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Grand Prix de Magny-Cours 2008 thread


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#301 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:44

Originally posted by Blueray


What repeated insults?


If you think that I'm going through your posts to quote the various belittling comments and insults, you're sorely mistaken. I'm not actually remotely interested in attempting to convince of of anything, so there's no point.

Now, back to our regular programming......

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#302 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:44

Originally posted by jcbc3


They all run of the track at some points. There is only a penalty if they gain an advantage of doing so. IMO there should be conclusive evidence of that before accesing a penalty. I hope the stewards have that in this instance, because the tv pictures I have seen is in no way proof of that.


He straight lined the chicane to gain a position, a clear cut penalty. He should have given the spot back, and saved himself a drive through.

:cool:

#303 Torch

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:44

If Lewis had passed well before the chicane and then made a mess of the chiane there would be no penalty.

If Lewis was side by side going into the chicane then a penalty would clearly have been deservered.

This incident was somewhere in between, but from my memory of the video Lewis was past the Torro-Rosso quite early so a penalty seemed quite harsh.

Difficult decision especially as we only have the inboard camera to go on.

#304 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:44

Originally posted by lokiman


I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, that's not how the rule has been interpreted in the past. I think that most people - such as myself - who think that the penalty was BS, feel that way because of the inconsistency in application of the penalty.



The application seems to be different when you retain a position while cutting but Hamilton gained a position while cutting so its totally different. The other interpretation is wrong anyway.

#305 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:46

Originally posted by yr


If stewarts have not noticed/ done wrong decisison in past, it doesn´t mean they need to keep it that way forever. Rules are rules and they should be obeyed, even if there is a one wrong decisision in history.


Yes, but thats the problem isn't it, the rules should be consistant and when they are not that is when there is problems.

I can only go by Forum posts but someone has mentioned that this year, Vettel did the same to Kovi, cut a chicane to KEEP position.
and that Kimi blocked Kubica in qualifying earlier in the year (australia?)

Yesterday, Massa and Kubica went way of track to set a time, which is illegal and nothing was done.


The stewards should be fair when they are laying down the law, not meet it out when and who and when they feel like

#306 BunnyK

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:46

Originally posted by Anomnader
posted from another Forum



Incidentally, Pedro de la Rosa was commenting the race live (Spanish TV) and a reference was made to the incident with Schumacher in Hungary 2006.

He said that he complained to Charlie Whiting after the race, and Whiting's response was that there was no penalty for Schumacher because DLR had not gained the position at the time Schumacher cut the chicane... DLR's comment (chuckling) was that the response makes no sense because if the other driver cuts the chicane that is allowing him to brake a lot later than you (or not brake at all), which means that you can never gain the position on him.


This case was the exact opposite, Hamilton had to brake (which they don't do in that chicane, the shift down one gear) and he didn't and gained one position, watch Trulli's defence to Kovalainen attacks later in the race, you will see he defended correctly the inside line, and Kova, knowing he couldn't overtake there lifted the throttle.

s!

#307 yr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:47

Originally posted by lokiman


I agree with you 100%. Unfortunately, that's not how the rule has been interpreted in the past. I think that most people - such as myself - who think that the penalty was BS, feel that way because of the inconsistency in application of the penalty.


See my post #301

#308 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:49

Originally posted by Anomnader


Yes, but thats the problem isn't it, the rules should be consistant and when they are not that is when there is problems.


You should be arguing about the wrong application of the rule not the correct one.

#309 molive

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:49

Originally posted by yr
Massa must be furious because Kimi is so lucky. :wave:


Kimi really has nothing to complain about, he still got 8 points. That piece of exhaust flew like a rocket, he was lucky that didnt end up in other car or a track marshall.

#310 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:49

Originally posted by jcbc3
Well, I'd protest if I was McLaren. Fully well knowing that it would be thrown out. Just to see if the FIA really think that straightlining a corner is worse than trying to drive another driver of the track. Just so we know what the rules really are.


