Jump to content


Photo

Should weight penalties be given higher up the grid?


  • Please log in to reply
42 replies to this topic

Poll: Should weight penalties be given higher up the grid? (96 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Yes (5 votes [5.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.21%

  2. No (91 votes [94.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 94.79%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 D.M.N.

D.M.N.
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,204 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 16 June 2008 - 14:13

I was watching WTCC race two yesterday (http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68353); the first time I've watched a WTCC race in a while as there was sod all else on. Apart from the fact that a few were former F1 drivers, the race was pretty damn exciting, mainly due to drivers such as James Thompson dropping down the order due to weight penalties. It was bloody good watching him defend, even if he did defend a little OTT at times. :p

It's partially weight penalties that make WTCC so exciting. I think they should trial this out in F1, hell, it may work it may not, maybe have something like if you finish in the following positions, you get the following penalty:

1st >> 20kg added
2nd >> 17kg added
3rd >> 14kg added
4th >> 11kg added
5th >> 8kg added
6th >> 5kg added
7th >> 3kg added
8th >> 1kg added

I don't know about you, but IMO, this would make racing a lot more exciting. I would support the idea of weight penalties in F1. :up:

Advertisement

#2 kar

kar
  • Member

  • 10,307 posts
  • Joined: January 06

Posted 16 June 2008 - 14:17

Ferrari threatened to pull out of F1 after Mosley and Ecclestone threatened this in reaction to the dominance of the F2002.

I absolutely, in no way whatsoever, support the castration of F1's sporting pedigree by introducing ballast penalties. They can mess around with the regs as much as they like but when they go so far as to cripple a team because they are successful what you have is definitely no longer a sporting competition.

#3 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,738 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 14:19

Hmmm, just creates an artificial leveling measure....

Reverse grids would be better....

#4 arthurive

arthurive
  • Member

  • 767 posts
  • Joined: March 02

Posted 16 June 2008 - 14:40

It all depends on what you want/expect out of a racing series.
In my opinion, F1 has already gone too far in "levelling the competition"

If you want a racing series that is solely based on entertainment, then weight penalties, would be
acceptable, as would rev limiters, testing restrictions, spec parts, spec engines, spec chassis'

I'm of the thinking that F1 rules should be extremely simple:
"Here's a box. The car you build must fit within that box. The engine size is limited to X and the
overall weight must minimally be Y. It must be open wheel.
That's all folks.

#5 mursuka80

mursuka80
  • Member

  • 5,106 posts
  • Joined: March 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 14:51

Originally posted by D.M.N.
I was watching WTCC race two yesterday (http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68353); the first time I've watched a WTCC race in a while as there was sod all else on. Apart from the fact that a few were former F1 drivers, the race was pretty damn exciting, mainly due to drivers such as James Thompson dropping down the order due to weight penalties. It was bloody good watching him defend, even if he did defend a little OTT at times. :p

It's partially weight penalties that make WTCC so exciting. I think they should trial this out in F1, hell, it may work it may not, maybe have something like if you finish in the following positions, you get the following penalty:

1st >> 20kg added
2nd >> 17kg added
3rd >> 14kg added
4th >> 11kg added
5th >> 8kg added
6th >> 5kg added
7th >> 3kg added
8th >> 1kg added

I don't know about you, but IMO, this would make racing a lot more exciting. I would support the idea of weight penalties in F1. :up:


Yes! and lets start running with diesel engines :rolleyes:

#6 united

united
  • Member

  • 814 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 16 June 2008 - 14:56

WTCC is extremely boring and unavailing series with Daewoo, crazy-styled SEAT and even VAZ "From-USSR-with-love" Desyatka. So weight penalties is the only way to keep this show at a decent level. I watch WTCC occasionally to cheer for some BMWs and frankly saying DTM is way better.

So please keep these penalties away from F1.

#7 tifosi

tifosi
  • Member

  • 13,283 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 16 June 2008 - 14:57

I couldn't vote in th epoll. Could a mod please put in an appropriate option:

This is the most idiotic suggestion this season.



Sorry D.M.N. but penalizing success in a competitve series is insane. It's fine for feeder/development series.

#8 ex Rhodie racer

ex Rhodie racer
  • Member

  • 3,002 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 15:10

Originally posted by kar
Ferrari threatened to pull out of F1 after Mosley and Ecclestone threatened this in reaction to the dominance of the F2002.

I absolutely, in no way whatsoever, support the castration of F1's sporting pedigree by introducing ballast penalties. They can mess around with the regs as much as they like but when they go so far as to cripple a team because they are successful what you have is definitely no longer a sporting competition.

I absolutely agree. If motorracing penalises innovation and success, it loses it´s purpose. What incentive would there be for the slow guys to make up the gap? They would simply wait until the rest of the field was weighted down and then pick up their share of wins. It´s not an idea worth serious consideration IMO.

#9 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,375 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 16 June 2008 - 15:17

Why should the teams doing the best job be penalised?

#10 F1Fanatic.co.uk

F1Fanatic.co.uk
  • Member

  • 1,725 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 16 June 2008 - 15:37

Absolutely not.

Once you realise how huge an impact ballasting has in the WTCC it doesn't seem exciting at all. The races are totally artificial. The performance of a car in a given event owes too little to how competent the driver and team are, and far more to what weight it has to carry.

I want to see the best drivers racing at the front not stuck in the middle of the pack because of silly ballasting rules.

#11 F1 Tor.

F1 Tor.
  • Member

  • 2,832 posts
  • Joined: August 04

Posted 16 June 2008 - 15:38

I never really understood this suggestion. We're going to have a company of, say, 600-800 people work flat out for a year to make the best product possible in order to win and then when they do we're going to penalise them with added weight. I can understand why you'd want to do it, but I absolutely disagree with it. :wave:

#12 Hippo

Hippo
  • Member

  • 2,378 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 16 June 2008 - 15:48

In touring car racing weight penalties are needed to somewhat level the competition. This is because the cars being used are actually normal street cars. Obviously there are fairly big differences between the competitors. Otherwise car manufacturers had big trouble to sell their cars.;)

In F1 everyone builds their cars exclusively for this one championship. Who does best wins it. That's the whole point about it. WCC would be obsolete if there was a weight penalty.

#13 yr

yr
  • Member

  • 5,969 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 16 June 2008 - 15:53

Uh, yeah, lets make F1 interesting, shall we? Weight penalties for winners, tie one hand back for best drivers, use a lottery to make grid, drivers have to swich to a different team in every race so that all drivers drive all cars during the season, give randomly points in every race; in one race you get 25 points from winning - in next you get 5 points for winning, reversed grid every now and then (without telling in advance which races will have it) so if you qualify on pole you find yourself in last, give 10 points for best joke in press conference....

We are in for very exciting racing :rolleyes:

#14 Ferrim

Ferrim
  • Member

  • 818 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 15:56

F1 Press Conference, circa 2015

Q: Ok Lewis, that was a stunning performance from you: from P10 to the win. In fact you were leading the race after 15 laps, how did that come?

LH: Yeah, it was a good race for us. I'm happy for the team and the guys and everyone who has worked so hard... [Note: goes on for a couple minutes] it was actually easy, because the guys in front were heavier than me, the handicap you know, and so they had to brake early, and had worse traction out the corners too, and so I could get pass them easily. But nevertheless it was hard because we thought the engine wouldn't make it, but fortunately it did, so I'm very happy for the team and the guys and... [another couple of minutes]

Q: And that also was your 41st GP win, which puts you level with your idol, the late Ayrton Senna...

LH: Sure, this is a dream come true for me... I remember when I watched the races on TV and wanted to race with him, and all the other drivers, all were my idols and now I'm racing with them and... [couple of minutes again]

Q: Ok, let's go with Fernando. That's a fantastic result for you and the Renault team, actually your first podium in a couple years, when you came back after your season at Ferrari, so you must be pretty happy.

FA: Well, it's a gud risult for as. As we are not faigting for de champion-chip, we coud take some risks but I'm not completely jappy becos I told the team the correct decision to take was tu finish ileventh at the privious race, so that we coud race here wizjaut any jandicap. But we finiched seventh there, and den we had to carry some extra weight, and so I think I've lost anoder win becos of de team.

Q: But you also had an off-track moment on lap 14, which handed Lewis the lead...

FA: Yeah, I made a misteic there, but dat was becos I was puching very hard, you know the car jas a lot of problems, it doesn't turn, doesn't traction, generally jas no grip and our niu enyine is not de best, so I jave to compensate for that and sometimes I meic misteics.

Q: And finally we come to David Coulthard: what a fantastic result, David! What are your feelings?

DC: I'm delighted, for sure! It was a very good race. As I had crashed out the previous five races, I was really needing this kind of result by now. You don't feel happy when your team mate has 50 points and you have one, so it's a fantastic result. The previous retirements were actually good because I could race 20 kilos underweight whereas other people were 20 kilos overweight, which made my race a lot easier.

Q: You know you are the oldest guy since Brabham to take a podium, at 44 years? That's a fantastic achievement...

DC: Didn't know that but yeah, it's a good feeling. I feel younger than ever and... [something breaks] wait a moment please... [to his physiotherapist] Yeah, it's that ****ing arthritis again! [he recovers] Yeah, as I was saying, it's a good feeling and I hope this helps my negotiations with Red Bull for extending my contract. I have a feeling that next year will be my year!

#15 OfficeLinebacker

OfficeLinebacker
  • Member

  • 14,019 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 16:19

In all the major USA sports leagues winners are penalized. (Or rather, the losers are rewarded).

#16 D.M.N.

D.M.N.
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,204 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 16 June 2008 - 16:22

Originally posted by Ferrim
F1 Press Conference, circa 2015

Q: Ok Lewis, that was a stunning performance from you: from P10 to the win. In fact you were leading the race after 15 laps, how did that come?

LH: Yeah, it was a good race for us. I'm happy for the team and the guys and everyone who has worked so hard... [Note: goes on for a couple minutes] it was actually easy, because the guys in front were heavier than me, the handicap you know, and so they had to brake early, and had worse traction out the corners too, and so I could get pass them easily. But nevertheless it was hard because we thought the engine wouldn't make it, but fortunately it did, so I'm very happy for the team and the guys and... [another couple of minutes]

Q: And that also was your 41st GP win, which puts you level with your idol, the late Ayrton Senna...

LH: Sure, this is a dream come true for me... I remember when I watched the races on TV and wanted to race with him, and all the other drivers, all were my idols and now I'm racing with them and... [couple of minutes again]

Q: Ok, let's go with Fernando. That's a fantastic result for you and the Renault team, actually your first podium in a couple years, when you came back after your season at Ferrari, so you must be pretty happy.

FA: Well, it's a gud risult for as. As we are not faigting for de champion-chip, we coud take some risks but I'm not completely jappy becos I told the team the correct decision to take was tu finish ileventh at the privious race, so that we coud race here wizjaut any jandicap. But we finiched seventh there, and den we had to carry some extra weight, and so I think I've lost anoder win becos of de team.

Q: But you also had an off-track moment on lap 14, which handed Lewis the lead...

FA: Yeah, I made a misteic there, but dat was becos I was puching very hard, you know the car jas a lot of problems, it doesn't turn, doesn't traction, generally jas no grip and our niu enyine is not de best, so I jave to compensate for that and sometimes I meic misteics.

Q: And finally we come to David Coulthard: what a fantastic result, David! What are your feelings?

DC: I'm delighted, for sure! It was a very good race. As I had crashed out the previous five races, I was really needing this kind of result by now. You don't feel happy when your team mate has 50 points and you have one, so it's a fantastic result. The previous retirements were actually good because I could race 20 kilos underweight whereas other people were 20 kilos overweight, which made my race a lot easier.

Q: You know you are the oldest guy since Brabham to take a podium, at 44 years? That's a fantastic achievement...

DC: Didn't now that but yeah, it's a good feeling. I feel younger than ever and... [something breaks] wait a moment please... [to his physiotherapist] Yeah, it's that ****ing arthritis again! [he recovers] Yeah, as I was saying, it's a good feeling and I hope this helps my negotiations with Red Bull for extending my contract. I have a feeling that next year will be my year!


:rotfl:

#17 yr

yr
  • Member

  • 5,969 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 16 June 2008 - 16:53

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
In all the major USA sports leagues winners are penalized. (Or rather, the losers are rewarded).


And that is the very reason most USA sports sucks like there is no tomorrow. I remember when I once watched some stupid comedy made in USA and they had some laugh on the expense of europian football it was like this: two guys - one from europe and one from (fanfares now, please) USA. When the game ended, few people came in and asked ´whats up´ and guy from USA answerd "hey, we just watched a very exited game, it ended 0-0 but you should have seen it" :rolleyes:

In America, you need to score all the time if you want your sport to interest viewrs - basket ball is very good example of a sport that goes well within Americans taste, one or the other team will for sure score within next ten seconds. Nascar is perfect example of what American audience wants; artificial competition in the expence of real competition as long as there are safety cars that keeps drivers in short distance to each others.

#18 tifosi

tifosi
  • Member

  • 13,283 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:14

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
In all the major USA sports leagues winners are penalized. (Or rather, the losers are rewarded).


So what is the weight penalty applied to the leader in NASCAR? Or if you assume NASCAR is not major how much weight is added to Scott Dixon''s car after his IndyCar win at the Indy 500?

