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Will the introduction of KERS fail?


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#1 Pingguest

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:24

KERS will be legalised in 2009. The introduction of KERS will revolutionise Formula 1 according to Führer Max Mosley. But Ross Brawn is not that positive it seems.
http://www.f1fanatic...-enough-for-f1/

The technical restrictions alreay put on this 'revolutionairy' technology may make teams to decide not to use KERS as there are too much disadvantages. The 2009 KERS systems are restricted to produce a 80bhp 'boost'. It must be mentioned that Mario Illen created a 45bhp producing KERS system back in 1999! But that system was banned by the 'revolutionist' Max Mosley. No wonder that Toyota described the 2009 KERS systems as primitive.

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#2 DOHC

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:53

According to well informed sources, Toyota has a system that is technically much more advanced.

#3 undersquare

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:54

Originally posted by Pingguest
KERS will be legalised in 2009. The introduction of KERS will revolutionise Formula 1 according to Führer Max Mosley. But Ross Brawn is not that positive it seems.
http://www.f1fanatic...-enough-for-f1/

The technical restrictions alreay put on this 'revolutionairy' technology may make teams to decide not to use KERS as there are too much disadvantages. The 2009 KERS systems are restricted to produce a 80bhp 'boost'. It must be mentioned that Mario Illen created a 45bhp producing KERS system back in 1999! But that system was banned by the 'revolutionist' Max Mosley. No wonder that Toyota described the 2009 KERS systems as primitive.


I don't know what to think of it, TBH. It's a great concept, but very limited in the way it's been done so far. I suppose the limitations mean that there won't be too much difference on track between the good and bad designs - good for the racing, bad for the engineers (again :p ). Perhaps at this early stage it's right to keep the amount of energy low so it doesn't dominate performance of the cars as a whole.

With the amounts being spent by the manufacturers and the marginal weight/benefit issue making low weight the priority, then it looks like it might move the technology along, and having it in F1 will give kers a huge image boost. I'd certainly like kers in my road car, for overtaking.

On track it could be fascinating or artificial, maybe depending on how well they present the information to us about who has how much energy stored, who's using it etc.

#4 undersquare

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 10:59

Another thing is the safety. They've talked about it, but these devices are basically a bomb, either a grenade (flywheel at 50-100,000 rpm) or a lightning strike. Anyone seen recent figure for the supercap voltages? I seem to remember some 10's of kilovolts.

#5 Josta

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:05

I heard of a new concept devised by Ferrari. It uses the force of the wind under acceleration in addition to braking force. It is called the Wind Assisted Natural Kenetic Energy Recovery System.

#6 tidytracks

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:08

Originally posted by Josta
I heard of a new concept devised by Ferrari. It uses the force of the wind under acceleration in addition to braking force. It is called the Wind Assisted Natural Kenetic Energy Recovery System.


:lol: very nicely done

#7 JForce

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:20

Originally posted by undersquare
Another thing is the safety. They've talked about it, but these devices are basically a bomb, either a grenade (flywheel at 50-100,000 rpm) or a lightning strike. Anyone seen recent figure for the supercap voltages? I seem to remember some 10's of kilovolts.


I read somewhere that one team has lost 3 cars in testing already when they hit 88mph and had a technical issues which shot 1.21 gigawats through the car

#8 Pikku Pakkanen

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:27

Originally posted by JForce


I read somewhere that one team has lost 3 cars in testing already when they hit 88mph and had a technical issues which shot 1.21 gigawats through the car


DeLorean coming to F1?

:p

#9 mursuka80

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 11:57

Originally posted by Josta
I heard of a new concept devised by Ferrari. It uses the force of the wind under acceleration in addition to braking force. It is called the Wind Assisted Natural Kenetic Energy Recovery System.


I thought at first that this is real news :lol:

#10 ClubmanGT

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:46

KERS needed to be more impressive. I mean, it could have been introduced as a push-to-pass system initially, but we should be running damn electric cars anyway.

#11 Timstr11

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:49

Originally posted by ClubmanGT
KERS needed to be more impressive. I mean, it could have been introduced as a push-to-pass system initially, but we should be running damn electric cars anyway.

:confused: It is a push-to-pass system.

#12 ClubmanGT

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 12:53

Originally posted by Timstr11
:confused: It is a push-to-pass system.


But it won't be much more than that for a long time. It's pretty weak, apparently.

#13 Andy Donovan

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 13:05

Originally posted by JForce


I read somewhere that one team has lost 3 cars in testing already when they hit 88mph and had a technical issues which shot 1.21 gigawats through the car

I've just had a look at the 1956 season review, apparently Jenson Button was world champion that year :drunk:

#14 tidytracks

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 14:09

Wasn't Bernie something to do with DeLorean?

#15 Clatter

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 14:16

Originally posted by Timstr11
:confused: It is a push-to-pass system.


No it isnt. The rev limit stops it being of use for that.

