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Should Kimi have been Black Flagged for Loose exhaust ?


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#51 SirSaltire

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:57

Originally posted by Red Rocket
Should'nt Kimi have been black flagged when he have flat spotted his Mclaren's tyre a few years back and was bouncing like a basket ball? A flying tyre is much more dangerous to drivers and spectators then a broken exhaust.

A flat spotted tyre would never 'fly off'. I was surprised that KR was not called into the pits to have it removed (black/orange flag). The exhaust whilst not heavy would be like a missile if it had flown off on the straight. It was only holding on by a Lambda sensor wire which eventually gave way on a corner. Up until now I have had little regard to the so called Ferrari bias from FIA (FIA officials) but I am sure if this had been any other team, they would have been called in.

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#52 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 15:59

Originally posted by SirSaltire
Up until now I have had little regard to the so called Ferrari bias from FIA (FIA officials) but I am sure if this had been any other team, they would have been called in.


This weekend must have a bit too much if even people like yourself have opinions like that. They should have being told to bring him in and take it off.

#53 pingu666

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:13

they really should of taken it off, thats a big potential danger, mostly for the marshells and spectators. i was disapointed they didnt clearup the torro rosso carbon fibre in one of the chicanes : aswell

#54 JBDrake

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:18

Originally posted by SirSaltire
I am sure if this had been any other team, they would have been called in.


Any other team (well most) wouldn't have been involved in a championship battle, so calling them in to have it removed wouldn't have been such a high pressure decision. I'm not going to speculate on what would have happened to McLaren.
Most cars that had suffered such severe damage would have most likely been out of the points as a result, making the decision an easier one.
After seeing the way that it detached we can say it was a mistake not to call him but they were probably not expecting it to detach in such a spectacular fashion & didn't want to potentially effect the outcome of the championship.

#55 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:21

Originally posted by JBDrake


Any other team (well most) wouldn't have been involved in a championship battle, so calling them in to have it removed wouldn't have been such a high pressure decision.


Thats very dangerous thinking.

#56 schuey100

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:22

They should have made sure Ferrari sorted it out. If Ferrari assured them that it would not fall off then Ferrari should be punished for their mistake. Heavily punished because it did come off and it could have caused something very serious to happen.

I really think the stewards should have insisted that they come in and fix it. The problem was that it's probably impossible to remove because of the high temperatures.

If Ferrari promised the stewards it was safe they were wrong and they could, potentially, have caused a major incident. I don't think there's any reason not to punish them. What that punishment is I'm not sure. Personally I would make it rather heavy, maybe loss of constructor points, probably nothing driver specific.

I don't think there's any excuse in playing with danger like that.

#57 jcbc3

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:24

Well, if you cared to look, several posters here called for him to be pulled in after they showed the actual metal pipe from the exhaust flailing. It really wasn't a hard call to make. And that wasn't 20/20 hindsight. I don't know what post mortem stewards do after each race, but I think they should look each other in the eyes, say a mea culpa and publish that they will never make such a blatant mistake again.

I fully understand Ferrari keeping him out there and praying for the best. That is their job. Same as McLaren on Nürburgring.

#58 Lada Lover

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:29

FIA wind tunnel tests have proven that 9 out of 10 exhausts pipes fly up and away from the danger zone. Especially when the car is doing a 4 G turn.

I think Kimi should have had to pit and have the piece of exhaust removed. If Ferrari was almost 100% certain the exhaust piece was secured than that would negate a black flag. That's probably how it transpired.

Edit: Damn, the race is 2 hours old and I forgot the pipe did fall off. That is pretty serious. Ferrari said it wouldn't fall off.

#59 postajegenye

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:30

Black flag? Nope, but they should have called him in and remove it.

Anyway, I really think we will see an accident when a driver gets hit on the head by something, we've been really happy it hasn't already happened in recent years. It isn't hard to imagine a wheel (we keep seeing wheels flying off the cars, did you see the way Vettel's wheel shot off in pracice in Canada on Saturday?) or some debri (or even a car - DC & Wurz last year) hitting a driver's helmet and at those speeds the outcome can be really bad...
Of course it's really dangerous for marshalls and spectators too.

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#60 JBDrake

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:39

Originally posted by Anomnader


Thats very dangerous thinking.


Yes it is if they always decided to sit on their hands in such a situation.
I clearly did not say it was the right decision, just that it was not a black & white decision.

#61 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:40

When was the last time an F1 car was called into the pits for a similar offence?

#62 F1Champion

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:55

Firstly when was the last time a driver was black flagged in a race for an issue with bodywork? It's not happened many times recently so in that respect the FIA are being consistent. If they called Kimi in then they should of called in Bourdais after his rear wing/fin broke into a few pieces, remember that piece of carbon fibre was in the middle of the quick right left corner for most of the race and that piece of carbon fibre was far more dangerous to more drivers than Kimi's exhaust.

