140 replies to this topic

[kar]

Auto motor und sport has an interesting article:

http://www.auto-moto...13285_13987.hbs (auf Deutsch)

Basically the GPDA drivers are threatening strike action over their superlicense fees which for Hamilton, Kimi, Massa, Alonso are over or near to €200,000.

The GPDA are demanding a sitdown with Mosley over the matter before the British Grand Prix and if a resolution isn't found they will strike. They say it is unfair that the cost of a super licence has gone from €1,500 to €10,000 and do not believe they should have an extra burden placed on their pockets to cover the costs of security and safety at races and tests.

What is somewhat ironic is that three of the four highest paying drivers are not members of the GPDA, and with their championship hopes on the line it's highly unlikely they will join in any strike action.

Interesting development anyway. Mosley ain't getting anything easy at the moment

Personally speaking though I think it is exceptionally pathetic for the majority of F1 drivers to be quibbling over what would be a minute percentage of their annual salaries. Particularly when living in tax exile.

[Andy Davies]

But why should their license cost more because they are successful drivers?

[Rinehart]

Principles are principles regardless of how much money you have in the bank.

[Risil]

Originally posted by kar

Personally speaking though I think it is exceptionally pathetic for the majority of F1 drivers to be quibbling over what would be a minute percentage of their annual salaries. Particularly when living in tax exile.

It's also exceptionally pathetic that around half the money generated by F1 leaves motorsport altogether. And it's the drivers risking their lives; Bernie and CVC Capital Partners just have to worry about which diamond-encrusted solid gold tuxedo to wear to Flavio's wedding.

[kar]

Originally posted by Andy Davies
But why should their license cost more because they are successful drivers?

Same reason why someone with a salary of £75,000 should pay more tax than someone on £18,000. Why should someone on a driver salary of say €100,000 pay 10% of their salary when someone on €10,000,000 only has to pay 0.1%?

Personally speaking I think the FIA has and does spend a lot of money making sure drivers are safe. I think it is eminently fair that they pay (and it's a pittance as a percentage) of their salary to contribute to that expense.

Lewis Hamilton splashed out what, £200,000 on a stupid number plate, it's very, very rich for him (and I don't know that he is here to be fair) to complain about paying less than that for the right to race in a safe, very lucrative racing series. If they are really pissed off, they should just negotiate into their drivers contract reimbursement for their super licence fees.

It's also exceptionally pathetic that around half the money generated by F1 leaves motorsport altogether. And it's the drivers risking their lives; Bernie and CVC Capital Partners just have to worry about which diamond-encrusted solid gold tuxedo to wear to Flavio's wedding.

Preaching to the choir here :-)

[Hacklerf]

Originally posted by Rinehart
Principles are principles regardless of how much money you have in the bank.

For sure, as this is not a question of earnings but a system where it cost you to be successful, sure if you are successful you have more money but that is irrelevant.

The point should be, to have a super licence you should be charged the same amount whether you are a Raikkonen a Sutil or a 7 times world champion

[jcbc3]

Originally posted by kar


Same reason why someone with a salary of £75,000 should pay more tax than someone on £18,000. Why should someone on a driver salary of say €100,000 pay 10% of their salary when someone on €10,000,000 only has to pay 0.1%?

...

But that isn't necessarily the case here, kar.

Fernando is most certainly on a higher retainer than Massa, but next year will only pay a much smaller fee for the privillege of racing.

So, no. It aint FAIR.

[kar]

Sorry I find it a little hard to feel too sorry for drivers on multi million dollar salaries, living in tax exiles, paying less than 3% of their salary to help pay for the running of the sport in which they earn their millions - safely.

I lose between 40% to 51% of my income in taxes, it seems really ridiculous for these jokers to be threatening strike action over the loss of like 2-3%.

[paffett4F1]

So the grid at Silverstone will be made up of Hamilton, Raikonnen, Massa & Sutil as they aren't in the GPDA, at least there'll be a bit more competition than Indy 05.

[undersquare]

It's a funny way of funding the FIA it seems to me. The entire sport has to be run, regulated, that means funding, why "cycle" the money through the drivers when it comes from the sponsors and teams? The obvious answer is that it seems easy, they can't complain or Max will just withdraw their vital superlicence. Up to now, anyway.

