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Should Kimi have been Black Flagged for Loose exhaust ?


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#1 britishtrident

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:25

If Kimi's had been racing in a club race with loose exhaust part he would have been black flagged as a danger to other compeditors, marshalls and spectators, should he have been allowed to continue racing at Magny-Cours without repairs ?

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#2 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:27

I think he should have been pulled in. If a driver had have been hit in the face with a section of pipe at 300kph+ it would have been very bad news indeed. Surprising the FIA didn't act. I'll be interested to read why. Perhaps they assured the FIA is was secure...

#3 fnz

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:27

no

#4 SlateGray

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:27

No Kimi is not in a Mac ;)

The danger was only in the minds of one drivers fans.

#5 bond

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:29

They should have brought the car to the pits and try to sort it out.
FIA let it pass, as always...
Gone.

#6 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:30

Even kar said in the live topic it should be. :p

#7 Fortymark

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:30

Didn´t the pipe flew off after he had pitted the last time :confused:

#8 Piif

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:31

No.

#9 vaavu

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:33

Originally posted by Fortymark
Didn´t the pipe flew off after he had pitted the last time :confused:


The thing flew off quite quickly, at least based on how Kimi's lap times improved at one point. They just showed a replay of the incident after the pitstops.

#10 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:36

Originally posted by vaavu


The thing flew off quite quickly, at least based on how Kimi's lap times improved at one point. They just showed a replay of the incident after the pitstops.


Yes it was after the pitstops, Black Flagged NO, but FIA should have told them to inspect it and remove it.
I can't figure why they didn't I'm sure they told another team a few years ago that a bit of hanging bodywork needed to be removed, was it Alonso?

#11 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:36

What would that section of exhaust weigh? Remember when the rear-facing camera attached to the outside of the read wing on Jean Alesi's Ferrari fell into the path of Gerhard Berger at Monza in 1995? It totally destroyed Berger's front suspension, and later he said he would have been dead if the camera had hit him in the head. It is on this clip between 3.48" and 4.46". http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=LEEBP2EIOsc

#12 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:38

No.

He would never have been black flagged anyway, if anything he would have been shown the Black flag, with an orrange round middle, which indicate that he has a technical issue, which the stewards feel can be an impediment to other racers.

We know (and saw today) that all teams have a two way communication with the FIA (which is the stewards) during he race. The stewards would have contacted Ferrari and gotten status of the issue, and question if the exhaust would possible fail and fall of the car.

Ferrari doubtless would say no, not as far as they were concerned, the fact that it eventually did will mean that they were incorrect in such an acessment, however the fact that Ferrari chose not to remove the exhaust during Kimi's last pitstop show that they really did not expect that it would.

A broken exhaust in itself is not cause for a flag, and there have been numerous races in the past +50 years where a car have continued (some even won) with a broken exhaust.

Hindsigt is 20/20, however the fact that Kimi did finish the race, and only lost 1 position due to the exhaust show that the non flag was the correct decision.

:cool:

#13 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:40

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM

Hindsigt is 20/20, however the fact that Kimi did finish the race, and only lost 1 position due to the exhaust show that the non flag was the correct decision.

:cool:


But they should have being told by FIA to make it safe and remove it, as clearly shown by it flying off, they should have done this.

#14 Mika Mika

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:41

Should Kimi have been Black Flagged for Loose exhaust ?

NO.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

#15 GhostR

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:41

The way it flew off going around that corner, imagine what would have happened if it had dropped off down a straight with another car behind.

Yes, as a potential danger to a) his own car (flies off and damages the rear wing); b) other competitors (flies off and strikes another car/driver); and c) marshal or spectators at circuit edge (minimal chance at M-C, but definitely plausible at other circuits) at the very least they should have been told to pull it off during the next pitstop.

#16 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:41

Originally posted by britishtrident
If Kimi's had been racing in a club race with loose exhaust part he would have been black flagged as a danger to other compeditors, marshalls and spectators, should he have been allowed to continue racing at Magny-Cours without repairs ?