It's called racing and Trulli said that they did not touch.

:cool:

#311 GustavoB

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:50

Piquet :up: :up: :up:
Trulli :up: :up: :up:
Massa :up: :up:
Kimi :up: :up: :up:
Kovalainen :up: :up:
Hamilton :down:

Great race from Trulli and Piquet. Hope Piquet can mantain this level in the next races that will be at circuits that he knows. In the last laps I was wondering about Trulli losing his position like he did some years ago to Barrichelo in the last corner. Hamilton and Mclaren were stupids for not giving back Vettel's position. In my opnion was a well deserved punishment. Hamilton should be a little bit more cautions, he was clearly overdriving. Heikki teached him a lesson today.
Very entertaining race from a place that often gives us a boring race.

#312 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:50

Originally posted by Kenaltgr


Like Kimi in Brazil last year.


Massa just took the lead in the WDC.

Kimi had just won the WDC.

I understand both celebrations.

:cool:

#313 molive

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:51

Originally posted by Torch
..from my memory of the video Lewis was past the Torro-Rosso quite early so a penalty seemed quite harsh.


Because he braked too late. It was stupid not to give the place back.

#314 yr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:51

Originally posted by Anomnader


Yes, but thats the problem isn't it, the rules should be consistant and when they are not that is when there is problems.

I can only go by Forum posts but someone has mentioned that this year, Vettel did the same to Kovi, cut a chicane to KEEP position.
and that Kimi blocked Kubica in qualifying earlier in the year (australia?)

Yesterday, Massa and Kubica went way of track to set a time, which is illegal and nothing was done.


The stewards should be fair when they are laying down the law, not meet it out when and who and when they feel like


But stewards are also human, and as a human, they have made and will make mistakes. That is not being incosistant - that´s being a human.

#315 Deeq

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:52

Originally posted by Zoe


Are you saying that because Senne rammed Prost off intentionally and still kept his points, we should allow banger racing style rules in F1?

Zoe


Zoe these guys has lost it don't bother.
The IRONY of them complaining about FIA inconsistency in one breath and yet asking more of that in the next, priceless really :stoned:

Now if mr Clatter had a neutral agenda and cared about the sport he would perhaps has shown as the more flagrant example of JPM's FIRST win in F1 - cutting not only once but twice the chicanes of Monza - yet no action by the stewards...Hej it just disproves Ferrari bias so why bother ...

Originally posted by Blueray


You should be arguing about the wrong application of the rule not the correct one.

ZING :up: :clap: :up:

#316 Kenaltgr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:55

Originally posted by Zoe


Are you saying that because Senne rammed Prost off intentionally and still kept his points, we should allow banger racing style rules in F1?

Zoe


Prost kept his points in 1989 when he crashed into Senna and started it all. Prost should have been stripped of his points and then perhaps Schumacher would not have the record for crashing into championship rivals, Hill and Villeneuve.

#317 molive

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:55

Originally posted by GustavoB
Very entertaining race from a place that often gives us a boring race.


It was entertaining from 3rd downwards. The only action between the Ferraris came from a Kimi that was literally faliing into pieces. :lol:

#318 yr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:56

Originally posted by molive


Kimi really has nothing to complain about, he still got 8 points. That piece of exhaust flew like a rocket, he was lucky that didnt end up in other car or a track marshall.


It depends how you look at it. I myself tend to think he was unlucky to have that exhaust problem at first place. I also consider Massa very lucky because a) he wasn´t driving the Ferrari that had that problem. B) because of that problem he won a race where he had no chance winning without problems in Kimis car.

#319 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:59

Originally posted by inca_roads


Why didn't the FIA instruct them to do this then, rather than waiting ten laps and then deciding? I've never seen a drive through given for this type of incident.

5 McLaren penalties in 8 races. A joke.


It is not the FIA's job to instruct that they do that.

The switching have to happen within a number of corners (think it is two), of not happened by then it becomes a penalty.

