50 replies to this topic

[Barry Boor]

Like a terrier with a bone, Kingsley Rob was, shall we say, persistent, last weekend in the Principality, to pin down the dates when certain edifices were constructed by or near the circuit.

One question that nagged was the actual year that a) the swimming pool was built, and b) when did they actually build the road that runs around the outside of it?

This question is not as easily answered as I originally thought because although the racing cars never began to go AROUND the swimming pool until 1973, we are certain that the swimming pool had been there for some time and possibly the road too, though not for so long.

Also, the line of buildings that run alongside the paddock, which now include the Stars & Bars etc; when were they constructed.

As an aside, we were surprised to see that the hotel thoughtlessly built where the railway station should be has undergone yet another name change. It was Loewes (sp?) Monaco Grand, then something else? but is now the Fairmont. Pity they don't pull it down and build a nice little railway station there!

Speaking of the railway station (how long IS that platform????) we were somewhat surprised to see that the first 20 metres or so of the entrance, at the Gasworks end of the station, seems not to have been touched in the 2 years since we were last there and is totally unfinished, being bare concrete and shuttering.

Perhaps its lack of ability to generate Euros as opposed to the cash that comes from apartments and hotel rooms is the cause of the delay.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
One question that nagged was the actual year that a) the swimming pool was built, and b) when did they actually build the road that runs around the outside of it?

This question is not as easily answered as I originally thought because although the racing cars never began to go AROUND the swimming pool until 1973, we are certain that the swimming pool had been there for some time and possibly the road too, though not for so long.

I went in 1968 and the swimming pool was there then as were the road and the marina.

[bschenker]

I think starting from the year as the Rascas was added and the road from the original Tabac corner was used as Box.

I went in 1968 and the swimming pool was there then as were the road and the marina.

I can conferm this!

.

[Barry Boor]

We are fairly sure the swimming pool was built somewhat earlier than 1968 - maybe even as early as 1964 or 65. I was there in 1962 and I don't remember it then.

[fvebr]

Stade nautique Achievement : 1961

http://fr.structurae...cfm?id=s0032396

[zoff2005]

Originally posted by Barry Boor


Speaking of the railway station (how long IS that platform????) we were somewhat surprised to see that the first 20 metres or so of the entrance, at the Gasworks end of the station, seems not to have been touched in the 2 years since we were last there and is totally unfinished, being bare concrete and shuttering.

Perhaps its lack of ability to generate Euros as opposed to the cash that comes from apartments and hotel rooms is the cause of the delay.

They are booring (sorry, boring) a tunnel through the rock behind where the old station was from the Moyenne Corniche to get into Monaco, a bit like the tunnel going out, so a lot of work is going on out of sight. Also that will all join up with the extension of the "voie rapide" which is the road through the second tunnel parallel and above the famous track tunnel, if you see what I mean. The voie rapide runs along the old railway line (the open air one which has now disappeared underground), so hopefully it will get Monaco rid of through-traffic problems, it can get awful here.

Marcus

[Barry Boor]

Swimming pool - 1961!!!! Wow, that early!

[Alan Cox]

According to the Monaco GP Library website, the circuit diverted around the pool in 1973 on land reclaimed from the sea, which, together with the new corner at Rascasse, added another 133 metres to the lap length, confirmed by Hartmt Lehbrink in his Monaco book. Between 1961 and 1973 did the circuit follow the right-hand side of the pool?
http://www.monaco-gr...agesE/1973.html

[john ruston]

Thought the circuit went on inside of pool that at the time stuck out into Harbour.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Alan Cox
Between 1961 and 1973 did the circuit follow the right-hand side of the pool?
http://www.monaco-gr...agesE/1973.html

The circuit in 1968, & again in 1972, followed the original road from Tabac to the Gasworks hairpin.

[Kingsleyrob]

Thanks for starting this thread Barry!