Another sign that Max's total power is fading. What will Bernie say?

[Josta]

Originally posted by paffett4F1
So the gird at Silverstone will be made up of Hamilton, Raikonnen, Massa & Sutil as they aren't in the GPDA, at least there'll be a bit more competition than Indy 05.

Nobody would win. Lewis would ram Kimi who would in turn ram Sutil, then Massa would bizzarely spin off the road whilst unchallenged by anyone.

[Crazy Ninja]

Originally posted by Josta


Nobody would win. Lewis would ram Kimi who would in turn ram Sutil, then Massa would bizzarely spin off the road whilst unchallenged by anyone.

[kar]

It is a bit ridiculous though, isn't it, the GPDA threatening to strike over a superlicence schedule that uses the same principle (fees are calculated per point earned) as their own union fees do ...

[MikeTekRacing]

but gpda is optional

[kar]

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
but gpda is optional

So is racing in F1.

[Josta]

Originally posted by kar


So is racing in F1.

Really? Can I do it then?

[kar]

Originally posted by Josta


Really? Can I do it then?

You can if you're good enough. And if you are good enough and don't like the rules of the sport, or the conditions of entry then you can choose to do something else.

[Chiara]

I do see their point, why should one driver pay more than another driver? does a top driver paying 200,000 euros and upwards get more out of the safety and facilities than a driver who pays 10,000? does a top driver crash more?

The price hike from the previous season has gone up quite substantially from the 1,5000 plus points to 10,000 plus points. Are we to believe that in the last season the safety and facilities has either become substantially more expensive and better? sounds more to me that more of it is going into the FIA coffers....but then I'm an old cynic

[AFCA]

I don't really know what to think about the superlicense fees having gone up so much, but why are they threatening to strike in Silverstone and not in Melbourne ?

[Crazy Ninja]

Well i dont really understand the details but from what i can somewhat recall the story goes like this: At testing safety procedures were pretty non existent. IIRC Coulthard said once that at somwhere like Spa there would only be a medical car and nothing else. Now that the GPDA have had their wishes granted - better safety at testing, but it needs funding. This funding is being raised via increased charges on their superlicences. So basically they get the increased levels of safety asked for by the GPDA (themselves) but they dont want to pay for it?


Correct me if im wrong (it has happened before).

[Ross Stonefeld]

Safety at tests is an odd one because while your testing is defined by the FIA, it is not hosted by the FIA.

[Youichi]

Originally posted by Andy Davies
But why should their license cost more because they are successful drivers?

They are not comlaining about paying more because they are successful, they are complaining about the 6 fold increase since last year.

From the original article :-

Der Basispreis beträgt für jeden Piloten 10.000 Euro (früher 1.500 Euro), für jeden Punkt aus der Vorsaison wurden noch einmal 2.000 Euro (früher 250 Euro) zusätzlich fällig.

The licenses cost 1500 euro + 250 euros per point scored last year.

This year they cost 10,000 euro + 2,000 euros per point scored.

Thats a 6 fold, and an 8 fold increase, are the drivers 6 times safer than last year ? or is this money going into a pot labeled perks for men in blazers ?

[Josta]

Originally posted by Youichi


Thats a 6 fold, and an 8 fold increase, are the drivers 6 times safer than last year ? or is this money going into a pot labeled perks for men in blazers ?

It is going to finance Max's sore bum.

[Hacklerf]

Originally posted by Chiara
but then I'm an old cynic

i wouldn't say cynic

[kar]

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/52302

GPDA agrees on plan to improve safety

By Jonathan Noble Friday, June 9th 2006, 17:35 GMT

Formula One drivers have succeeded in their plans to get improved safety at tests after agreeing a plan of action at a meeting of the Grand Prix Drivers' Association (GPDA) on Friday.

The drivers have been pushing teams and the FIA to improve medical facilities at tests, because they are worried that safety is not as good as it is at Grands Prix.

Following recent meetings with teams, the GPDA have now agreed to pay for the improvements themselves in the short term before the costs are passed onto the teams.

"We wanted to discuss with the FIA about track safety," said GPDA director David Coulthard. "There was Alex Wurz's shunt (last week) and it was more than two minutes before a car got to him at Barcelona. And (Luca) Badoer had a very, very big shunt...

