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Ecclestone proposes breakaway championship


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#1 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:34

http://www.timesonli...icle4083986.ece

So, via Ecclestone's mouthpiece there's proposals in play to form a separate championship outside the auspices of the FIA. I thought this as a concept warrants a separate discussion to Mosley despite the two being linked in some ways.

Anyway this time though Ecclestone is behind things, I just wonder how on Earth can CVC countenance something like this? A rival championship means their asset goes down the toilet. Ecclestone is hardly going to negotiate a deal on their behalf either when it is his contacts, his input that would be creating value in any separate series.

There were some musings about this actually being Mosley and Ecclestone's goal here, to create a rift which would allow them to ambush the majority CRH? I don't think this is the case, but it's strange this is playing out almost exactly to that conspiracy story.

The logistics of creating a brand new series is immense, circuits which have extended hosting deals have clauses in them not to host competitor series (it was one of the things that nixed the GPWC series), so that would mean all the current tracks would not be permitted to host races in the short term.

Who would 'own' the new series? Who would set the rules and who would regulate the new series? F1 got broken up because the regulator was also the profit maker, any new series would also come under scrutiny too?

So many questions I have a hard time believing this is anything other than a warning shot across the bows of the FIA to accept the proposed concorde agreement.

Anyway so many questions, and where on Earth do Ferrari stand in all of this, since although they are only two teams, Williams and Ferrari could almost singlehandedly decide which way any fight between Max and Bernie goes.

And CVC - they must be shitting bricks at the thought of incurring 1billion + of debt for no asset.

I'm :confused: :confused:

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#2 peroa

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:36

:confused: :confused: :confused:

Ecclestone has got:

- the teams
- the tracks
- the tv rights
- the F1 brand name
- the money

Mosley has got:

- can`t think of anything really.


IF this happens, there will be no rival series, it just won`t be FIA F1 championship, just F1 Championship or whatever ...

Entirely different situation than GPWC, but I didn`t expect different from you, kar...

#3 Mika Mika

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:38

Originally posted by kar
http://www.timesonli...icle4083986.ece

So, via Ecclestone's mouthpiece there's proposals in play to form a separate championship outside the auspices of the FIA. I thought this as a concept warrants a separate discussion to Mosley despite the two being linked in some ways.

Anyway this time though Ecclestone is behind things, I just wonder how on Earth can CVC countenance something like this? A rival championship means their asset goes down the toilet. Ecclestone is hardly going to negotiate a deal on their behalf either when it is his contacts, his input that would be creating value in any separate series.

There were some musings about this actually being Mosley and Ecclestone's goal here, to create a rift which would allow them to ambush the majority CRH? I don't think this is the case, but it's strange this is playing out almost exactly to that conspiracy story.

The logistics of creating a brand new series is immense, circuits which have extended hosting deals have clauses in them not to host competitor series (it was one of the things that nixed the GPWC series), so that would mean all the current tracks would not be permitted to host races in the short term.

Who would 'own' the new series? Who would set the rules and who would regulate the new series? F1 got broken up because the regulator was also the profit maker, any new series would also come under scrutiny too?

So many questions I have a hard time believing this is anything other than a warning shot across the bows of the FIA to accept the proposed concorde agreement.

Anyway so many questions, and where on Earth do Ferrari stand in all of this, since although they are only two teams, Williams and Ferrari could almost singlehandedly decide which way any fight between Max and Bernie goes.

And CVC - they must be shitting bricks at the thought of incurring 1billion + of debt for no asset.

I'm :confused: :confused:


Believe it when i see it!!!

#4 K-One

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:43

Originally posted by peroa

Mosley has got:

- can`t think of anything really.


ze whip

#5 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:45

Originally posted by peroa
:confused: :confused: :confused:

Ecclestone has got:

- the teams
- the tracks
- the tv rights
- the F1 brand name
- the money

Mosley has got:

- can`t think of anything really.


IF this happens, there will be no rival series, it just won`t be FIA F1 championship, just F1 Championship or whatever ...

Entirely different situation than GPWC, but I didn`t expect different from you, kar...


_Ecclestone_ doesn't have the tracks, tv rights, f1 brand name and indeed one would have to think himself alone, the money either. Not unless he's prepared to spend his families inheritance anyway.

#6 EvilPhil II

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:45

This has to be the greatest proposal for taking F1 forward that has seen the light of day since 1993

#7 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:47

And Peroa, just so we are clear, any new championship will NOT be called 'F1', it will probably be GP1 or whatever which Ecclestone registered in 2006 I think it was.

