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Grand Prix de Magny-Cours 2008 thread


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#251 inca_roads

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:18

Originally posted by Deeq

I've never seen a drive through given for this type of incident.

Mind boggles by the Macfans hyperbole...Is it time for intervention? :drunk:


I'm talking about gaining an advantage. If it is a case like the one today where it isn't a clear cut decision (the team didn't believe so) then they should have been informed if they were expected to concede the position back.

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#252 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:19

Originally posted by Nitropower


You don't need to be told the rules to follow them. And it's well known that if you skip a chicane to pass someone or to prevent someone from passing you, you have to let him by.


But what you have said is inaccurate
The problem was, he was already past him when he skipped the chicane, he didn't skip the chicane to pass theres a difference

#253 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:19

Originally posted by inca_roads


I'm talking about gaining an advantage. If it is a case like the one today where it isn't a clear cut decision (the team didn't believe so) then they should have been informed if they were expected to concede the position back.


Whether Lewis gained a position by straight-lining the chicane was anything but clear-cut.

#254 SlateGray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:20

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Good action, but very poor race.

FIA (POOR POOR POOR Desision) :down:


Rules are the same for everyone even Saint Lewis

FIA 100% correct call good job :up:

#255 smartie_f1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:21

Originally posted by nada12
So what happens to Kimi's engine? Would be a shame if he got a penalty at the next race for changing


the first engine change is penalty free i think - i can't remember if Kimi has already had an unscheduled engine change

#256 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:22

Originally posted by lokiman


Whether Lewis gained a position by straight-lining the chicane was anything but clear-cut.


Didnt you see him cut the corner and make a position? If he did then he gained position from cutting. You cant get more clear cut.

#257 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:22

posted from another Forum



Incidentally, Pedro de la Rosa was commenting the race live (Spanish TV) and a reference was made to the incident with Schumacher in Hungary 2006.

He said that he complained to Charlie Whiting after the race, and Whiting's response was that there was no penalty for Schumacher because DLR had not gained the position at the time Schumacher cut the chicane... DLR's comment (chuckling) was that the response makes no sense because if the other driver cuts the chicane that is allowing him to brake a lot later than you (or not brake at all), which means that you can never gain the position on him.

#258 Piif

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:23

Originally posted by Coral
Today's "race" was a total joke. Why do they even bother having the races! Just hand the trophy to Massa or Raikkonen...take your pick...now. I'm so disgusted with today's events, I feel like never watching another Grand Prix again, but I probably will since I'm addicted. But today was a sad day for motorsport. :(


What the **** are you on? The race was excellent, by far one of the most entertaining and best we've had this year.

It's not the races fault that golden boy Hamilton sucks.

#259 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:23

Originally posted by Blueray


Didnt you see him cut the corner and make a position? If he did then he gained position from cutting. You cant get more clear cut.


Nope, he had already past the Red Bull well before that point.

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#260 Deeq

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:24

Originally posted by ClubmanGT



.....but isn't it funny how Ferrari are the ones always accussed of cheating, hmmm?


Haven't You - by now -learned anything at all :confused:
Here is how it works simple neat and easy...as pie :

A) Ferrai being merely accused = guilty
B) FIA not finding Ferrari guilty = FIA collusion with Ferrari
C) FIA not penalising them = the evidence
D) MacLaren being accused = FIA persecusion...
E) MacLaren being found guilty by FIA = FIA collusion with Ferrari

IF FIA after MacLaren accusation of another team, finds that team not guilty see C + D :D :lol:



I hope you strive to pay attention to the coming chapters about MAX- the EV!L - Mosley....very advanced case study...

#261 Fortymark

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:24

Lewis should just have lifted and let him pass, then there wouldn´t have been
a penalty. The driver/team shpold know this.

As for the race, I don´t think it was that bad. A pity for Kimi though
but there was some good racing between several cars.
Trulli did great and so did Webber. Piquet beating Alonso :eek:

#262 TheSaltire

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:25

Could we all agree that it would be good to see an overhead replay of Hamilton's lap 1 chicane move before saying yay/nay on this whole thing? No sense for his position from Vettel.

#263 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:26

Originally posted by Anomnader


Nope, he had already past the Red Bull well before that point.


lol. He was only able to complete the pass by cutting so he cheated. Why do people around here argue the most deranged things? Even the most clear cut event seems to be debated for 20 pages around here. :lol:

#264 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:27

Originally posted by Anomnader
posted from another Forum



Incidentally, Pedro de la Rosa was commenting the race live (Spanish TV) and a reference was made to the incident with Schumacher in Hungary 2006.

He said that he complained to Charlie Whiting after the race, and Whiting's response was that there was no penalty for Schumacher because DLR had not gained the position at the time Schumacher cut the chicane... DLR's comment (chuckling) was that the response makes no sense because if the other driver cuts the chicane that is allowing him to brake a lot later than you (or not brake at all), which means that you can never gain the position on him.


Was my point excatly!!!! :up: :up:

#265 pollocka

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:27

Hamilton wasn't fully past, if he had braked to make the corner he would have had Vettel side by side with him in the corner, by not braking enough and cutting the corner he completed the pass.

#266 mursuka80

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:27

Posted Image

Posted Image

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respect for Kimi :up:

#267 klover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:27

Dominant Ferraris, the only question was in what order the 1-2 will be.
McLaren wasn't as good as rodlamas predicted (wrong yet again), let's see how they will fare at Silverstone.

#268 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:28

Originally posted by TheSaltire
Could we all agree that it would be good to see an overhead replay of Hamilton's lap 1 chicane move before saying yay/nay on this whole thing? No sense for his position from Vettel.


Id be happier with anoter shot, at the moment it looks very bad from the FIA

#269 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:28

Originally posted by Blueray


Didnt you see him cut the corner and make a position? If he did then he gained position from cutting. You cant get more clear cut.


No, I didn't. I saw him make a pass and then straight-line the chicane. And, no, the result is not the same according to the rules.

#270 MS KR

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:28

Max reads forums, and maybe if you gave him a bit more respect then McLaren would be favoured.

#271 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:29

Does anyone know if Kimi's car passed the weigh in?

#272 nutty

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:30

The problem is the lack of consistency. If Hamilton is penalised for gaining an advantage (ie. staying ahead of Vettel) by cutting the chicane today, why wasn't Vettel himself similarly penalised for cutting the chicane to stay ahead of Kova in Canada?

#273 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:30

Originally posted by Blueray


lol. He was only able to complete the pass by cutting so he cheated. Why do people around here argue the most deranged things? Even the most clear cut event seems to be debated for 20 pages around here. :lol:


Is it absolutely necessary to go around insulting other board members because you happen to disagree with them?

#274 Cenotaph

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:31

I only wish this whinging would just stop... McLaren are being penalised for their own errors, nothing to see here. no penalty given till now this season looked clearly exagerated like Alonso at Monza 2006, for instance.

and hamilton's error in canada is not comparable to kimi's accident in Monaco, and Trulli doesn't deserve a penalty for defending his position agressively...

#275 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:31

Originally posted by MS KR
Max reads forums, and maybe if you gave him a bit more respect then McLaren would be favoured.


We all know what kind of things max looks at on the internet,;);):):):)

#276 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:31

Originally posted by nutty
The problem is the lack of consistency. If Hamilton is penalised for gaining an advantage (ie. staying ahead of Vettel) by cutting the chicane today, why wasn't Vettel himself similarly penalised for cutting the chicane to stay ahead of Kova in Canada?


Well thats the thing I think is the problem, the inconsistancy all weekend, starting with Kovi's penalty

#277 smartie_f1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:32

The FIA have access to a lot more footage than we TV viewers do, which is perhaps why it took so long for them to make a decision - they were reviewing it because it was difficult to tell.

McLaren, to play it safe, should have told hamilton to let vettel through and take him next time round. Martin Brundle said this at the time.

Yes, Hamilton had made a pass on Vettel, but it only stuck because he cut the corner. Had he braked and gone round the track, they'd either have touched and both gone off, or Vettel would have regained his place.

#278 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:32

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I only wish this whinging would just stop... McLaren are being penalised for their own errors, nothing to see here. no penalty given till now this season looked clearly exagerated like Alonso at Monza 2006, for instance.


Well yes, they are being penalised for their own errors, but the problem is other teams get away with it.

#279 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:32

Originally posted by lokiman


No, I didn't. I saw him make a pass and then straight-line the chicane. And, no, the result is not the same according to the rules.


What rule are you talking about? As far as i know the rule says you cant gain position from cutting and thats exactly what hamilton did.

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#280 molive

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:33

Massa, the 1st Brazilian to win this race in 23 years. :up::up:
Massa, the 1st Brazilian to lead the WDC since 1993 (Senna) :up::up:

:clap:


2nd time in a row luck is on FM's side, last year was the opposite. Ok, Kimi was faster today (even Massa conceded that in the PR interview) but still was lucky that didnt get called in, saved his 8 points and kept the gap to Felipe relatively small (imagine what a DNF for him could mean at this stage).

Hamilton losing it under pressure, again. :down:

A very light Alonso trying hard, sometimes too hard. That goes to show how good was Nelsinho's race. :up:

And a special mention to Trully, today he was on fire. :up:

#281 smartie_f1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:33

Originally posted by HoldenRT
Does anyone know if Kimi's car passed the weigh in?


Haven't seen anything yet

#282 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:33

Originally posted by Blueray


What rule are you talking about? As far as i know the rule says you cant gain position from cutting and thats exactly what hamilton did.


Then you should read the rule.

#283 Just

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:34

Raikkonen :up: :up: :up: Brilliant all weekend, just had pure bad luck.
Trulli :up: :up: :up: I couldn't believe how quick Trulli was. Driver of the day.
Webber :up: :up: :up: Beat Alonso!
Massa :up: :up: Not as fast as Raikkonen, but decent at least.

#284 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:34

Originally posted by lokiman


Then you should read the rule.


I know the rule, you obviously dont. Lucky the stewards did and he got the penalty.

#285 jesee

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:35

Originally posted by the ringmaster
wonderful result for the mighty ferrari!


It might be wonderful for ferari, but which purist motor-racing fan want to sit and watch such a procession. Except for trulli and piquet this is a race i would rather forget in terms of entertainment :down: :down:

#286 yr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:35

Originally posted by Anomnader


But what you have said is inaccurate
The problem was, he was already past him when he skipped the chicane, he didn't skip the chicane to pass theres a difference


The problem is, he was past before the corner only because he carried too much speed into the corner and thus had to cut it. If he carried only the speed with which he could have made it through cleanly, then he wouldn´t have pass anyone there.

#287 pollocka

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:36

Originally posted by yr


The problem is, he was past before the corner only because he carried too much speed into the corner and thus had to cut it. If he carried only the speed with which he could have made it through cleanly, then he wouldn´t have pass anyone there.


Indeed it's racing in Gran Turismo arcade mode.

#288 jesee

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:37

Originally posted by Coral
Today's "race" was a total joke. Why do they even bother having the races! Just hand the trophy to Massa or Raikkonen...take your pick...now. I'm so disgusted with today's events, I feel like never watching another Grand Prix again, but I probably will since I'm addicted. But today was a sad day for motorsport. :(


+1

#289 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:38

Originally posted by yr


The problem is, he was past before the corner only because he carried too much speed into the corner and thus had to cut it. If he carried only the speed with which he could have made it through cleanly, then he wouldn´t have pass anyone there.


I agree that is certainly highly probably, thou not conclusive and if you read the post from another forum further up, MS was allowed to get away with this.

#290 Nadsat

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:38

Originally posted by airwise


Hamilton's race was effectively ruined by receiving a stop go for trying to avoid contact by running off the road. After that, the drive was that of a frustrated young man with nought to lose. A podium was there for the taking. He managed to overtake a fairly large number of cars cleanly but he was on a hiding to nothing and horribly out of position on the race track.

