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Grand Prix de Magny-Cours 2008 thread


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#351 kar

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:39

Lewis got away with it here: maybe he just thinks chicanes are places where you don't really have to brake and actually follow the track.

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#352 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:41

Originally posted by kar
Lewis got away with it here: maybe he just thinks chicanes are places where you don't really have to brake and actually follow the track.


Actually what you have done there is show yet more inconsistancy form the FIA stewards....

#353 kar

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:43

He got away with it there mostly because of the touch from Massa.

But he was never going to make it there without cutting the chicane, Massa hitting him or no.

It shows you though he's more than happy to steam around the outside and brake too late with no hope of making the chicane in order to complete an overtake. An overtaking move that would not be possible without the cutting of the chicane.

He got away with it in Monza on a technicality. He got the just penalty, finally, in Magny Cours.

#354 jcbc3

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:43

No, he was pushed of by Massa. You can do better kar, please

#355 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:44

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Woooooooooooo You acuse me of being blind?!?!?!?!?!??!?

Did you even see the incident???? He WAS past vettle, then he cut the chicane, dont let your pure hatred of Ham effect your jugment....

I dont like Ham either but I am not a fool...

he was past because he didn't use the brakes in time for the line & space available for him
had there been a wall there he would have braked earlier....and guess what, maybe vettel would have defended

#356 Man of the race

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:45

Short analysis of the race:
Thank you Shell for good lubricants.

:up: for Felipe and Kimi.

Kimi was lucky again, as he was in the last race. I mean, he culd have injured somebody or himself in the last race too if he would have been able to continue, since something could have fallen off from the broken rear. What a lucky fellow, taking dominant wins into disgrace.

LOL moment of the race number one: Piquet going neutral.
LOL moment of the race number two: Piquet passing Alonso. I did not see that coming.
Does Fernando have another rookie to deal with now? Maybe Honda is more temptating now.

#357 pollocka

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:45

Originally posted by Blueray


Dennis blindly defending Hamilton as usual. :lol:


Excuse me Ron, can you explain how he could have been squeezed off if he was already past?

#358 kar

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:45

Originally posted by jcbc3
No, he was pushed of by Massa. You can do better kar, please


Pushed off? Are you kidding me? He got a tiny tap. He was _Never_ going to make that corner ahead of Massa touch or no without cutting the corner.

It was in my opinion ridiculous he got away with it in Monza, but perhaps understandable given the contact. But it shows he took from that the belief chicanes are only for the 'monkeys' and he can just not brake properly for corners with them so that he can overtake those who dare place their car ahead of his.

It's an absolute fact that if there was a wall instead of runoff Lewis could not have overtaken Vettel and have his car left with four wheels after hitting that wall. He only overtook Vettel because he did not use his brakes to take the chicane. That's the reason why despite having passed Vettel he is deserving of a penalty. He conducted an overtaking move that would not have been possible had he not cut the chicane.

#359 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:47

Tremendous pace from Kimi :up: , just bad luck to have to give the win to Massa like that. On the other hand, he had good luck after he had bad luck in that he wasn't ordered to pit or black flagged. Though I think he wishes if he didn't need that kind of 'good luck'. :cat:

Massa outpaced, but error free and fortunate to take more points than he strictly earned.

Jarno....wow. With Heikki's pressure I was just expecting him to fold or make an error, but he fought and retained his place. Good for him and Toyota.

Webber done good. :cool:

R.Kube made the most of it, as far as Heidfeld the less said the better.

Williams perhaps trying to see if they can match Force India :rolleyes: :mad:

I was surprized that the safety car was not deployed when one of the Red Bulls (?) lost about 50 square foot of its rear wing and the debris was on track for the rest of the race. Probably because there's only one line through there and it was off it, still poor form.

Mclaren employed team orders tactics to get Lewis in front of Heikki, but he got the red-mist and threw it all away with a brain fade. :down:

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#360 Only Massa

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:48

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


It is not the FIA's job to instruct that they do that.

The switching have to happen within a number of corners (think it is two), of not happened by then it becomes a penalty.

As Brundle explained, there are 3 different manners in which a penalty can be given, and Hamilton got the lightest.

