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#1 Fatgadget

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Posted 13 June 2008 - 16:21

This surely is a low blow by Ford ? Second time they have done it an all. I dont recall Citroen ever pulling this sort of stunt before. :(

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68273

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#2 Al.

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 04:33

The rule putting the leader first on the road for days 2 and 3 came back this year after a few years absense. It was scrapped before because of exactly this.
In previous times cars in the top 6 or so would all back off to generally leave the leader of the day (who was first on the road) to set the benchmark time for them to aim at and miss.
At times it was a farce. One rally as people approached the end of the stage they slowed to a crawl, Sainz actually stopped between the Yellow Board and Red Board at the end waiting for the target time and was actaully DQ'd as you can't stop there.
Another time Makkinen was first on the road, and on the last stage of the day jumped the start. Everyone aimed at the time he set, not realising he was going to be penalised to the tune of 10sec, meaning whoever was 2nd that day took over the lead and became road sweeper.
To change that the WRC introduced a system whereby the top 10 could choose their running position for the following day. That to, was not withoiut contraversey. The drivers had to meet at a certain time at a certain place and one time Coiin McRae turned up 2 minutes late to discover everyone else had picked their slot leaving him with 1st on the road.

Point is that if Loeb were running behind the Fords they'd do the same. It's part of the game.

We may see later this year Sordo, and perhaps one of the Fords (if the other emerges as a clear Championship challenger) sacrifice thenselves to become road sweeper for a team mate.
And, if it starts to get really silly perhaps they will return to the system we had last year which to me seemed to work well.

EDIT: there you go, from 2005 http://www.autosport...le.asp?id=16426

#3 awake27

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 07:25

Loeb had the chance 2 times this year to do the same tactic, he didn't do it. Probably when times will be hard will do it, don't know but :up: him for those 2 times.

Anyway, Ford can do it and they are allowed but moving even the privateer Fords to act supporting role of BP factory team is a low point :down: The funny thing many ppl applauded the move because they want Loeb to lose but OK this is a fact for a few years.

#4 JonC

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 09:51

Hirvonen's a hugely mediocre driver who has never beaten anyone in a straight fight far-and-square (with the exception of Norway last year) that he obviously needs those tactics to do well. The guy has NEVER done anything outstanding in a WRC car - he cheated Colin McRae out of the Subaru drive in 2004 with dirty, underhand, disgusting tactics from his management and then proceeded to completely waste the drive being way off the pace and regularly crashing - this in a year when the Scooby in Solberg's hands was the fastest car by some margin on gravel events.

After being deservedly dropped by Subaru, just because he got a podium on a rally of huge attrition at the end of 2005 he got another chance he didn't deserve with Ford, and for the next two years because of his superior car he could cruise around every rally being way behind Seb and Marcus but in a safe 3rd; and if either/both had problems he could pick up a few wins - of his wins, only Norway came with Seb and Marcus pushing 100% - Australia 06 was won thanks to Marcus rolling on day 1, Japan 07 was a result of both Seb and Marcus retiring and Britain 07 was easy for him as both Seb and Marcus were driving just to finish. And this year Latvala has clearly been the faster of the Ford drivers - Hirvonen is only in contention through doing his usual thing of cruising to an easy podium (with the car he has) and picking up the pieces if Loeb hits trouble.

It's a sad indictment of Ford's faith in his abilities that these tactics have been used - Loeb hasn't resorted to these tactics in the last few events despite usually leading at the end of day 1. Yes it's happened before, but Loeb's magnificent efforts during day 1 to be within 15s of Hirvonen despite running first car on the road have all come to nought. It's one thing for an individual driver to choose to back off to help their road position, but for Ford to have to move all 4 of their cars to give hopeless Hirvonen a chance is a joke.

#5 Kemmel

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:20

There is nothing wrong in using tactics, but it becomes unfair when Ford have 4 cars in its team.
"Stobart Ford" should be called "BP Ford support team"
WRC should bring back the 3 car team rule as Subaru and Ford will both have more than 1 team next year

#6 sKunk

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 10:44

I hope Subaru stuffs them both to be honest. I would love to see Solberg on the top step of the podium again, for there is a man who loves his rallying :)

#7 Mat Rempit

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 11:11

To make it fair,...the top six from the first day should pick the slots of top 10 running positions -

Eg. -
1st driver, can pick anywhere from 1st to 6th on the road
2nd driver, then pick the remaining 5 slots available
3rd driver, then picks the remaining 4 slots available and so on...

With this,...there will not be any farce

#8 awake27

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Posted 14 June 2008 - 13:22

That you are saying Matt was used a few times occasionally in Rally Australia many years ago, from 2003 until 2007 they had the completely reverse starting grid between the WRC cars for Saturday-Sunday according to the previous day standings. 100% fair everybody was going flat-out, no need for tactics.

