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Totally annoyed with current motor racing


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#1 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 12:33

What do we have in motor sport at the moment?

We have the leading single seater formula in the United States being seen as a feeder for stock car racing. The reigning champion can't qualify above 38th in a 43 car field.

In that stock car formula we have everybody driving the exact same car, with stickers on to fool the Great Unwashed into thinking that there's something different. And they don't finish the race at the right distance if they want to contrive a finish, they just throw out a green-white finish.

Meanwhile, in every form of motor racing we have safety cars put out whenever someone looks a bit dominant. With the result that more and more accidents therefore occur as the cars are artificially bunched back up.

The "world" touring car championship is emasculated by making the best drivers have heavier cars. Can't let the best man win, can we?

In rallying the whole ethos of the sport is replaced by some minor time trialling, where if you wreck your car you can still rejoin later.

And in Formula 1 - the "peak" of the sport - we have a governing body and officials that are almost patently in the pocket of one team. Willing to change regulations when they are not dominant, willing to penalize other drivers who dare to combat them, willing to overlook illegalities on their cars when it would cost them a race.

We have the farcical circumstance where a driver is penalized more for being on the track at the wrong time than deliberately trying to take out an opponent. Based, it appears, solely on the logo on the nose of the car.

You're not even allowed to overtake. F1 forced to race on pathetic circuits that don't allow for overtaking and when a driver does he is given a drive-through.

When a driver is tigering, when you see it up close, you do see the whole point of the sport. But the coverage doesn't allow for this. And you can't get it in person because you're corralled a mile away away with sweaty Ferraristas from Basingstoke who wouldn't know Gilles Villeneuve from a roasted peanut.

It's pathetic. Manipulated. Rigged.

It has often been like this in the past. These days though it is endemic.

Yet I still watch it. : Addicted? Probably.

Thank God for Le Mans. Easily the best race of the year. Genuine drama rather than the fiction that is other top-line motor racing.

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#2 mursuka80

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 12:39

Originally posted by ensign14
What do we have in motor sport at the moment?

We have the leading single seater formula in the United States being seen as a feeder for stock car racing. The reigning champion can't qualify above 38th in a 43 car field.

In that stock car formula we have everybody driving the exact same car, with stickers on to fool the Great Unwashed into thinking that there's something different. And they don't finish the race at the right distance if they want to contrive a finish, they just throw out a green-white finish.

Meanwhile, in every form of motor racing we have safety cars put out whenever someone looks a bit dominant. With the result that more and more accidents therefore occur as the cars are artificially bunched back up.

The "world" touring car championship is emasculated by making the best drivers have heavier cars. Can't let the best man win, can we?

In rallying the whole ethos of the sport is replaced by some minor time trialling, where if you wreck your car you can still rejoin later.

And in Formula 1 - the "peak" of the sport - we have a governing body and officials that are almost patently in the pocket of one team. Willing to change regulations when they are not dominant, willing to penalize other drivers who dare to combat them, willing to overlook illegalities on their cars when it would cost them a race.

We have the farcical circumstance where a driver is penalized more for being on the track at the wrong time than deliberately trying to take out an opponent. Based, it appears, solely on the logo on the nose of the car.

You're not even allowed to overtake. F1 forced to race on pathetic circuits that don't allow for overtaking and when a driver does he is given a drive-through.

When a driver is tigering, when you see it up close, you do see the whole point of the sport. But the coverage doesn't allow for this. And you can't get it in person because you're corralled a mile away away with sweaty Ferraristas from Basingstoke who wouldn't know Gilles Villeneuve from a roasted peanut.

It's pathetic. Manipulated. Rigged.

It has often been like this in the past. These days though it is endemic.

Yet I still watch it. : Addicted? Probably.

Thank God for Le Mans. Easily the best race of the year. Genuine drama rather than the fiction that is other top-line motor racing.


Sour grapes eh? Come on you cut a chicane =penalty. Its same for everybody

#3 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 12:42

Until I read your last line I was going to say 'But what about Le Mans!!!'.
I've been to Formula One, Le Mans and DTM races so far this year, and the only one I was bored with was the DTM. Discard the sick FIA president who gets sexual gratification from the death of six million Jews, and I think F1 has never been so good. A large part of the field separated by less than a second. A close championship. 2008 is so much better than 2000 - 2005 and endless tedious Schumacher and Ferrari domination.

#4 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 12:46

It's artificial closeness though. I'd rather see drivers visibly on the edge and dominating than everyone well within their cars' capabilities.

#5 Clatter

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 12:48

Originally posted by mursuka80


Sour grapes eh? Come on you cut a chicane =penalty. Its same for everybody


That's the problem, it isnt the same for everyone. There are plenty of examples where drivers have not been penalised for far worse.

#6 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 12:49

Originally posted by ensign14
It's artificial closeness though. I'd rather see drivers visibly on the edge and dominating than everyone well within their cars' capabilities.


At risk of not seeming like a purist, I'd far rather we had closer racing. The Schumacher years had me questioning my faith...

#7 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:04

The races we're watching now are no better, you just have a reorganised podium every two weekends.

#8 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:06

I don't want to comment on an individual event, because people will invariably see it as sour grapes. However, on afternoons like this, it's hard not to be disillusioned with the direction of motorsport. All I want is for them to be able to string a few grand prix together where all the talking points are on-track brilliance, not yet more "off-track" bureaucracy. In that, LeMans was refreshing. Twenty four hours of racing, and not one moment of it ruined by the stewards needing to get involved.

#9 Ali_G

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:08

IN Europe at least, viewing figures for all forms of motorsport seem to be dropping

It wasn't too many years ago where ratings for live WRC and BTCC coverage were fairly high.

#10 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:24

Originally posted by MrAerodynamicist
All I want is for them to be able to string a few grand prix together where all the talking points are on-track brilliance, not yet more "off-track" bureaucracy.

And even that's limited. If we look at the Hamilton incident today a bit differently, one of the things that you could not do in the past was "off-track" it. There's far too much leeway for driver errors nowadays.

But it has to be like that, if you try to pull off a move drivers are now allowed to pretty much weave to stop overtaking. Another legacy of favouring a particular team.

#11 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:35

Originally posted by ensign14

But it has to be like that, if you try to pull off a move drivers are now allowed to pretty much weave to stop overtaking. Another legacy of favouring a particular team.

Point proved by Trulli barging Kova off track just now.

#12 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:35

Originally posted by Ali_G

It wasn't too many years ago where ratings for live WRC and BTCC coverage were fairly high.


I'd be willing to return to watching the WRC when there are more manufacturers and more top line drivers.
And I'd be willing to return watching the BTCC when they have decent looking cars, not awful shoppig trollies.

#13 Ali_G

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:37

Originally posted by ensign14

Point proved by Trulli barging Kova off track just now.


What point ?

The Stewards haven't decided anything yet.

#14 MrAerodynamicist

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:42

Originally posted by ensign14
And even that's limited.

MotoGP. You can pretty much guarentee that'll be about the positive things that happens ontrack without the need to get the stewards & the rule book involved.

#15 LB

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:45

Originally posted by potmotr


I'd be willing to return to watching the WRC when there are more manufacturers and more top line drivers.
And I'd be willing to return watching the BTCC when they have decent looking cars, not awful shoppig trollies.


Ditto from me on that - BTCC cars are absolutely horrible to look at though the racing has actually been ok in the few races I have seen.

#16 SeanValen

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:47

The problem also is, perhaps racing has evolved too much for it's own good, we've seen the best examples of drivers, tracks and cars already, the best races, best strategy stuff, will there be another Schumacher, Senna, probabley not, maybe also for some of us, we've grown old watching what we think is the best stuff, so alot of series that have watered down may still appeal to some younger generation who don't get what were talking about when Senna did this, or Schumacher did that amazing stuff, or when Prost and Mansell did this, Schumi-Hakkinen did that etc



Today Massa won at a track that Kimi is always good at, nothing amazing about it, but James Allen had to call Massa's drive a incrediable victory :p : Disappointing really, what we really needed was more rain so perhaps Kimi could catch up through his exhaust problem, because Kimi is just always faster and better at this track then Massa.


Personally since Schumacher's retirement, there's not even a racing genius on track to study, something I think f1 was very lucky to have after Senna's death.

Lewis Hamilton is not the superstar Schumacher was quite yet, people would tune into Schumacher and realised they were watching the best, so made the most of it, like him or hated him, he was just a giant for f1 and a huge plus for motorsport, the world's best driver, now it's just no one to lead and set the example, even when the rules are not all there, yence it's pretty messed up.

#17 DoubleWDC

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:51

Originally posted by SeanValen

will there be another Schumacher, Senna, probabley not, maybe also for some of us, we've grown old watching what we think is the best stuff, so alot of series that have watered down may still appeal to some younger generation who don't get what were talking about when Senna did this, or Schumacher did that amazing stuff, or when Prost and Mansell did this, Schumi-Hakkinen did


There's no proof whatsoever that previous generations were better than this one. If we take other sports the competition gets better all the time and records shatter. In F1 everything is masked by equipment.

#18 SlateGray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:53

Originally posted by ensign14
What do we have in motor sport at the moment?

We have the leading single seater formula in the United States being seen as a feeder for stock car racing. The reigning champion can't qualify above 38th in a 43 car field.