This has to be the greatest proposal for taking F1 forward that has seen the light of day since 1993


Greatest proposal for single seat, open wheel motor racing maybe. But F1 as a name will be dead and hence all the history that goes with that name :(

I just wonder if this has been coming for a while.

#8 Gareth

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:48

Originally posted by kar
And CVC - they must be shitting bricks at the thought of incurring 1billion + of debt for no asset.

I'm :confused: :confused:

If there is a breakaway (and that's a huge if) it would be owned by Alpha Prima (the CVC vehicle that owns FOA) and be done with CVC's consent. The investment agreement between the shareholders of Alpha Prima (i.e. CVC and Bernie) will have Bernie wrapped up tight in management covenants and restrictive covenants to ensure he cannot go his own way with a rival series.

#9 Mika Mika

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:48

Please .. This is just more BS from Gorman...

#10 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:50

Originally posted by Gareth
If there is a breakaway (and that's a huge if) it would be owned by Alpha Prima (the CVC vehicle that owns FOA) and be done with CVC's consent. The investment agreement between the shareholders of Alpha Prima (i.e. CVC and Bernie) will have Bernie wrapped up tight in management covenants and restrictive covenants to ensure he cannot go his own way with a rival series.


Then one of the few good things about a breakaway series evaporates :( (I.e. having the sport owned and ran by the sport's participants, not venture capitalists looking for maximum return).

I can't see what on earth is in the teams' interests here then, unless Bernie is preparing to dole out some serious cash?

#11 Dolph

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:51

F1 has bigger and more important issues than the sex life of one single man. I don't see why we have to put up with these political mind games all the time. Again a breakaway series??? Come on, we heard this one before. I refuse to read five years worth of newspaper articles how teams x, y and z want to form a breakaway series in order to push through their agenda of this that and smth else I don't care about.

#12 peroa

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:53

Originally posted by kar


_Ecclestone_ doesn't have the tracks, tv rights, f1 brand name and indeed one would have to think himself alone, the money either. Not unless he's prepared to spend his families inheritance anyway.


That`s right, CVC has all of it and Bernie is still doing the business for them.

Your point is?

#13 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 09:53

The difference here is before the breakaway teams would have had to compete with F1. If Ferrari, Renault and Toyota are onboard with a breakaway series they supply well over half the grid's engines there's not going to be an F1 to compete with.

With Bernie leading things I think it could work. I just fear the idea of CVC being given the keys to the castle so to speak.

People want more open and transparent motorsport, I can not see in absolutely anyway how things would be more transparent if CVC were running both the sport and the commercial interests.

#14 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:13

Originally posted by peroa


That`s right, CVC has all of it and Bernie is still doing the business for them.

Your point is?


All the rights purchased to 'F1' lapse if they break away from the FIA. The FIA then takes the asset back again as the CRH will have breached the terms of its deal.

The tracks, advertisers, etc, all have rights to host a 'F1' event, sponsor an 'F1' race etc. Their dealings may be with FOM/FOA etc, but those contracts will become null and void if F1 ceases to be a viable championship.

The CRH may be able to negotiate new agreements but its ability to do so without legal exposure will be far from clear cut.

As for Ecclestone wanting a more 'transparent' championship it reminded me of a choice quotation from the telegraph a few years back

"I can't impose my will because we're a democracy. Unfortunately," he added. "When I started F1 in the old days it used to be run a little bit more as a dictatorship. It was always: 'Be reasonable. Do it my way.' And now we've become a 'democracy'." He spat the word out again. "And it's even worse than that. A lot of regulations require a unanimous vote to change them. So it's difficult to get change at all.


http://www.telegraph...tt20.xml&page=1

#15 Lifew12

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:18

Originally posted by kar
But F1 as a name will be dead and hence all the history that goes with that name :(


What a load of sentimental bollocks, kar. F1 is a name, that's all. Simply because the name changes does not erode the history that went before. We still remember the 50 years of Grand Prix racing (and it is still Grand Prix...) that went before F1 was created; we still remember Formula Two, and Formula 3000 for heavens sake!

This could happen overnight and, bar the name, we wouldn't even notice.

I;m not sure that you're right about 'all' of the rights lapsing should this happen, either. Even if you are, the FIA would be left with a useless load of 'rights' and no competitors.

#16 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:19

Also, what has changed from before the Mosley vote, to now for Ecclestone seemingly going back on his letter to the FIA General Assembly members?

We have also raised with him a number of other issues which we considered would improve the agreements without damaging the FIA' s interests, but we accept that is a matter for the FIA to judge, it is not obliged to make those concessions to us and should it consider it is against its interests to do so, we would be content to the leave the agreements in their present form and when the time comes, to operate within their existing scope, without amendments.


The position as expoused by the Ecclestone organ 'The Times', seems directly at odds with the position put forward by Ecclestone barely 2 weeks ago.

#17 Timstr11

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:20

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Please .. This is just more BS from Gorman...

No it isn't.
A few additional details here in german (co-authored by Dieter Rencken. Isn't he an autosport.com writer?).

To me it does make more sense for the manufacturers and the CRH to have more say in the technical regulations.

The governing body should see to it that rules and safety measures are adhered to.

Currently the FIA also decides about the commercial (KERS etc.) direction of F1 and to me that is strange.

It looks like Bernie and the teams are going to play hardball.

#18 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:21

Originally posted by Timstr11
No it isn't.
A few additional details here in german


Thanks for that link Tim, very interesting.

#19 Mika Mika

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:24

Hey, I stand corrected, I didnt realize how little the teams respect the FIA...

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#20 peroa

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:27

Originally posted by kar


Thanks for that link Tim, very interesting.


Look, kar, rather sooner than later Max will be history.
I think you will have to deal with zis punishment.

#21 Enkei

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:27

I don't mind Ecclestone being in charge at all.
But how old is Ecclestone? Who's gonna take over when he passes away?

#22 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:28

Originally posted by Enkei
I don't mind Ecclestone being in charge at all.
But how old is Ecclestone? Who's gonna take over when he passes away?


Whoever CVC appoint if indeed they are still party to whatever happens ...

#23 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:29

Originally posted by peroa


Look, kar, rather sooner than later Max will be history.
I think you will have to deal with zis punishment.


Ultimately I don't care who is in charge of the FIA as it pertains to motorsport, but the thought of a venture capitalist group running the sport...no thanks.

#24 valachus

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:29

Yeah, great news, welcome to open wheel NASCAR! :clap: :clap:


Not.

#25 VoidNT

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:30

So Mosley wasn't lying in his prophecy - the doom is coming ;)

#26 Mika Mika

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:34

The IRL/CHAMP split worked REALLY well!!!!!!

Cant they just, Get Along...

#27 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:37

GP1 where CVC spin the wheel to see who should win this year for best ratings and and value of the sport.

No thanks, I think I'll just as soon watch A1GP.

#28 Lifew12

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 10:38

Originally posted by Mika Mika
The IRL/CHAMP split worked REALLY well!!!!!!

Cant they just, Get Along...


I don't think you quite get it - this wouldn't be a split as everyone would go with Bernie.

#29 Mika Mika

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 11:35

..... Just seems so childish, CVC, Max, Bernie, the Teams.... all of them, Bernice is right they need one person to TELL them yes/no, somone who isn't bias, who cant be bribed, and who doesn't care.... Unfortunatly with the amount of money involved thats not easy to do!

#30 Boui

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:03

The prospect of a breakaway series for F1 Has been on the cards as a real future possibility ever
since Moseley refused to heed BE's advice and resign in November - this was his one chance to exit
gracefully.

IMHO, what we are now seeing is the start of an organised campaign on the part of the teams, led on
this occasion by BE, to get rid of the impediment of the dreadful image with which the FIA, and
therefore F1, are being perceived as a result of Moseley's antics. I suppose it could also turn out
to be payback for some of the recent unfortunate remarks uttered by Moseley about the German
manufacturers, although I doubt if that is the main motive.

It is interesting to speculate whether this is just sabre-rattling on the part of the teams, or
whether they really mean business this time. There is little doubt that the real power resides with
the teams themselves - all they ever lacked was the ability to organise themselves and to present a
united front.

If a co-operative organisation between teams does come about, Moseley is then in a no-win situation
and he is either going to have to go, or he will not any longer have an F1 to treat as his own
personal fiefdom.

This could well turn out to be a classic example of "How to win the battle, but lose the war".

#31 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:12

Originally posted by Mika Mika
..... Just seems so childish, CVC, Max, Bernie, the Teams.... all of them, Bernice is right they need one person to TELL them yes/no, somone who isn't bias, who cant be bribed, and who doesn't care.... Unfortunatly with the amount of money involved thats not easy to do!


In a nutshell, exactly.

#32 Slowinfastout

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:13

Originally posted by Mika Mika
..... Just seems so childish, CVC, Max, Bernie, the Teams.... all of them, Bernice is right they need one person to TELL them yes/no, somone who isn't bias, who cant be bribed, and who doesn't care.... Unfortunatly with the amount of money involved thats not easy to do!


Thats exactly it... it would just be a 'breakaway from Max' championship... I fail to see whats so worrying.. same teams, same people, same money.. just no FIA.. new 'governing body' is all it is..

People who are opposed to that are just muddying the water unless they are pointing out how good for F1 Max is right now.

O/T but apparently it also means that not only the touring side of the FIA has a problem with Max, but plenty of people on the sporting side as well ;)

#33 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:19

'Just no FIA', that's a big change mate.

That's like playing Football without a referee, it's still football, just no rules and no one to stand between the two biggest players when they square up one another after a dodgy tackle. Maybe the teams will agree to a new referee, but who will that be? And where will the transparency be?

Who administers the day to day tasks of running the _sport_. Think, Charlie Whiting et al are all responsible for the processes of scrutineering, etc, etc. There is a huge infrastructure in place that runs the sport. We don't see it as fans, but I think the idea that you can pack up from Montreal, decamp at Magny Cours sans the FIA and all will be fine and dandy is not at all close to reality.

Maybe in time for 2010 a separate championship could be arranged but by then Mosley will be gone anyway.

One wonders then if it isn't about sex, and rather about changing the regs and commercial rights...

#34 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:21

There's an interesting take on Pitpass, love the image with Ron in the background, seems appropriate.

http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=35017

Mentions what I said about the name 'GP1' too.

#35 Slowinfastout

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:24

Originally posted by kar
'Just no FIA', that's a big change mate.

That's like playing Football without a referee, it's still football, just no rules and no one to stand between the two biggest players when they square up one another after a dodgy tackle. Maybe the teams will agree to a new referee, but who will that be? And where will the transparency be?

Who administers the day to day tasks of running the _sport_. Think, Charlie Whiting et al are all responsible for the processes of scrutineering, etc, etc. There is a huge infrastructure in place that runs the sport. We don't see it as fans, but I think the idea that you can pack up from Montreal, decamp at Magny Cours sans the FIA and all will be fine and dandy is not at all close to reality.

Maybe in time for 2010 a separate championship could be arranged but by then Mosley will be gone anyway.

One wonders then if it isn't about sex, and rather about changing the regs and commercial rights...


Its about a governing body that understands the sport. The logistics, even though they're a massive challenge, they are just a detail in comparison with having a nutty dictator continually messing around with the rules and conducting vendettas.. :rolleyes:

#36 HoldenRT

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:26

Forgetting the politcal implications of this for a second, whether it benefits Max, Bernie, the Domanatrix, whoever..

I'll believe this when I see it.

#37 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:29

Originally posted by HoldenRT
Forgetting the politcal implications of this for a second, whether it benefits Max, Bernie, the Domanatrix, whoever..

I'll believe this when I see it.


Me too, but the mere fact Bernie is threatening it gives credence previously derided of Mosley's claims the CRH were seeking to take control of the sport.

#38 Blueray

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 12:31

Originally posted by kar
'Just no FIA', that's a big change mate.

That's like playing Football without a referee, it's still football, just no rules and no one to stand between the two biggest players when they square up one another after a dodgy tackle. Maybe the teams will agree to a new referee, but who will that be? And where will the transparency be?
...


We have needed a new referee for a long time, one that isnt a cheat and who doesnt change the rules every year making the sport unstable. Do you realize the massive number of regulation changes we have had almost every year because of Mosely? Thats not good for any sport and whats worse most of them have been moronic so this would be a step in the right direction.

#39 Mika Mika

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:14

What the FIA brings to F1 is history, whether you like Max or not, the fact is unquestionable.

The current FIA administration may well be completely unfit to govern Formula 1, but It is their championship. It is called the "FIA FORMULA 1 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP"...

BTW there is a brand new FIA website today, it's still arse though :-)

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#40 JForce

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:16

I think the point is that the referee shouldn't be someone who cares about the money.

All parties should have a say in the regulations.

But those regs should be enforced and ratified by a referee that has had their one-off fee, and now just wants to administer a sport.


If Bernie was in charge of EVERYTHING as this would allow, then he's interested in ratings and dollars. Which means fixing results, inventing bizarre penalties to ensure the championship comes down to the wire etc.

I don't care who is on each side, but there does need to be 2 sides. A referee and the players. Players get the money etc. Referee just deals with the sport.

#41 VoidNT

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:16

Originally posted by Mika Mika
they need one person to TELL them yes/no, somone who isn't bias, who cant be bribed, and who doesn't care....


Kimi???

#42 kar

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:19

Originally posted by JForce
I think the point is that the referee shouldn't be someone who cares about the money.

All parties should have a say in the regulations.

But those regs should be enforced and ratified by a referee that has had their one-off fee, and now just wants to administer a sport.


If Bernie was in charge of EVERYTHING as this would allow, then he's interested in ratings and dollars. Which means fixing results, inventing bizarre penalties to ensure the championship comes down to the wire etc.

I don't care who is on each side, but there does need to be 2 sides. A referee and the players. Players get the money etc. Referee just deals with the sport.


Perfectly put.

It's funny but those who seem to think this is a good idea are not really what one would consider Ferrari fans. With corporate interests in charge of the regs AND the commercial side, Ferrari as European Open Wheel racing's most important team will have much more lee-way to pressure the running body to do things as it sees fit.

And with all the decision making, corporate and sporting taking place under the one roof, no one will get a look in, let alone a say-so.

The current setup isn't perfect, but it's damn well preferable to the idea of Ecclestone's corporate cabal running things. And let's face it, Ecclestone isn't going to be around in another 5-10 years is he?

#43 Slowinfastout

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:22

Originally posted by Mika Mika
What the FIA brings to F1 is history, whether you like Max or not, the fact is unquestionable.


Thats most likely why Bernie said he has a document for Max to sign, I dont think that document is a breakaway one. The problem now is that the FIA keeps damaging itself, through Max. How do you figure that? Clearly Max is the problem, I think the FIA would be far better without him (and his bunch of corrupt yes-men..)..

The FIA represents continuity (history), but insert Max into the equation and that becomes a hell of a problem.. :(

#44 saudoso

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:23

From Mosley Part 1 I asked if this was possible. So it is. I see this as black mail, but the forthcoming loss of the precious F1 will put Maxxx to the corner.

#45 Hippo

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:32

Originally posted by kar
That's like playing Football without a referee

I see you implying FIA is working like referees in football. But that's not how it is at all. Referees in football don't make the rules. Referees in football without any exceptions are members of clubs of their sport (in Germany at least). And referees in football don't have a "president" who is trying to increase their power at cost of anyone else who is participating in this sport. So please, don't drag a much more balanced sport into the mud with your weird comparisons.

#46 Clare

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:34

Originally posted by kar
'Just no FIA', that's a big change mate.

One wonders then if it isn't about sex, and rather about changing the regs and commercial rights...


Kar, this is not about sex, it was never and will never be....Berni was a friend of Mosley for abot thirty years? I could imagine he knew about Max sex preferences? It would all make sense now.

Auto-Motor-Sport

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#47 pingu666

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:36

have the champ car chassis been bought yet?

biggest issue is would the magic transfer with them...

#48 peroa

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 13:56

Originally posted by Clare


Kar, this is not about sex, it was never and will never be....Berni was a friend of Mosley for abot thirty years? I could imagine he knew about Max sex preferences? It would all make sense now.

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Read the article really good, kar and maybe you will see who the megalomaniac in this whole story is.

It sure isn`t Bernie ...

Seems like Max is looking for his personal "Russia".

#49 Motormedia

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 14:10

I told ya all! Mosley staying put is good for the sport. Now F1 gets rid of the big teams who don't have motor racing as their core business.

MM

#50 DarthWillie

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Posted 07 June 2008 - 14:27

Originally posted by Motormedia
I told ya all! Mosley staying put is good for the sport. Now F1 gets rid of the big teams who don't have motor racing as their core business.

MM


which leaves a series with.......... no engine suplier, maybe just Renault, teams from RBR and TR, and nobody watching because a series with Ferrari, McLaren and BMW is much more interesting.

Bernie will probably take care of the FIA licensing of tracks through the european union, its probably illegal if the FIA forbids racing on a track of a non-FIA championship. Well Canada was allready running Champcars and F1.