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Grand Prix de Magny-Cours 2008 thread


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#401 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:39

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


Even my lovely wife, who knows F all about F 1 said, "Oooh, he wasn´t even thinking about taking that corner".
That said it all IMO.



:rotfl:

yeah right

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#402 EVO2

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:40

I'm with Martin Brundle on this.

I doubt whether a Ferrari driver would have received a penalty in these circumstances.

And I'll go further - KR should have been black flagged. Had that piece of wire broken in another place the flailing piece of metal could easily have killed another driver, a marshall or even a spectator. We all saw how far it flew.

It was irresponsible of Ferrari to have left the car on the circuit and even more irresponsible not too have cut the wire and remove the pipe during the pitstop. Just how long does it take to cut an electrical cable ?

#403 kar

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:49

Watching the replay of the incident, Lewis says he 'lost the back of the car'. The fact is he was understeering over the chicane before he starts to counter steer to correct the loss of rear traction.

And the reason he lost the rear of the car anyway was because he didn't brake enough for the chicane.

So he was, never in a month of sundays going to make that chicane, and the only way he managed to overtake Vettel was by virtue of going off track.

Had he braked sufficiently to take the corner Vettel would have had the inside line and hence the corner.

The penalty in that context is very much justified.

#404 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:56

Originally posted by kar
Watching the replay of the incident, Lewis says he 'lost the back of the car'. The fact is he was understeering over the chicane before he starts to counter steer to correct the loss of rear traction.

And the reason he lost the rear of the car anyway was because he didn't brake enough for the chicane.

So he was, never in a month of sundays going to make that chicane, and the only way he managed to overtake Vettel was by virtue of going off track.

Had he braked sufficiently to take the corner Vettel would have had the inside line and hence the corner.

The penalty in that context is very much justified.


As I said Kar, even my wife worked that one out. :lol:

#405 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:01

Originally posted by kar

And the reason he lost the rear of the car anyway was because he didn't brake enough for the chicane.

So he was, never in a month of sundays going to make that chicane, and the only way he managed to overtake Vettel was by virtue of going off track.


:up: Agreed. He should have handed back the place at the next corner. If he'd been pushed off by another car jinking around on the first lap, a different story, but it was an unforced mistake which he shouldn't have benefitted from.

#406 Deeq

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:02

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer


As I said Kar, even my wife worked that one out. :lol:


Yeah, Because..well your wife is perhaps a latent Ferrari or worse ze punishment fan...;) :lol:

#407 pingu666

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:11

wonder if the team radio'ed the fia and asked if it was ok, they said yes then later changed there minds...

disapointing race tho, we expected fireworks and we got a f1 race :(

#408 Lada Lover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:24

Originally posted by nada12
So what happens to Kimi's engine? Would be a shame if he got a penalty at the next race for changing


You can fix an engine to a certain extent, you just can't replace the engine. There will be no penalty to Kimi.

#409 Lada Lover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:42

Originally posted by primer
Lazy people, can't even start a new thread post race!! I have to wade through useless FP posts just to find out from where the post race comments begin. :o


Page 3. or June 22nd.

#410 coyoteBR

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:44

I think the call on kimi this race was much worse than the decision on Lewis. Kimi should be demanded to stop and fix the car; not be blackflaged, like some called, but a mandatory stop. What Hamilton did was somehow subjective, open to interpretations; a safety hazard is not.
:down: on ignoring a car falling apart on track.

#411 mursuka80

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:45

Originally posted by Lada Lover


You can fix an engine to a certain extent, you just can't replace the engine. There will be no penalty to Kimi.


You get one engine change for free this year :up:

#412 Lada Lover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:47

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


It's called racing and Trulli said that they did not touch.

:cool:


I still cringed. Trulli was not going to let a podium escape him this time at Magny.

#413 Scotracer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:49

Originally posted by mursuka80


You get one engine change for free this year :up:


Which he got in Australia ;)

#414 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:56

Originally posted by bond
You can see clearly that he din't go straight on the chicane.
He made the right turn and it's when he's going to the left that he loses the rear...
Before he entered the chicane he was in front of vettel...

:rotfl: :rotfl:
not quite
he made the right turn way too quick...
he has a pedal, on the left foot, to use in case you ar etoo quick...of course, that would have meant vettel was staying in front

#415 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:57

Originally posted by Scotracer


Which he got in Australia ;)

he DNF'ed in australia

#416 bobqzzi

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:06

Originally posted by EVO2
I'm with Martin Brundle on this.

snip

And I'll go further - KR should have been black flagged. Had that piece of wire broken in another place the flailing piece of metal could easily have killed another driver, a marshall or even a spectator. We all saw how far it flew.