In that stock car formula we have everybody driving the exact same car, with stickers on to fool the Great Unwashed into thinking that there's something different. And they don't finish the race at the right distance if they want to contrive a finish, they just throw out a green-white finish.

Meanwhile, in every form of motor racing we have safety cars put out whenever someone looks a bit dominant. With the result that more and more accidents therefore occur as the cars are artificially bunched back up.

The "world" touring car championship is emasculated by making the best drivers have heavier cars. Can't let the best man win, can we?

In rallying the whole ethos of the sport is replaced by some minor time trialling, where if you wreck your car you can still rejoin later.

And in Formula 1 - the "peak" of the sport - we have a governing body and officials that are almost patently in the pocket of one team. Willing to change regulations when they are not dominant, willing to penalize other drivers who dare to combat them, willing to overlook illegalities on their cars when it would cost them a race.

We have the farcical circumstance where a driver is penalized more for being on the track at the wrong time than deliberately trying to take out an opponent. Based, it appears, solely on the logo on the nose of the car.

You're not even allowed to overtake. F1 forced to race on pathetic circuits that don't allow for overtaking and when a driver does he is given a drive-through.

When a driver is tigering, when you see it up close, you do see the whole point of the sport. But the coverage doesn't allow for this. And you can't get it in person because you're corralled a mile away away with sweaty Ferraristas from Basingstoke who wouldn't know Gilles Villeneuve from a roasted peanut.

It's pathetic. Manipulated. Rigged.

It has often been like this in the past. These days though it is endemic.

Yet I still watch it. : Addicted? Probably.

Thank God for Le Mans. Easily the best race of the year. Genuine drama rather than the fiction that is other top-line motor racing.


Let it all out. ...

Feel better now

Ham short cut the track to pass should he have a knighthood in place of a drive thru :lol:

#19 Coral

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:56

Races like this make me want to stop watching F1. I have not felt this dejected since the dark days of 2001-2004 when I didn't watch half the races. I thought when Alonso and Renault started winning in 2005, that things were finally changing...unfortunately we are now back to those days... :cry: :cry: :cry:

Today's "race" was a total joke...boring, manipulated fix. I'm so depressed...what has happened to the sport I love so much? :(

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#20 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 13:59

Originally posted by SlateGray


Let it all out. ...

Feel better now

Ham short cut the track to pass should he have a knighthood in place of a drive thru :lol:

Yeah, cos that's 100% relevant to weight penalties in WTCC and the duopoly that is DTM. And the artificiality where there's a gazillion one-make feeder formulae so Johnny Hotshoe won't be shown up by some Sao Paulo peasant until he's safely in a bought ride.

#21 ClubmanGT

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:00

You're completely right. McLaren should be allowed to do what ever they want. Only then will F1 be equal.

Although I do agree about the WRC/WTCC sentiments - the WRC is dying thanks to their zealous cost-cutting moves and the WTCC is about as inspiring as AIDS.

#22 SlateGray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:01

Originally posted by ensign14

Yeah, cos that's 100% relevant to weight penalties in WTCC and the duopoly that is DTM. And the artificiality where there's a gazillion one-make feeder formulae so Johnny Hotshoe won't be shown up by some Sao Paulo peasant until he's safely in a bought ride.


So thats a no to the knighthood then?

#23 valachus

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:11

Originally posted by Coral

Today's "race" was a total joke...boring, manipulated fix. I'm so depressed...what has happened to the sport I love so much? :(


Yeah I agree, the "overtake" Lew1s pulled on Kovalainen was the kind of move not seen in F1 since the dark ages of Schumacher.

#24 SeanValen

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:15

Originally posted by DoubleWDC


There's no proof whatsoever that previous generations were better than this one. If we take other sports the competition gets better all the time and records shatter. In F1 everything is masked by equipment.



Did you watch all the races or just generalising. Schumacher didn't always have the best equipment, yet his race pace and tactical mind were weapons other teams didn't have. It was exciting seeing him overcome greater odds when in trouble, you just don't get those drives anymore, no more racing genuises,


The 1998 season pisses all over 2008 one hundren million times over and then rubs salt into the wounds, watch Schumacher take on the Mclarens and keep the title fight alive towards the end of the season, from 3 stop Strategy drives at Hungary to the determination and grit of Spa 1998 until he crashed into DC, that was excitement, there's no story now with ferrari, they are up and running, the real story and best thing about f1 especially after Senna's death was Schumacher going to ferrari, it was a proper mission to make them winners, and it was exciting, now everyone is just happy to be in the best car regardless, Massa and Kimi are winning in the team MS made others want to go too., when a driving genuis like Schumacher has to fight it out in seasons like 96/97/98/99/2000, a guy who wants to win the title so badly, he does overtime to commit his life for winning with ferrari, it's a story and exciting to watch, the struggles to get there, but NOW? Where's the story? There's nothing, we've seen it all before, the wow moments are in the past, but occassionaly you might get a drive from Kimi like Silverstone last year that reminds you of some of the inlaps and outlaps that Michael made so exciting to watch, strategy stuff was not exciting really, but MS did some amazing stuff to win some races, you don't get any of those drives as much anymore.

If your lucky you might get 3-4 races that are on par with Schumacher's Grade B GP wins,

with Grade B, I mean just winning with the top car in a dominant fashion-it's respected, but it's not like MS's Grade A wins

Grade A wins are like Schumacher's win at Imola 2006, driving on shot tyres, everyone expecting Alonso to win, then Schumacher producing inlaps that even Pat Symonds described as fantastic, Michael could find time, he could rise to the ocassion, the mark of a proper champion, he could reply on track and come out ahead to outflank rivals, that was a super drive. Face it , without Schumacher in that ferrari, it would of been a very straight forward gp of some guy like Massa struggeling on shot tyres and then losing.



#25 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:17

Originally posted by SlateGray


So thats a no to the knighthood then?

You're missing the point. Drivers miss out chicanes all the time without punishments. This wasn't even blatant, it was undercutting an apex that probably cost time rather than gained it. And the reason why they do so is all bound up with things like ever-safer cars, ever-safer tracks, ever-more-ballsed-up regulations that make it nigh on impossible to overtake but provide little risk for an asinine move. It turns something that should be funambulism into a mailed fist.

#26 JesseFriz

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:20

I think pro-wrestling is fake and scripted.

I don't watch pro-wrestling.

You think racing is fake and scripted.

Why are you still watching racing?

Get over yourself, millions of people are still enjoying motorsports. Go to your local kart track on a club day and watch a good race. That will make you happy. Bitching about the current state of international motorsport on forums will not make you happy. It's pretty black and white.

#27 SlateGray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:23

Originally posted by ensign14

You're missing the point. Drivers miss out chicanes all the time without punishments. This wasn't even blatant, it was undercutting an apex that probably cost time rather than gained it. And the reason why they do so is all bound up with things like ever-safer cars, ever-safer tracks, ever-more-ballsed-up regulations that make it nigh on impossible to overtake but provide little risk for an asinine move. It turns something that should be funambulism into a mailed fist.


If it was Kimi you would advocate the opposite :rolleyes:

#28 SeanValen

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:25

Originally posted by JesseFriz
I think pro-wrestling is fake and scripted.

I don't watch pro-wrestling.

You think racing is fake and scripted.

Why are you still watching racing?

Get over yourself, millions of people are still enjoying motorsports. Go to your local kart track on a club day and watch a good race. That will make you happy. Bitching about the current state of international motorsport on forums will not make you happy. It's pretty black and white.



Every motorsport fan is different, you can't change someone' minds, it's like someone always wanting extra cheese on pizza, or someone thinking f1 hasn't been the same since Senna's death, or Schumacher's retirement, or some track they are missing LIKE SUZUKA :mad:

Its a travesty a f1 championship has to exist without Suzuka to test drivers.

It's one thing drivers dying or retiring, but when a track leaves like Suzuka, it boggles the mind, Fuji was lucky to have a wet race last year, if it was dry, maybe the end of the season would of been very boring.

RAIN has bailed out bad tracks in the past and changed the excitement of the season, rain is something that has helped formula one more then any recent rule changes, FACT.

#29 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:32

Originally posted by ensign14

You're missing the point. Drivers miss out chicanes all the time without punishments. This wasn't even blatant, it was undercutting an apex that probably cost time rather than gained it. And the reason why they do so is all bound up with things like ever-safer cars, ever-safer tracks, ever-more-ballsed-up regulations that make it nigh on impossible to overtake but provide little risk for an asinine move. It turns something that should be funambulism into a mailed fist.

Get rid of chicanes. I'd think that is much more in tune what we really want.

No crap stuff that invites drivers to take chances cutting it. By now one thinks they have figured this one out. If they can't cut a corner and gain time, nobody will attempt marginal passes. If one thinks a bit about it, one might even comes to the conclusion that chicanes create more danger and problems than they solve. If you want to attempt to change FiA's outlook, that's the way to do it. Point them out the inherit safety risks of a chicane. And give them cars that can overtake

#30 Pingguest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:45

Motorsports is in decline. In the whole sport there's a standardization proces going with artificial rules to 'improve the racing', 'reducing the costs' and 'improving the safety'. Even with Le Mans Prototypes and Formula 1 we see regulations for standardized parts and homologation.