Or are you comparing apples and oranges?

I assume you are talking about the draft, or is it your assertion that the Giants must throw and kick a heavier ball next year?

#19 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 9,891 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:30

Absolutely not.
The bare thought is sickening.

Advertisement

#20 yr

yr
  • Member

  • 5,969 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:30

Originally posted by tifosi


So what is the weight penalty applied to the leader in NASCAR?


No weight penalty, just yellow flags and safety cars as many times as it is needed to keep competition tight and people interested. Never mind if flags/SC were needed or not for sporting reasons. :rolleyes:

#21 OfficeLinebacker

OfficeLinebacker
  • Member

  • 14,019 posts
  • Joined: December 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:32

Originally posted by tifosi

I assume you are talking about the draft


You are correct, sir.

#22 Umpire

Umpire
  • Member

  • 787 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:40

No way on earth.

#23 ATM_Andy

ATM_Andy
  • Member

  • 1,482 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:45

It was suggested a few years ago, the idea did not go down too well with many.

#24 tifosi

tifosi
  • Member

  • 13,283 posts
  • Joined: June 99

Posted 16 June 2008 - 17:54

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker


You are correct, sir.


So can you pleased tell us all the major USA sports leagues in which winners are disadvantaged or losers are advantaged DURING the season?

#25 Rob G

Rob G
  • Member

  • 10,898 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 June 2008 - 18:00

Originally posted by yr
In America, you need to score all the time if you want your sport to interest viewrs

You've never seen a baseball game, have you?

And re the original post, NO weight penalties, and NO reverse grids. Not only is it artificial, but it might give teams a reason to sandbag. What's so exciting about watching frontrunners putter around in a battle to see who can fall back to 8th?

#26 mclarensmps

mclarensmps
  • Member

  • 3,782 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 16 June 2008 - 18:18

Reverse grids would only work if every race started in the reverse order of the previous season's championship order.

This would eliminate qualifying but there is a solution for that as well.

Hold qualifying for an extra batch of points awarded to the top 3 positions. 3-2-1. The qually system would be the old system of 12 laps in an hour, no fuel load nonsense, unlimited tyres.

This system would allow us to keep the same points system 10-8-6-5-4-3-2-1.

The fastest driver + winner would have 13 points, second spot + second place would have 10 points, third spot + third place is 7 points.

#27 Pingguest

Pingguest
  • Member

  • 405 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 16 June 2008 - 18:35

I don't see why we should introduce this sort of artificial rules. The problem is that close racing is virtually impossble due to the lack of mechanical grip and current downforce levels and that drivers are not to do a overtaking attempt because of the existence of pitstops and the point scoring system.

Any artificial rules, such as the post-qualifying parc fermé, mandatory compound switch, reverse grids and weight penalties, wont improve the racing. In fact, it will only make the racing even worse and take away all purity from the sports.

If you really want races to be decided by artificial rules and luck, why don't you watch the American racing series? They don't like purity eighter.

#28 yr

yr
  • Member

  • 5,969 posts
  • Joined: December 98

Posted 16 June 2008 - 18:51

Originally posted by Rob G

You've never seen a baseball game, have you?


No I haven´t. I take it takes a 2 minutes at most to score there then?

#29 ex Rhodie racer

ex Rhodie racer
  • Member

  • 3,002 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 16 June 2008 - 19:59

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
In all the major USA sports leagues winners are penalized. (Or rather, the losers are rewarded).

Shows what a load of shite US sports have become.

#30 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 8,317 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 16 June 2008 - 21:11

I think weight penalties are fine in spec series but not where completely independant teams are involved. Its just not fair.

#31 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 27,375 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 16 June 2008 - 21:22

Originally posted by Tenmantaylor
I think weight penalties are fine in spec series but not where completely independant teams are involved. Its just not fair.


It's no fairer in a spec series.

#32 Imperial

Imperial
  • Member

  • 2,715 posts
  • Joined: February 02

Posted 16 June 2008 - 21:50

Good to see it's a resounding on on this poll.

The last thing F1 needs is more politics and that's all that would happen with weight penalties. it ****ing ruins tin-tops when week after week they're arguing about whether car X should have more weight cos it's got a bigger engine blah blah.

Just curious by the way, is there actually any single-seater series currently using weight-penalty regs?

Has there ever been a single-seater series use them?

#33 Mauseri

Mauseri
  • Member

  • 7,519 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 16 June 2008 - 22:18

Of course not.

The rules need to be changed so that who do the best job win the races. Any artificial measure to keep it mixed must be removed. Maybe this way we could see epic battles again.

I'm referring to qualifying with race fuel most of all. It ruins the races and gives driver less chance to fight.

#34 Rob G

Rob G
  • Member

  • 10,898 posts
  • Joined: April 01

Posted 16 June 2008 - 22:37

Originally posted by yr


No I haven´t. I take it takes a 2 minutes at most to score there then?

No, there are plenty of games where you may see only 1 or 2 runs scored the entire game, and some of those games go 3 or 4 hours. So next time you make sweeping generalizations, make sure you know what you're talking about.

#35 FonzCam

FonzCam
  • Member

  • 762 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 16 June 2008 - 23:04

The WTCC use weight penalties to create the close racing of a one make series with the commercial demands of the companies involved so they can run their production cars against each other yet keep them roughly equal in performance. IIRC WTCC even go as far giving specific penalties to models of car based on their performance regardless of results. NASCAR take a different route and make teams use standard cars with stickers to make them look like their road going counterparts.

F1 has no need to do this because the cars are custom designed and build for racing, if we wanted the cars to be more equal then there are easier ways to standardise performance.

#36 united

united
  • Member

  • 814 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 17 June 2008 - 07:23

Originally posted by FonzCam
commercial demands


Daewoo-Chevrolet and Lada have not got any commercial demands, the correlation between their success in WTCC and sales in developing markets is nonexistent. Yet Audi can potentially offset its motorsport budget by thrashing C-Klasse (A4's main competitor) on a weekly basis (and vice-versa, of course).

But in WTCC weight ballast serves only one purpose - to artificially spice up a sordid show.

#37 Peter

Peter
  • Member

  • 1,392 posts
  • Joined: March 99

Posted 17 June 2008 - 07:58

No point calling this an idiot post because it is just the kind of thing that the FIA might consider (again). After all, the "sport of kings", horse racing, has done it for centuries.

I do NOT want to see it happen in F1. It would be better to just draw lots for who starts where on the grid. Now the cars are all quite close, performance wise, lets get back to real racing with some way of creating better overtaking opportunities...

#38 TT6

TT6
  • Member

  • 3,561 posts
  • Joined: September 01

Posted 17 June 2008 - 08:31

Originally posted by micra_k10
The rules need to be changed so that who do the best job win the races. Any artificial measure to keep it mixed must be removed. Maybe this way we could see epic battles again.

I'm referring to qualifying with race fuel most of all. It ruins the races and gives driver less chance to fight.


But that's completely different situation. Qualifying with race fule is not artificial, it's just a tactical possibility for teams to choose without any emphasis on punishing those who do good work.

Qualifying is just a way to make faster cars in the front and with race fuel qualifying the faster cars in quali should be faster in the beginning of the race also. With empty tank quali fast car may be fuelled extremely heavy making slower cars in front. That's artificial.

#39 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 8,947 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 June 2008 - 08:58

The FIA already penalises/disqualifies/bans teams that are prooving to competitive...

Advertisement

#40 DVtriple6

DVtriple6
  • Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 17 June 2008 - 15:08

No... just no... It's not fair in WTCC and it is defiantly not fair in F1. It's getting penalty for being good. It's the weaker teams that should get penalty for sucking, maybe then will they actually improve instead of just waiting for the good team to be so heavy that they can't even compete... :rolleyes:

#41 primer

primer
  • Member

  • 6,664 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 17 June 2008 - 15:29

Presently, 82 have voted No. Only 5 yes.

I will assume that five people either voted in haste or have poor mouse control skills. ;)

#42 DVtriple6

DVtriple6
  • Member

  • 71 posts
  • Joined: June 08

Posted 17 June 2008 - 15:49

Originally posted by primer
Presently, 82 have voted No. Only 5 yes.

I will assume that five people either voted in haste or have poor mouse control skills. ;)

:rotfl:

#43 FonzCam

FonzCam
  • Member

  • 762 posts
  • Joined: February 05

Posted 17 June 2008 - 16:05

Originally posted by united


Daewoo-Chevrolet and Lada have not got any commercial demands, the correlation between their success in WTCC and sales in developing markets is nonexistent. Yet Audi can potentially offset its motorsport budget by thrashing C-Klasse (A4's main competitor) on a weekly basis (and vice-versa, of course).

But in WTCC weight ballast serves only one purpose - to artificially spice up a sordid show.


The commercial demand is that they get to race using a version of one of their production cars. Without ballast it would not be a viable marketing/PR exercise (or they would have to enter a single make series with 'branded' cars like in NASCAR).