Not black flagged but this should have been appropriate.

http://www.fia.com/r...ppendix_H_a.pdf

e) Black flag with an orange disc 40cm in diameter:
This flag should be used to inform the driver concerned that his
car has mechanical problems likely to endanger himself or others
and means that the he must stop at his pit on the next lap. When
the mechanical problems have been rectifi ed to the satisfaction
of the chief scrutineer the car may rejoin the race.

#17 Mauseri

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:42

The pipe isnt all that heavy. A bit like if a mirror flew of. Williams/Montoya wasnt called in a couple years ago.

#18 F1Fanatic.co.uk

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:44

Originally posted by HP
Not black flagged but this should have been appropriate.

http://www.fia.com/r...ppendix_H_a.pdf

e) Black flag with an orange disc 40cm in diameter:
This flag should be used to inform the driver concerned that his
car has mechanical problems likely to endanger himself or others
and means that the he must stop at his pit on the next lap. When
the mechanical problems have been rectifi ed to the satisfaction
of the chief scrutineer the car may rejoin the race.

Given that the exhaust did fall off it might have been appropriate. How much does a piece of exhaust that big weight after all? You don't want to think about it striking a driver on the head.

#19 _tr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:47

Hmmmm... If car lost some parts during the race and his weight with driver is too small can it be disqualificated after the race?

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#20 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:48

Originally posted by Anomnader


But they should have being told by FIA to make it safe and remove it, as clearly shown by it flying off, they should have done this.

Not that I disagree, but removing a hot exhaust might have been quite a thing to watch. OTOH some folks were predicting the Ferrari would catch fire coming to a standstil in the pits.

Matbe Kimi should have driven over the kerbs and into grass to get rid of the exhaust and rejoin the track.

#21 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:50

Originally posted by HP
Not that I disagree, but removing a hot exhaust might have been quite a thing to watch. OTOH some folks were predicting the Ferrari would catch fire coming to a standstil in the pits.

Matbe Kimi should have driven over the kerbs and into grass to get rid of the exhaust and rejoin the track.


well the mechanics must have thought the same as they was standing by with fire extinguishers

#22 Tigershark

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:50

Perhaps there is something to be said for calling Kimi in to have the loose part removed. If I remember correctly Michael Schumacher was called in when his bargeboard was dangling around in Australia, perhaps in 2003.

#23 Mauseri

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:50

Originally posted by _tr
Hmmmm... If car lost some parts during the race and his weight with driver is too small can it be disqualificated after the race?

I think there are some exceptions in the rules so it's allowed to be underweight in this case if it didnt gain an advantage.

#24 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:51

Originally posted by _tr
Hmmmm... If car lost some parts during the race and his weight with driver is too small can it be disqualificated after the race?

Certainly, but a smart pit crew will add some extra fuel to compensate the loss. After all it happend before Kimi's last (regular) pitstop.

#25 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:52

Originally posted by HP
Certainly, but a smart pit crew will add some extra fuel to compensate the loss. After all it happend before Kimi's last (regular) pitstop.


isn't the car weighed without Fuel?

Honda case.

#26 Mauseri

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:52

Originally posted by Tigershark
Perhaps there is something to be said for calling Kimi in to have the loose part removed. If I remember correctly Michael Schumacher was called in when his bargeboard was dangling around in Australia, perhaps in 2003.

And it was Ferrari :eek:

#27 stormshadow

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:52

Originally posted by Anomnader


I'll remind you this when theres the next McLaren/Lewis bashing thread.
Theres a new one up there /

Well the rate your boy LEW1S is going at you wont be able to keep up with the reminders :smoking:

#28 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:53

Originally posted by Anomnader


well the mechanics must have thought the same as they was standing by with fire extinguishers

Any pitcrew would have been ready with the extinguishers. They'd be neglitient not to do so.

#29 JonC

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:54

Wasn't Schumacher black/orange flagged in Melbourne one year because his bargeboards were flapping around?

I'm positively no Hamilton/McLaren apologist - but Kimi should have been shown the black/orange flag, no question about it. The consequences of the exhaust hitting another driver would not have been pleasant. Under any interpretation of the black/orange flag rule it cannot be denied that Kimi should have been forced to pit to remove the loose exhaust.