But this year they changed back to the old style to keep the rally more open = translation: to prevent Loeb win with ease. I'm afraid he and Citroen have no choice but to use the tactics in future situations. Is a chain reaction.

#9 Panch

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 11:23

Results:

1. Mikko Hirvonen Ford 4.42.07,1
2. J-M. Latvala Ford +7,9
3. Sebastien Loeb Citroen +25,7
4. Daniel Sordo Citroen +2.25,6
5. Henning Solberg Ford +2.33,7
6. Petter Solberg Subaru +2.48,2
7. Matthew Wilson Ford +4.24,2
8. Conrad Rautenbach Citroen +7.46,7



Hirvonen now leads the championship by 3 points.

#10 Fatgadget

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 12:32

Conrad Rautenbach! :eek:

Is this a first for a Zimbabwean scoring points in the WRC?

#11 Atreiu

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 12:40

Very low tactics.
Like sending out backmarkers to block some pilots no matter what...

I really hope Loeb stomps them from now on.

#12 Pikku Pakkanen

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 17:49

Originally posted by Atreiu
Very low tactics.
Like sending out backmarkers to block some pilots no matter what...

I really hope Loeb stomps them from now on.


Blame the FIA. I guess this is what they wanted when they changed the rules.

Actually, going slowly and letting others lead is quite normal in bikes, cycling, running, skiing etc. Nobody was blocking anybody.

#13 rye&ginger

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 17:57

What if the leader should get to choose their spot maybe in the top 10 start times or something, and then the 2nd place must go first. This would reward the leader no and get rid of this tactic.

What tactics result of this though if any?

#14 J

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 19:08

I´ve often wondered if FIA wants rallying to suck...

-J

#15 Fatgadget

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 19:10

Originally posted by Pikku Pakkanen


Blame the FIA. I guess this is what they wanted when they changed the rules.

Actually, going slowly and letting others lead is quite normal in bikes, cycling, running, skiing etc. Nobody was blocking anybody.


Why not go all the way and deem the slowest the winner? :rolleyes:

Your analogy with athletes and bikers is rubbish. The reason why Ford deployed these tactics is such that the first car on a gravel stage cleans it up. You dont see these sort of shenanigans on tarmac stages do you?

#16 jimm

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 19:19

Just another example of bad moves by the FIA to ruin racing since Mosley has been in charge. When Max took over there were many more factory teams, car configurations and divers entry list. It has been reduced to the same state as sports cars with only a few manufacturers willing to participate. You can't even watch it in the US as the popularity has fallen so much and the FIA still wants a premium payment to watch.

#17 Pikku Pakkanen

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 19:56

Originally posted by Fatgadget
Your analogy with athletes and bikers is rubbish. The reason why Ford deployed these tactics is such that the first car on a gravel stage cleans it up. You dont see these sort of shenanigans on tarmac stages do you?


Well, in many sports leading is harder than following. That's why tactics are used.

I agree that rallying shouldn't be like this. But rallying is not what it used to be anyway. :(

#18 Mat Rempit

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 20:16

I don't understand what the fuss is all about...

Well,...thats tactics,...whats wrong with that? Its interesting, don't understand all the complains.

Well, if willingly,...Loeb , Mirko and maybe another 2 drivers can slow down all the want to,....resulting in the 4th place driver leading,....or try to pull out huge lead in day one?

This is interesting and will infact make the times very close going into day 2.

Its all about tactics and strategy, totally nothing wrong with it...Loeb is foolish not to employ this tactics,...or rather he is over-confident of his own ability..

#19 Fatgadget

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 20:40

Originally posted by Mat Rempit
I don't understand what the fuss is all about...

Well,...thats tactics,...whats wrong with that? Its interesting, don't understand all the complains.

Well, if willingly,...Loeb , Mirko and maybe another 2 drivers can slow down all the want to,....resulting in the 4th place driver leading,....or try to pull out huge lead in day one?

This is interesting and will infact make the times very close going into day 2.

Its all about tactics and strategy, totally nothing wrong with it...Loeb is foolish not to employ this tactics,...or rather he is over-confident of his own ability..


Oh I see.

So what then should Citroen also slow down and then Subaru also slow down in a demented way of avoiding to be first on the road?

Can you see where this will end up or you don't really care?

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#20 TT6

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 20:45

You make a rule and you'll end up with tactics that takes benefit of the rule. Simple as that. Blame FIA, not Ford, for trying to make races "more intresting" to handicap whoever is in the lead.

The one in lead should be able to choose where he starts.

#21 Pikku Pakkanen

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 21:19

Originally posted by Fatgadget
So what then should Citroen also slow down and then Subaru also slow down in a demented way of avoiding to be first on the road?

Can you see where this will end up or you don't really care?




:cool:

#22 rye&ginger

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 21:22

Or send out 4-5 parade cars to clean up each stage before hand? Top 5 random start order? there must be some better way.

#23 Fatgadget

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 21:39

Originally posted by Pikku Pakkanen




:cool:


:lol: :lol: :D

#24 aditya-now

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 21:50

Originally posted by Pikku Pakkanen




:cool:



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

You are right, Pikku!

#25 Panch

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 23:02

Originally posted by rye&ginger
Or send out 4-5 parade cars to clean up each stage before hand? Top 5 random start order? there must be some better way.



Why don´t they send those cars first who has DNF and are still continuing with the superrally rule :confused:

That would be the best way IMO.

#26 Atreiu

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 23:11

Originally posted by Pikku Pakkanen


Blame the FIA. I guess this is what they wanted when they changed the rules.

Actually, going slowly and letting others lead is quite normal in bikes, cycling, running, skiing etc. Nobody was blocking anybody.


Obviously, I was just mentioning another example of possible and unethical tactics.

#27 rye&ginger

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Posted 15 June 2008 - 23:52

Originally posted by Panch



Why don´t they send those cars first who has DNF and are still continuing with the superrally rule :confused:

That would be the best way IMO.


hey thats a good idea. Problem might be the quicker drivers catching up to them though.

#28 pingu666

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 09:36

they still using 3minutes between cars or less now?

#29 Mat Rempit

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:21

Originally posted by Fatgadget


Oh I see.

So what then should Citroen also slow down and then Subaru also slow down in a demented way of avoiding to be first on the road?

Can you see where this will end up or you don't really care?


Its all tactics and strategy, every cars are welcomed to do that if they want,......but not everyone will chose to do that....maybe a few of the drivers instead will go flat out on day1 to build huge lead

Seriously,...this is a clever and interesting strategy

And Citreon's boss was so unsporting and sour that he criticized Malcom Wilson.... :down: :down: :down:


"I think for us what happened is good news, because that means Seb and Citroen are very difficult to beat and they [Ford] need to use special things," said Quesnel. "I don't think it is fair play.

Arrogant... :down: :down: and sour

#30 mursuka80

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:34

Originally posted by Pikku Pakkanen




:cool:


What a **** is going on in that video? :rotfl:

#31 mclarensmps

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:53

Originally posted by sKunk
I hope Subaru stuffs them both to be honest. I would love to see Solberg on the top step of the podium again, for there is a man who loves his rallying :)


I love Solberg but I've lost my allegiance with Subaru ever since the Toyota partnership :

#32 jimm

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 18:27

Originally posted by Mat Rempit


Its all tactics and strategy, every cars are welcomed to do that if they want,......but not everyone will chose to do that....maybe a few of the drivers instead will go flat out on day1 to build huge lead

Seriously,...this is a clever and interesting strategy

And Citreon's boss was so unsporting and sour that he criticized Malcom Wilson.... :down: :down: :down:


"I think for us what happened is good news, because that means Seb and Citroen are very difficult to beat and they [Ford] need to use special things," said Quesnel. "I don't think it is fair play.

Arrogant... :down: :down: and sour


it is rediculous and not racing. Citreon's comments are ment to push Ford to actually competing on speed instead of these BS tactics. It is a stupid rule and should be done away with.

#33 Al.

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 21:34

Originally posted by Mat Rempit
I don't understand what the fuss is all about...

Well,...thats tactics,...whats wrong with that? Its interesting, don't understand all the complains.

Well, if willingly,...Loeb , Mirko and maybe another 2 drivers can slow down all the want to,....resulting in the 4th place driver leading,....or try to pull out huge lead in day one?

This is interesting and will infact make the times very close going into day 2.

Its all about tactics and strategy, totally nothing wrong with it...Loeb is foolish not to employ this tactics,...or rather he is over-confident of his own ability..


The point is that the Championship leader is first on the road on day one and thus sets their time first, everyone behind gets to aim at that time. There is nothing the 1st guy on day 1 can do, if he goes slower, the next guy goes even slower.
However for the next rally Hirvonen will be 1st on the road for day 1, although it's Finland so i don't think it will be an issue for him.

#34 jimm

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Posted 16 June 2008 - 21:55

Originally posted by Al.


The point is that the Championship leader is first on the road on day one and thus sets their time first, everyone behind gets to aim at that time. There is nothing the 1st guy on day 1 can do, if he goes slower, the next guy goes even slower.
However for the next rally Hirvonen will be 1st on the road for day 1, although it's Finland so i don't think it will be an issue for him.


any "race" were the goal is to win by the slowest speed instead of the fastest is CRAP.

#35 Mat Rempit

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 13:44

Citreon boss is sour and a hypocrite.

Daniel Sordo had been guilty of employing such tactics too..

pot calling kettle black. :down: