45 replies to this topic

[Honza]

Hi friends,

I have one big wish. Somewhere at Nostalgia forum was in the past entry list of Osella team for season 1986, I think it was from Autosport or Autocourse... don´t know now. I saved it and it´s only what i have.
I collect materials about Osella between 1985 and 1987 and have a chaos with chassis numbers.
I have only Grand Prix book from John Townsend and Nigel Roebuck for year 1987 and there is so many mistakes.
I have no more materials or books with statistics.
Can anybody help me with years 1985 and 1987. I will be pleased for - Race, driver, chassis number, spare car

Thanks so much for your help.
Honza

[Arjan de Roos]

Honza,

Try the search function. There is one Osella (merged) thread where amongst others Guido de Carli posted such lists.

http://forums.autosp...ighlight=osella

[Honza]

Thanks I know that, It´s thread what i wrote about, but there is only year 1986. I need 1985 and 1987, anyone can help please??

[Phil Rainford]

Not a great deal of help but here is a shot of Piercarlo Ghinzani from Silverstone 1985....



Kind regards

Phil

[fines]

According to AUTOCOURSE:

1987 FA1F-01   FA1G-01   FA1I-01

BR   -		 spare	 Caffi

RSM  spare	 Tarquini  Caffi

B	-		 spare	 Caffi

MC   -		 spare	 Caffi

Det  -		 spare	 Caffi

F	-		 sp/Caffi  Caffi/dns

GB   -		 spare	 Caffi

D	-		 spare	 Caffi

H	-		 spare	 Caffi

A	-		 spare	 Caffi

I	spare	 Forini	Caffi

P	spare	 Forini	Caffi

E	spare	 Forini	Caffi

MEX  -		 spare	 Caffi

J	-		 spare	 Caffi

AUS  -		 spare	 Caffi

Very straightforward!

[rateus]

From Autosport 1985:

Brazil - Ghinzani raced FA1E-03, spare FA1C-02. I have some doubts about the accuracy of this...

FA1F-02 is listed as the race car for Portugal, San Marino, Canada and Belgium (the one they actually raced), and spare at Monaco.

FA1G-02 was the race car everywhere else and spare at San Marino (where it was new). I suspect, though unconfirmed by Autosport, that the team took both FA1G-02 and FA1F-02 to every race from Imola onwards, with the older car only being listed when it actually started the race.

Wait a minute - what about FA1G-01 (I hear you say)? Over to Nigel Roebuck's practice report from Imola:
"This tean has its idiosyncracies. The chassis plate of the new car, for example, is FA1G-02. Where, I enquired, was 01? Ah, they said, we didn't build an 01..."

[ghinzani]

they may have not built an 01, or they may have just recycled... remember the first turbo car was an ALFA 183 with a new chassis plate.

[Gert]

Sorry, I don't seem to be able to make nice columns like Fines did :s

This is what French magazine Sport-Auto had:

FA1-I-87/1: Caffi at RSM, B, MC; spare at Det; Caffi at P, E, MEX, J, AUS
FA1-I-87/02: Caffi at Det; Forini at P, E; spare at MEX, J, AUS
FA1-I-87 (unspecified) : Caffi at H, A, I

FA1-H-86 (unspecified) : spare at H, A; Forini at I; spare at E

FA1-G-85/1: Tarquini at RSM
FA1-G-85/02: spare at B, MC
FA1-G-85 (unspecified) : spare at RSM

(I don't have all 1987 magazines - hence some missing data

---

And from another Source, photocopies from an unknown Dutch book:


FA1-I/87 (unspecified) : Caffi at RSM, MC
FA1-I/01: Caffi at B, Det, GB, D, H, I, P, MEX, JAP
FA1-I/02: Forini at P,

FA1-H/01: Caffi at F; Forini at I

FA1-G/85 01: Tarquini at RSM
FA1-G/85 02: Caffi at BR

FA1-F/03: Caffi at A

No specs given at E & AUS.

[rateus]

Originally posted by ghinzani
they may have not built an 01, or they may have just recycled... remember the first turbo car was an ALFA 183 with a new chassis plate.

Well, everyone seemed to think it was a new car, and the older FA1F was used alongside it, but being Osella who knows?;)

The point is that, in 1985 at least, there was no such car as FA1G-01, recycled or not. However, just to keep historians on their toes, one appeared for 1986...

[Honza]

Thanks Phil never seen this photo before
Thanks Fines, Rateus, Ghinzani and Gert.

Here is my entry list from Grand Prix 1987/88 by Nigel Roebuck and John Townsend


Bra - FA11 (Caffi) - i thin here is mistake, but have no idea what chassis is true, maybe FA1H/01/87
SM - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
FA1G/85/02 (Tarquini)
Bel - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
Mon - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
Usa - FA1H/02/87 (Caffi)
Fra - FA1H/01/87 spare (Caffi)
FA1H/03/86 (Caffi)
GBR - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
FA1I/01/87 spare (Caffi)
Ger - FA1H/87-01 (Caffi)
Hun - FA1H/87-01 (Caffi)
Aut - FA1H/86-03 (Caffi)
Ita - FA1H/3 (Forini)
FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Por - FA1H/3 (Forini)
FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Spa - FA1H/3 (Forini)
FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Mex - FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Jap - FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Aus - FA1H/1 (Caffi)

Now when I see your posts, I think my list is completely bad. For this year was the prime car FA1I

Here is another more, from book 1000BHP Gran Prix Cars, there is some technicalinformations about each type of chassis and some races.



here is the remains of first model 183T destroyed at Kyalami


Regards
Honza

[rateus]

Originally posted by Honza
Here is my entry list from Grand Prix 1987/88 by Nigel Roebuck and John Townsend


Bra - FA11 (Caffi) - i thin here is mistake, but have no idea what chassis is true, maybe FA1H/01/87
SM - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
FA1G/85/02 (Tarquini)
Bel - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
Mon - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
Usa - FA1H/02/87 (Caffi)
Fra - FA1H/01/87 spare (Caffi)
FA1H/03/86 (Caffi)
GBR - FA1H/01/87 (Caffi)
FA1I/01/87 spare (Caffi)
Ger - FA1H/87-01 (Caffi)
Hun - FA1H/87-01 (Caffi)
Aut - FA1H/86-03 (Caffi)
Ita - FA1H/3 (Forini)
FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Por - FA1H/3 (Forini)
FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Spa - FA1H/3 (Forini)
FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Mex - FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Jap - FA1H/1 (Caffi)
Aus - FA1H/1 (Caffi)

Now when I see your posts, I think my list is completely bad. For this year was the prime car FA1I

Bear in mind that those 'Grand Prix' books were compilations of Nigel Roebuck's race reports from Autosport, and a quick look has confirmed that they also used the same technical data - the quoted chassis numbers are exactly as above, including Brazil's 'FA11' :

However, the original reports also include a driver-by-driver sidebar, and for Caffi in Brazil there is:
"Two Osellas, one an '86 model, the other a revamped '87 machine. Used spare in Friday qualifying, new car on Saturday. Opted to race spare after pushrod bent on front suspension of new machine."

Presumably the race car in Brazil was the one used by Tarquini in Imola, with the 'new car' being Caffi's regular mount from then on - as noted, Autosport always calls it FA1H/87-01. Incidentally this was also Caffi's original race car in Austria but was damaged in the second (!) race-stopping startline pile-up, with Caffi switching to the spare for the start that actually counted.

[Bob Amblard]

Hy,
Does someone have pictures of the 3 Osella F1 entries of Franco Forini in 1987 ?
Thank U.

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by Bob Amblard
Hy,
Does someone have pictures of the 3 Osella F1 entries of Franco Forini in 1987 ?
Thank U.

Monza
http://b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/2126

And some 'unknowns'
http://www.f1rejects...ture-index.html

[Bob Amblard]

Originally posted by jcbc3


Monza
http://b.f1-facts.com/ul/a/2126

And some 'unknowns'
http://www.f1rejects...ture-index.html

Thanks

[bathceltic]

Remember Tarquini was photed in a FA1G in the pits with Caffi and the team posing maybe on Thursday. but definitely raced the ancient FA1F car. I have been sad enough to watch old race footage and there are plenty of still photos on websites like aerogi which confirm this. I also have lots of pics and info on 1986 chassis usage if any one is interested.

[ghinzani]

The CSAI paid for Gabriele to race at Imola, as I believe they had done for Caffi the previous Autumn at Monza.

[bathceltic]

Here is my take on the Osella chassis used in 1985. There were essentailly two used. An old FA1F from 1984 and the new FA1G built for 1985. Osella were never very reliable for chassis naming and this year is a good example. They covered themselves by calling the new chassis 02 (To the confusion of Nigel Roebuck who asked the mechanics where is FA1G/01 and was told we didn't build one. But there was method in their madness as later on in the year the old chassis was renamed FA1G85/01.

Jacarepaguá Ghinzani FA1F/85 01

Estoril Ghinzani FA1F/85 01

Imola Ghinzani FA1F/85 01

Monaco Ghinzani FA1F/85 01 and FA1G/02 (Both were used in practice)


Circuit Gilles Villeneuve Ghinzani FA1G/02 (Race debut)

Detroit Ghinzani FA1G/02

Paul Ricard Ghinzani FA1G/02

Silverstone Ghinzani FA1G/02


New driver:Rothengatter
Nürburgring Rothengatter FA1G/02

Österreichring Rothegatter FA1G/02 (The spare suddenly becomes listed as FA1G85/01 but is still the old FA1F)

Zandvoort Rothengatter FA1G/02 and FA1G85/01 (Both were used in practice, definitely the FA1G/02 in the race)




Monza Rothengatter FA1G/02 (Many books say Osella ran the older car in the race. I have a still from full live coverage. It is the newer FA1G.

Spa-Francorchamps Rothengatter FA1G/02 and FA1G85/01 (Both were practised but books are right to say the older one was raced, it is clear on the tv coverage.)


Brands Hatch Rothengatter FA1G85/01 (Rothengatter failed to qualify but I have pictures of him in the old and new chassis.)


Kyalami Rothengatter FA1G/02

Adelaide Rothengatter FA1G/02

Edited by bathceltic, 21 November 2010 - 20:01.

[bathceltic]

I will try to post up a picture from each race tonight in 1985.

[Allen Brown]

Do you have GPI for 1985? It says there were two cars in Brazil, one new car (a FA1F with new front track) called FA1G-02 and "an old FA1F from last spring which "is rather pompously called" FA1G-01. In Portugal it says "the FA1F/84 cum FA1G/85s were being used again" but at San Marino it said "the real FA1G" appeared, "new from the nose to the rear wing" according to Enzo with the car previously described as G-02 as the spare. Then at Monaco they had FA1G/2 for the race and FA1F/02 as spare.

I take from this that they had two of their FA1Fs at the early races (but renumbered) with one being more heavily modified. The surviving FA1Fs from 1984 had been 02, 03 and 04 and it would be a real challenge to tell which of those cars were the "01" and "02" seen in Brazil. When they built their "real" FA1G they gave it the number FA1G/02 because it seemed to them logical as they already modified one FA1F into quasi-FA1G spec. Thereafter they had two cars, the second of the interim cars ("FA1G/02") and the new car ("FA1G/02"!).

The way I deal with this is to have three distinct models: the FA1F/84 (four built), the FA1F/85 (two built from FA1F/84 components) and the FA1G/85 (one built).

Osella model numbering is almost as confusing as what ATS got up to in their early years with cars evolving from D1 to D2 and D3 to D4.

I thoroughly recommend using GPI where it is available. After Jenks stopped paying attention to the lesser teams around 1980, GPI is the best source for keeping track of individual cars until its demise in 1986. I can't really comment on what's best after 1986 but probably Autocourse's Chassis Log Book is as good as anything.

[bathceltic]

Fantastic info, thanks. The imola car looks just like an FA1F to me. Interestingly I remember that I saw a picture of the FA1G/02 in Motoring News pit gossip section way before Monaco. It had not been painted. It might have been between Rio and Estoril. My point about the different names of the chassis came from the french formula 1 yearbook which first came out in 1985. Being Osella I am sure there was a lot of shifting of variuos components fron chassis to chassis, so the Imola FA1F may well have had a lot of new parts on it.

[bathceltic]

I left home in 1992 and my Dad chucked out my amazing collection of magazines from 1983-1992 including GPI for 1985. I had a few autosprints with great pictures of Ghinzani advertising weight lifting gear with Guido Dacco and Lella Lombardi! I had all the race reports from 83 to 92 in both autosport and Motoring News.I have never quite forgiven him. I quick phone call of 'can you move these to your house' was all it would have taken!!!

[bathceltic]

'Do you have GPI for 1985? It says there were two cars in Brazil, one new car (a FA1F with new front track) called FA1G-02 and "an old FA1F from last spring which "is rather pompously called" FA1G-01. In Portugal it says "the FA1F/84 cum FA1G/85s were being used again" but at San Marino it said "the real FA1G" appeared, "new from the nose to the rear wing" according to Enzo with the car previously described as G-02 as the spare. Then at Monaco they had FA1G/2 for the race and FA1F/02 as spare.' Allen Brown

My only confusion is that did the new FA1G chassis ie the one with the large radiator in the sidepod appear just for pictures to the press at Imola because I never saw it run on the track there? Ghinzani definitely ran the older model.

[bathceltic]

Allen Brown, I have five pictures of Ghinzani at Rio, do you know any signs of which is the newer chassis?

[bathceltic]

It maybe impossible to tell the difference between the two as the differences were under the skin.

[Allen Brown]

Yes, GPI confirms that the older model was used for the San Marino race. The reports on Portugal, San Marion and Monaco were very short by previous GPI standards and there were no pictures of the Osella. The magazine had started to cover Endurance racing, Rallying and even speedboats and was starting to lose its original readership. It was dead within 12 months.

[bathceltic]

Allen Brown, I have five pictures of Ghinzani at Rio, do you know any signs of which is the newer chassis?

Aha I have a solution. Presumbly the newer chassis was hopefully raced and that is the one with the number nearer the front of the rear wing in the picture with Ghinzani running with the Tyrrells, as it looks like a picture of the first lap down the back straight. (Note the large race day crowd in the back ground) Whereas on some of the other pics the number 24 is near the back of the wing. This theory is totally thrown out if the wings were changed on one chassis but I imagine Osella would be loath to fiddle about with spare wings and they look a similar size. But I am not aware of Osella testing at Rio before 85 or they may have done However I think we have our two chassis in these pictures.

Edited by bathceltic, 14 October 2010 - 12:18.

[bathceltic]

It says there were two cars in Brazil, one new car (a FA1F with new front track) called FA1G-02 and "an old FA1F from last spring which "is rather pompously called" FA1G-01.
So the 'new' car, FA1G-02



The 'older chassis', FA1G-01

So my confusion is why by Monaco what was definitely a new car, with a completely different body called FA1G/02? AS you say Allen Brown they seemed to be ready to admit FA1Fs were FA1Fs as late as 1986, so why the snobbery early in 1985??? Interestingly in 1987 all the books say including autocourse that Tarquini ran an FA1G in the race but the race footage proves it was an old FA!F. But would Osella claim that by that time so much under the 'skin' was FA1G that is what it deserved to be called?



Don't we love this mystery!
PS Note the different rear wings. I think he ran the black in the race. I will check the footage to verify.

Edited by bathceltic, 14 October 2010 - 20:56.

[Allen Brown]

All teams liked to make out that they had a new model for each season, even if all they'd done was make a few updates to an old car. So the March 761 was really no different to the March 751, the Lotus 92 still used the tub of the Lotus 87 and the early-season "FA1G" was really a FA1F with new front suspension. Arrows took a lot of flack for "struggling on with last year's car" when they admitted the 1981 A3 was the same car they had run in 1980. They tried renumbering the cars from '2', '5' and '6' back to '1', '2' and '3' and called it the A3B but were too honest. They should have called it the A4, claimed that it was "all new, even if some A3 components were carried over" and then stuck to that line in chassis plate and in press release. Much easier to get a sponsor if you've got a brand new car to show off.

Osella were broke in 1985. They almost didn't make it to Monza. They would have been playing every card to get sponsors. Some journalists would have seen through this and told us that the cars really were (a trait of Jenks and of GPI down the seasons) and some would have merely reprinted what the team told them (Autosport's usual approach). This is commonly the reason why one source will tell you one things and another source will tell you something else. The ATS D3/D4 confusion is a good example. Part of the challenge of constructing racing car histories is that you have to understand both what the teams were saying and what they were really doing.

Edited by Allen Brown, 16 October 2010 - 19:40.

[Michael Ferner]

Part of the challenge...

... and the fun!

[ghinzani]

Plus if you are going to basically keep re-hashing versions of a 1983 Ducarouge designed Alfa then renaming it every so often creates the impression of a different design lineage. In reality all they ever did till the FA1L at least was tidy up the same car - it can be argued indeed the FA1L is just a more intensive tidy up to the same design. Still when it was such a classic to start with, why break a winning formula?

[bathceltic]

Tarquini ran the big white sided rear wing in vthe race. Maybe taken off the Fa1G he was pictured beside.

[bathceltic]

[/quote]
Here is the FA1G he was pictured beside, maybe on Thursday?h

[bathceltic]

Would anyone be interested in a similar list of pictures of Osella's for each race in 1987, as I did for 1985?

[ghinzani]

Would anyone be interested in a similar list of pictures of Osella's for each race in 1987, as I did for 1985?

Yes please!

[bathceltic]

My main computer ground to a halt due to a virus on Thursday night but my documents and my pictures have been saved DOG. So I will be able to load the pics up on Mon or Tues evening at the earliest. Very few of my 87 pics are currently on image shack. From memory there are 5 or 6 races where I have Caffi in both chassis!

Edited by bathceltic, 16 October 2010 - 19:27.

[ghinzani]

We've waited 23 years, theres no rush! Enjoying them all greatly, obviously! Thanks

[bathceltic]

Rio FA1I followed by FA1G


Imola Only the FA1I for Caffi

Imola Tarquini FA1G followed by FA1F


Spa FA1I followed by FA1G


Monaco FA1I followed by FA1G


Detroit FA1I

Paul Ricard FA1I followed by FA1G


Silverstone FA1I followed by FA1G


Hockenheim FA1I

Hungaroring FA1I

Osterreichring FA1I

Monza Caffi FA1I

Monza Forini FA1G

Estoril Caffi FA1I

Estoril Forini FA1G

Jerez Only Forini, in what appears an FA1I. Some books ay he now had an FA1I. I think he might have been 'borrowing Caffi's car during a problem hit practice and qualifying in which both cars failed to qualify. (I can't find a picture of Caffi)

Mexico City FA1I (Back to one entry for the last 3 races)

Suzuka FA1I

Adelaide FA1I

Okay. Any comments on which chassis were run and where? Certainly the change of chassis for Forini at Jerez is interesting.

Edited by bathceltic, 19 October 2010 - 21:29.

[Rob G]

Wonderful stuff, bathceltic!

[Arjan de Roos]

More pics of Huub Rothengatter in Osella's are welcomed!!

[ensign14]

Out of interest, how come Osella never made it to the FA2? Was it that the 1 indicated the formula? Yet the prototype PA series was numbered sequentially. (The pre-teen ensign thought it was because they were all updates of the original chassis...)

[ghinzani]

Out of interest, how come Osella never made it to the FA2? Was it that the 1 indicated the formula? Yet the prototype PA series was numbered sequentially. (The pre-teen ensign thought it was because they were all updates of the original chassis...)

Nut on head I reckon - F1

[Rob G]

Out of interest, how come Osella never made it to the FA2? Was it that the 1 indicated the formula? Yet the prototype PA series was numbered sequentially. (The pre-teen ensign thought it was because they were all updates of the original chassis...)

Their F2 cars were all FA2s, but rather than having a letter as the suffix, they included a slash and the last two digits of the year. The FA2/79 was the last one before they moved up to FA1.

[Michael Ferner]

And furthermore, I believe the F2 cars were all the same (type of) chassis.

[bathceltic]

Here is proof that Rothengatter did run the newer FA1G at Monza. I got this still from full live French tv coverage. (I tried bbc coverage but we wwere probably watching sunday league cricket when the Osella pulled into the pit, that is a factual point rather than sarcasm as in those days Sunday Granstand shared a live F1 race with a sunday league cricket match. I used to leave the room and my brother who liked F1 and cricket would call me back when the F1 came back on)

Edited by bathceltic, 21 November 2010 - 22:22.

[Pink Snail]

Couldn`t see that happening now eh?

[bathceltic]

Oh it was maddening! Slightly off the thread but the famous clip of Piquet crashing off in the lead at Monaco in 1981 starts off with Murray saying'you join us at the most opportune moment.'. I am glad it doesn't happen now!!! We really missed out in Britain especially in the 1970's when countries like france and Ausria were enjoying live coverage of events like the Brazilian gp of 1976.