This is from when the GPDA moaned about tests not being up to standard and they funded the medical staff out of their own pockets. I believe the FIA now funds this (even though the article suggests it is the teams) with the testing restrictions now in place making it feasible.

Which led to this: http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/52302

Trulli hails improved safety at F1 tests

By Alan Baldwin Friday, January 12th 2007, 16:31 GMT

Formula One test circuits have made huge improvements in safety since drivers raised concerns last year, Italian Jarno Trulli said on Friday.

"You cannot imagine such a big step that we have done in the last six months," the driver told reporters at the launch of the new Toyota TF107 car that he will test for the first time later this month.

"A circuit like Jerez has made a huge, huge step on safety," he added. "Before they were really poor in all details and now I feel much more comfortable.

"There are still some tracks that have to make a little effort in order to be safer, but this I think is a great achievement by the GPDA (Grand Prix Drivers' Association), by the teams and (governing) FIA.

"Before there were no rules and you cannot imagine the situation that we were testing in. It was really, really bad. At the races everything is fine but at testing it really was a disaster," said the Italian.
...

[F1Johnny]

Originally posted by Youichi


They are not comlaining about paying more because they are successful, they are complaining about the 6 fold increase since last year.

From the original article :-



The licenses cost 1500 euro + 250 euros per point scored last year.

This year they cost 10,000 euro + 2,000 euros per point scored.

Thats a 6 fold, and an 8 fold increase, are the drivers 6 times safer than last year ? or is this money going into a pot labeled perks for men in blazers ?

Those are big jumps and they need some explanation. I would imagine Anthony Davidson would find €10,000 a big dip in the pocket and €200,000+ annually is good money any way you cut it.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Lewis spends that much on license plates ;)

[Mika Mika]

Too Much Money Syndrome....

[giacomo]

Poor boys. Of course they cannot afford €200,000 for their superlicense.

They have much better use for their money. The ₤200,000 license plate LEW1S is springing into my mind.

[kismet]

As a matter of principle, I'd be tempted to whine about a 600-700 % increase in the cost of essential work gear, too. That I could afford it just fine is not the point.

[Chiara]

Originally posted by Hacklerf


i wouldn't say cynic

right your going over my knee!

[BMW_F1]

this is absurd. The article is in German and I do not understand. Which drivers are actually not willing to pay?
Lewis and Kimi are not in the GPDA..

[Hacklerf]

Originally posted by Chiara


right your going over my knee!

Only if you put that uniform on again for me

[Eastern]

I am confused by this debate. Some people seem to see the superlicense fee as a form of taxation: well, if this is correct, then kar has a point, and as in most forms of personal taxation, those with higher income pay higher rates.

On the other hand, some people see it as a fee for a driving license. And I am sure that the fee remains the same for a regular driving license, whether you are a zillionaire or postman. In which case, there is no basis in logic for Raikkonen to pay more for his license than Sutil.

Yet others seem to see it as a form of health insurance: a contribution towards safety. If this is the case then arguably, the most recent recruits to the grid are statistically more likely to require medical assistance, and perhaps their superlicense (premium) should reflect this?

That having been said (tongue in cheek), I would have thought it was the responsibility of the teams, race track owners, and the FIA to provide safe working conditions for the employees (drivers), and between them they should pay all costs, including health premiums, required to protect them.

[AFCA]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
this is absurd. The article is in German and I do not understand. Which drivers are actually not willing to pay?
Lewis and Kimi are not in the GPDA..

No one is mentioned in particular, only the F1 drivers in generall...

[D.M.N.]

http://babelfish.yah...TrUrl=Translate

That's the translation from Yahoo! Babelfish. It's not great, but it's readable.

[D A]

I calculated how much FIA gets from the drivers, and with and 18 race calendar they get about €1.4M with €2k per point. Then you can add about €300k for all drivers with a superlicence (I just took 30 drivers as I assume the test drivers for the teams have a superlicence). In total this gives the FIA about €1.7M. Now the question is how much does with cover?

[Eastern]

....on the other hand, I would love to see a drivers' strike. On top of all the other **** we have had to put up with in this circus, it might be quite entertaining

[Perigee]

Originally posted by kar


Same reason why someone with a salary of £75,000 should pay more tax than someone on £18,000. Why should someone on a driver salary of say €100,000 pay 10% of their salary when someone on €10,000,000 only has to pay 0.1%?

For the same reason a can of beans costs the same at the supermarket whether you're a billionaire or a pauper.

Normal driving licenses cost the same, regardless of what you earn.

This isn't (supposed to be) a tax (where graded rates are fair) but a product or service (effectively), where the charge should not, imho, be based on your income or abilityto pay.

[F1Fanatic.co.uk]

Originally posted by Josta
Nobody would win. Lewis would ram Kimi who would in turn ram Sutil, then Massa would bizzarely spin off the road whilst unchallenged by anyone.

[secessionman]

150-1 for Sutil to reach the podium is starting to sound a little tempting

[kar]

Rough translation into English: (doing this gives me new appreciation for AFCA, reading it is one thing, translating it is something else )

http://www.auto-moto...13285_13987.hbs

The FIA faces new trouble: Formula 1 drivers' union threatens strike action over high licence fees.

FIA President Max Mosley cannot catch a break. After his Sex Scandal and the resulting anger from the teams and the ongoing conflict with Bernie Ecclestone now comes rebellion, also, from the drivers. The contentious issue (for the drivers) high licence fees for competing in the FIA World Championship and the manner in which they are calculated.

Representatives of the Grand Prix Drivers Association (GPDA) want to meet with Mosley before the Grand Prix of England (sic). The drivers demand the repayment of their fees. In the event that the FIA President does not agree the drivers will consider taking strike action.

Eight-fold increase in fees

At root of the anger is an eight-fold increase in fees over the previous year. The basic fee for each driver is €10,000 (formerly €1,500) with a further €2,000 (formerly €250) levied for each championship point scored in the previous season. In the winter Raikkonen, Hamilton and Alonso had to pay more than €200,000 to the FIA. “Kubica's licence, undeservedly, will cost nearly one tenth his salary”, complains one of the ringleaders.

The FIA justifies the price increase saying that the money is invested into safety. The drivers however, reject that argument, the tone of the drivers' response: “Why should we pay as a matter of course".

Overview of Drivers' fees

1 Kimi Räikkönen 230.000 Euro
2 Lewis Hamilton 228.000 Euro
3 Fernando Alonso 228.000 Euro
4 Felipe Massa 198.000 Euro
5 Nick Heidfeld 132.000 Euro
6 Robert Kubica 88.000 Euro
7 Heikki Kovalainen 70.000 Euro
8 Giancarlo Fisichella 52.000 Euro
9 Nico Rosberg 50.000 Euro
10 David Coulthard 38.000 Euro
11 Mark Webber 30.000 Euro
12 Jarno Trulli 26.000 Euro
13 Sebastian Vettel 22.000 Euro
14 Jenson Button 22.000 Euro
15 Takuma Sato 18.000 Euro
16 Adrian Sutil 12.000 Euro
17 Kazuki Nakajima 10.000 Euro
17 Nelson Piquet Jr. 10.000 Euro
17 Sebastien Bourdais 10.000 Euro
17 Timo Glock 10.000 Euro
17 Rubens Barrichello 10.000 Euro
17 Anthony Davidson 10.000 Euro

[BMW_F1]

I don't get it, Rubens is far more successful than Button but he only pays half of what Button pays?
If I was Jenson I would have someone explain this.
who makes up these fees.. ?

[Clatter]

So in the last race LH might have saved KR 20000 euros.

[giacomo]

Originally posted by BMW_F1
I don't get it, Rubens is far more successful than Button but he only pays half of what Button pays?
If I was Jenson I would have someone explain this.
who makes up these fees.. ?

The superlicense fee is based upon the 2007 points score.
Button: 6 pts - Barrichello: zero pts

[BMW_F1]

Originally posted by giacomo
The superlicense fee is based upon the 2007 points score.
Button: 6 pts - Barrichello: zero pts

got it.. thanks..

[paffett4F1]

New Amount>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Amount under old rules>>>>Increase

1 Kimi Räikkönen 230.000 Euro >>>>>>29,000 +201,000
2 Lewis Hamilton 228.000 Euro >>>>>>28,750 +199,250
3 Fernando Alonso 228.000 Euro >>>>>28,750 +199,250
4 Felipe Massa 198.000 Euro >>>>>>>>25,000 +173,000
5 Nick Heidfeld 132.000 Euro >>>>>>>>16,750 +115,250
6 Robert Kubica 88.000 Euro >>>>>>>>11,250 +76,750
7 Heikki Kovalainen 70.000 Euro >>>>>>9,000 +61,000
8 Giancarlo Fisichella 52.000 Euro >>>>>6,750 +45,250
9 Nico Rosberg 50.000 Euro >>>>>>>>>6,500 +43,500
10 David Coulthard 38.000 Euro >>>>>5,000 +33,000
11 Mark Webber 30.000 Euro >>>>>>>4,000 +26,000
12 Jarno Trulli 26.000 Euro >>>>>>>>3,500 +22,500
13 Sebastian Vettel 22.000 Euro >>>>3,000 +19,000
14 Jenson Button 22.000 Euro >>>>>>3,000 +19,000
15 Takuma Sato 18.000 Euro >>>>>>>2,500 +15,500
16 Adrian Sutil 12.000 Euro >>>>>>>>1,750 +10,250
17 Kazuki Nakajima 10.000 Euro >>>>>1,500 +8,500
17 Nelson Piquet Jr. 10.000 Euro >>>>1,500 +8,500
17 Sebastien Bourdais 10.000 Euro >>>1,500 +8,500
17 Timo Glock 10.000 Euro >>>>>>>>1,500 +8,500
17 Rubens Barrichello 10.000 Euro >>>1,500 +8,500
17 Anthony Davidson 10.000 Euro >>>1,500 +8,500


All drivers will be paying between 5 and 7 times what they would have paid under the old rules.

In my view all they should be paying for is what it costs for the FIA to carry out it's licensing duties, they should not be paying for security or safety, these are the responsibilty of the FIA and the Track operators.

[kar]

I think a fair solution is for the FIA to say hey, okay, we'll go with a 100% increase in fees (basically inline with the inflation of everything else at the moment) and we will no longer support testing at all and you can go back to the old arrangement where the GPDA funds safety there.

That's only fair, after all, we administer the world championship, not testing. "Why should we (the fia) pay as a matter of course?"

That said, practically, the system does have some iniquities such as Robert Kubica and probably Nick Heidfeld. You also have to wonder at Adrian Sutil's situation had he finished in Monaco where his placing could have cost him €10,000.

The system needs to be tweaked but it seems a bit ridiculous for the GPDA to be threatening strike action before a dialogue has taken place.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by kar
I think a fair solution is for the FIA to say hey, okay, we'll go with a 100% increase in fees (basically inline with the inflation of everything else at the moment) and we will no longer support testing at all and you can go back to the old arrangement where the GPDA funds safety there.

That's only fair, after all, we administer the world championship, not testing. "Why should we (the fia) pay as a matter of course?"

That said, practically, the system does have some iniquities such as Robert Kubica and probably Nick Heidfeld. You also have to wonder at Adrian Sutil's situation had he finished in Monaco where his placing could have cost him €10,000.

The system needs to be tweaked but it seems a bit ridiculous for the GPDA to be threatening strike action before a dialogue has taken place.

The funding of safety facilities at tests is something that the drivers should discuss with their teams, and if they are not happy then refuse to test. It's not something I personally believe should be funded by the FIA or the drivers, but the teams themselves as they are the ones who want to be on track.

[kar]

Originally posted by Clatter


The funding of safety facilities at tests is something that the drivers should discuss with their teams, and if they are not happy then refuse to test. It's not something I personally believe should be funded by the FIA or the drivers, but the teams themselves as they are the ones who want to be on track.

Yes and no. I think the FIA has specific domain knowledge when it comes to the organisation and implementation of safety at motorsporting events. They are the best equipped body to ensure consistent, high standard safety facilities are provided at a motoring venue. I don't make sense for teams to hire third parties to come and provide safety facilities when the FIA is best equipped to do it.

It makes sense for the FIA to be involved. The problem, as always, comes down to who foots the bill.

The drivers previously, and currently foot the bill one way or another directly and indirectly the teams foot it (by paying the drivers' salaries).

Personally, I just think the drivers should moan to their teams to pay them a bit more to cover their superlicence fee. Like when I contract in the city, I factor in my travel costs and other expenses into my rate. Drivers should do the same.