And did the rules reduce costs? Or improve the show? No, not in my opinion. Formula 1 races are more predictable than ever. Most of Sundays final results are already decided during Saturday's qualifying session. Overtaking is virtually impossible and close racing is almost non-existing.

#31 Pingguest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:46

Recently I read this article regarding this subject:

The competitive sport of auto racing was born from a desire by manufacturers to demonstrate their engineering and design superiority. Fast forward one hundred years, and we find the slow adoption of spec racing series in the 1990’s has now grown to an alarming proliferation of spec series that dominate almost every category of professional racing on the national and international level. This near-universal adoption of spec cars and spec thinkers draws precious little inspiration from auto racing’s origins.

Think you can build a better rear wing? Not allowed. Concerned the rear anti-roll bar doesn’t offer a wide enough range of adjustment? Deal with it. Want to tighten the waistline of your car’s sidepods to eek out an aero advantage? Prepare for a lifetime ban.

Almost without exception, the modern racing series, auto manufacturer, and fan have allowed a ‘dumbing down’ and disallowance of innovation from racing teams and constructors with the rampant explosion of spec series. For the racing purist, traditionalist, or those that knew what racing was like before everything started looking the same, I can only hope a growing sense of disgust is forming.

The collective loss of hard earned, hand worn engineering design skills have been sacrificed on countless shop floors for the assembly kit cars. The list of major racing series that have sold their souls is ever increasing: ChampCar, ChampCar Atlantic, Daytona Prototype, IRL, Indy Pro Series, GP2, A1GP, Formula BMW, Formula Renault, World Series by Renault, Star Formula Mazda...

The only new things we hear about from these series are the drivers that come and go on an annual basis. Even NASCAR, long the bastion for bent rules and dozens of weekly chassis inventions, has called and end to team’s freedom with the advent of their uniformly built ‘Car of Tomorrow.’ Even NASCAR is teetering on the fence of becoming a spec-series. Oh, wait, I think that happened a while ago.

The argument for spec series is a familiar one: “It promotes close racing while keeping costs under control.” Yes…good point…never thought of that…mandating a field of identical cars has indeed shown a high likelihood of delivering close racing…

As for cost control, the physical bits are indeed controlled and many series have gone so far as to limit open test days, but the overall budgets haven’t diminished – those funds have simply moved from developing new parts on the shop floor to developing new setups with simulation software or on 7-posters.

Taking a quick look across the various major racing series that use spec cars, have their budgets really gone down that much? Isn’t the degree of cost savings measured by how many new entrants join a series, or how many teams can afford to add additional cars? Car counts aren’t exactly overflowing in most of the major spec series.

It forces us to ask ourselves what we consider to be important in auto racing. Is it the looks of the cars? The technologies they’re made of? The quality of racing? The innovations and advancements? The sounds?

At its core, auto racing is an intrinsically human sport – the more influence and personal touch a fan or crew member can have with a machine, the more rewarding the involvement. The ability to express and implement ideas is the main draw form most people to any profession; motorsports is no different. What happens when that human touch becomes so diminished that racing team personnel become little more than nut and bolt herders?

The age of revered designers is gone, for the most part. Racing fans used to know the names of the men that built their favorite Indycars, Sportscars, and everything in between. Who designed the latest ChampCar? The current IRL cars? GrandAm Daytona Prototypes? Me neither. No clue. While their work took thousands of hours, these men and their creations are largely nameless and faceless.

I grew up in feeder series like Super Vee, Formula Atlantic, and IMSA GTP – all places where the competition on the shop floor to out think and out build our competitors proved as fierce as the actual races on track.
Depending on what series I was working in, I’d travel hours and hours on an off weekend to pay to see a GTP race, or an Atlantic race, or anything else that was diverse, real, and unpredictable. I’ve made very few of these trips in the past decade.

It saddens me to think of the young driver that’s never been asked to test a new rear wing, wide track front suspension, diffuser, or exhaust header. The same sorrow is felt for the young mechanics and technicians that are barred by rules to even create such new bits for their drivers to try. The art of refining the work of others is all we’re left with. It’s painting by the numbers. It’s remixing, at best.

What we’re now seeing the effect of is a culture of young crew members, engineers, and fabricators that are locked into such a narrow window of adventure, the spirit to explore, to out-build and out-design, has atrophied and withered from the DNA of the sport.

But what’s to be done? Clearly, the spirit of ‘status quo’ has overcome the spirit of unbridled competition, and it has gone on for so long now, we’ve almost forgotten what it’s like to go see a series filled with cars that take our collective breaths away. Voting with one’s wallet or Nielsen ratings is the best measure I can think of. Until the spec series decide to open up their formula for chassis, engine, and tire competition, I’ll probably click over to watch Soapbox Derby racing.