It is simple, you can not straightline a chicane to make an overtaking move. Had Hamilton tried to turn in, he would either have spun of, or spun himself and Vettel of.

Penalty was clear from the second it happened and neither Lewis nor McLaren made the correct call of giving the position back.

That cost Hamliton any chance of points today.

:cool:


I completely agree. Completing a pass does not mean only putting your front tyres ahead of another car: it means passing it completely.

Putting your front tyres in front of another car, with the result of cutting the next chicane, means you've made a bad bad bad move and you have to give your position back.

Hamilton did not give it back. And got penalized. Justice has been done.

Too bad the stewards took 12 laps to issue this decision. On Italian tv they said the punishment was issued late because Ron Dennis was arguing on the radio with FIA.

If it's true, he's the usual bad loser, who tries to bend the rules and does not respect their enforcement.

#361 stormshadow

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:49

Originally posted by lokiman


Can you show me where I called for Kimi's head, please? Thanks in advance.

Well ok its not a direct referrence to you :kiss: but for anyone comparing the Kimi incident to Hamiltons current run of penalties - please answer the question relating to Bourdais-DC incident? :)

#362 jcbc3

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:51

Originally posted by kar


Pushed off? Are you kidding me? He got a tiny tap. He was _Never_ going to make that corner ahead of Massa touch or no without cutting the corner.

It was in my opinion ridiculous he got away with it in Monza, but perhaps understandable given the contact. But it shows he took from that the belief chicanes are only for the 'monkeys' and he can just not brake properly for corners with them so that he can overtake those who dare place their car ahead of his.

It's an absolute fact that if there was a wall instead of runoff Lewis could not have overtaken Vettel and have his car left with four wheels after hitting that wall. He only overtook Vettel because he did not use his brakes to take the chicane. That's the reason why despite having passed Vettel he is deserving of a penalty. He conducted an overtaking move that would not have been possible had he not cut the chicane.


No he didn't. He was pinting the direction of the road and was clearly in front of Masa, that, as you say, tapped his rear wheel to make the car snap away. He very smartly corrected the slide and continued on his way. He had no problem taking the chicane/corner. You are imagining things there. All IMHO.

(and PLEASE note that I have NOT said that todays penalty to Hamilton was wrong. I have said that the tv-pictures I was provided with on my tv feed was not conclusive evidence of a transgression)

#363 Amrl

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:51

If anyones interested, there's an app here that helps make sense of the race lap times provided by the FIA. You can zoom in/out and click on the graph to get more accurate times. Only works on standard compliant browsers such as Firefox and Safari.

#364 stormshadow

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:52

Originally posted by Only Massa

Too bad the stewards took 12 laps to issue this decision. On Italian tv they said the punishment was issued late because Ron Dennis was arguing on the radio with FIA.

If it's true, he's the usual bad loser, who tries to bend the rules and does not respect their enforcement.

yes they did show Ron arguing about something :down: Blind as friggin bats if he says they didnt gain an advantage :cat:

#365 lokiman

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:53

Originally posted by stormshadow
Well ok its not a direct referrence to you :kiss: but for anyone comparing the Kimi incident to Hamiltons current run of penalties - please answer the question relating to Bourdais-DC incident? :)


I actually wasn't comparing the incidents; I was simply opining that whether Kimi did anything wrong in Monaco was highly debatable, but I do think that the Kimi incident at Monaco was an avoidable accident for which he should have been penalized, albeit not as severely as Hamilton was penalized - quite rightly - for the pit lane debacle.

#366 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:03

Good race. Bit disappointed with Heikki though in his efforts to pass a slower Trulli. His attempts at outbreaking Jarno into the hairpin were totally pointless, and as he must have seen how badly the Toyota was suffering from wheelspin exiting the corner during the last 6 laps, I´m suprised he didn´t chose to rather position himself to take advantage of the situation. Being fast is one thing, being a racing driver quite another it would seem.

#367 BMW_F1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:07

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Good race. Bit disappointed with Heikki though in his efforts to pass a slower Trulli. His attempts at outbreaking Jarno into the hairpin were totally pointless, and as he must have seen how badly the Toyota was suffering from wheelspin exiting the corner during the last 6 laps, I´m suprised he didn´t chose to rather position himself to take advantage of the situation. Being fast is one thing, being a racing driver quite another it would seem.