Secondly Kimi seemed to be in a spot of the track with not that many competitors around him therefore the risk was a lot lower had he been leading a pack of 3/4 drivers. If a driver was coming up behind him, then it would be likely that Kimi could let them through because he wasn't racing them and therefore they didn't need to stay behind him for very long.

#63 HoldenRT

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:56

It's hard to say if it should of or not there has been very little precidents. It was a 50/50. Maybe if it was a McLaren it might of been called in, maybe not. The fact that it flew off showed why it's a debating point. kar even said it should be called in, so it's at least a valid arguement. But it's hard to say. I don't think it's trolling to discuss it. But since the race is finished nothing can be done about it so words said on here don't change anything.

#64 Anomnader

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:58

I don't think a single person (beyond trolling posts) be they a Ferrari, McLaren or other fan has disagreed on what should have being done, I don't anyone thinks they're should have being a full black flag, but that the team should have being told to remove the offending piece.

#65 pacwest

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 16:58

Originally posted by HP
Not black flagged but this should have been appropriate.

http://www.fia.com/r...ppendix_H_a.pdf

e) Black flag with an orange disc 40cm in diameter:
This flag should be used to inform the driver concerned that his
car has mechanical problems likely to endanger himself or others
and means that the he must stop at his pit on the next lap. When
the mechanical problems have been rectifi ed to the satisfaction
of the chief scrutineer the car may rejoin the race.


Dead on.

This makes far more sense than some of the other rules applied today.

#66 EVO2

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:11

Quite clearly the flapping exhaust pipe represented a danger to the public, marshalls and other drivers.

This can hardly be disputed as we have the clear evidence of it flying through the air. It doesn't matter what it weighed, the kinetic energy of any sized piece of metal travelling at 180mph is enormous and like any piece of shrapnel, it would have caused death or the amputation of a limb. I very much doubt whether a driver's visor would have stopped it.

Ferrari should have been told to bring the car into the pits immediately to remove the pipe and if they failed to do so, it should have been black flagged.

Both the FIA and Ferrari acted irresponsibly today.

#67 SirSaltire

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:22

It seems that just about every poster agrees that KR should have been called in and had the part removed. Has anything been mentioned anywhere on any of the F1 websites?

#68 osj

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:26

i'm a ferrari fan, but i think kimi should've been required to remove the broken exhaust part before continuing. there was every chance it could've flown off and been a hazard to another driver.

#69 Lazy Prodigy

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:30

Originally posted by osj
i'm a ferrari fan, but i think kimi should've been required to remove the broken exhaust part before continuing. there was every chance it could've flown off and been a hazard to another driver.

I agree.

#70 speedy

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:41

Originally posted by stormshadow
I see this is the usual post race Ferrari/Ferrari driver bashing thread :rolleyes: . Totally pointless.....:p
I've seen cars with flying mirrors & suspect suspensions not being blackflagged.
Anyway this is an outlet to take out your grief perhaps :kiss:


You nailed it :up:

#71 SirSaltire

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:47

Originally posted by speedy


You nailed it :up:

I can't see much bashing going on here. Most red fans have agreed that the offending object should have been removed.

#72 Ricardo F1

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:53

I think the Speed/Fox guys said it perfectly - if he'd been driving a McLaren he'd have been blackflagged instantly. He was lucky the exhaust flew off into the gravel.

#73 bobqzzi

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 18:58

No, he shouldn't have been flag flagged. The part in question is made fro .040" wall titanium and weighs almost nothing.
What is it with people clamoring for penalties everytime ANYTHING happens.

#74 SirSaltire

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:00

Originally posted by bobqzzi
No, he shouldn't have been flag flagged. The part in question is made fro .040" wall titanium and weighs almost nothing.
What is it with people clamoring for penalties everytime ANYTHING happens.

As someone already said, a bullet from a gun weighs hardly anything. Personaly I wouldn't enjoy having that tube of titanium hitting me at 150mph :lol:

#75 ensign14

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:01

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I think the Speed/Fox guys said it perfectly - if he'd been driving a McLaren he'd have been blackflagged instantly.

Jeez. Even NASCAR country thinks it's fixed.

#76 SirSaltire

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:03

Originally posted by ensign14

Jeez. Even NASCAR country thinks it's fixed.

I think to say its fixed is taking it too far but I am starting to have some sympathy with the idea that the decisions are a little slanted :p

#77 bobqzzi

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:17

Originally posted by SirSaltire
As someone already said, a bullet from a gun weighs hardly anything. Personaly I wouldn't enjoy having that tube of titanium hitting me at 150mph :lol:


Except that could never happen; think about it for a minute and explain how it could hit someone at 150mph...

and a bullet from a gun will be traveling a minimum of 1000 fps, so 681mpg...and it has a very small frontal area so as to penetrate...not at all a valid comparison

#78 bobqzzi

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:19

Originally posted by EVO2
Quite clearly the flapping exhaust pipe represented a danger to the public, marshalls and other drivers.

This can hardly be disputed as we have the clear evidence of it flying through the air. It doesn't matter what it weighed, the kinetic energy of any sized piece of metal travelling at 180mph is enormous and like any piece of shrapnel, it would have caused death or the amputation of a limb. I very much doubt whether a driver's visor would have stopped it.

Ferrari should have been told to bring the car into the pits immediately to remove the pipe and if they failed to do so, it should have been black flagged.

Both the FIA and Ferrari acted irresponsibly today.


Wow..it is a very strange world you live in...where the physically impossible is a certainty to happen in your mind...

#79 MONTOYASPEED

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:21

Originally posted by britishtrident
If Kimi's had been racing in a club race with loose exhaust part he would have been black flagged


And Kimi drives in Formula 1 not in a club race, so no. :)

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#80 scheivlak

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:24

Originally posted by potmotr
When was the last time an F1 car was called into the pits for a similar offence?

Last time I remember someone specifically got the 'meatball' (Black/orange signal) shown was MS, Melbourne 2003.

I think that should have happened today as well (and BTW I don't think he would have lost a place if the stewards did it the moment they should have seen it, which was before his 2nd pitstop)

#81 potmotr

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:27

Originally posted by MONTOYASPEED


And Kimi drives in Formula 1 not in a club race, so no. :)


Sure, but the principle is the same. A loose part which could fly into the path of another competitor and hurt them. With the speeds involved in F1, the principle should be of even greater importance.

#82 Aubwi

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 19:38

I think the point is not that a loose exhaust is perfectly safe, but rather that it is not very dangerous compared to the other dangers that F1 drivers routinely face. They drive 200+ mph and there's so many other things they can crash into besides a lightweight titanium tube.

#83 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:20

Originally posted by jcbc3
So you agree that this particular instance showed bad officiating?


You are asking me?

If you are then I think that he should have been shown the black and orange, there should never be a car racing at speed with previously bolted parts flapping at the end of a lambda sensor (what ever that is).

F1 is filled with bad officiating, but I still accept the calls they make regardless of what I personally think of them, be they given to a driver / team I like or dislike.

And in a sport like this there are many shades of grey, I posted what I would imagine happened, and if that was indeed the scenario, or something comparable, then I think that Ferrari should be called to the carpet, even a ligth piece of magnesium (or what ever they may the exhaust from), still carry a lot of kinitic energy flying of a car at somewhere between 55 km and 307 km.

:cool:

#84 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:28

Originally posted by Red Rocket
Should'nt Kimi have been black flagged when he have flat spotted his Mclaren's tyre a few years back and was bouncing like a basket ball? A flying tyre is much more dangerous to drivers and spectators then a broken exhaust.


No he should not.

You should go here ---> www.fia.com and read up on the rules.

But here are the two that continue being confused in this and the race thread:

d) Black flag:
This flag should be used to inform the driver concerned that he must stop at his pit or at the place designated in the supplementary or championship regulations on the next approach to the pit entry. If a driver fails to comply for any reason, this flag should not be shown for more than four consecutive laps. The decision to show this flag rests solely with the Stewards of the Meeting, the team concerned will immediately be informed of the decision.
e) Black flag with an orange disc 40cm in diameter:
This flag should be used to inform the driver concerned that his car has mechanical problems likely to endanger himself or others and means that the he must stop at his pit on the next lap. When the mechanical problems have been rectifi ed to the satisfaction of the chief scrutineer the car may rejoin the race.

:cool:

#85 pingu666

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 20:56

Originally posted by Aubwi
I think the point is not that a loose exhaust is perfectly safe, but rather that it is not very dangerous compared to the other dangers that F1 drivers routinely face. They drive 200+ mph and there's so many other things they can crash into besides a lightweight titanium tube.


its the potential, thing is you dont know where the tube will end up, and what will hit it and what will happen after that...

remmber a marshal was killed in melbourne i think, he was hit by a wheel that went through a gap in the fence (for track access), that gap was 2cm/2inches bigger than a f1 wheel...

drivers could collide trying to dodgy debris, a marshal would need to needlessly risk his life to remove that debris.

another driver could hit the debris and have his race ruined

shouldnt matter if the effected driver is fighting for the wdc either

#86 AyePirate

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 21:45

The FIA let them skirt the tobacco ban. A flapping exhaust is chump change. :lol:

#87 Raelene

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 22:01

He shouldn't have been black flagged

He should ahve been called in to fix the problem though

#88 RiDE

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 22:03

Yes I think so.

#89 EVO2

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 22:06

Wow..it is a very strange world you live in...where the physically impossible is a certainty to happen in your mind...Bobqzzi

.

Having once had responsibility for ensuring safety at national motor sport events I know that the organisers have a direct obligation to take preventative action to minimise the risk to drivers, marshalls and spectators.

Anyone with any intelligence who saw the exhaust fly off the Ferrari realises that it certainly COULD have caused serious injury. It was pure luck that it didn't.

The mere POSSIBILITY that it could have done so is enough to justify it's removal from the car at the earliest opportunity.

With my experience and the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, there can be no doubt that to allow the Ferrari to circulate with the damaged exhaust was a mistake.

If a piece of metal tubing was flapping about on your roof rack on the motorway, retained only by a piece of wire, a sensible person would surely stop to remove it.

#90 eoin

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 22:10

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I think the Speed/Fox guys said it perfectly - if he'd been driving a McLaren he'd have been blackflagged instantly. He was lucky the exhaust flew off into the gravel.


Like Kimi was in '05 when his flat spotted tyre caused his front suspension to fail at 200mph?

#91 ClubmanGT

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 23:00

Hardcore tifoso here, and yes, he probably should have. :down:

#92 Sakae

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Posted 22 June 2008 - 23:04

Originally posted by britishtrident
If Kimi's had been racing in a club race with loose exhaust part he would have been black flagged as a danger to other compeditors, marshalls and spectators, should he have been allowed to continue racing at Magny-Cours without repairs ?

this is pure rubish if I ever heard one

#93 eoin

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 00:17

Originally posted by ClubmanGT
Hardcore tifoso here, and yes, he probably should have. :down:


It's called common sense. We see drivers driving with mirrors hanging off, damaged front and rear wings, diffusers etc and nothing is done about it. Heck we hear drivers say that they couldn't even hold their head up or see the track due to illness yet they still race on. It's racing, it's dangerous, grow some balls.

#94 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 01:41

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Should Kimi have been Black Flagged for Loose exhaust ?

NO.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


Have you heard of NASCARs being black flagged for dangling bodywork... zero tolerance.

Same applies to F1.

No fuel may be added, the bodywork must be removed as an additional pitstop - standard racing regulations.

So Kimi's appropriate result would been somewhere around 4th-5th.

Clearly an unfair decision from FIA, inconsistent, handing Kimi extra points instead of applying the rules. :)

#95 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 01:43

Originally posted by MiPe
this is pure rubish if I ever heard one


No that is correct.

Do you think you should continue at Brands Hatch in your Ford Cortina if your exhaust is dangling and ultimately flies off into the crowd. :eek: What a menace to the other club racers and spectators!!!

#96 V8 Fireworks

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 01:46

Originally posted by ex Rhodie racer
I don´t think he should have been black flagged, but his pit should have been told to call him in, in order to secure or remove the offending part. It did pose a danger IMO.
I would have been gutted for Kimi though, as he´s not had much luck lately.


Same thing... the meatball flag is a type of black flag. The problem should be rectified straight away in a stand-alone pit stop. :up:

#97 tifosi

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 02:01

Originally posted by V8 Fireworks


Have you heard of NASCARs being black flagged for dangling bodywork... zero tolerance.

:)


Actually I've seen lots of NASCAR cars driving around with all kinds of crap hanging off the car, including entire bumpers. It seems to be fairly random as to weather they are brought in or not.

As far as being black flagged? That is stupid. Why isn't anyone demanding Button be black flagged for haveing a wing loose?

What SHOULD have happened is he should have been told to pit and take care of it. A black flag is just stupid for a that.

#98 Mat

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 03:02

In hingsight, Kimi probably should have been given the black and orange flag.

Having said that, can anyone confirm when the exhaust finally broke away? After reading Domenicalli's comments it seems it had already fallen off by the scheduled pit stop. Anyone know when it actually worked loose?

#99 ViMaMo

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 03:04

Originally posted by britishtrident
If Kimi's had been racing in a club race with loose exhaust part he would have been black flagged as a danger to other compeditors, marshalls and spectators, should he have been allowed to continue racing at Magny-Cours without repairs ?


The exhaust flapping around was pretty dangerous. He should have pitted and removed it.

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#100 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 03:10

Originally posted by Mat
In hingsight, Kimi probably should have been given the black and orange flag.

Having said that, can anyone confirm when the exhaust finally broke away? After reading Domenicalli's comments it seems it had already fallen off by the scheduled pit stop. Anyone know when it actually worked loose?


After the pitstop, not sure of which lap.

:cool: