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Drivers threaten Silverstone strike


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#101 Mika Mika

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 12:10

Originally posted by kar
Massa I think had an issue with the leadership of the organisation. The way Coulthard talked about him after the Australian incident _he_ largely caused, probably showed how seriously Massa is taken by the other senior drivers (not very) and so Massa voted with his wallet.


I think you are right DC was way outta line with that comment, came across as a total bully!

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#102 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 12:11

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing
kar do you pay for renewing your driving license a fee based on what you earn?


His income isn't tied to his driving license.

A better comparison would be your insurance. A better comparison yet would be malpractice insurance rates doctors pay based on their specialties.

#103 Josta

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 12:12

Originally posted by Mika Mika


I think you are right DC was way outta line with that comment, came across as a total bully!


I thought it was hillarious. :D

#104 jcbc3

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 13:31

I just don't like the argument: "They can afford it, so it can't be unfair", propogated by someone here.

#105 pingu666

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 13:47

i think you need seat time in a f1 car to get a superlicence, so it is possible... but im sure the teams would want superlicenced drivers just to cover themselves.

for someone in kubica's situation, that must be pretty painful money wise, as i presume hes getting taxed a decent ammount..

#106 kar

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 13:54

Originally posted by pingu666
i think you need seat time in a f1 car to get a superlicence, so it is possible... but im sure the teams would want superlicenced drivers just to cover themselves.

for someone in kubica's situation, that must be pretty painful money wise, as i Less presume hes getting taxed a decent ammount..


It's still less than 10%, even in Robert's case. And if that's the worst example the GPDA can come up with it's still less than what every working Briton pays for their (compulsory) 'national insurance'.

#107 Beyond

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 13:56

I see no reason in making the drivers pay 10.000 if they payed 1.500, I understand why they are complaining, the point is not that they are payed x million euros, but that FIA can't increase so much fees.

#108 tidytracks

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 14:40

Originally posted by kar


It's still less than 10%, even in Robert's case. And if that's the worst example the GPDA can come up with it's still less than what every working Briton pays for their (compulsory) 'national insurance'.


Hmmmm, not exactly.

See here: UK National Insurance rates

#109 paffett4F1

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 14:43

Originally posted by kar


It's still less than 10%, even in Robert's case. And if that's the worst example the GPDA can come up with it's still less than what every working Briton pays for their (compulsory) 'national insurance'.




As Maxxx says that most of the benefit is for the drivers.....


"We spend a fortune on safety and most of it is for the benefit of the drivers," Mosley told reporters at a lunch.




....thereby implying some of the benefit is for others, such as spectators, perhaps you wouldn't mind paying a 10% Max Tax on your next GP ticket?

#110 intelligentsia

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 14:58

To me the situation clearly shows a lack of direction with the management of the GPDA.

They are threatening with strike action, but what are the chances of them actually striking, their teams will never allow it. Why are they bothered by the situation now? They have already paid the money so in principal it meant that they have accepted the charges. If they really wanted wanted to make a more constructive case they should have gone public with the issue in January, before they paid for the licenses not 5 months afterwards with hollow threads.

#111 kar

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 15:08

Originally posted by paffett4F1
....thereby implying some of the benefit is for others, such as spectators, perhaps you wouldn't mind paying a 10% Max Tax on your next GP ticket?


Rather than the current 50+% 'Bernie's Bambino bank account' tax? Hell yes.

#112 united

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 15:14

Auto Motor und Sport has some details.

http://www.auto-moto...13315_13987.hbs

- Drivers are wary of the possibility of a strike
- Almost everyone disturbed by increased fees, answers from FIA deemed 'unsatisfactory'
- Hamilton and Massa support GDPA-drivers
- Alonso dismisses claim that once he earns $30 mil he can spare some EUR200.000 - 3-4 years ago it was a substantial sum even for him.
- Kubica says that some of the drivers care little as they earn top salaries without many points (well done Robert), but he would give away his money in case it really helps safety.

So drivers are angry, strike is an extremely remote possibility.

#113 kar

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 15:14

Originally posted by tidytracks


Hmmmm, not exactly.

See here: UK National Insurance rates


Trust me I know NI well enough, I can add a few pages of qualifications to my comment above, but would that have fundamentally changed the point?

No, so the point remains, for the vast majority of working Britons which earn between £90 and £770 per week they pay an 11% NI contribution against their incomes.

And god help them if they dare contract ... :/

#114 pingu666

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 15:43

Originally posted by kar


It's still less than 10%, even in Robert's case. And if that's the worst example the GPDA can come up with it's still less than what every working Briton pays for their (compulsory) 'national insurance'.


how much tax(or similer) does robert pay tho? he could lose around 50% of his paycheck easily...

#115 kar

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:01

The GPDA, and Mark Webber specifically are utterly full of shit.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68416

Asked why Webber thought it would be better to speak to Ecclestone rather than go straight to FIA president Max Mosley, who announced the changes in January, the Red Bull driver replied: "We can't get a meeting with Max, and we can see Bernie a lot easier, so it makes sense to go to him. [We should] pick it up with him to start with


http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68418

In a letter seen by autosport.com responding to GPDA directors Fernando Alonso, Mark Webber and Pedro de la Rosa who had requested discussions about the matter, Mosley wrote that he was happy to make himself available.

But despite leaving the time and place of the meeting open to the drivers in the letter, which was sent earlier this month, it is understood he has not received a response so far.



http://www.timesonli...icle4174829.ece

However, an FIA spokesman confirmed that Mosley wrote to the GPDA on June 6 stating he would be happy to meet with them, and to name a time and venue, but he has yet to receive a reply.

When the meeting takes place, the GPDA will seek a compromise as there is a feeling if they are contributing towards safety, the more successful drivers should not be penalised.



#116 MattPete

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:05

Why should drivers even have to pay for superlicenses in the first place?

#117 Josta

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:11

Originally posted by kar
The GPDA, and Mark Webber specifically are utterly full of shit.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68416



http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68418




http://www.timesonli...icle4174829.ece


They want to speak with the FIA, not a dirty old woman beating nazi pervert. "We can't get a meeting with Max" means "we can't bear to be seen with the dirty old woman beating nazi pervert, and we want to speak with someone who has some credibility".

#118 D.M.N.

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:16

Originally posted by Josta


They want to speak with the FIA, not a dirty old woman beating nazi pervert. "We can't get a meeting with Max" means "we can't bear to be seen with the dirty old woman beating nazi pervert, and we want to speak with someone who has some credibility".


:rotfl: :rotfl:

#119 jcbc3

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:18

Originally posted by kar
The GPDA, and Mark Webber specifically are utterly full of shit.

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68416



http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68418




http://www.timesonli...icle4174829.ece


From Autosport:

"We approached the FIA two or three times, always by letter," he said. "And with not a positive answer, so we didn't agree on anything. We will see."



You fail to realise that the drivers said that they had had answers but that they were entirely unsatisfactory. It could be that in Max's letter of June 6, he did make himself available, but at the same time said that it would be a waste of time, because the rules were as he stated and not ten wild horses could make him change his mind.

We just don't know enough to proclaim either side "full of shit".

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#120 kar

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:20

"We can't get a meeting with Max"


Webber says, _specifically_ "we can't get a meeting with Max."

It's pretty straight forward stuff jcbc, and not really open to interpretation it's a direct and standalone statement.

#121 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:23

Originally posted by MattPete
Why should drivers even have to pay for superlicenses in the first place?


Everyone has to pay for their license. I paid for my road drivers license in the US, I paid for my racing license in the UK.

#122 saudoso

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:26

Originally posted by Mika Mika


I think you are right DC was way outta line with that comment, came across as a total bully!


It was said by Burti, who is friend of FM and works for Globo TV, that DC was the reason why he left.

#123 jcbc3

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:27

Originally posted by saudoso


It was said by Burti, who is friend of FM and works for Globo TV, that DC was the reason why he left.


and how childish is that? :lol:

#124 jcbc3

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:28

Originally posted by kar


Webber says, _specifically_ "we can't get a meeting with Max."

It's pretty straight forward stuff jcbc, and not really open to interpretation it's a direct and standalone statement.


He did. You are correct.

#125 Josta

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 18:34

Originally posted by kar


Webber says, _specifically_ "we can't get a meeting with Max."

It's pretty straight forward stuff jcbc, and not really open to interpretation it's a direct and standalone statement.


As I said, it is open to interpretation. "We can't get a meeting with Max" can mean "We can't get a meeting with Max even if he begs us to".

This is the first sign of Max's lame duck presidency. Even the drivers are won't meet him about saving them money. Max != FIA now. In name, maybe, in practicality, how can you preside over people who don't respect you? Any other president would have had a fax the next day requesting a meeting.

#126 smartie_f1

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 19:35

They pay the FIA a graduated amount in order to ensure safety standards while they carry out their job.

They can opt to pay the GPDA a graduated amount to ensure safety standards while they carry out their job.

Seems drivers are paying twice to ensure standards that should be in place as part and parcel of the 'spectacle'. Provision of medical personnel, cars and helicopters should be provided at both GPs and tests. There is plenty of empirical evidence to show the effects of fast medical attention after accidents.

The teams need to sit down with the FIA/GPDA/Bernie and agree on a minimum set of standards for tests and GPs and then agree how it will be funded e.g a third from the FIA, a third fro, GPDA and a third levied from the teams.

It seems wrong to make the drivers fund the safety aspects of the sport from their own pocket. I appreciate that the obviously receive the benefit of it, but really those sorts of things should be an obligation of event organisers, not a luxury.

A 1000% increase on fees is just bizarre. It doesn't matter what they get paid and whether its 5% or 20% of their pay packet its a huge increase. I'm sure if any of our workplaces tried to levy fees on us on that scale we'd go nuts.

The drivers all use the track and may all need the facilities and therefore there should be a flat fee for drivers for fees. Perhaps they could charge the teams for test events though. Might encourage them all to use the same facilities at the same time.

The likes of test drivers, who will be on minimum amounts of retainer and pay drivers will be hit really hard by those fees. Fluke results, such as if Sutil had got points in Monaco would have cost him a fortune.

#127 LostProphet

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 19:58

Originally posted by kar


Trust me I know NI well enough, I can add a few pages of qualifications to my comment above, but would that have fundamentally changed the point?

No, so the point remains, for the vast majority of working Britons which earn between £90 and £770 per week they pay an 11% NI contribution against their incomes.

And god help them if they dare contract ... :/


Why god help us?
I pay 8% per week on my taxable income, which currently works out as 3.7% on my gross weekly income.

Gotta love being a contractor!

#128 mclarensmps

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 19:59

Technically speaking, kar, the amount of money earned by F1 drivers is a private matter and none of our business. Therefore, we have no right to judge what they are doing with respect to superlicense fees proportionality to their salaries, regardless of whether we sympathize or not. right? :p

#129 kar

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 20:09

Originally posted by LostProphet


Why god help us?
I pay 8% per week on my taxable income, which currently works out as 3.7% on my gross weekly income.

Gotta love being a contractor!


Dunno how you manage that, but since I work inside of IR-35 I have to effectively pay both employee and employer NI. And I can't just pay myself a rubbish salary and take the rest as a dividend which means I also have to pay the top tax bracket too.

And in my current position I can't work around it.

Big Guns - touche :-)

#130 DoubleWDC

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 20:16

Will the extra money be used for getting more of ze punishment?

#131 tre

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 20:29

maybe guys in the smaller teams should pay more because they crash more often :drunk:

#132 black magic

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 20:42

this issue also highlights what a liability max has become.

because he no longer atttends gps for whatever reason he gives us, he is even more divorced from the drivers who find it more useful to try and talk to bernie than max, even though the issue does not technically even involve bernie.

what an embarassment that the head of motorsport is too ashamed to front up to the headline event but too proud and egotistical to step aside.

I have no respect for max anymore. :down: none

#133 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 20:43

Originally posted by jcbc3


and how childish is that? :lol:

not childish at all
having an old driver with such comments and stiil leading gpds is not a good thing

#134 saudoso

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 20:48

Originally posted by jcbc3


and how childish is that? :lol:


I don't know. Could be childish. Could be not. We needed to see what happens in the meetings to find out who is childish. We know who has peripheral view problems already.

#135 Josta

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:05

Originally posted by kar


Dunno how you manage that, but since I work inside of IR-35 I have to effectively pay both employee and employer NI. And I can't just pay myself a rubbish salary and take the rest as a dividend which means I also have to pay the top tax bracket too.

And in my current position I can't work around it.

Big Guns - touche :-)


You had to pay employer and employee NI before IR35. I agree, obviously IR35 is a crock of shit. Either you are an employee, in which case you get all the benefits and only have to pay employee tax, or you are a company, in which case you employ yourself and can choose your wage and take dividends.

I am contracting in Switzerland, and should pay a total of about 28% deductions. The problem is that it all depends on where you live, and for 2006 I thought "Hey I pay the tax at source, so what is the point in doing my tax return". I found out recently. Despite paying tax at source, I have been told that I owe 22,000 francs for 2006, (this is over 10,000 pounds). Apparently, I am unable to appeal this since I didn't within 20 days, (at a time when I was going through divorce and my family leaving the country so not actually opening my mail). I therefore have to pay tax that I don't owe, just because of paperwork.

You may think that the UK system is bad, but trust me even in the "tax friendly" Switzerland, it can be far worse.

#136 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:12

Originally posted by PiquetPete
This explains why my hero Nelson Piquet isn't scoring any points - he's taking a principled stand against the fees! Well done Nelson! Start scoring when they change the rules! :clap:


:up: LMAOnade

#137 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:19

This taxation system kind of reminds me of the thread about weight penalties on the grid. By taxing/charging by the point, the FIA is in effect penalizing success.

Next up: speeding tickets for fastest lap.

#138 kar

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:39

Originally posted by Josta


You had to pay employer and employee NI before IR35. I agree, obviously IR35 is a crock of shit. Either you are an employee, in which case you get all the benefits and only have to pay employee tax, or you are a company, in which case you employ yourself and can choose your wage and take dividends.

I am contracting in Switzerland, and should pay a total of about 28% deductions. The problem is that it all depends on where you live, and for 2006 I thought "Hey I pay the tax at source, so what is the point in doing my tax return". I found out recently. Despite paying tax at source, I have been told that I owe 22,000 francs for 2006, (this is over 10,000 pounds). Apparently, I am unable to appeal this since I didn't within 20 days, (at a time when I was going through divorce and my family leaving the country so not actually opening my mail). I therefore have to pay tax that I don't owe, just because of paperwork.

You may think that the UK system is bad, but trust me even in the "tax friendly" Switzerland, it can be far worse.


Ouch :/ I was considering doing some work next year either in Zurich or Germany. I think I need to do some more research before committing to anything :blush: :eek:

#139 Crazy Ninja

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 22:33

Not really much to do with the topic but loved kimis answer to the question
"Are you guys underpaid?"
Kimi: "Im happy with what im getting"

So would i be son on your wage.

Kubica made a couple good points though (we're all driving on the same track, why should successful drivers pay more?)

The drivers seem to admit a strike aint gonna happen though. Just shows how ridiculous the FIA is sometimes.

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#140 David M. Kane

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 02:08

Please see Mark Webber's comments...$300,000 for a top points getter for a Super License is ridiculous.

#141 LostProphet

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 11:28

Originally posted by kar


Dunno how you manage that, but since I work inside of IR-35 I have to effectively pay both employee and employer NI. And I can't just pay myself a rubbish salary and take the rest as a dividend which means I also have to pay the top tax bracket too.

And in my current position I can't work around it.

Big Guns - touche :-)


/shrug
That's how it works out. I dunno where the 11% figure comes from, but plotting my post-tax-relief figures into the calculator on ListenToTaxman.com turns out the percentage I quoted.
It's slightly different on my payslip, but then again that site doesn't take into consideration bank holidays and so on.

I do a high amount of mileage (950 per week) so my tax relief figures are very high. But either way, there's not a flat percentage of NI that gets taken out, with or without tax relief.