What alerted me to the swimming pool's existence earlier than we might have thought is its appearance in 'Grand Prix' in the aerial shots.

The pink building alongside the quay can be seen in some 1957 footage too.

Rob

[Kingsleyrob]

Originally posted by Stephen W


The circuit in 1968, & again in 1972, followed the original road from Tabac to the Gasworks hairpin.

Steve, are you suggesting the circuit did something different 69 to 71...?

Maybe I am misreading as I certainly recall Jack's excursion at the Gaswork's in 1970 using the 'traditional' layout...

Rob

[Kingsleyrob]

Originally posted by fvebr
Stade nautique Achievement : 1961

http://fr.structurae...cfm?id=s0032396

Great definitive answer fvebr - thanks!

Raised my eyebrows as much as Barry's!

So when was the swathe of land reclaimed beyond the pool? Seen here http://en.structurae...ex.cfm?JS=95816

I am pretty sure that this was not here as early as 1961.

The buildings we are talking about can also be clearly seen on this shot too.

Rob

[David Beard]

Originally posted by Barry Boor
Swimming pool - 1961!!!! Wow, that early!

I don't believe it.

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Kingsleyrob


Steve, are you suggesting the circuit did something different 69 to 71...?

Maybe I am misreading as I certainly recall Jack's excursion at the Gaswork's in 1970 using the 'traditional' layout...

Rob

No I'm not suggesting anything of the kind. It is just that I went to Monaco in '68 & '72 and was speaking from personal experience.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by David Beard


I don't believe it.

There's a 1964 aerial picture in David Hodges' Monaco GP book looking from Gasometer Hairpin towards the swimming pool. At that time the harbour wall and the edge of the road seem to have been one and the same, with boats drawn up on a beach (of sorts) below the wall and with two pontoons stretching out at right angles to the shore. The shoreline around the pool looks to be where it is now, although lower and with no road on top of it.

[Red Socks]

THe FIA year book-Yellow Books- show the circuit configations all over the world, but the first is in 1968.
However reference to those shows that from 1968 until 1973 the circuit ran inside the swimming pool. In 1974 it goes outside and becomes 3.278 km rather than 3.145.
This circuit remains static until the 1978 Yellow book where there is a change in the Rascasse with the effect of the circuit becoming a little longer again at 3.312.
It may well be however that the changes took place 1973 and 1977 and that the Yellow Book runs behind the modification.

[fines]

... which just goes to show what an inaccurate source the FIA "Yellow Book" is!;) I'm 100 % sure the detour around the Piscine and Rascasse was first made in 1973, and the Sainte Devote and Gazometer chicanes were built in 1976. All of which is immaterial in the context of this thread, however. The only thing I can add is that I'm sure I have seen pictures from the sixties showing the pool - which doesn't add a thing, I'm afraid!

[jph]

Christian Moity's history of the Monaco GP includes an explanation of the re-routing around the swimming pool in the notes about the 1973 race, highlighting how the earlier turn-in to Tabac enabled space to be created for new grandstands in what had previously been a no-man's land. A photograph of the start of the 1961 race in that volume, showing the cars turning into the Gasometer hairpin, clearly shows building work in progress on the harbour side of the road, suggesting that the pool was then under construction.

To add a possible twist, however, the English language translation of the notes to the 1973 race refers to "[The circuit undergoing] ... several changes including ... the bypassing of the old Tabac corner and the building of a new swimming pool around the outside of which ran the track ..." So, might the 1961 pool have been replaced by a new one built between the '72 and '73 races, or the area taken up by the pool and associated buildings extended? There certainly seems to be a bit more 'infrastructure' around the pool now than was the case in the picture taken in '64 published in the Hodges book.

[Vitesse2]

Originally posted by fines
... which just goes to show what an inaccurate source the FIA "Yellow Book" is!;) I'm 100 % sure the detour around the Piscine and Rascasse was first made in 1973, and the Sainte Devote and Gazometer chicanes were built in 1976. All of which is immaterial in the context of this thread, however. The only thing I can add is that I'm sure I have seen pictures from the sixties showing the pool - which doesn't add a thing, I'm afraid!