Trulli was very good.. Congratulations on his podium.. :up:

#368 Man of the race

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:08

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
Being fast is one thing, being a racing driver quite another it would seem.


If to someone, that is what one should tell to Lewis Hamilton. Since Ron is incapable, maybe his papa could do that.

#369 valachus

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:10

Originally posted by jcbc3


He was pinting the direction of the road and was clearly in front of Masa, that, as you say, tapped his rear wheel to make the car snap away. He very smartly corrected the slide and continued on his way.


Right hand corner, contact between rear right wheel of one car in front and left front wheel of another behind... in which alien physics universe does it cause anything else than point the car ahead MORE, rather than LESS, on the correct trajectory?

#370 jcbc3

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:13

Originally posted by valachus


Right hand corner, contact between rear right wheel of one car in front and left front wheel of another behind... in which alien physics universe does it cause anything else than point the car ahead MORE, rather than LESS, on the correct trajectory?


Ever heard the term 'tankslapper'? Or even better. Watch the video.

#371 pacwest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:18

No casual fan here. I was actually at the last race in Montreal.

This is the first race in a long time that I actually turned off. The Hamilton/Piquet chase was actually entertaining today. I was watching some great racing. Then "racing" actually took over the entertainment aspect and a drive through was assessed. I won't debate the merit of the penalty. That's pointless here.

I will say I knew after that it was going to be a snoozer so I decided to do something else.

#372 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:28

Originally posted by pacwest
No casual fan here. I was actually at the last race in Montreal.

This is the first race in a long time that I actually turned off. The Hamilton/Piquet chase was actually entertaining today. I was watching some great racing. Then "racing" actually took over the entertainment aspect and a drive through was assessed. I won't debate the merit of the penalty. That's pointless here.

I will say I knew after that it was going to be a snoozer so I decided to do something else.


Actually there was some great action, there really way, but i agree the penalty was very unfair...

#373 inca_roads

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:28

Originally posted by Only Massa


Too bad the stewards took 12 laps to issue this decision. On Italian tv they said the punishment was issued late because Ron Dennis was arguing on the radio with FIA.

If it's true, he's the usual bad loser, who tries to bend the rules and does not respect their enforcement.


You might want to check some of the reactions of your guy's team over the last few years when they've been faced with a losing situation before calling RD a "usual bad loser" :rolleyes:

#374 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:29

Originally posted by Amrl
If anyones interested, there's an app here that helps make sense of the race lap times provided by the FIA. You can zoom in/out and click on the graph to get more accurate times. Only works on standard compliant browsers such as Firefox and Safari.


Very cool thanks!!! :up: :up: :up: :up:

#375 Only Massa

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:30

Originally posted by Anomnader


stop being a trouble causer.


Are speaking to me? Or maybe to Hamilton??? :kiss:

#376 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:33

Originally posted by Torch
Difficult decision especially as we only have the inboard camera to go on.


Actually a very easy decision.

If Louise had passed the car, he could have taken the normal line by staying on track and not felt the need to cheat by cutting across in front. We can safely say that a passing attempt was initiated, but it wasn't completed. Not legally.

Fair penalty.

#377 Only Massa

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:34

Originally posted by inca_roads


You might want to check some of the reactions of your guy's team over the last few years when they've been faced with a losing situation before calling RD a "usual bad loser" :rolleyes:


oh, I checked thoroughly (not as Ron Dennis did for Ferrari IP in his team...). And it seems to me that for being a loser you actually have to lose.

And for sure Ron Dennis has not won a single Championship since 1999. Jeand Todt on the other hand is one of the most winning team-managers of F1.

So, who's the perpetual loser, always whining?

(anyway, stop bothering me, because we're going off-topic, while my first comment was on topic)

#378 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:35

Originally posted by primer


Actually a very easy decision.

If Louise had passed the car, he could have taken the normal line by staying on track and not felt the need to cheat by cutting across in front. We can safely say that a passing attempt was initiated, but it wasn't completed. Not legally.

