, comment Je vais faire maintenant? which could be translated as my products/stuff - what am I going to do now?

#33 Atreiu

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 12:52

Originally posted by Hippo

I know, but you should have checked average starting position to substantiate your post:

3. Kimi Räikkönen 3,529
4. Felipe Massa 4,235



That doesn't mean they always started from that exact position. Massa messed up at Hungaroring and had mechanical problems at Melbourne, those two results certainly threw his average up.

Anyhow, both Massa and Raikkonen had their up and downs and neither set a long trend of domination over the other.

They were both inconsistent and have to thank the imploding McLaren 2007 management for their results.

#34 Frans

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 12:57

Massa is SOOOOO not Ferrari material.

I understood why he was taken at Ferrari when Michael was still there, Massa wouldn't be a big threat for Michael in terms of speed, consistency and overall talent, so an easy bitch as teammate so to speak.

But now with Kimi at the team and Michael gone I see no reason why Ferrari still keeps hanging on to Massa.

But hey, it's they're money...

#35 speedy

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 12:59

Originally posted by molive


So, now, lets see how the ice-man will react in Monaco!

:cool:


Last year the ice-man was trailing quite badly in championship standings and messed up big way in Monaco. However that did not prevent him from winning the championship - the season is long and all the GPs count. Traditionally Kimi has done well in Monaco and is one of the few who have managed to win there, so the chances are that he might have some success there. I predict he beats Felipe in Monaco - if he doesn't, that's not the end of the world either.

#36 Rinehart

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 13:06

Originally posted by kar


:rotfl:

I can buy team orders in Brazil, and maybe a couple other races where the order to 'hold station' might have been given, but at those three races Kimi was frankly outstanding.


Whats with the role of laughter? I think you might have shot your load a bit early. You've just agreed my exact point that Massa was subject to team orders at the end of the season when you said 'I can buy team orders in Brazil, and maybe a couple other races' so my point remains that had Massa still been in the championship, he may well have put Kimis performances in context (or he may not). As it is Fuji and Brazil were pretty obvious. To call that Brazil gift of a win 'outstanding' deserves a roll of the eyes frankly. Here you go then: :rolleyes:

#37 RichardVirenque

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 13:10

Originally posted by speedy


That's what most athletes say when caught. He first denied everything and then finally confessed. Amen.

In an interview with l'équipe, Roussel (Festina's team manager) alleged that when he told Virenque of Voet (team Festina rider)being arrested, Virenque replied mes produits, comment Je vais faire maintenant? which could be translated as my products/stuff - what am I going to do now?


usually they said it is not possible, it's a mistake or find so many kind of excuses
virenque was never caught doped or with doping products. that's why he kept denegating for years.
But he was forced to admit it latter, and in cycling (I don't know about the other sports), admitting is the same as
being caught.

Anyway I liked him before and after that.

And in french what he said was "je me suis dopé à l'insu de mon plein gré", don't know how to fully translate it, but it was really funny

#38 noikeee

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 13:12

Originally posted by Rinehart


Whats with the role of laughter? I think you might have shot your load a bit early. You've just agreed my exact point that Massa was subject to team orders at the end of the season when you said 'I can buy team orders in Brazil, and maybe a couple other races' so my point remains that had Massa still been in the championship, he may well have put Kimis performances in context (or he may not). As it is Fuji and Brazil were pretty obvious. To call that Brazil gift of a win 'outstanding' deserves a roll of the eyes frankly. Here you go then: :rolleyes:


Team orders at Fuji is becoming an urban legend. :

#39 Taxi

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 13:28

Kimi has to get his act togheter in qual. from there Massa will have few chances of beating him. Team orders shlould not be used even if in theory Kimi is the best candidate for a title. He has to deserve his status. As long as ferrari respects Massa and Kimi as equals most fans will respect ferrari too. and so will the sport in general.

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#40 cardin

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 13:54

Originally posted by Maldwyn

The problem is there was a title on the line and Massa was not in contention.

There are subtle and sometimes minor differences between those who are capable of putting together a championship winning season, and those who are not. So many different factors come into play during the course of the year, but the fact remains that 2007 was Massa's best opportunity to become WDC. MS had gone, Kimi was new to the team, and Felipe was established at Ferrari and had accumulated a lot of experience...but still he failed to capitalise.

Much was made about Massa winning in Turkey for the third time in a row, and very impressive that is too, but Turkey is just 1 of 18 GP's. Given that this is his third year in a championship winning/contending car Felipe needs to produce that level of performance far more often than he's proved capable of to date. He's not a #2 apprentice anymore.


It always amazes me how people easily forget recent history. By Monza(the 13th race out of 17 races) Massa was ahead in the championship (and in the race) when he DNF'ed. After Monza he had no more chances and what he did didn't matter anymore since even the constructors championship was already decided in Ferraris favor and the focus was shifted to Kimi. Do you remember now ? I mean it was not that long ago.