Well, inaccurate up to a point, Michael. The Yellow Book was always published in early January, having probably gone to press in late October. So the track maps were necessarily the previous year's layout.

Originally posted by jph
There certainly seems to be a bit more 'infrastructure' around the pool now than was the case in the picture taken in '64 published in the Hodges book.

... but two fewer flagpoles

[D-Type]

In Lang's Grand Prix the entry for the 1972 race says

In an effort to improve safety standards, several significant alterations were made before everyone arrived for the annual 'race round the houses'. The main change was the re-siting of the pits/paddock layout away from the central island situated between the Gasworks hairpin and St Devote: the two were now separated, with an underground garage, near the gasworks hairpin, being utilized as the paddock whilstthe pits were located just after the tunnel where the chicane had been. Now a chicane had been incorporated near the Tabac corner and at the exit from the new pits layout, traffic control being carried out by means of a manually operated gate at the end of the pits lane.

so changes were afoot.

Then for 1973 he says

A major improvement scheme taking place in Monte Carlo had brought about considerable changes to the 'round the houses' circuit as it incorporated a new, wider and straighter seafront road extending all the way from Portier Corner to the Gasworks Hairpin. Gone was the familiar old tunnel and in its place a new and very modern tunnel had been built which was not only longer but also partially open to daylight. The chicane was moved backto its position prior to the 1972 race but the Tabac corner was bypassed by a new corner on the samelevel as the rest of the road. From there the road projected further out into the harbour than hitherto and ran around the outside of the swimming pool by means of a sharp left-right turn before swinging to the left again at the western side of the harbour. Then after going through 180 degrees there was a short rise up to a point where the new roadjoined the existing one just past what was the Gasworks Hairpin. the area which previously formed part of the circuit from the Tabac to the Gasworks hairpin was now used for the pits with the entry being situated at the apex of the old hairpin, while the exit was just before the approach to St.Devote

So we have the swimming pool being built in 1961 and the road around it in 1972-73.

Photos of the stretch from Tabac to the Gasworks Hairpin are very scarce. But on page 85 of my copy of Cimarosti there is a 1929 map of the circuit that shows something to seaward of the this stretch approximately where the swimming pool was built later.

On another point: has anybody else noticed how the three palm trees on the inside of the Station (Grand Hotel) hairpin change in height over the years. I think they have been replanted a couple of times.

[Racer.Demon]

I was also intrigued by what seemed to be 'reclaimed land' in the harbour, on the exit of the tunnel. How long's that been there?

And the sight of the wall rising up from the chicane and beyond being covered by new apartment blocks (very narrow ones from the look of the one that is currently under construction) and slowly disappearing from sight was a bit of shocker as well. Still, very expensive ground I should think, so no wonder... How have these buildings affected the course of the track from Tunnel exit to Tabac?

[fines]

Originally posted by Vitesse2
Well, inaccurate up to a point, Michael. The Yellow Book was always published in early January, having probably gone to press in late October. So the track maps were necessarily the previous year's layout.

That was my point: the last change took place in 1976, not '77, so the new layout should've been in the '77 FIA book.;)

Originally posted by D-Type
So we have the swimming pool being built in 1961 and the road around it in 1972-73.

Does everyone agree???? I was sure the road was there much, much earlier!

[zoff2005]

The reclaimed land is all quite recent, since they put in the new sea wall - which floats incidentally (this is the main wall stretching from the palace side out to sea). The other wall is "fixed" - going from below the Fairmont (ex Loews) out towards the main wall. The reclaimed land on the Fairmont side is brand new. The yacht club is supposed to be transferred here (the new club house will be designed by Norman Foster I believe). These two walls have made the port much larger and safer - you will remember how the yachts used to bob about if the swell was from the wrong direction. The reclaimed land after the "piscine" which now has a brand new grandstand on it (facing the pits) will be matched on the other side of the port (i.e. the Tabac side) - I think they will start on this after the GP this year. I don't think there are plans to change the track at Tabac, although I think Tabac may have to become a sharper corner, or start earlier or something.

The new building just before the Chicane took the place of a rather ugly ramp which you might remember - it went down from Avenue d'Ostende/Beau Rivage to the "express road" ("voie rapide"). The new building has not changed the line of the track at all from the tunnel to the Chicane.

[Racer.Demon]

Thanks, I gathered that all those harbour-side additions were fairly recent. But it's hard to believe that the new buildings covering the old wall haven't changed the track - the bit before the chicane looked much narrower compared to what I can remember having seen on older footage.

[D-Type]

Originally posted by fines
Does everyone agree???? I was sure the road was there much, much earlier!

The 1964 photo in David Hodges's book shows a road round the harbour side of the swimming pool, but it appears to be at a lower level and narrower than the current one that has been part of the track since 1973.

We really need year by year photos to be certain of when particular changes were made. Clearly dated circuit maps that show a few background features or clearly dated street maps would also help.

[T54]

Looking at Monaco today, I am simply so sorry that developpers were allowed to build the modern monstrosities that now infest the city, over-crowding the sweet old 19th century villas that are so pretty. It is simply a crime against good taste.
Then again, when one looks at a modern F1 or an IRL lump...

T54

[bschenker]

I little help a photo (not perfect) from about 70-71 (I marked the position frm swimming pool). The road in the picture is now the box area.



Interesting is also a view on Google Map or Earth.

The level from the pool was lower and I cant remember (68/69) a road on the side of the chicane. The chican was not on the same place then today and was directly on the water, on the photos from Regazzoni in the Tecno F3 you can see ther is water just behind the rail.

.

[Barry Boor]

I am simply so sorry that developpers were allowed to build the modern monstrosities that now infest the city, over-crowding the sweet old 19th century villas that are so pretty.

This is SO true.

When I first went there in 1962 it was a breathtakingly beautiful place.

Now....

[fines]

Originally posted by D-Type
The 1964 photo in David Hodges's book shows a road round the harbour side of the swimming pool, but it appears to be at a lower level and narrower than the current one that has been part of the track since 1973.

Alright then, to save face let me rephrase and say that a road was there much, much earlier!;)

[D-Type]

Originally posted by fines

Alright then, to save face let me rephrase and say that a road was there much, much earlier!;)

The road on the 1964 photo is just behind the beach and possibly unsurfaced. The 1929 map in Cimarosti also shows a road in the same location - between the beach and the circuit. BUT it also shows some sort of construction between the boulevard or race track and the road/beach in the approximate location of the present day swimming pool - maybe 150m parallel to the track by 25m into the harbour. It is shown with double diagonal cross hatching, which is different from buildings which only have single hatching and the pits on the strip between the two lengths of track, which are shown with double crosshatching but square not diagonal.

It's not really possible to describe it clearly. Could someone with a scanner and the book possibly post a copy here? (Page 85 of the 1997 English edition, or on the 1929 page for anyone with another edition).

I've been through the books I have and for some reason there are hardly any photos of the Tabac to Gasometer stretch of the circuit and none that show any background.

[fines]

What makes you think it's a 1929 map? It shows the start and finish on the harbour front, where it was only in the late fifties and early sixties, iirc.

[Barry Boor]

Here is the map D-type is talking about.



I was tempted to say it MUST be an old map because it's signed by Ettore Bugatti.... but that would be silly!

[Boniver]

1929 first circuit - start on the Boulevard with tram rails

1931 no longer tram rails

1955 start place before Gazometer and the Gazometer 20 m shorter

1958 chicane entry more wide

1963 start on the Boulevard (old place)

1966 new chicane (smaller)

1968 new chicane (left-right-left)

1972 chicane now 200m away
AND pits are on the port (the entry of the old chicane was the entry of the pits)
(first race with safety-rails)

1973 chicane back after tunnel
swimming pool
La Rascasse
St Devote (in side of new ronde point)
pits back to old place

1976 tunnel very longer (new buildings)
new Gazomoter (double corner now after house)
and St Devote (out side of new ronde point)

1986 new chicane - on the new plateau on the water (lift-right-left)

1997 corner before the swimming pool is more wide

2003 chicane entry widther
the road from the swimming pool and Rascasse go to the port (for the new paddock)
(corner after swimming pool is now smaller and no corner before Rascasse)

[Boniver]

Barry and Fines but this map help (see 1955)


1929 first circuit - start on the Boulevard with tram rails

1931 no longer tram rails

1955 start place before Gazometer and the Gazometer 20 m shorter
The chicane is now 300 m before bureau tabacs (before 100 m)

1958 chicane entry more wide

1963 start on the Boulevard (old place)

1966 new chicane (smaller)

1968 new chicane (left-right-left)

1972 chicane now 200m away
AND pits are on the port (the entry of the old chicane was the entry of the pits)
(first race with safety-rails)

1973 chicane back after tunnel
swimming pool
La Rascasse
St Devote (in side of new ronde point)
pits back to old place

1976 tunnel very longer (new buildings)
new Gazomoter (double corner now after house)
and St Devote (out side of new ronde point)

1986 new chicane - on the new plateau on the water (lift-right-left)

1997 corner before the swimming pool is more wide

2003 chicane entry widther
the road from the swimming pool and Rascasse go to the port (for the new paddock)
(corner after swimming pool is now smaller and no corner before Rascasse)

[bschenker]

From the book "Grand Prix de Monaco" Rainer W. Schlegelmilch and Hartmuth Lehbrink

Map from 1929


Photo from 1936


Photo from 1956


A photo from the Silvio Moser Archive origine unknow 1966

.

[D-Type]

Barry,
Thanks for posting the map from Cimarosti.

Fines,
I only thought 1929 because that's where Cimarosti had it. You are right - it must be postwar

Btschenker,
Thank you for the map - it shows the buiding I was referring to. But what was it? From its location it must be connected to the harbour in some way. Fish market, Restaurant, Customs, or what?

The other photos show the problem I referred to earlier - they all show the straight from the tunnel/chicane to the Tabac, not the one from the Tabac to the Gasworks so don't show the building in the background. Perhaps there are no safe spots for photographers on the second stretch

[bschenker]

But you can see ther was not a other road on this side. I can remember its was possible go down from the road trough stairs. With the car was possibly to go town from the gasometer (rascase) side.

[bschenker]

Allways from the book "Grand Prix de Monaco" Rainer W. Schlegelmilch and Hartmuth Lehbrink

Photo from 1931


Photo from 1934


Photo from 1950


Photo from 1952


Photo from 1959 luck that's startet the work for the swimming pool


Photo from 1962


Lucking the immages, starting from the 60 the type of photos have changed, more and more the cars without the space on the side of the track. Mayby the start of the big size objectivs.
.

[bschenker]

Have found a site (spain) with many pictures

http://driverphoto.f...-monaco-t37.htm

[monoposto]

. . . Bumped . . .



. . . in case forum members missed these really amazing photographs . . .

[MCS]

Absolutely astounding Thanks monoposto.

I'm now going to spend some more time digging around the rest of the site.

[Stephen W]

Above: Graham Hill in Casino Square on his Tour d'Honneur after winning the 1968 Monaco GP


Above: Jo Bonnier (M5A) rounds the Gasworks Hairpin during practice for the 1968 Monaco GP

[Bruno]

thank for the pics.

Bonnier at the "Gazomètres" it was Thursday, I suppose,
because saturdays, is track is not dry

[Bruno]

oups sorry

[Stephen W]

Originally posted by Bruno
thank for the pics.

Bonnier at the "Gazomètres" it was Thursday, I suppose,
because saturdays, is track is not dry

No Saturday practice between the F3 heats & final.

[cpbell]

The photos in this thread have sowed a seed of interst in my mind about Tabac. The 1936 image would tend to suggest that, as well as being narrower (because of the Tobacconist's shop and steps on the outside), the road to Tabac sloped down all the way. By the 1956 image there's signs of the road at least levelling-off, and, in his description of a lap of Monaco, I recall Graham Hill mentioning an inclined "ramp" up to the now widened Tabac. By the time of the on-board lap from 1973 that shows the new section around the Pool, the corner had been realigned and the road from the chicane seemed flat, suggesting to me that the chicane had been raised.

[Kingsleyrob]

Originally posted by cpbell
The photos in this thread have sowed a seed of interst in my mind about Tabac. The 1936 image would tend to suggest that, as well as being narrower (because of the Tobacconist's shop and steps on the outside), the road to Tabac sloped down all the way. By the 1956 image there's signs of the road at least levelling-off, and, in his description of a lap of Monaco, I recall Graham Hill mentioning an inclined "ramp" up to the now widened Tabac. By the time of the on-board lap from 1973 that shows the new section around the Pool, the corner had been realigned and the road from the chicane seemed flat, suggesting to me that the chicane had been raised.

I too have been fascinated by the "ramp" effect up to Tabac (as I have by a lot of things about Monaco - Barry started this thread in recognition of my curiosity!), but from 1973 and the new section there is an easy explanation which doesn't require the raising of the chicane...

The diversion around the swimming pool is actually at a lower level than the original circuit, so it's more or less at the same level as the chicane.

Today's stands actually sit on the old circuit, which is now a car free "promenade" and in the summer has kiddie's funfair rides on it.

Nevertheless, I have still been perplexed in the past about the severity of the pre-73 ramp, and have sometimes just put the differences apparent in photos and films down to camera angles. I've no doubt a look through some more photos and some of the books on my shelves might reduce my puzzlement - or not!

Cpbell - if you haven't already you must visit the place! I was fascinated by Monaco when I picked up my first motor racing books in my local library when I was about seven, in 1962. I have been lucky enough to get there a few times and get a 'spiritual' feeling, same as I do at the old Rheims pits and grandstands, at the Monza banking, and - I am pleased to say - at Oulton Park which is a lot more local, about twenty minutes away.

Rob

[cpbell]

Thanks Kingsleyrob for your reply. As I am disabled, foreign travel is tricky, so I suspect I might never get the chance! When I mentioned the Pool, I meant that I knew the film was from '73 because the track surface around the Pool was brand new, but my reference was purely about the Chicane to Tabac section! (Though I didn't know that the surface on the Pool detour was higher than the old promenade). I presume that what you are saying about the rerouting of Tabac explains it's repositioning and the reduction in angle of the corner, but not the disappearance of that confounded ramp.

[Kingsleyrob]

Originally posted by cpbell
The photos in this thread have sowed a seed of interst in my mind about Tabac. The 1936 image would tend to suggest that, as well as being narrower (because of the Tobacconist's shop and steps on the outside), the road to Tabac sloped down all the way. By the 1956 image there's signs of the road at least levelling-off, and, in his description of a lap of Monaco, I recall Graham Hill mentioning an inclined "ramp" up to the now widened Tabac. By the time of the on-board lap from 1973 that shows the new section around the Pool, the corner had been realigned and the road from the chicane seemed flat, suggesting to me that the chicane had been raised.

I have found a photo that I took last year that should illustrate the difference in height between the "old" circuit and the swimming pool complex, thus eliminating any ramp from the chicane level to the height of the "old" Tabac corner.

It also shows how the old "harbour side" straight that now includes the pit lane has been widened too. Here goes...



Rob