Fair penalty.


First you call him Louise
Then you go onabout "felt the need to cheat" as if he predetermined that he was going to cut the chicane

Sorry, can't you act your age.

#379 bond

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:36

Originally posted by primer


Actually a very easy decision.

If Louise had passed the car, he could have taken the normal line by staying on track and not felt . We can safely say that a passing attempt was initiated, but it wasn't completed. Not legally.

Fair penalty.


Her didn't felt the need to cheat. Stop lying.
He was going too fast....
Amazing how some of you hate the guy so much...
Get a life, there's more than bashing hamilton...

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#380 Only Massa

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:40

Originally posted by Anomnader


First you call him Louise
Then you go onabout "felt the need to cheat" as if he predetermined that he was going to cut the chicane

Sorry, can't you act your age.


And it seems you can't stop making personal attacks on an F1 board.

Please, discuss about people's comments and not about people's identity. It's called respect.

#381 Lada Lover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:42

Trulli is my driver of the race. :up:

Massa was gifted a win. Kimi had him beat even without Hamilton slowing Massa's low fuel lap.

Red Bulls were strong as were TR. Unlucky for Bourdais.

Honda and Williams had a bad weekend.

#382 pacwest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:47

Originally posted by Anomnader


First you call him Louise
Then you go onabout "felt the need to cheat" as if he predetermined that he was going to cut the chicane

Sorry, can't you act your age.


Exactly why I won't debate the penalty here.

#383 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:48

Originally posted by Anomnader
Sorry, can't you act your age.


My reptilian brain feels the need to act childishly when I see all these Mcjehadis beating their chest and wailing about unfair penalties and such. Stop breaking the rules, and you won't get the penalty. Mclaren, Ferrari or any other team. Easy enough.

#384 jokuvaan

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:49

When Hamilton got zero points the day wasnt so bad for Kimi in the end.

#385 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:52

Originally posted by pacwest


Exactly why I won't debate the penalty here.


There's nothing to debate or even argue about. Just because some people do not like the result does not mean something 'wrong' happened, although they might delude themselves such.

#386 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:52

Originally posted by primer


My reptilian brain feels the need to act childishly when I see all these Mcjehadis beating their chest and wailing about unfair penalties and such. Stop breaking the rules, and you won't get the penalty. Mclaren, Ferrari or any other team. Easy enough.


Breaking rules and getting penaltys very much depend on the whims of stewards, in this thread many other instances have being pointed out and have gone scott free. There is a lack of consistancy.

#387 eoin

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:55

Originally posted by primer


Actually a very easy decision.

If Louise had passed the car, he could have taken the normal line by staying on track and not felt the need to cheat by cutting across in front. We can safely say that a passing attempt was initiated, but it wasn't completed. Not legally.

Fair penalty.


I agree with your point, but it could use less flame-bait.

#388 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:55

Originally posted by jokuvaan
When Hamilton got zero points the day wasnt so bad for Kimi in the end.


Yes, but when these things happen it seems that he and Massa are taking points from each other whereas Lewis has made Mclaren all his own (to his credit). Frankly more than the points, it was the manner in which Kimi pulled away initally that was so breathtaking; he really deserved a better recognition than a P2.

Not that it matters to Ferrari in WCC. All 1-2s are good, irrespective of order.

#389 mursuka80

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:56

Originally posted by Anomnader


Breaking rules and getting penaltys very much depend on the whims of stewards, in this thread many other instances have being pointed out and have gone scott free. There is a lack of consistancy.


Same could be said about Football :up: Eurochamps been good example

#390 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:57

My five cents worth on penalties:
Hamilton, Canada: Deserved, Kovalainen, France: Not Deserved, Hamilton, Canada: Deserved. He should have handed the place back. But I don't think things were helped by the fact the unilateral TV feed was on Hamilton's on-car camera at the time. I sometimes wonder if penalties are handed with greater weight to the indiscretions the viewing public has witnessed.

#391 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:59

Originally posted by mursuka80


Same could be said about Football :up: Eurochamps been good example


Well yes, totally agree, but that should be a thumbs down not up, there has being some disgraceful decisions.

#392 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:00

Originally posted by Anomnader


Breaking rules and getting penaltys very much depend on the whims of stewards, in this thread many other instances have being pointed out and have gone scott free. There is a lack of consistancy.


Sp pile on the pressure on FIA to make sure all are punished fairly, rather than implying something illegal happened with Lewis' penalty.

I am just wondering if the lashing the stewards got from Ronald had anything to do with them taking a more 'hands-off' approach for the rest of the race?:
I have already said in the other thread that Kimster should have been flagged today. No one can go back 10 years and change all those FIA decisions that someone or the other feels were unfair. Arguing against a fair penalty does not strengthen the case either.

Bloody incompetent stewards :down:

#393 Tolyngee

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:03

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

he was past because he didn't use the brakes in time for the line & space available for him
had there been a wall there he would have braked earlier....and guess what, maybe vettel would have defended


Good point, just like here:



Had a wall been there, Lewis wouldn't have attempted (or accomplished, anyway) the pass at Monza, or the pass today...

This is just a result of F1 doing away with sandtraps/grass at chicanes...

CART came up with the rule after Zanardi passed Herta in '96 at the corkscrew that to COMPLETE a pass, all four wheels cannot leave the track...

http://youtube.com/w...feature=related

#394 pacwest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:07

Originally posted by Anomnader


Breaking rules and getting penaltys very much depend on the whims of stewards, in this thread many other instances have being pointed out and have gone scott free. There is a lack of consistancy.


Rule enforcement is mostly subjective. Penalties are subjective. Human elements are involved.

Jump start sensor. Objective.
Look how tennis fared after they implemented line sensors. Objective.
Bowling has line sensors. Objective.
Pit lane speed sensor. Objective.

Simplified yes, but people cannot argue that the "lines" if F1 are not clearly, decisively drawn. Humans MUST make a call at some point as we are NOT perfect.








*edited you to people so that it did not seem to point at the Quoted.

#395 prxty

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:10

Originally posted by Man of the race
Short analysis of the race:
Thank you Shell for good lubricants.

:up: for Felipe and Kimi.

Kimi was lucky again, as he was in the last race. I mean, he culd have injured somebody or himself in the last race too if he would have been able to continue, since something could have fallen off from the broken rear. What a lucky fellow, taking dominant wins into disgrace.

LOL moment of the race number one: Piquet going neutral.
LOL moment of the race number two: Piquet passing Alonso. I did not see that coming.
Does Fernando have another rookie to deal with now? Maybe Honda is more temptating now.


Do you what happens if you speak without having seen it? You get it wrong.
Alonso went long in the corner because he was lapping a driver on the outside and he did not see him. Having to commit to the inside in order to avoid a crash. He went long and Piquet overtook him.
This is so absurd as if you consider the error of Webber as Alonso overtaking Webber.
But absurdity is not so unknown for you.

#396 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:14

I don't disagree, but there does seem to be more human errors occuring in regards to other teams except a certain other one ;-)

#397 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:17

Originally posted by primer


My reptilian brain feels the need to act childishly when I see all these Mcjehadis beating their chest and wailing about unfair penalties and such. Stop breaking the rules, and you won't get the penalty. Mclaren, Ferrari or any other team. Easy enough.


:rotfl: :rotfl: Quite right.

#398 bond

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:26

You can see clearly that he din't go straight on the chicane.
He made the right turn and it's when he's going to the left that he loses the rear...
Before he entered the chicane he was in front of vettel...



#399 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:29

Kimi was awesome today and so was Massa. Massa was in position to capitalize so congrats to him. When Kimi is fueled light and doesn't make a mistake in qualifying he is obviously as good as anyone. And its obvious he has the best race craft on the grid. He also set up the fastest lap again so that's like 4 in a row I believe and is like 1 behind for 2nd or 3rd all time. Im quite happy for Trulli as well.

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#400 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:32

Originally posted by bond
You can see clearly that he din't go straight on the chicane.
He made the right turn and it's when he's going to the left that he loses the rear...
Before he entered the chicane he was in front of vettel...


Even my lovely wife, who knows F all about F 1 said, "Oooh, he wasn´t even thinking about taking that corner".
That said it all IMO.