#30 K-One

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:55

Did Ferrari pitcrew do anything regarding that exhaust during pitstop? Quite weird if they didn't

#31 jcbc3

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:55

Originally posted by KWSN - DSM
No.

He would never have been black flagged anyway, if anything he would have been shown the Black flag, with an orrange round middle, which indicate that he has a technical issue, which the stewards feel can be an impediment to other racers.

We know (and saw today) that all teams have a two way communication with the FIA (which is the stewards) during he race. The stewards would have contacted Ferrari and gotten status of the issue, and question if the exhaust would possible fail and fall of the car.

Ferrari doubtless would say no, not as far as they were concerned, the fact that it eventually did will mean that they were incorrect in such an acessment, however the fact that Ferrari chose not to remove the exhaust during Kimi's last pitstop show that they really did not expect that it would.

A broken exhaust in itself is not cause for a flag, and there have been numerous races in the past +50 years where a car have continued (some even won) with a broken exhaust.

Hindsigt is 20/20, however the fact that Kimi did finish the race, and only lost 1 position due to the exhaust show that the non flag was the correct decision.

:cool:



So Ferrari saying it would stay on constitute lying?

The fact that we saw the exhaust come flying off is incontrovertible proof that the Ferrari was in fact a danger to itself, other drivers and the public. 20/20 hindsight tells us that the stewards got it completely wrong.

#32 jesee

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:58

I think it was quite dangerous and it was lucky that when it came off it didnt fly in the direction of a following driver. If that was mclaren iam afraid we would have heard more.

#33 noikeee

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 14:59

Originally posted by HP
Not black flagged but this should have been appropriate.

http://www.fia.com/r...ppendix_H_a.pdf

e) Black flag with an orange disc 40cm in diameter:
This flag should be used to inform the driver concerned that his
car has mechanical problems likely to endanger himself or others
and means that the he must stop at his pit on the next lap. When
the mechanical problems have been rectifi ed to the satisfaction
of the chief scrutineer the car may rejoin the race.


Yeah, tbh I believe that's what it should have happened.

Still, unlucky to have had that problem. :

#34 HP

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:03

Originally posted by Anomnader


isn't the car weighed without Fuel?

Honda case.

Good question. I would have to check as well. However I know that if a team can demonstrate that they always have been over the weight limit they are fine. In Honda's case some say (including the FiA) Honda could not demonstrate that they were always over the minimum weight. That is being disputed however. There are enough threads on that particular topic though.

With the exhausts and empty tanks the Ferrari should have been over the minimum weight.


It's also two different situations. If a car loses something due to a accident or mechanical problems, then that is not a cheating attempt, especially since it wasn't performance enhancing for Raikonnen. That much was obvious for everyone to see.

Wasn't Alonso years ago 3rd in Brazil, despite crashing his car? He kept 3rd, because the race was stopped on the lap he crashed, and on the previous lap he was running 3rd. My point is there wasn't much that could be weighted afterwards.

#35 Deeq

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:04

Originally posted by jcbc3



So Ferrari saying it would stay on constitute lying?

The fact that we saw the exhaust come flying off is incontrovertible proof that the Ferrari was in fact a danger to itself, other drivers and the public. 20/20 hindsight tells us that the stewards got it completely wrong.

It would constitute an error[of judgment]. :rolleyes:

I agree 100%, 20/20 has shown us that now but it is 20/20 after all. So yes they should have instructed Ferrari to call him in and remove the pipe.
But people lets not act like this is the first time something like this happened. Williams was allowed to race with dangling mirrors in CANADA few years ago and Ferrari was instructed to call in MS in another race after that one. So its a judgment call made by the stewards of the race whether to call in the car or not....and they sometimes err like you know humans are known to do time to time

#36 primer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:04

In ideal circumstances, I think FIA stewards would have asked Ferrari to pit Kimster for repairs or retirement, and failing compliance black flagged him.

But I do not think such 'advisory' provisions are included, so my answer is:

"Yes, they should have black flagged Kimi Raikkonen. That flapping piece of titanium / steel could easily have killed someone on track."


PS: Why is this not a poll? : Please some moderator make it a poll.

EIT: It seems there is a procedure for calling in drivers to pits under certain circumstances. I am quite disappointed that this option wasn't exercised. :down:

#37 carbonfibre

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:06

Well first ofcourse they would have given him the meatball and the pitcrew must remove the loose exhaust piece.

But they are pretty inconsistent in that, i remember that michael schumacher had to come in in melbourne 2003 because of a loose bargeboard. The same season both Williams drivers could continue to drive at canada while they had loose mirrors smashing into their helmets and flying around the cockpit.

#38 yr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:10

Yeah sure, all racing fans have wet dreams about black flaging drivers for whatever reason, that truly would improve the show. :rolleyes:

#39 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:13

I don't think it will be looked at, just pointing out that it will be weighed without fuel, or I hope it will be otherwise that is a big can of worms that teams would find to easy to exploit.

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#40 Dolph

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:17

Originally posted by micra_k10
The pipe isnt all that heavy. A bit like if a mirror flew of. Williams/Montoya wasnt called in a couple years ago.


I've heard bullets are quite light.

#41 JBDrake

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:21

Originally posted by jesee
I think it was quite dangerous and it was lucky that when it came off it didnt fly in the direction of a following driver. If that was mclaren iam afraid we would have heard more.


The exhaust coming free under braking & coming to rest on the outside of the corner would have been the most likely scenario.

#42 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:24

I don´t think he should have been black flagged, but his pit should have been told to call him in, in order to secure or remove the offending part. It did pose a danger IMO.
I would have been gutted for Kimi though, as he´s not had much luck lately.

#43 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:27

Originally posted by Anomnader


But they should have being told by FIA to make it safe and remove it, as clearly shown by it flying off, they should have done this.


Yes.

:cool:

#44 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:28

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
I don´t think he should have been black flagged, but his pit should have been told to call him in, in order to secure or remove the offending part. It did pose a danger IMO.
I would have been gutted for Kimi though, as he´s not had much luck lately.



well they didn't even need to call him specially, could have done it at his normal pitstop

#45 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:32

Originally posted by jcbc3



So Ferrari saying it would stay on constitute lying?

The fact that we saw the exhaust come flying off is incontrovertible proof that the Ferrari was in fact a danger to itself, other drivers and the public. 20/20 hindsight tells us that the stewards got it completely wrong.


I am not condoning anything.

I explain what I think happened.

I do think that Ferrari should have been shown the black/orange flag, and state what I think happened. I have no idea if this really did happen or not.

The fact that Ferrari did not remove the loses piece, and the fact that the stewards did not ask them to do so, indicate that neither Ferrari nor the stewards felt that this was an issue that action was needed on.

As I wrote, in hindsight we all saw if fly of, and the piece should have been removed.

:cool:

#46 Cenotaph

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:39

I think Kimi should have been black flagged, stripped of all championship points and lose his superlicense...

#47 jcbc3

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:40

So you agree that this particular instance showed bad officiating?

#48 GhostR

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:42

Originally posted by JBDrake
The exhaust coming free under braking & coming to rest on the outside of the corner would have been the most likely scenario.


Strange, I seem to remember it came free in the middle of a corner and flew quite some distance away from the car... Far enough and high enough that at a lot of tracks it would have been over the fence.

:p

Basically, making a decision based on supposition on a relative best-case scenario, no matter how likely that scenario, is not the right thing to do. If there's a chance of something horribly dangerous happening, as was the case today, then the meatball flag should be used.

#49 Red Rocket

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:49

Should'nt Kimi have been black flagged when he have flat spotted his Mclaren's tyre a few years back and was bouncing like a basket ball? A flying tyre is much more dangerous to drivers and spectators then a broken exhaust.

#50 mursuka80

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:53

Originally posted by Cenotaph
I think Kimi should have been black flagged, stripped of all championship points and lose his superlicense...


And this useless thread stays open when hammy threads are closed :down: