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Grid penalties & Q3


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#1 wingsbgone

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:00

Just a thought, but if a driver is to be penalized out of the top ten at the start (i.e. Hamiltom & Rosberg this week), are they allowed to refuel after Q3, if they get there? My guess is not, as they would be advantaged in Q3 by being able to run extra light. Anyone know for sure?
Thanks.

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#2 steelyman

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:05

they cannot refuel after Q3 if they get there even when penalty moves them out of the top 10.

#3 bankoq

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:15

They cannot refuel after Q3 for 100%.

#4 secessionman

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:19

So to follow on from that, I think most of us would expect Rosberg to qualify 7th at best, therefore 17th or lower on the grid and not really in the reckoning.

But what of Hamilton?

Do McLaren fuel him especially light... try to qualify 1-3 and start 11-13?

Or go heavy... expect maybe to qualify 3-6 and start 13-16?

I recall Alonso starting 10th last year and only finishing 7th, obviously though his strategy was geared for a top 4 qualifying. But obviously on a light load and amongst those much heavier it didn't really serve him that well.

I am intrigued as to how McLaren will play this and how fellow members see this panning out strategy wise.

#5 bankoq

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:27

There are some indications that Hamilton will have a short first stint to overtake as many cars as possible. Everyone in McLaren is very optimistic, but imho he can easily end his race on 1st lap, or finish 7-8 if there aren't too many accidents and retirements.

#6 Josta

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:35

Originally posted by secessionman
So to follow on from that, I think most of us would expect Rosberg to qualify 7th at best, therefore 17th or lower on the grid and not really in the reckoning.

But what of Hamilton?

Do McLaren fuel him especially light... try to qualify 1-3 and start 11-13?

Or go heavy... expect maybe to qualify 3-6 and start 13-16?

I recall Alonso starting 10th last year and only finishing 7th, obviously though his strategy was geared for a top 4 qualifying. But obviously on a light load and amongst those much heavier it didn't really serve him that well.

I am intrigued as to how McLaren will play this and how fellow members see this panning out strategy wise.


My feeling is the following.

Ferrari 1/2 in quali. They have always had the upper hand in Magny Cours.
BMW 3/4 in quali. They are basically the next most powerfull engine in the straights.
Heikki 5. I believe McLaren will be slightly behind BMW in MC.
Alonso 6. Never discount Renault in it's home track.

I also believe that Trulli and Webber can outqualify a heavy Lewis. So, IMHO, the best position that Lewis can expect in #19 if he is heavy. If he goes light, and doesn't gain significant positions on the first corner, he is equally screwed.

My bet, if I had to make one, would be for Lewis to finish 5th.

#7 Anomnader

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:35

someone mentioned a high chance of rain

#8 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:35

Originally posted by bankoq
There are some indications that Hamilton will have a short first stint to overtake as many cars as possible. Everyone in McLaren is very optimistic, but imho he can easily end his race on 1st lap, or finish 7-8 if there aren't too many accidents and retirements.


Would that also imply that he'll start on the softer tires, as they wear quicker?

After pitting, the idea is he just drives lights-out and makes up as much time as possible while alone on the track?

How many tenths is clean air worth, do you reckon?

#9 secessionman

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 21:45

Assuming possible rain, then a short first stint could serve him well in the event of a safety car. In fact he could then be in a heavy car in close proximity of the leaders who still need to stop again shortly if circumstances fell right for him.

But in a dry race, and say starting 11th with a light car..... he could easily have say Alonso, Webber, Trulli, Coulthard and possibly a Honda starting directly infront of him and if he doesn't clear them within the first couple of laps he could be looking at 6th position best case.

#10 y2cragie

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 23:22

In general Magny cours lends itself to shorter lighter stints, 3 stop strategies and as shown by schumi in 04, 4 stops can work in a drivers favor.
I'd say lewis should look to 3 stops and go light to start with aiming to start 11th or 12th at worst. He'd need to work his way upto about 5th or 6th at worst by the first stop and then work his final stops around the needs of the situation. if he could for instance put in the sort of speed he did in turkey a 4 very short stop strategy could easily get him onto the podium.

#11 JForce

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Posted 19 June 2008 - 23:39

Yeah the thing is that short fast stints work in France, so it could work out ok for him if he can get the traffic right, and his car is quick enough. He's quick enough to do it if circumstances work out for him.

#12 pingu666

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 01:42

http://www.bbc.co.uk..._europe/#no_url

magny cours is in the middle of france roughly level with berne, so there is a chance of rain on sunday...

#13 D.M.N.

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 09:51

Originally posted by pingu666
http://www.bbc.co.uk..._europe/#no_url

magny cours is in the middle of france roughly level with berne, so there is a chance of rain on sunday...


According to Formula1.com, rain is forecast for tomorrow and Sunday: http://www.formula1....008/6/7950.html

#14 stormshadow

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 10:28

Definetly looks like a 3 stopper for Hamilton

#15 VresiBerba

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 12:27

Originally posted by steelyman
they cannot refuel after Q3 if they get there even when penalty moves them out of the top 10.

So what about Webber in Canada? Obviously he started with enough fuel in his car to last more than one lap wich means that Red Bull was allowed to re-fuel Webber's car even though he reached Q3.

#16 Youichi

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 12:30

Originally posted by VresiBerba
So what about Webber in Canada? Obviously he started with enough fuel in his car to last more than one lap wich means that Red Bull was allowed to re-fuel Webber's car even though he reached Q3.


If a car qualifies for Q3, but fails to return to the pits, then the team must tell the FIA how much fuel they intend to put in, before the start of Q3.

#17 VresiBerba

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 13:00

Originally posted by Youichi
If a car qualifies for Q3, but fails to return to the pits, then the team must tell the FIA how much fuel they intend to put in, before the start of Q3.

Yes, which basically means they're free to fuel whatever they want.

#18 secessionman

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 13:10

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Yes, which basically means they're free to fuel whatever they want.


Only if they don't take part in the final session.

Webber would not have been able to alter his fuel load after Q3 had started.

If you take part in Q3 you can't refuel after the session.

#19 Laffite

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 15:54

If I were LH, I would bet a 3 or 4-stop strategy, taking some chances at the first laps (as his championship position is not so far behind leader Kubica).

Schuey showed us that a 4 stop race is possible.

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#20 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 16:12

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Yes, which basically means they're free to fuel whatever they want.

yeah, but so could any other driver qualified in q3...webber couldn't run though

#21 Youichi

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 20:20

Originally posted by VresiBerba
Yes, which basically means they're free to fuel whatever they want.


Only if the team are sufficiently on the ball, to tell the FIA, "oh yes, we were going to put 200Kgs in it" Which judging by Marks 2-stop race, they weren't.

#22 dank

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 20:27

So er, if someone fails to make it into Q2 (say 11th) and as a result of Hamilton and Rosberg's gird penalties are moved into the top 10, are they allowed to put whatever amount of fuel in as per normal?

#23 y2cragie

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Posted 20 June 2008 - 20:52

yup, the only drivers who are required to lock in their fuel loads are those who are scheduled to take the green flag for Q3. Lewis and Nico will not be given their penalties till after the end of Q3.

#24 OfficeLinebacker

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 01:12

So is there any advantage to sandbagging, as it were, to try to be the fastest two cars to NOT make Q3?

#25 Apex

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 02:17

Originally posted by OfficeLinebacker
So is there any advantage to sandbagging, as it were, to try to be the fastest two cars to NOT make Q3?

Missing Q3 can never give an advantage. Driver who make it to Q3 get a better starting position and they can still choose any fuel load they want.

#26 Fatgadget

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 11:20

So should Lewis bag fastest time in Q3, will be shown in the history books as pole position winner?

#27 mursuka80

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 12:04

Originally posted by Laffite
If I were LH, I would bet a 3 or 4-stop strategy, taking some chances at the first laps (as his championship position is not so far behind leader Kubica).

Schuey showed us that a 4 stop race is possible.


Yes,but schumi was one of a kind :D

#28 tidytracks

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 12:25

There's still a chance for Hamilton to be in the top 10 on the grid.

Let's say he gets pole, then a few drivers in the top 10 have to change an engine or those at the lower end of the top 10 change a gearbox.... and because their penalties are applied after Hamilton's as he was given his first, he could very well end up in the top 10.

Long shot, but not impossible.

#29 tidytracks

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Posted 21 June 2008 - 12:40

Originally posted by Fatgadget
So should Lewis bag fastest time in Q3, will be shown in the history books as pole position winner?


No. History will show whoever finished second to be pole position winner, as records for pole position are taken from starting grid. He will however be recorded for having set the fastest time in Q3, although not necessarily the fastest time in qualifying overall as with heavier fuel in Q3, the quickest overall quali lap usually occurs in Q1 or Q2.