650 replies to this topic

[Perigee]

Is the Hamilton, Rosberg grid penalty - fair (particularly in reference to Kimi's lack of penalty in Monaco)?

McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh...perhaps speaking rashly in the heat of the moment, or in a slightly over-zealous attempt to defend his driver at all costs, suggests, given Kimi's unpunished Monaco incident, that the penalty is somewhat harsh. However, I believe there is a strong argument to suggest the circumstances were quite different, and this is your opportunity to give your view through the marvellous technology of internet polls!

Please note - this really is meant to be a poll only thread...discussion on the incident can be found in other threads...please use them!

[UPRC]

As this happened in the pitlane and was not just a "racing incident," it is a very fair penalty.

[andysaint]

Yes the penalty is fair. You can't compare the two incidents of Kimi and Lewis. Lewis hit a stationary car while waiting for a red light. Kimi made a racing mistake while battling for position on track. I'm a fan of Lewis don't get me wrong but that's a mistake even karting guys shouldn't be making

[Owen]

I'm a big Lewis fan, but he made a mistake and has acknowledged that. So I guess it's a fair penalty.

[Gareth]

It would be similar to Kimi's incident only if Kimi's incident took place under yellow flags.

Fair penalty.

[Mauseri]

The penalty fits the crime, but for Kimi it's unfair. because Hamilton benefited from this. Hamilton took Kimi out, so it would only be fair to wait till Hamilton's next win and DQ that.

[Mauseri]

If Hamilton, or anyone wins the championship 0-10 points over Kimi, we know where to point finger:

->

[Kemmel]

Last year Massa got black flaged for missing the red light. Lewis gets a 10 grid drop for missing the red light and taking out Kimi. He should have all points from france taken away

[bystander31]

The penalty is not fair - for Kimi. Lewis should start from pitlane in France.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by Kemmel
Last year Massa got black flaged for missing the red light. Lewis gets a 10 grid drop for missing the red light and taking out Kimi. He should have all points from france taken away

Agree. Not a big enough penalty for Hamilton, he's got no excuse at all other than his inexperience, but too hard on Nico. Sure, he made an error, but it must have been a lot harder for him to see beyond LW to the red light.

[vsubravet]

Originally posted by kayemod


Agree. Not a big enough penalty for Hamilton, he's got no excuse at all other than his inexperience, but too hard on Nico. Sure, he made an error, but it must have been a lot harder for him to see beyond LW to the red light.

Sorry, penalty is fair for both drivers. Nico has no excuse either; FA behind him stopped.

[rookie]

Originally posted by andysaint
Yes the penalty is fair. You can't compare the two incidents of Kimi and Lewis. Lewis hit a stationary car while waiting for a red light. Kimi made a racing mistake while battling for position on track. I'm a fan of Lewis don't get me wrong but that's a mistake even karting guys shouldn't be making

Agree....and I can't wait to hear what Windsor and Allen et al have to say about it.

[Perigee]

Originally posted by kayemod


Agree. Not a big enough penalty for Hamilton, he's got no excuse at all other than his inexperience, but too hard on Nico. Sure, he made an error, but it must have been a lot harder for him to see beyond LW to the red light.

But Massa was black flagged from the Canada race...not from the next race.

Perhaps if Hamilton had hit Kimi (and gone over the line under red still, as he did) but not damaged his car so much that it had to retire he may have been black flagged anyway.

I believe the penalty in it's current form is appropriate.

Anybody else notice in ITV's usual pre-race Lewis bukkake, he said, re. Monaco, that he "had learned from Senna's error, and not made the same mistake"? Any future F1 drivers might want to learn from "the next Senna's" Montreal error...

[donald29]

Originally posted by Kemmel
Last year Massa got black flaged for missing the red light. Lewis gets a 10 grid drop for missing the red light and taking out Kimi. He should have all points from france taken away

very true

[Mika Mika]

Ze need more of Ze Punishment I zink ;)

[anbeck]

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Ze need more of Ze Punishment I zink ;)

Viz ze vip?

Tell me that this is not happening

[Hacklerf]

i think he got away lightly to be honest.

[Risil]

Originally posted by Perigee


Anybody else notice in ITV's usual pre-race Lewis bukkake, he said, re. Monaco, that he "had learned from Senna's error, and not made the same mistake"? Any future F1 drivers might want to learn from "the next Senna's" Montreal error...

I believe it was Mansell who shot off too early from the pitlane after starting there in the '89 Canadian GP, costing himself a potential victory (it was a strange race).

If Hamilton is in the business of learning from people's mistakes, Senna is evidently the wrong guy to analyse!

[F575 GTC]

Originally posted by bystander31
The penalty is not fair - for Kimi. Lewis should start from pitlane in France.

But when he pulls out of the garage to head to the end of the pitlane....would he stop?

[wingwalker]

Watching the replay, there was no way Hamilton was stopping it. I'm actually not really sure whether he saw the light, it look to me like he realized he is going to car in front of him (Kubica, who for once wasn't screwed for obeying the light in Canada) so turned left (as he had wall on his right) and so it happened Kimi was there. So he was going to get black flagged.

Fair penalty, safety in pitlane was always a concern, it is a different situation than Kimi hitting Sutil in race conditions on track. BTW, what comes around goes around, eh Kimi?

[ensign14]

It's unfair for different reasons. Hamilton and Rosberg have been punished more than, say, Senna for his foul on Prost, Schumacher for his foul on Hill, Schumacher for his foul on Villeneuve, Schumacher for his foul on Alonso, Alonso for his foul on Coulthard, Mosley for his foul on the FIA's reputation, lots of teams for running illegal cars or fuel rigs and so on and so forth. The level of inconsistency is towering. And having blown the chance to start getting proper punishments from Monaco for a couple of bits of bad driving it seems a bit off to start it just now.

And can we please stop jokes about ze punishment? It was mildly amusing about six weeks ago.

[Risil]

Originally posted by ensign14
It's unfair for different reasons. Hamilton and Rosberg have been punished more than, say, Senna for his foul on Prost, Schumacher for his foul on Hill, Schumacher for his foul on Villeneuve, Schumacher for his foul on Alonso, Alonso for his foul on Coulthard, Mosley for his foul on the FIA's reputation, lots of teams for running illegal cars or fuel rigs and so on and so forth. The level of inconsistency is towering. And having blown the chance to start getting proper punishments from Monaco for a couple of bits of bad driving it seems a bit off to start it just now.

What are they going to do to Mosley? Drop him 10 places on the FIA lunch queue?

And while the consistency of the FIA's punishments is bizarrely lacking, IMO Hamilton should've been punished. He ran into the back of another driver in the pitlane.

[roadie]

100% Hamilton's mistake and he deserves at least the 10 place grid drop. As Nico didn't ruin someone else's race, I believe a 5 place grid drop would be more appropriate.

[Dudley]

He's got off lightly.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by roadie
100% Hamilton's mistake and he deserves at least the 10 place grid drop. As Nico didn't ruin someone else's race, I believe a 5 place grid drop would be more appropriate.

I cannot see this at all. Rosberg's "crime" was the same as Hamilton's. Had Hamilton stopped Rosberg would have ruined two races as well as his own. Has to be the same punishment for both.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Yes it was fair.

I don't like that it's the same penalty that you get if you have an engine change, but that's because the engine change rule is too harsh, not this judgement.

[Buttoneer]

Fair punishment. Conceptually, I hate the idea of any punishment being carried forward to another race but retirement gives them little choice in this instance.

[pullings]

For Rosberg ok its fair because he saw what happend in front.

But for Hamilton is very unfair. He had no space, no room to stop because it was too close to car in front of him.
They stoped together when they didnt. I think Raikonen shouldnt move head a head with Kubica. He should behind him so Hamilton could avoid of this front runners breaking test.

[hobbes]

Originally posted by pullings
For Rosberg ok its fair because he saw what happend in front.

But for Hamilton is very unfair. He had no space, no room to stop because it was too close to car in front of him.
They stoped together when they didnt. I think Raikonen shouldnt move head a head with Kubica. He should behind him so Hamilton could avoid of this front runners breaking test.

I think Kimi should have stayed in the pits and wait for Hamilton to pass him

[eldougo]

Originally posted by pullings
For Rosberg ok its fair because he saw what happend in front.

But for Hamilton is very unfair. He had no space, no room to stop because it was too close to car in front of him.
They stoped together when they didnt. I think Raikonen shouldnt move head a head with Kubica. He should behind him so Hamilton could avoid of this front runners breaking test.

[kayemod]

Originally posted by pullings
For Rosberg ok its fair because he saw what happend in front.

But for Hamilton is very unfair. He had no space, no room to stop because it was too close to car in front of him.
They stoped together when they didnt. I think Raikonen shouldnt move head a head with Kubica. He should behind him so Hamilton could avoid of this front runners breaking test.

Post of the year! (So far)

You gotta love this place.

[Youichi]

Originally posted by Kemmel
Last year Massa got black flaged for missing the red light. Lewis gets a 10 grid drop for missing the red light and taking out Kimi. He should have all points from france taken away

But this penalty is already harsher than Masss last year.

Massa: Black flagged=DNF + next race nothing.

Hamilton: DNF + next race 10 place grid demotion.

So Massa ignores the red light and get a DNF, Hamilton ignores the redlight, and he gets a DNF and a 10 place demotion.

The penalty seems fair to be, as does Rosbergs.

[Perigee]

Originally posted by pullings
For Rosberg ok its fair because he saw what happend in front.

But for Hamilton is very unfair. He had no space, no room to stop because it was too close to car in front of him.
They stoped together when they didnt. I think Raikonen shouldnt move head a head with Kubica. He should behind him so Hamilton could avoid of this front runners breaking test.

You're pullings our legs, right?

[Spunout]

Originally posted by Youichi


But this penalty is already harsher than Masss last year.

Massa: Black flagged=DNF + next race nothing.

Hamilton: DNF + next race 10 place grid demotion.

Very weird logic, I have to say


Massa: Black flagged=DNF + next race nothing.

Hamilton: next race 10 place grid demotion.


Hamilton had already caused his own DNF by wrecking the car. The DNF wasn´t part of the penalty, given by stewards/FIA. That is completely different from case Massa.

[Pingguest]

Hamilton is penalished twice effectively. In a normal situation he would had drive through red, resulting in a black flag and zero points. Yesterday he made the same mistake, but drove into Raikkonen's back. This resulted in zero points as well. But now Hamilton is dropped ten places on the French Grand Prix, resulting in zero points for yesterday's Canadian Grand Prix and a very likely point reduction for the French Grand Prix. That's unfair.

Besides the penalty is inconsistent. Raikkonen didn't receive a penalty, while both Hamilton yesterday and Sato in Belgium 2005 did so for the same sort of mistake.

[TailG]

Originally posted by Pingguest
Besides the penalty is inconsistent. Raikkonen didn't receive a penalty, while both Hamilton yesterday and Sato in Belgium 2005 did so for the same sort of mistake.

Too bad that those incidents are not of the same sort, not even close.

[F575 GTC]

Originally posted by Pingguest
Besides the penalty is inconsistent. Raikkonen didn't receive a penalty, while both Hamilton yesterday and Sato in Belgium 2005 did so for the same sort of mistake.

Well Sato just drove into the back of Michael, he was zig-zagging down the road like Kimi was, but your still trying to compare two accidents that are totally differant! NO car should hit another in the pitlane full-stop, but to drive into one that is parked has earnt a penality and rightly so - regardless of it being Hamilton or Alonso or Sutil or anybody! If you hit a parked car and ignore a flashing red light that two others spotted, as well as the cars stopping and supposedly your team telling you that there's a red light at the end....you deserve a penalty!

[Deeq]

IF people want to compare this incident a similar Monaco - non penalty - incident then ...How about 2004 MS vs JPM behind the safety car.

Penalty fair.

[ensign14]

Originally posted by Pingguest
Hamilton is penalished twice effectively.

Three times. He lost the lead because of Sutil's car.

[F575 GTC]

Originally posted by Deeq
IF people want to compare this incident a similar Monaco - non penalty - incident then ...How about 2004 MS vs JPM behind the safety car.

Penalty fair.

The only reason people are mentioning the Monaco incident is because it's Kimi involved with it and because he's driving a red car. Had it been Lewis sliding and tagging Sutil, you could put money on there not being any comparisons what-so-ever.

[awake27]

Fair penalty... maybe 5-places more fair.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by ensign14

Three times. He lost the lead because of Sutil's car.

Hmm...I missed the other two penalties:

As a penalty for ignoring RED LIGHT and crashing KR out,

1) The stewards order Sutil to DNF, so that Hamilton loses his lead

2) The stewards use remote control to steer Hamilton into KR´s car

Something doesn´t add up here

[andy-i]

Its fair, the 2 cars side by side excuse is utter bolloxs as is comparison with the unfortunate Monaco incident which happened on track in green flag conditions.

Kimi, Kubica and Alonso all stopped. Lewis and Nico went roaring in like a pair of boy racers!

Lewis should just write it off as a mistake, accept the penalty and move on. One benefit is that he might make a few less statements/predictions which come back to haunt him. Nobody likes a smug smartarse, no matter how talented.

Anything James Allen says about it should be taken in context as the man is clearly an idiot.

It would seem the silent majority has spoken looking at the poll results.

And well done to Kubica for breaking the Mclaren/Ferrari monopoly

Andy.

[saudoso]

It was unfair, both should have caught 1 race ban.

[F575 GTC]

Originally posted by andy-i
Anything James Allen says about it should be taken in context as the man is clearly an idiot.

Basically, if you read what he says, then think the direct opposite; you've usually got the truth!

[hedges]

I'm continually amazed at the poor standard of journalism in F1. Why does no one question Witmarsh when he says something so rediculous, an ontrack accident at 200km in the wet vs a pit incident with red lights and parked cars. That said the interviewers question lead with 'it was a bit severe wasn't it' or something similar. How about just asking what he thought about the penalty rather than putting their own opinion in the question. End rant.

Probably a fair penalty though I understand how you could argue a 1 race ban based on Massas penalty last year.

[valachus]

Originally posted by Perigee

But Massa was black flagged from the Canada race...not from the next race.

I believe the penalty in it's current form is appropriate.

Lenient penalty IMO. JPM was black flagged while leading in 2005. 10 points taken away. Felipe and Fisico were DSQ last year and their point hauls taken away - both were comfortably battling for the podium. And they did not harm another competitor's race.

[J2NH]

Fair.
But I do question the role that the TEAMS play in these pit lane-red light exit incidents. Driver is the captain of his ship but you would think that SOMEONE on the pit wall would be glued to the big picture during safety car periods and be keeping the drivers informed during the stop.

[valachus]

Originally posted by ensign14

Three times. He lost the lead because of Sutil's car.

LOL. It wasn't McLaren's sloppy pitwork, it was Sutil's car that lost Lewis the lead. While in Monaco his win was senna-esque in his proportions, the "show-car" being an act of God made to put things right after Satan put circuit walls where Hami's car should rightfully go. Aren't you embarassed with yourself?

[Owen]

Originally posted by J2NH
Fair.
But I do question the role that the TEAMS play in these pit lane-red light exit incidents. Driver is the captain of his ship but you would think that SOMEONE on the pit wall would be glued to the big picture during safety car periods and be keeping the drivers informed during the stop.

Lewis was informed of the red light apparently.