It’s sad that a father and son can build a racer out of wood in their garage, but grown men with millions of dollars choose to regulate themselves into a corner where all they can do is buy a kit car to fight with other millionaires. Knowing that these millionaires likely did everything but follow the rules in order to make their millions and then choose to spend it in an arena where they have nothing but rules to follow is rather amusing, isn’t it?

But all isn’t lost. Formula One and the American Le Mans Series are the last strongholds of creative freedom, but even F1 has decided engines, ECU’s, Tires, wind tunnels, and a number of other aspects of its show must be regulated or assimilated. For many of us, what’s being raced is as important as the racing spectacle itself. There’s a reason the non-spec series fill the grandstands, and why the major spec series appear to race amongst themselves without concerns of people coming to watch them.

It’s the difference between a musician writing and performing his own music or being forced to perform with lyrics and music written by others. It’s McLaren MP4-4 vs. Dallara-Honda. It’s Audi R10 TDI vs. Doran-Ford. It’s acoustic vs. techno. It’s Jimi Hendrix vs. Britney Spears.

What’s your choice?
Marshall Pruett is Automotive Editor for SPEEDTV.com



#32 Go_Scotty_Go!

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:59

Funny, I get equal parts of a great race in all formulas that I watch, including NASCAR and F1 - they are exactly the same to me and both of them can put on a great or not so great race. Racing to me is like a bunch of grapes, if one of them is rotten/sour there is always another one...


Must suck to be you ensign. :wave:

#33 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:07

Lewis being a naughty boy and getting penalised for it has nothing to do with the state of worldwide motor racing. :o

#34 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:07

Originally posted by DoubleWDC


There's no proof whatsoever that previous generations were better than this one. If we take other sports the competition gets better all the time and records shatter. In F1 everything is masked by equipment.

Exactly.

#35 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:17

Originally posted by DoubleWDC


There's no proof whatsoever that previous generations were better than this one. If we take other sports the competition gets better all the time and records shatter. In F1 everything is masked by equipment.

Actually, there's one interesting point on that...natural selection does not weed out the dangerous any more...it did in the past.

#36 Deeq

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:22

Originally posted by ensign14

Actually, there's one interesting point on that...natural selection does not weed out the dangerous any more...it did in the past.


Shame on you for invoking that principle flippantly and rather ignorantly. Darwin is turning on his grave :rolleyes:

#37 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:31

Originally posted by Pingguest
And did the rules reduce costs? Or improve the show? No, not in my opinion. Formula 1 races are more predictable than ever. Most of Sundays final results are already decided during Saturday's qualifying session. Overtaking is virtually impossible and close racing is almost non-existing.

The predictability is because of improved reliabilty. The close racing however was almost never there. In the good old times, cars won races a lap ahead of everyone, meaning minutes, not seconds ahead of others.

Expanding on this, having physics in mind. When gaps do get smaller because of closer performance, then it is inevitable that overtaking is getting harder.

What might help F1 is if they had tires that need to last the entire race. However our exitement would be shortlived, based on the 2005 season. Hamilton would be nowhere at this time, because he's rather hard on the tires. Kimi seemed to be the best in managing the tires, even nowadays (obvious exception at Nurburgring 2005). Whenever in the 2005 season others would have to slow down he was able to open the wick in the last section of the race. That's part of how he won races where the engine rule put him 10 places down.

Anyhow, the Tilke tracks seemed an atttempt to solve these issues, in a pretty standard way. Didn't quite work though.

The only thing that I can see will really change F1 to the better is if they get into dire straits. When they have to work together to survive as sport, instead of as is now common working against each other to slow each others progress down. Once they cannot afford the bickering, holding onto some advantages then they have to focus on what makes racing racing. As sophistcacted as theya re, once the team cannot afford to take along their lavish centres, then we're getting closer.

There is one picture I saw once, that really stuck in my mind. Some English driver, driving his F1 race car all alone on a little pickup truck from England to some race on the Continent. To me that was when F1 was still fun. The race was an event that one wanted to be there. The results were important too, but not the main reason to be there.

#38 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:37

Originally posted by ensign14

Actually, there's one interesting point on that...natural selection does not weed out the dangerous any more...it did in the past.

Flawed theory. Jim Clark would be the most obvious one to not fit in there. In olden times, many drivers were killed because of equipment failures.

Let's try it maybe that some overeager engineers and team owners finally were left behind. Most well known of them all would be Colin Chapman, with his renowed manufacturing death traps called cars.

#39 Perigee

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:53

Originally posted by HoldenRT
Lewis being a naughty boy and getting penalised for it has nothing to do with the state of worldwide motor racing. :o

Exactly.

And, as Brundle put it, the drive through was the minimum penalty that could be imposed. It could have been a 10 place drop of his grid place, so he really should consider himself lucky.

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#40 Only Massa

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:26

file under: sour grapes.

what can we do if Mclaren keeps sucking and its favourite driver keeps doing that too?

Nothing. Let's enjoy racig, which is really entertaining, even without Mclaren.

There's no point in criticizing "the system" if your favorite team happens to suck (and is partecipating anyway to the championship even if it was caught cheating and stealing).

There's nothing wrong with the system and with the rules, since they are the same for everyone.

I begin to fear that paranoia is a consequence of losing.

#41 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:29

I also think its time this board banned Signatures, it can't be right that members can carry sigs containing insults at other members teams and causing aggravation, its childish and nasty and should be rules set in place what you can and cannot carry

#42 Driver

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:37

Originally posted by HP
Flawed theory. Jim Clark would be the most obvious one to not fit in there. In olden times, many drivers were killed because of equipment failures.

Let's try it maybe that some overeager engineers and team owners finally were left behind. Most well known of them all would be Colin Chapman, with his renowed manufacturing death traps called cars.


Interesting that you bring up ACBC as an example of what needed to be excised from the sport. I don't think Lotus left the sport because their cars were too dangerous...they left because they wanted to innovate but often weren't allowed. While reading through this thread I was actually thinking of him as an example of what is NEEDED in the sport somewhere (and I think F1 is the place) and has been regulated out of the sport. I would find it more exciting and interesting to see people trying things like a double chassis ,or six wheels, or a big fan...and if it works, don't regulate it out of the sport, let the innovator have his reward (winning) until everyone else copies, finds other innovations, or otherwise catches up. Where would we be if putting the engine behind the driver, or disc brakes, or slicks, or wings, or had been regulated away?

There seem to be two arguments against allowing free innovation, cost and safety.

As anyone who's raced in a narrowly regulated series can tell you, costs tend to be raised by every succeeding regulation that's added. Clever people always find ways to go faster...and when their range of innovation is limited, it tends to cost a whole bunch of money to find those little allowed corners of the regulations that give you an advantage. On the other hand, when you have freedom to explore whacky ideas, you often can find surprisingly inexpensive solutions. Either way, racing in a top formula is going to be expensive...may as well have it be exciting, interesting and expensive.

Some innovations may lead to unsafe cars. I don't think this means you have to choke all innovation though. Of course, increased cornering speeds are inherently less safe, but there are plenty of innovations out there that have been allowed that help increase safety in spite of the increased dangers (SAFER barriers, better cockpits, better track design, better gravel traps, etc). That kind of innovation is really cool and fun to see...imagine how much more fun it would be to see that kind of innovation in performance too!

Anyway, I find F1 to still b e one of the more interesting types of racing to me. The high budgets, great drivers, great car designers and glamour are still fun to watch...but it'd be even more fun if we could see innovation set free.

#43 Option1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:41

Originally posted by ensign14

... Drivers miss out chicanes all the time without punishments. This wasn't even blatant, it was undercutting an apex that probably cost time rather than gained it. ...

:rotfl: :rotfl: And in breaking news, not content with Todding for England, ensign14 now channels the spirit of other infamous past blind fanboi posters (take ya pick).

It also proves that you were watching an entirely different race from the one I was watching. Quit the whining. The penalty was perfectly legitimate. If baby Lew1s wasn't so intent on charging on after breaking the rules and had conceded the place back - as plenty of other drivers have done in the past - he wouldn't have got the penalty now would he?

Oh woe! Oh woe! It's all a conspiracy. They're all out to get me. Oh woe! Oh woe!

YAWN! Give it a ****ing break.

As for what's happening with WRC - that I agree with you on.

Neil

#44 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:44

Originally posted by HP
Flawed theory. Jim Clark would be the most obvious one to not fit in there. In olden times, many drivers were killed because of equipment failures.

I know that, and many were great or potentially great. Thing is, just to get to F1 you had to go through forms of racing where a mistake could be fatal. That in itself would at least put off the poorer drivers.

#45 pacwest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:55

Originally posted by Coral
Races like this make me want to stop watching F1. I have not felt this dejected since the dark days of 2001-2004 when I didn't watch half the races. I thought when Alonso and Renault started winning in 2005, that things were finally changing...unfortunately we are now back to those days... :cry: :cry: :cry:

Today's "race" was a total joke...boring, manipulated fix. I'm so depressed...what has happened to the sport I love so much? :(


I turned it off.


I know a fair penalty. God knows how many "is it a goal" I have called for and against a team I liked in Hockey. You know when it's right.

But this stuff today, it's turned me off racing for a bit. I was so looking forward to a good fight in the midfield. Not from Hamilton charging but from GOOD drivers defending. I've watched a lot of racing in my day and I demand a bit more "entertainment" probably because of Schumacher...