It was irresponsible of Ferrari to have left the car on the circuit and even more irresponsible not too have cut the wire and remove the pipe during the pitstop. Just how long does it take to cut an electrical cable ?

No, don't be silly. It was a short piece of .040" wall titanium and weighed well under a pound. There was no chance it was going to kill or injure anyone. Did you notice when it finally flew off how it shot skyward? That's because it is so light compaed to its surface area. There never was any danger.

#417 fer312t

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:09

Why wasn't Lewis immediately told to let Vettel by after the corner cutting...rather than stewards waiting and imposing a race compromising drive-thru penalty...???

Thoroughly silly I thought...

#418 rolf123

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:16

Lewis what a fool. Sure, he was maybe a foot in front of Vettel but that is not enough to own the corner that has such a fast entry and only has one line. Can you imagine taking 130R at Suzuka around the outside but only being a foot ahead? Witness Mansell and Alesi for what real racers know about when to concede and when not to.

He even knew it himself but was unwilling to slow down and concede the corner, hence why he straightlined it. And yet he claims to have wanted to take an "outside line" when there is only one line in the corner??

The simple thing to do, if in doubt, is to immediately concede the place. What a fool. And that's not even mentioning the brain fade of running into his teammate!

#419 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:22

Originally posted by fer312t
Why wasn't Lewis immediately told to let Vettel by after the corner cutting


Doesn't everyone in F1 know this? What is there to 'tell'? For all we know Mclaren told him on radio after a few corners but Mr. Hamilton was too perfect to acknowledge an error of judgement. Or perhaps they decided to press their luck.

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#420 bond

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:24

Originally posted by primer


Doesn't everyone in F1 know this? What is there to 'tell'? For all we know Mclaren told him on radio after a few corners but Mr. Hamilton was too perfect to acknowledge an error of judgement. Or perhaps they decided to press their luck.


Again you're lying.
McLaren were discussing with Fia the penalty, that's why it took so many laps for him to take the penalty.

#421 Aubwi

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:26

Moderately entertaining race, but as has become far too common in F1, the best wheel-to-wheel moments were ruined by the silly S-curves with paved aprons. Those really need to go. :down:

#422 BMW_F1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:28

On the penultimate lap, Kova tried the exact same move on Trulli and ran wide also. There is no way in hell that a driver can grab so much speed on that straight get to the outside of another car and make a clean pass without cutting chicane. It is just impossible.. For that to work either Vettel or Trulli would have had to lift and why would they?

#423 BMW_F1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:31

I really like the race.. Alonso was entertaining to watch recovering that position from Kubica at the start.. Piquet was too making a move on Glock and more importantly blocking the Mclarens.. Lewis made a sweet pass on Alonso... Trulli was the man today.. :up:
Did anyone else watch Webber how he saved his car after that spin that almost put him in the wall..?
And what happened to Piquet at the exit of the pits giving his position to Kovalainen?

#424 jcbc3

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:32

Because there was another car that they according to the rules must leave space? And no, that is not up for discussion. That IS in the rules.



(I am not claiming this to be the case here. I still don't know if the penalty was merited based on the pictorial evidence I have seen)

#425 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:32

Originally posted by BMW_F1
On the penultimate lap, Kova tried the exact same move on Trulli and ran wide also. There is no way in hell that a driver can grab so much speed on that straight get to the outside of another car and make a clean pass without cutting chicane. It is just impossible..


Wasn't the Trulli/Kovalainen scrap heading into the next chicane?

#426 Man of the race

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:39

Originally posted by prxty
Do you what happens if you speak without having seen it? You get it wrong. Alonso went long in the corner because he was lapping a driver on the outside and he did not see him. Having to commit to the inside in order to avoid a crash. He went long and Piquet overtook him. This is so absurd as if you consider the error of Webber as Alonso overtaking Webber. But absurdity is not so unknown for you.


What I did not see was Piquet being capable to overtake Alonso - before he did. I saw the pass very well, thank you. It stays on my mind. Nelsinho was a fighter today.

#427 MS KR

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:40

quote of the race,

"Raikkonen is just changing radio station, he is totally in control" Martin Brundle.

#428 BMW_F1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:42

Originally posted by potmotr


Wasn't the Trulli/Kovalainen scrap heading into the next chicane?


I think it was the same one. The point is two cars could not have gone side by side through that turn on the circuit. Vettel was on his line and Lewis ran out of room and no where else to go. Unfair advantage if at the end he come ahead. Lewis could have easily lift and make the turn but he didn't lift and that's why he ran wide.

#429 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:53

Originally posted by Mika Mika


Actually what you have done there is show yet more inconsistancy form the FIA stewards....