As Brundle explained, there are 3 different manners in which a penalty can be given, and Hamilton got the lightest.

It is simple, you can not straightline a chicane to make an overtaking move. Had Hamilton tried to turn in, he would either have spun of, or spun himself and Vettel of.

Penalty was clear from the second it happened and neither Lewis nor McLaren made the correct call of giving the position back.

That cost Hamliton any chance of points today.

:cool:

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#320 stormshadow

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:59

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


He straight lined the chicane to gain a position, a clear cut penalty. He should have given the spot back, and saved himself a drive through.

:cool:

.....but ofcourse why should he give up his place to a ratty old Torro Rosso, he's LEW1S Hamilton Lord of the Rings! :stoned:

#321 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:00

Originally posted by Blueray


You should be arguing about the wrong application of the rule not the correct one.


Correct, to a point. But whether you agree with the view, or not (and I accept that not everyone agrees with me), applying a rule inconsistently, in terms of interpretation and/or penalty, is wrong and it's hardly surprising that McLaren and its fans should feel aggrieved when a more stringent interpretation is applied to them, but not other teams.

As an aside, my earlier comments with regard to you were, on reflection, OTT and overly sensitive, for which I apologize.

#322 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:04

Originally posted by Anomnader


ah I see, so its only two faced behaviour when its Lewis is it, but if Kimi moans about something he has done himself its OK


No it is about breaking rules.

Which is what Hamilton have now done two races in a row, thus gotten two penalties.

Kimi did not break a rule at Monaco.

Ferarri broke a rule at Monaco and Kimi was penalized.

Kimi did not break rule at Canada.

Kimi did not break rule at France.

So Kimi have served 1 penalty. And only reaped 8 points in those 3 races, while Hamilton have reaped 10. So how is Kimi be advantaged??

:cool:

#323 postajegenye

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:05

Well done Ferrari :up:
Kimi was unlucky.
Trulli :up: :up: :up:
Kova :up: :up:
BMW is definetely slower than a few races before.
Piquet :up: :up: :up: Great work, defending his position against both McLarens and eventually beating Alonso.
Alonso I really like him, but : :down:
Hamilton: chaotic race for him, his 3rd race without points this year

The rain should have come earlier and should have been heavier...

#324 Eastern

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:06

I think Raikkonen was exceedingly lucky not to have been black flagged. That exhaust pipe was banging around for several laps, and when finally it did let go, it went off like a missile. Could have killed someone, even himself, had it gone through his rear wing. Poor show by the stewards, and I mean no ill towards Raikkonen when I say this.

#325 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:07

Originally posted by Anomnader


But what you have said is inaccurate
The problem was, he was already past him when he skipped the chicane, he didn't skip the chicane to pass theres a difference


He was able to make the pass by cutting the chicane, meaning that his braking point was that much further down the road, and he over took that way.

This is exactly the scenario that the rules are written to avoid.

Which is why he was given a drive through.

Simple fact that all drivers know the rules, the rules are the same from they start racing go-karts, in regard cutting chicanes. He knew what he did, so must face the consequences of braking the rules.

:cool:

#326 El_Capitn

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:08

Originally posted by Nadsat


Alonso just said that he had a bad start, that the car is really good with little fuel but not that good when it's loaded. He said he was losing one second per lap with his main rivals. He took the blame for the bad results of the race. "We have to get used to it: we have a lot of work to do still", he said.


Me sinks Alonso is just looking for excuse after excuse to come up with a case that'll help him break his contract with Renault. I think he had a clause in his contract tying him to the French team only if the car was good enough to win GPs toward the end of the season.

It is obvious that Renault has come up with a better car this year than last year's version, especially one that can go beyong Q2, but I opine that they will not come up with a car that'll win them GPs this year. I mean, when heavy with fuel, you can see Alonso fighting the car like a novice. Aerodynamic enhancements et al.

I'm personally of the opinion that Fernando and the team ought to concentrate on putting together a competitive car for next season rather than doing what they're doing now, which is to introduce a small enhancement hoping that that'll give them the tenths they're looking for.

And I am a Fernando Alonso fan by the way.

#327 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:09

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
Kimi did not break a rule at Monaco.


That's very debatable, but that's precisely the issue: if a situation is anything less than completely clear-cut, other teams seem to be given the benefit of the doubt, whereas McLaren appear to be consistently penalized.

#328 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:09

Originally posted by Anomnader


Nope, he had already past the Red Bull well before that point.


So you really do not understand the sport you are following then.

:cool:

#329 postajegenye

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:10

Originally posted by Eastern
Could have killed someone, even himself, had it gone through his rear wing.


What? :confused:

#330 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:11

Originally posted by HoldenRT
Does anyone know if Kimi's car passed the weigh in?


They will adjust for the lost piece.

Common practice.

:cool:

#331 Eastern

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:12

didn't you see it fly off, postajegenye?

#332 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:12

Originally posted by postajegenye


What? :confused:


Kimi's exhaust was obviously a potential danger, both to himself and other drivers, as evidenced by the fact that it did eventually fly off, thankfully when no other cars were in the vicinity. I am at a complete loss to understand why the stewards didn't force him to pit to fix the problem.

#333 Deeq

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:13

Originally posted by Eastern
didn't you see it fly off, postajegenye?


We all saw it including him but what has that got to do with your hyperbole?

#334 postajegenye

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:13

Originally posted by Eastern
didn't you see it fly off, postajegenye?


I did but I don't understand what you mean when you say it could have killed Kimi by flying through his rear wing.

#335 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:13

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

NO PENALTY, cuts the chicane to keep position...... 1:45ish
FIA :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:

#336 ilfulo

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:14

I've read through 8 pages of nonsense written by Maclaren Blind fanboys... "sad day for motorsport", are you kidding me?

The race was good, but no one has so far said the most important thing of it: The Ferrari pace was monstrous: even with a blown exhaust pipe (something that in 9 cases on 10 would lead to the retirement of the car), Raikkonen was still faster than the car behind him (Trulli in Toyota), and Ferrari's took home an hyper dominant 1-2!

This incredible and (partially) unexpected dominance by Ferrari should be the news of the day, as well as the constant failure by Hamilton when under pressure (but that's expected :rotfl:)

Also, the sudden coming back by Toyota: does it means Toyota will be fighting with BMW and Mclaren since now on?

Just my 2 cents: we're concentrating too much on a stupid race event (something that wouldnt have changed the race that much, regardless of what some say about "Hamilton being able to be 3rd if not penalyzed"... that's just RotFLMaOThxStFUbye stuff...) instead of looking at the true infos coming from the race: Ferrari got even more edge over its competitors, and it's good news for Tifosi, but bad news for Mclaren fanboys...

#337 Hammerlynx

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:14

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


They will adjust for the lost piece.

Common practice.

:cool:


From the rulebook:
"Any competitor failing to meet the minimum weight may lose their qualifying times or be excluded from the race results unless this is due to the accidental loss of part of the car."

#338 Eastern

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:14

massive failure of rear wing can make for a nasty accident - as Raikkonen has reason to know already

#339 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:15

Originally posted by postajegenye


I did but I don't understand what you mean when you say it could have killed Kimi by flying through his rear wing.


That scenario is unlikely, admittedly, but a rear wing failure at high speed through heat damage was my concern.

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#340 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:20

Originally posted by lokiman


That's very debatable, but that's precisely the issue: if a situation is anything less than completely clear-cut, other teams seem to be given the benefit of the doubt, whereas McLaren appear to be consistently penalized.


Not debatable at all.

The stewards looked in to the incident, and took no action.

He clearly did not brake a rule, and which rule are you calling him out for braking anyway? I do not recall a 'lose car under braking is not allowed" rule, when you reply please advise the actual rule number.

:cool:

#341 kar

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:23

Originally posted by Mika Mika
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

NO PENALTY, cuts the chicane to keep position...... 1:45ish
FIA :down: :down: :down: :down: :down:


had schumacher just overtaken de la rosa then used the chicane to maintain that overtaken then we would be talking about the same thing.

In this case Schumacher was leading De la Rosa steamed up the inside giving him literally nowhere to go, then he takes to going over the chicane, a lot like Hamilton did at Monza last year actually (are you complaining about that?) to maintain position.

He (Schumacher) lifted off too after the corner, something Lewis didn't do here either. I think the Schumacher incident was marginal, but benefit of the doubt since Schumacher was a) leading and b) there was no change of position due to the running off track, plus the fact Dela Rosa gave Schumacher no room.

In Hamilton's case there was a change of position due to the running off track and Hamilton was the one coming from behind with the move. He got away with it in Monza in 07, so here, he finally got the proper penalty.

#342 stormshadow

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:24

Originally posted by lokiman


That's very debatable, but that's precisely the issue: if a situation is anything less than completely clear-cut, other teams seem to be given the benefit of the doubt, whereas McLaren appear to be consistently penalized.

Was Bourdais penalised under those treacherous conditions at Monaco for ramming into a stranded David Coudlthard in almost the same place as the Kimi incident??????????????????????

Answer that please before you start calling for kimi's head!

#343 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:25

Originally posted by Hammerlynx


From the rulebook:
"Any competitor failing to meet the minimum weight may lose their qualifying times or be excluded from the race results unless this is due to the accidental loss of part of the car."


I understand that.

As I wrote.

Common practice.

This mean that a car which have lost a part will be given the weight of the lost part back. This have been the practice for as long as I recall.

It can not be compared to a car with all parts intact and still failing weight.

Beside which, I doubt that the exhaust is heavy enough to make a difference. It is a piece of steel some 12 - 14 inches long, the highest weight I would guess that piece at would be 800 grammes, and I am fairly certain that no team is running that close to the weight limit anyway.

We have in the past seen cars finish missing a wing, and they all were cleared post race scrutenieering.

:cool:

#344 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:27

Originally posted by kar


had schumacher just overtaken de la rosa then used the chicane to maintain that overtaken then we would be talking about the same thing.

In this case Schumacher was leading De la Rosa steamed up the inside giving him literally nowhere to go, then he takes to going over the chicane, a lot like Hamilton did at Monza last year actually (are you complaining about that?) to maintain position.

He (Schumacher) lifted off too after the corner, something Lewis didn't do here either.


The only way he kept position was to take the chicane, same as Lewis, rememebr Lewis had allready taken the position from vettel....

Oh BTW Schum kept that position he did not give it to De La Rosa, he jumped the chicane several more times before De La Rossa eventually sailed past....

#345 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:28

Originally posted by stormshadow
Was Bourdais penalised under those treacherous conditions at Monaco for ramming into a stranded David Coudlthard in almost the same place as the Kimi incident??????????????????????

Answer that please before you start calling for kimi's head!


Can you show me where I called for Kimi's head, please? Thanks in advance.

#346 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:30

Lazy people, can't even start a new thread post race!! I have to wade through useless FP posts just to find out from where the post race comments begin. :o

#347 Only Massa

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:30

Originally posted by airwise


He would have most likely got a podium without it. The penalty destroyed his race.



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :wave:

#348 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:31

Not debatable at all.

The stewards looked in to the incident, and took no action.


Always the hallmark of a clear-cut and just exoneration.

#349 Blueray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:33

"I don't think he gained a position by being off the road," Dennis said.

"It is our opinion he was passed before he got squeezed off the circuit. No position was gained.

There's nothing to be gained from saying anything else."


Dennis blindly defending Hamilton as usual. :lol:

#350 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:37

Originally posted by Blueray


Dennis blindly defending Hamilton as usual. :lol:


*cough* Monaco 2006 *cough* *cough* Jean Todt *cough* Ross Brawn *cough*