#46 andysaint

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:03

Driver penalties aside I agree with the original post. Motor sport should be about the fastest car and driver winning (bar mechanical problems of course. In F1 I hate the last bit of qualifying. Why can't drivers have low fuel runs where the fastest wins pole? I'm so glad they are bringing back slick tyres and they banned traction control puts more emphasis on the driver.

I don't like the DTM at the moment as it's trying to be too much like F1. What are they doing with pit stops in touring car races!

The WTCC has the potential to be great. The ballast system annoys me but for cars like the Chevy and Honda where they are still relatively new it gives them a chance to win and keeps their interest in the series.

The WRC is an appalling series. Not enough manufactuers, too much money, too complicated, stupid rules to try and keep drivers artificially in rallies. Needs to be simplified.

The Indycar series has the potential to be great again. Big cars, the Indy 500 back to the top with good crowds. The CART drivers just need a season to get to grips with the new cars.

#47 LB

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:10

I remember back in 1996 this happened.. http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=ywsB65YfLOQ
some think its up there with the greatest passes ever. Some think its illegal. The ones that think its illegal are winning at the moment.

If you don't want cars to cut chicanes then sort the run off areas so that they are punished...

#48 pingu666

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:19

Originally posted by ensign14

I know that, and many were great or potentially great. Thing is, just to get to F1 you had to go through forms of racing where a mistake could be fatal. That in itself would at least put off the poorer drivers.


no, it just puts off those with imagination and/or lack of confidence.

Irish road racing has plenty riders who arent that fast comparitivly, but they are still going really quick if they have a acciedent

#49 pacwest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:20

Ever stood there? Someone with balls enough to try that there in a tinny little tub deserves a medal.

It was entertaining and within the rules of the time. The rules changed after that. Herta fans at the time probably thought he should have defended more.

#50 Risil

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 17:22

With unconstrained technical regulations, we'd basically have something resembling laser-guided hydrogen bombs on wheels circulating tracks at full throttle. To put it melodramatically, it is the tragedy of motor racing that its two obligations: to provide a technical challenge and put on an exciting, visceral show for those not lucky or brave enough to take part, are diametrically opposed. Especially so, when the money and professionalism in modern sport pushes the former to its extremes.

IMO the watershed for F1 as a technically-challenging and relevant sport came in the late 1970s and early 1980s, when the development of ground effects-orientated chassis and turbo engines wrought serious change within the sport. The skirt/venturi effect was no fancar/closed-bodywork 'cheat'; but simply an entirely valid method of improving the grip of the cars, which it did to an enormous extent. Not only did they make the cars terrifyingly quick around the corners, but also produced a breed of car that were horrible and uncomfortable to drive, and at the same time was remarkably easy. This was the stated cause of Mario Andretti's premature retirement from F1, Gilles had similar inclinations; and I believe the departures of drivers like Jones, Reutemann and Hunt were hastened by this development. And the racing sucked (pun?). Aside from the obvious exception of the latter stages of the 1979 French GP, I can't think of many great, entertaining races, especially compared with the subsequent flat-bottomed, non-Mclaren period of 1983-87.

Similarly, the turbo era was a catalyst for the influx of major, well-funded manufacturer operations (Renault as constructor and supplier, BMW, Honda), which instantly made irrelevant the Cosworth powerplant upon which Formula One's undisuputed 'golden age' had been built, and instead restricted competition to whichever teams had signed the right piece of paper. The successful manufacturers' refusal to supply the whole field IMO killed Grand Prix racing (Brabham, Tyrrell and Lotus had downturns become vicious spirals as a result of losing a proper engine contract), and with the onset of intensive aerodynamic engineering in the early 1990s, Formula One was firmly the preserve of the incredibly wealthy and efficiently-organised (this last point also ensured the racing itself plumbed new depths of tedium, as if the fact that the races would invariably be contested by a red-and-white, then blue-and-green car; and a blue-and-yellow car wasn't enough). Once even Ferrari had belatedly joined the ranks of the competently-managed circa 1997, any vestiges of romance, competition or sporting feeling had been obliterated. By the utter madness of the delusion that Formula One was the ultimate proving ground for unfettered technical progress. Once the infinite funds of racing-as-marketing had unlocked these fetters, racing-as-racing was doomed.

Of course, all that's different now is that racing-as-marketing doesn't even hide behind the Technical white elephant (see: Honda, Ferrari World), but one can at least be grateful that in 1982, 1988 and 1993, F1's rulemakers each time stepped back from the abyss, and prevented the three chief areas of technical advance (aerodynamic, engine and driver aids) from overcoming the sport altogether.