This was a completely different scenario.

He made the pass, made the turn and was pushed of by Massa.

So no inconsistency there.

They simply apply the rules when a rule is broken.

:cool:

#430 rolf123

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:55

Originally posted by bond


Again you're lying.
McLaren were discussing with Fia the penalty, that's why it took so many laps for him to take the penalty.


huh? Then why did Ron Dennis give a vague answer when Ted Kravitz asked him about it? btw Lewis took the penalty as soon as it was given.

#431 bond

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:56

Originally posted by rolf123


huh? Then why did Ron Dennis give a vague answer when Ted Kravitz asked him about it? btw Lewis took the penalty as soon as it was given.


But it was many laps after it happened. That's what i'm saying...

#432 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:01

Originally posted by BMW_F1


I think it was the same one. The point is two cars could not have gone side by side through that turn on the circuit. Vettel was on his line and Lewis ran out of room and no where else to go. Unfair advantage if at the end he come ahead. Lewis could have easily lift and make the turn but he didn't lift and that's why he ran wide.

I´m not sure why you bother to discuss this point. It was evident to a blind man that Lewis made another blunder. Poor old Potmotr. He will defend Lewis to the bitter end, no matter what.
That old tune where the singer wails, "blinded by the light", comes to mind. :rotfl:

#433 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:02

Originally posted by jokuvaan
When Hamilton got zero points the day wasnt so bad for Kimi in the end.


No but Kimi most arguably lost at least 6 points in Canada through ill advised rule breaking by Hamilton, six points which would have made him the WDC leader after today, and 6 points which may be important at the end of the season.

Racing incidents happen, and all drivers experience them.

Lewis drove like he was not watching or listening in Canada, and that is not something that other drivers should be paying for. I want the championship to be won based on battles on track, not based on drivers braking the rules in the pits, especially not one of the most cardinal rules.

Red flag (red lights are a flag) mean STOP.

When I started racing go-karts, our instructor was testing us by showing the red flag from different positions on track, as well as the pits.

If seeing it on track it meant maintain position and go very very very slowly back to the pits, unless it is a waved red flag, then you pull in to the side and stop immediately.

That is how they are all to react to the red flag, and no matter how many things that Lewis state he has to do during a pit-stop, one of his prime concerns should be not to brake the rules.

:cool:

#434 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:06

Originally posted by EVO2
I'm with Martin Brundle on this.

I doubt whether a Ferrari driver would have received a penalty in these circumstances.

And I'll go further - KR should have been black flagged. Had that piece of wire broken in another place the flailing piece of metal could easily have killed another driver, a marshall or even a spectator. We all saw how far it flew.

It was irresponsible of Ferrari to have left the car on the circuit and even more irresponsible not too have cut the wire and remove the pipe during the pitstop. Just how long does it take to cut an electrical cable ?


Kimi would NEVER have been black flagged for the exhaust.

He could at most have been shown the black and orange flag, directing him to the pits for a repair.

:cool:

#435 BMW_F1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:07

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer

I´m not sure why you bother to discuss this point. It was evident to a blind man that Lewis made another blunder. Poor old Potmotr. He will defend Lewis to the bitter end, no matter what.
That old tune where the singer wails, "blinded by the light", comes to mind. :rotfl:


I know, some people are really annoying with their views and conspiracy theories crap..

#436 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:11

Originally posted by pingu666
wonder if the team radio'ed the fia and asked if it was ok, they said yes then later changed there minds...

disapointing race tho, we expected fireworks and we got a f1 race :(


McLaren and the stewards discussed the issue at length.

McLaren would not let Vettle past again, or at least did not instruct Lewis to give it back.

The stewards stated that he should have, and since he did not he would get one of the 3 penalties that the rules make it possible to give.

The stewards decided that the easiest penalty should apply.

The delay in giving / serving the penalty was due to McLaren arguing the penalty, a right that they have, and as soon as the arguments were over, the penalty is advised in the manner which the rules state they have to be.

1) A message on the McLaren monitors.

2) A hand written note send to McLaren pitwall.

3) An official statement from the stewards, I believe that the driver then have 3 laps before he have to enter the pits to serve the penalty.

Pretty straight forward and all by the books of how a transgression is handled, and penalty handed out.

:cool:

#437 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:13

Originally posted by Lada Lover


I still cringed. Trulli was not going to let a podium escape him this time at Magny.


Maybe I should have called it hard racing.

Had Schumacher or Montoya done this, no one would ever have thought of calling for a penalty. None was called for in my view, Trulli drove a very fine race today. As did Kovalainen, all his troubles considered.



:cool:

#438 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:24

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM


As did Kovalainen, all his troubles considered.



:cool:


Can´t agree. I thought Heikki showed poor race craft. He should have beaten Trulli today, but didn´t.

#439 Johny Bravo

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:09

Originally posted by MikeTekRacing

:rotfl: :rotfl:
not quite
he made the right turn way too quick...
he has a pedal, on the left foot, to use in case you ar etoo quick...of course, that would have meant vettel was staying in front


LEW1S is not very keen on using that lefty pedal, as one could easily note in Canada.

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#440 Johny Bravo

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:11

Originally posted by fer312t
Why wasn't Lewis immediately told to let Vettel by after the corner cutting...rather than stewards waiting and imposing a race compromising drive-thru penalty...???

Thoroughly silly I thought...


Maybe he was told. Just as in Canada.

But he thought: I'm LEW1S, the new Senna, as cool as Raikkonen. So stayed in front.

#441 Panch

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:22

Posted Image


Doesn´t look quite happy!

#442 Johny Bravo

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:25

Originally posted by Panch
Doesn´t look quite happy!


Just thinking: "oh shit, the LEW1S book, t-shirt and white wine has to suffer another slump in sales."

#443 Menace

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:34

Originally posted by Anomnader


I agree that is certainly highly probably, thou not conclusive and if you read the post from another forum further up, MS was allowed to get away with this.


Rules change from season to season. Apples and Oranges my friend. I thought Mclaren would tell Lewis to give the position back, and when it didn't happen I expected to see the inevitable penalty.

#444 eoin

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:35

Originally posted by fer312t
Why wasn't Lewis immediately told to let Vettel by after the corner cutting...rather than stewards waiting and imposing a race compromising drive-thru penalty...???

Thoroughly silly I thought...


I think that DC passed Vettel soon after the incident.

#445 Raelene

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:35

I think the penalty was a bit questionable . He had already passed, however did he know he was going to have to cut the chicance to make the pass stick. Had I been LH and McLaren, I would have played safe and give the position back

I think he should have been given the benefit of the doubt.

Agreed, KR should have been called in. Luckily the exhaust came off when there wasn't anyone behind

#446 rolf123

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:37

Originally posted by Panch
Posted Image


Doesn´t look quite happy!


It was hilarious when that happened. Of course, Lewis' Dad could see himself on the main TV feed too. But what's he supposed to do other than wait until the camera has changed.

#447 Clatter

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:48

Originally posted by bobqzzi

No, don't be silly. It was a short piece of .040" wall titanium and weighed well under a pound. There was no chance it was going to kill or injure anyone. Did you notice when it finally flew off how it shot skyward? That's because it is so light compaed to its surface area. There never was any danger.


Yeah right. Now imagine you are doing 180mph and that lump of metal is flying towards your head. Do you in all honesty believe that that does not constitute a danger?

#448 nigelrolls

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 22:06

Originally posted by Anomnader


Breaking rules and getting penaltys very much depend on the whims of stewards, in this thread many other instances have being pointed out and have gone scott free. There is a lack of consistancy.


Couldn't there be a more objective corner cutting rule along the following lines:
1. If car A cuts the corner and is behind or less than * in front of car B at a distance * before the corner and A is ahead of B at a distance * after the corner, then A is deemed to have taken or kept a place by cutting the corner and has to give the place back unless B has committed one of violations 2-3.
2. B has cut the corner.
3. B has not kept out of a lane of width * when going round the corner, and so is deemed to have forced A off the track; the lane should be left on the side that the corner is cut.

The dimensions to be inserted in place of the `*'s could depend on the particular corner and probably should be chosen to make the rule work in a similar way to the current rule.

During the race, compliance could be measured electronically and drivers could be informed; the stewards could still overrule the electronics if something weird happened, but could, in any case, inform the drivers of the decision quickly, so that car A could give the place back, if required.

Thus drivers and teams would not be tested for their ability as lawyers and the position on the track would be more closely related to the advantaged a car has in the race, making the spectacle easier to follow for those who ultimately pay for it.

Yacht racing has greatly improved itself as a spectator sport by replacing post-race protest argument and disqualification with immediate and proportionate penalties of 360 degree turns. F1 has room to improve in this direction.

#449 pingu666

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 22:35

given how hard it is to overtake in f1 now, pretty easy to see why lewis kept his foot on the go faster peddle...

#450 Lada Lover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 22:42

The exhaust pipe is made from inconel which is a nickel based alloy. It was probablt too hot to remove safely and someone in the Ferrari pit would have been burned.

The super collider is going to accelerate .026 cubic mm of hydrogen to a speed where it has the same kinetic energy as the TGV going 180 kph. Some scientists are going to court to have the test stopped as the whole of the Earth could be destroyed. Stuff happens.