#41 cardin

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 13:57

Originally posted by Hippo

I know, but you should have checked average starting position to substantiate your post:

3. Kimi Räikkönen 3,529
4. Felipe Massa 4,235


I'm not sure if blind adherence to this meaningless statistic is dishonesty or you just don't know better.

#42 molive

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 13:58

Originally posted by Taxi
Kimi has to get his act togheter in qual. from there Massa will have few chances of beating him.


As it stands in today's F1, qualifying is almost 90% of the race (excluding low-fuel glory runs, of course).

One can argue that Massa has the upper hand in qualifying at Ferrari, but not by much. Qualies are so close between them, they have been decided by small mistakes and details, like fuel strategy.

And that's the key here, which driver will get to pick the low fuel strategy at Monaco, for example, where qualifying is more important than in any other venue?

#43 hello86

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:01

Originally posted by cardin


It always amazes me how people easily forget recent history. By Monza(the 13th race out of 17 races) Massa was ahead in the championship (and in the race) when he DNF'ed. After Monza he had no more chances and what he did didn't matter anymore since even the constructors championship was already decided in Ferraris favor and the focus was shifted to Kimi. Do you remember now ? I mean it was not that long ago.


shall I tell you why he was in front of Kimi at that time?
Because Kimi had 2 DNF´s because of mechanical failures.
And Massa??? ZERO - okay he had one at the Qualyfying in Melourne and one at the start in Silverstone, but they didn´t cost that much, as the 2 DNF´s cost kimi.

#44 cardin

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by paranoik0


Team orders at Fuji is becoming an urban legend. :


I don't know if there was team orders involved but what Ferrari did with Massa'a strategy is incomprehensible.
His midle stint was about 40 laps. This is a virtual one stoper with the disadvange the it was not since he had to stop again a very few laps from the end. This shows that Massa was not a factor anymore in both championships.

#45 noikeee

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:15

Originally posted by cardin


I don't know if there was team orders involved but what Ferrari did with Massa'a strategy is incomprehensible.
His midle stint was about 40 laps. This is a virtual one stoper with the disadvange the it was not since he had to stop again a very few laps from the end. This shows that Massa was not a factor anymore in both championships.


I know, it was just batshit insane. He ended up with a pretty similar "strategy" to what McLaren did with Kovalainen last race (altho that was for safety reasons related to the tyres, I think).

#46 pasadena

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:21

Originally posted by cardin


I don't know if there was team orders involved but what Ferrari did with Massa'a strategy is incomprehensible.
His midle stint was about 40 laps. This is a virtual one stoper with the disadvange the it was not since he had to stop again a very few laps from the end. This shows that Massa was not a factor anymore in both championships.

Ferrari did their very best to try to hide the obvious preferece to KR in the last part of the 2007 championship but even the blindman could have seen that FM wasn't allowed to finish ahead of KR any more.

Not that I mind it -I've always found team orders acceptable. But I mind hypocrisy of some of the people. KR won the title in a good deal thanks to team orders just like many drivers before him. It's fine with me but there's no reason not to acknowledge it.

#47 pasadena

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:29

Originally posted by hello86


shall I tell you why he was in front of Kimi at that time?
Because Kimi had 2 DNF´s because of mechanical failures.
And Massa??? ZERO - okay he had one at the Qualyfying in Melourne and one at the start in Silverstone, but they didn´t cost that much, as the 2 DNF´s cost kimi.

Up until the last few races, FM overall looked like the stronger Ferrari driver. Then KR got his act together, FM retired at Monza and Ferrari promptly applied team orders.

#48 cardin

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:35

Originally posted by pasadena
Ferrari did their very best to try to hide the obvious preferece to KR in the last part of the 2007 championship but even the blindman could have seen that FM wasn't allowed to finish ahead of KR any more.

Not that I mind it -I've always found team orders acceptable. But I mind hypocrisy of some of the people. KR won the title in a good deal thanks to team orders just like many drivers before him. It's fine with me but there's no reason not to acknowledge it.


Ferrari was pretty fair with both drivers last year(and this year so far) They would be stupid if they didn't favored Kimi in the last few races and it's silly denying it didn't happen.

#49 pingu666

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:43

hes not too shabby, and last year was his first stab at a championship at f1 level, he didnt do tooo badly ;) kimi has twice the f1 experience as massa, with last year being his 3rd/4th season long championship attempt.

#50 pasadena

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Posted 14 May 2008 - 14:44

Originally posted by cardin


Ferrari was pretty fair with both drivers last year(and this year so far) They would be stupid if they didn't favored Kimi in the last few races and it's silly denying it didn't happen.

Yes, that's my point as well!