Good drive by Heikki though. Webber and Red Bull again putting one over the works boys. Nice to see Piquet's testing time paid dividends. Can't wait to hear Fred's post race comments.


Alonso just said that he had a bad start, that the car is really good with little fuel but not that good when it's loaded. He said he was losing one second per lap with his main rivals. He took the blame for the bad results of the race. "We have to get used to it: we have a lot of work to do still", he said.

#291 klover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:39

Originally posted by molive
Massa, the 1st Brazilian to win this race in 23 years. :up::up:
Massa, the 1st Brazilian to lead the WDC since 1993 (Senna) :up::up:

:clap:


2nd time in a row luck is on FM's side, last year was the opposite. Ok, Kimi was faster today (even Massa conceded that in the PR interview) but still was lucky that didnt get called in, saved his 8 points and kept the gap to Felipe relatively small (imagine what a DNF for him could mean at this stage).

Hamilton losing it under pressure, again. :down:

A very light Alonso trying hard, sometimes too hard. That goes to show how good was Nelsinho's race. :up:

And a special mention to Trully, today he was on fire. :up:

What part of last year's Kimi's luck did you watch? His costly dnfs at Barcelona and Nurburgring perhaps?

#292 yr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:39

Originally posted by molive



2nd time in a row luck is on FM's side, last year was the opposite. Ok, Kimi was faster today (even Massa conceded that in the PR interview) but still was lucky that didnt get called in, saved his 8 points and kept the gap to Felipe relatively small (imagine what a DNF for him could mean at this stage).


:lol: Yeah, Kimi, that lucky son of a bitch. :rotfl:

Massa must be furious because Kimi is so lucky. :wave:

#293 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:39

Originally posted by Blueray


I know the rule, you obviously dont. Lucky the stewards did and he got the penalty.


Ok, keep telling yourself that, and keep up the repeated insults that you've doled out in the thread to people that disagree with you (who have been polite), because we all know that's a clear-cut demonstration of knowledge and maturity.

#294 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:41

Originally posted by lokiman


Ok, keep telling yourself that, and keep up the repeated insults that you've doled out in the thread to people that disagree with you (who have been polite), because we all know that's a clear-cut demonstration of knowledge and maturity.


What repeated insults?

#295 valachus

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:41

Good thing there was no wall instead of an open field chicane, now we'd hear all kind of things about evil FIA not caring enough for the safety of F1's golden hope.

#296 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:42

Originally posted by yr


The problem is, he was past before the corner only because he carried too much speed into the corner and thus had to cut it. If he carried only the speed with which he could have made it through cleanly, then he wouldn´t have pass anyone there.


I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, that's not how the rule has been interpreted in the past. I think that most people - such as myself - who think that the penalty was BS, feel that way because of the inconsistency in application of the penalty.

#297 Cenotaph

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:42

Originally posted by Anomnader


Well yes, they are being penalised for their own errors, but the problem is other teams get away with it.


Well, why don't you wait until a Ferrari crash in a car stopped at a red light or a ferrari wastes another car's qualifying to reach that conclusion?

#298 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:42

Originally posted by Anomnader


I agree that is certainly highly probably, thou not conclusive and if you read the post from another forum further up, MS was allowed to get away with this.



Michaels situation was different as he kept a position but anyway that decision was wrong. This one was in accordance with the regulations. I cant even fathom what your aruging here, considering Hamilton cut a chicane while completing an overtaking manourve. What exactly do you dispute?

#299 yr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:43

Originally posted by Anomnader


I agree that is certainly highly probably, thou not conclusive and if you read the post from another forum further up, MS was allowed to get away with this.


If stewarts have not noticed/ done wrong decision in past, it doesn´t mean they need to keep it that way forever. Rules are rules and they should be obeyed, even if there is a one wrong decision in history.

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#300 Zoe

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:43

Originally posted by Clatter


And yet some drivers are allowed to get away with far more flagrant offences. :rolleyes:


Are you saying that because Senne rammed Prost off intentionally and still kept his points, we should allow banger racing style rules in F1?

Zoe