#16 DOHC

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 14:52

Who says you can't lift off slightly and engage the extra 80 hp momentarily?

#17 Josta

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 14:55

Originally posted by DOHC
Who says you can't lift off slightly and engage the extra 80 hp momentarily?


Why would you want to do that? Maybe use it just after a gear change, but you would lose time if you lift.

#18 Timstr11

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 15:00

Originally posted by Clatter


No it isnt. The rev limit stops it being of use for that.

True. But it will be useful as additional torque at corner exit, provided there is enough grip.

#19 pingu666

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 15:04

erm, lengthen the gearing abit? ;)

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#20 undersquare

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 16:04

Originally posted by pingu666
erm, lengthen the gearing abit? ;)


Yes, though if they do that (which they have to, really) if they can't use kers on any trip down the straight, because they've used it up, they'll be overgeared, more of a sitting duck than ever...

#21 Atreiu

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 16:27

There really is no answer to your question except "time will tell".

#22 F1Champion

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 17:20

With KERS will a driver be pushing the push to pass on every lap? The rules state it can only be engaged (once?) per lap, I'd imagine the drivers will be using the system every time they are on a straight?

That is unless the FIA have strictly said that it will be used as a passing tool....although that would be hard to govern. Being 1 sec behind in the dirty air of another car could be used as an excuse to use the system even though you're nowhere near passing the driver in front.

#23 undersquare

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 18:02

Originally posted by F1Champion
With KERS will a driver be pushing the push to pass on every lap? The rules state it can only be engaged (once?) per lap, I'd imagine the drivers will be using the system every time they are on a straight?

That is unless the FIA have strictly said that it will be used as a passing tool....although that would be hard to govern. Being 1 sec behind in the dirty air of another car could be used as an excuse to use the system even though you're nowhere near passing the driver in front.


IIRC they can use up to 400kJ per lap, at a maximum rate of 60kW, giving 6.6 seconds per lap, and they can use that however they like. Also they can only store at a rate of 60kW, and only up to 400kJ per lap, but there's no limit on storage capacity.

#24 DOHC

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 18:08

Originally posted by undersquare
IIRC they can use up to 400kJ per lap


You are aware, I hope, that 400kJ equals less than 100 kcalories, which is an amount of energy that you will easily expend in less than 10 minutes of easy jogging?

#25 undersquare

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 18:49

Originally posted by DOHC


You are aware, I hope, that 400kJ equals less than 100 kcalories, which is an amount of energy that you will easily expend in less than 10 minutes of easy jogging?


Did you miss the "k"?

#26 prxty

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 19:17

Originally posted by undersquare


Did you miss the "k"?

No. It is right. 10 min. jogging is about 100 KCal. consumption.

#27 Ferrim

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 20:24

Originally posted by undersquare

I don't know what to think of it, TBH. It's a great concept, but very limited in the way it's been done so far. I suppose the limitations mean that there won't be too much difference on track between the good and bad designs - good for the racing, bad for the engineers (again :p ).


I'd love if a team somehow found a way to create a system which makes them gain a second a lap. F*** off Mosley.

#28 undersquare

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 20:35

Originally posted by prxty

No. It is right. 10 min. jogging is about 100 KCal. consumption.


OK, so let me check through it...

a joule is a watt-second
400 kJ is 400 kW for 1 second
or 59.7 kW for 6.7 seconds
60 kW = 80.4 bhp

so that's correct. Phew :lol:

#29 marchof73

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 22:24

Originally posted by Josta
I heard of a new concept devised by Ferrari. It uses the force of the wind under acceleration in addition to braking force. It is called the Wind Assisted Natural Kenetic Energy Recovery System.


As opposed to Toyota,s TOyota Super Secret Energy Recovery System
Ian

#30 flyboy

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 00:56

Hopefully! They would be better off allowing turbodiesel technology.

#31 DOHC

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 04:45

Originally posted by marchof73
TOyota Super Secret Energy Recovery


TOSSER?

#32 Pingguest

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 09:07

Originally posted by flyboy
They would be better off allowing turbodiesel technology.


I don't see why. I think (turbo) diesel doesn't belong in motorsport. Awful sound. :down:

#33 papa

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 09:23

Originally posted by DOHC


TOSSER?


let's play with abbreviations

here is mine

reading Your lines it occurred to me to rename KERS to

Failed Acceleration Recovery Technology ;)

#34 bogi

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:01

MAX

Masochism Ass eXtreme

:confused:

#35 Perigee

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:17

McLaren: Creative Utilisation New Testing System.

#36 DigDig

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:41

hahahaha i see this thread deviated from the topic huh?

#37 papa

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:50

Originally posted by DigDig
hahahaha i see this thread deviated from the topic huh?


thing is that title of the topic and some presented facts inevitable led to a deviation :cool:

#38 Josta

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Posted 18 June 2008 - 10:53

Originally posted by DigDig
hahahaha i see this thread deviated from the topic huh?


Sorry, that was my fault. :blush: