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Should Kimi have been Black Flagged for Loose exhaust ?


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#101 Ricardo F1

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 04:00

Originally posted by eoin


Like Kimi was in '05 when his flat spotted tyre caused his front suspension to fail at 200mph?

Wow, that's one hell of a tangent. :up:

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#102 Ricardo F1

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 04:01

Originally posted by Mat
In hingsight, Kimi probably should have been given the black and orange flag.

Having said that, can anyone confirm when the exhaust finally broke away? After reading Domenicalli's comments it seems it had already fallen off by the scheduled pit stop. Anyone know when it actually worked loose?

It was before his last pitstop. And fortunately it flew off into a gravel trap. Black and Orange was minimal he should have got - and I'm HAPPY that Kimi managed to bring it home and only lose 4 to Felipe.

#103 Mat

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 04:06

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
It was before his last pitstop. And fortunately it flew off into a gravel trap. Black and Orange was minimal he should have got - and I'm HAPPY that Kimi managed to bring it home and only lose 4 to Felipe.


so one person is saying before, the other person is say after the pit stop. :drunk:

I think Black & Orange would have been the only flag they could possibly show him.

#104 BMW_F1

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 04:11

It was after the last pitstop as per Speed TV commentators. They even commented how surprised they where when the team decided to do nothing to fix it. Black flag would have been too harsh of a penalty. What they should have done was to force the team to fix the pipe.. He could have refueled there as well and change tires till the end.. No biggie.

#105 Most Fastest

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 05:18

I don't think Kimi should have been black flagged at all, but I think they should have called him into the pits once the problem was noticed and required the Ferrari team to remove the "flying" part of the exhaust.

#106 Most Fastest

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 05:20

It was after the last pitstop as per Speed TV commentators. They even commented how surprised they where when the team decided to do nothing to fix it. Black flag would have been too harsh of a penalty. What they should have done was to force the team to fix the pipe.. He could have refueled there as well and change tires till the end.. No biggie.



Totally agree 100%

#107 mursuka80

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 06:07

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I think the Speed/Fox guys said it perfectly - if he'd been driving a McLaren he'd have been blackflagged instantly. He was lucky the exhaust flew off into the gravel.


Yeah, lets take mr Peter"second phase turn,i suck lewise´s cock"windsor as a truth :lol:

#108 HP

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 07:30

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
I think the Speed/Fox guys said it perfectly - if he'd been driving a McLaren he'd have been blackflagged instantly. He was lucky the exhaust flew off into the gravel.

I thought a commentators job is to make events more entertaining and not to take the excitement away. I can understand the frustration, but to feed the persecution complex of Mclaren supporters is just not smart. It seems it has even reached at Ron Dennis doorstep. It forced Whitmarsh to put out a PR note, so that they are not getting in real trouble with the FiA. Thing is even without the black/orange flag Hamilton could have been in second place, all it had required was to advise Hamilton to give back his place earlier. If it's a given for so many of you McLaren supporters that the FiA is out to get McLaren, it would be a no-brainer to call Hamilton and tell him to give back the position. Given the speed of Lewis when he was in free air he would have caught Raikonnen. Instead many decide again to focus on the negatives. At that rate it won't be necessary soon for Mclaren to show up at races anyway, because they have decided that everybody is against them and they will lose anyway. Thankfully however there are folks working at McLaren that see beyond it. Anyway focusing on what they can change and what can be improved by themselves is what will push Mclaren on top. Nothing else. Then you can put a new signature. "Won against all odds."

I still think Raikonnen should have been called in with a black/orange flag, and the same should happen, no matter what team.

However there is no whatsoever connection between Hamilton's pass and the exhaust on Raikonnen's car getting lose. A presumtious connection that the Speed/Fox commentators made.

And I don't think you complained when Coulthard years back, before the race start found a nut in his McLaren, belonging to the car's suspension. His engineers forgot to secure the suspension properly. But the FiA didn't call Coulthard out with a orange/black flag at that point, despite him still being a WDC contender (and threat to Ferrari/MS) for endangering him and others on the track.


#109 ensign14

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 07:56

It's not the point. There are several areas of the media that are treating the way F1 is refereed with pure contempt and communicating it to the Great Unwashed. The fact that this is even plausible is an indictment of the way Formula 1 is stewarded.

#110 pRy

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 08:14

I'm amazed he made it to the finish at all:

http://www.autosport...o.php/id/105374

#111 Enkei

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 08:47

What surprises me is that the pitcrew didn't even try to remove the part during the pitstop when they had the time for it. They just let it hang loose, looked at it and did not undertake any action...

#112 NinjaMouse

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 09:16

Hi All

I don't post much, and know next to nothing about F1 regulations....but I do know a little tiny bit about Inconel......

It is Hard....and I mean un-holy hard. I recall machining through it with a VMC and the rate at which the Inconel got through cutters was.....awesome.....lol.

Point is, I thought it was bloody dangerous having that thing flapping around......I geus one way to look at it would be to imagine a torn and shread heavy food tin......but unlike a food tin, Inconel won't bend or get squashed...it will hold it's form....again, down to it's I believe hardness.......imagine Stainless steel, on steroids........so, you have to imagine getting hit in the head by somthing approaching a baked bean tin in size......but heavier, and harder: a razor sharp and heavy "cookie cutter" flying through the air...........and at what speed?......Who knows.....??

I was more concerned with the crowd to be honest, he should have been pulled in.......

The FIA bleat about safety, yet allow a car to travel at race speeds with effectively a sythe hanging loose of the body work.....

Madness.

#113 pRy

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 09:24

I think my problem with the incident is replays showed the exhaust pipe hanging off the car by what looked like a cable. The obvious risk to me was the exhaust pipe leaving the car at high speed on the straight and hitting a driver who was follwing behind. The worst scenario being it strikes a drivers helmet and the driver crashes.

That to me was a clear case for "Black flag with an orange disc". I don't know if some communication took place between Ferrari and the FIA over the matter or not. I'm also not sure the TV footage of it falling off was live, recent or a delayed replay.

#114 TheCustomer

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 10:37

Originally posted by Enkei
What surprises me is that the pitcrew didn't even try to remove the part during the pitstop when they had the time for it. They just let it hang loose, looked at it and did not undertake any action...


yeah, absolutely...

I'm surprised the race stewards didn't black+orange flag Kimi, to come in & have the loose piece removed
but since they didn't
I'm surprised the race stewards didn't ask ferrari to remove the loose piece at a scheduled pit stop
but since they didn't
I'm surprised that ferrari didn't remove the piece themselves, at the pitstop, to prevent it doing damage to the car or other drivers

It's Kimi's job to get on & race, so he's not at fault.
I do hope the stewards/FIA are reviewing this, and at the next race clarify:
- that they'll black+orange flag a car with loose components that could present a danger to other cars
- or that the Stewards can request that such loose components are removed at the next scheduled pit stop
- and that it's the team's responsibility to maintain the physical integrity & safety of its car at all times.


and yeah, until race stewards show that F1 teams race on a level playing field, it's very easy to look at incidents like this & conclude that some teams are given (take?) the rub of the green.

#115 TheCustomer

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 10:39

Originally posted by pRy
I'm amazed he made it to the finish at all:

http://www.autosport...o.php/id/105374


naaah, that'll polish out mate
:cool: :rotfl: :lol: :smoking:

#116 britishtrident

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 11:20

Originally posted by HP

I thought a commentators job is to make events more entertaining and not to take the excitement away. I can understand the frustration, but to feed the persecution complex of Mclaren supporters is just not smart. It seems it has even reached at Ron Dennis doorstep. It forced Whitmarsh to put out a PR note, so that they are not getting in real trouble with the FiA



Deviating from the subject of the thread I actually took the Whitmarsh statement to imply the opposite ie That Mclaren are reluctant to make waves because of possible draconian consequences.

Not that I cannot give instances from past seasons where McLaren cars have continued lapping when they should have been hauled in. However it does seem that on average if you drive a red or yellow car that in a situation where difficult call has to be made it is more likely to fall in your favour than if you drive a silver car.

Getting back to the core subject of this thread, in my view the guide lines on how the race stewards deal with the scenario where a driver continues circulating the track with substantial components hanging loose or the related scenario where a driver continues for almost a full lap distance with a totally shredded tyre should be reviewed and new guidelines drawn up which should be enforced.

#117 britishtrident

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 11:26

Originally posted by pRy
I think my problem with the incident is replays showed the exhaust pipe hanging off the car by what looked like a cable. The obvious risk to me was the exhaust pipe leaving the car at high speed on the straight and hitting a driver who was follwing behind. The worst scenario being it strikes a drivers helmet and the driver crashes.

That to me was a clear case for "Black flag with an orange disc". I don't know if some communication took place between Ferrari and the FIA over the matter or not. I'm also not sure the TV footage of it falling off was live, recent or a delayed replay.



Yes the exhaust looked to be hanging on by a cable connected to a wideband lambda sensor or maybe a thermo couple ---- one can only presume the sensor connections and cable were the same type as used on road car ie not very substantial.

Ferraris reason for not cutting the cable may have been fear that by cutting the effects on the ecu would be unknown.

#118 jocksaway

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 11:40

Absolutely black/orange.

Maybe the Stewards have never seen the 60s movie Grand Prix!

#119 JForce

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 12:13

I think though it's a case of where do you draw the line?

I expected Ferrari to remove it at the stop, and were surprised they didn't.

But we often see wings become broken at one point after contact, and cars continuing on until it breaks or they're forced to pit.

And Kimi with the tyre in the McLaren is a good point too. There was a reasonable chance that the tyre was going to explode....enough that commentators and fans alike were speculating on it before it happened. Here you have a 200mph, 650kg object which has a reasonable chance of becoming a missile because the team are taking a chance it WONT happen.

Not quite the same thing, but the point is we have to be careful we don't go to the nth degree....everything in an F1 race is POTENTIALLY dangerous, you just have to weigh the chances I suppose.

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#120 stevvy1986

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 12:27

Originally posted by britishtrident
If Kimi's had been racing in a club race with loose exhaust part he would have been black flagged as a danger to other compeditors, marshalls and spectators, should he have been allowed to continue racing at Magny-Cours without repairs ?


no-black and orange flag perhaps,but not a straight black flag

#121 JacnGille

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 12:59

I hope and prayer that a number of the posters in this thread never, ever have absolutely any authority whatsoever in conducting an auto race.

#122 Impulse^

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 13:16

I also think that he should have been black-orange flagged.

Now with that out of the way, does anyone have pictures prooving that the pipe was still attached to the car at the second pitstop? Like someone else pointed out, based on the laptimes I would say that the exhaust pipe flew off already after a few laps. I know the replay was shown quite late in the race, but IMO it's possible that the director missed it at first and only found the footage later on.

I would imagine that the time loss/lap with the exhaust pipe hanging loose would have been such that the pitcrew would have removed the part if it still had been attached to the car.
I just don't think that the replay prooves anything about the time of detachment. I could be wrong ofcourse since I only saw it ones..

#123 NineOneSeven

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 13:43

I am glad that Kimi was able to salvage a 2nd place. However i am also of the opinion that his car was a danger and should have been called in to be fixed or retired.

There should have been a poll to this thread. :)

#124 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 13:51

Originally posted by JacnGille
I hope and prayer that a number of the posters in this thread never, ever have absolutely any authority whatsoever in conducting an auto race.

I think you´re quite safe there. :lol:
Most of them have shinney new anoraks on and can´t quite remember what it looks like outside their computer room. :lol:

#125 Ricardo F1

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 14:16

Originally posted by mursuka80
Yeah, lets take mr Peter"second phase turn,i suck lewise´s cock"windsor as a truth :lol:

Peter Windsor does pitlane reports for Speed, he's not part of the commentary team. But don't let that bother you.

#126 Ricardo F1

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 14:18

Originally posted by HP
Thing is even without the black/orange flag Hamilton could have been in second place, all it had required was to advise Hamilton to give back his place earlier.

For legitimately overtaking Vettel? Why would he do that? Besides behind the scenes McLaren were in discussions back and forth with the stewards over it, it's not like they were sat in the pits and the call came out of the blue.

#127 pacwest

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 14:25

Sir Jackie is in the Black/Orange flag camp:

http://uk.reuters.co...373419020080623

#128 ex Rhodie racer

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 14:30

Originally posted by Ricardo F1
For legitimately overtaking Vettel? Why would he do that?


Ricardo, I hate to be the one who breaks this to you mate, but the horse is dead. You can stop flogging it now. :rolleyes:

#129 pacwest

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 14:36

Schumacher passes Vettel same way: "Tidy one that mate." "Oh he was going to pass him anyway" "Vettel should have yielded"

Next race. Let's get on with it.

#130 pingu666

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 15:02

Originally posted by JForce
I think though it's a case of where do you draw the line?

I expected Ferrari to remove it at the stop, and were surprised they didn't.

But we often see wings become broken at one point after contact, and cars continuing on until it breaks or they're forced to pit.

And Kimi with the tyre in the McLaren is a good point too. There was a reasonable chance that the tyre was going to explode....enough that commentators and fans alike were speculating on it before it happened. Here you have a 200mph, 650kg object which has a reasonable chance of becoming a missile because the team are taking a chance it WONT happen.

Not quite the same thing, but the point is we have to be careful we don't go to the nth degree....everything in an F1 race is POTENTIALLY dangerous, you just have to weigh the chances I suppose.


the tyre was fine, it was the suspension which cried enough ;)

and my bet is they didnt want to cut it off due to not knowing if it would kill the engine/ecu, and/or it could end up taking longer than expected to cut the wires

#131 D.M.N.

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 15:07

There's an argument it could of come off and hit somebody else's car. Hell it could of even come off Kimi's car and smashed into Felipe's car.

#132 GerardF1

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 16:13

Should Kimi's car have been called into the pits to have the pipe removed? Yes

Why wasn't it done? - That would be the question I would be asking and there is no logical answer.

The fact that the pipe did fly off is proof that it was a potential hazard.

In the Williams mirror issue of a few years ago weren't they fined after the race? I remember something happening afterwards.

As usual the stewarts made the wrong call.

#133 AyePirate

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 16:38

I wonder why Ferrari left it on. The TV commentators said it was dangling by a sensor. If they snip the tether does it kill their telemetry?
As sensitive as the aero is on modern cars I just thought it was odd that they left the thing flopping around in the airflow.

#134 Bloggsworth

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 17:03

Just in case people aren't familiar with this years rules:

Each driver is allowed to have one unscheduled engine change without penalty.

#135 tidytracks

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 17:22

Going back to the reason why he wasn't pulled in with a black and orange flag - GPWeek's got an FIA quote saying Charlie Whiting didn't think it was dangerous enough to meirt the flag...


Page 8 GPWeek

#136 speedman13

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 17:35

Chicanes are supposed to be there to slow cars down, so why build a chicane with flat rumble strips that a driver can go over, surely that defeats the object. Its time chicanes were made with edges so high that no driver would dare go over them. We would then have no more of this nonsense of drivers gaining an advantage and then having to slow down till repassed.

#137 noikeee

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 17:56

Originally posted by speedman13
Chicanes are supposed to be there to slow cars down, so why build a chicane with flat rumble strips that a driver can go over, surely that defeats the object. Its time chicanes were made with edges so high that no driver would dare go over them. We would then have no more of this nonsense of drivers gaining an advantage and then having to slow down till repassed.


The chicane isn't there to slow cars down, it's part of the design of the circuit and meant to be a challenging corner.

Putting "edges so high no driver would dare go over them" would increase the risk of dangerous accidents - specially because it is a quick chicane.

#138 Sneezy

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 18:00

I'm wondering. Maybe someone could shed a light. I have the race taped but they showed both Ferrari's so seldom that it might not be a good source. Maybe when visionF1 updates their site it will be a good source.

Here could be a reason why Kimi was not shown the black/orange flag.

This happened when the exhasut first broke loose. He struggled to pass a STR and he had Felipe behind him. Then Felipe passed him in just a few corners. But after that I believe the closest car to Kimi, was Jarno, some 20 seconds behind. I'm not sure Kimi caught up with anymore backmarkers. If Kimi never had another car behind him closer than 18-20 seconds it could have been a reason why the Stewards felt there was no danger to other drivers. Just a thought.

#139 Sneezy

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 18:10

Originally posted by tidytracks
Going back to the reason why he wasn't pulled in with a black and orange flag - GPWeek's got an FIA quote saying Charlie Whiting didn't think it was dangerous enough to meirt the flag...


Page 8 GPWeek


That loosely supports my above theory.

Nice find tidytracks! :up:

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#140 jcbc3

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 18:22

Originally posted by tidytracks
Going back to the reason why he wasn't pulled in with a black and orange flag - GPWeek's got an FIA quote saying Charlie Whiting didn't think it was dangerous enough to meirt the flag...


Page 8 GPWeek


:eek: Could we get Charlie to stand beside the track and fling piece of exhaust after him like the one that flew of the Ferrari. I mean, like the marshalls? Would love to see him not flinching when it hit him. What a tool.

#141 Sneezy

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 18:28

Originally posted by jcbc3


:eek: Could we get Charlie to stand beside the track and fling piece of exhaust after him like the one that flew of the Ferrari. I mean, like the marshalls? Would love to see him not flinching when it hit him. What a tool.


But the rules clearly state that a driver should only get the black/orange flag if he's a danger to himself or other drivers on the track.

1. The exhaust could never hit Kimi because it was attached behind him. Yes, of course, figures.

2. Could it have hit some other driver? What if the next driver was 18-20 seconds behind Kimi? Was there any real danger?

#142 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:04

Originally posted by Mat


so one person is saying before, the other person is say after the pit stop. :drunk:

I think Black & Orange would have been the only flag they could possibly show him.


I guess I should correct my answer then.

"I think that it was after the pitstop,since Brundle and Krawitch were commenting how odd that they did not remove it during the pitstop, and then some times after stated on the air there it goes"

This is the reason that I think it was after, however admit that I could not see it actually 'go'.



:cool:

#143 bond

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:21

It was after.
While kimi was on the pit stop there was a mechanic with a fire extinguer ready, just in case...

#144 jcbc3

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:21

Originally posted by Sneezy


But the rules clearly state that a driver should only get the black/orange flag if he's a danger to himself or other drivers on the track.

1. The exhaust could never hit Kimi because it was attached behind him. Yes, of course, figures.

2. Could it have hit some other driver? What if the next driver was 18-20 seconds behind Kimi? Was there any real danger?



It was dangling when he lapped Bourdais and it was still dangling when Massa overtook him. I don't know how many other cars were in his vicinity, but Charlie had no way of knowing if another car from a pit stop would emerge just in front (to be lapped) or just behind him on track.

I make mistakes on my job. Football refs makes mistake on the pitch. I would just one time like to hear the Stewards or Charlie admit that they made a mistake too.

I am of the opinion that FIA got lucky yesterday. VERY lucky.

#145 JacnGille

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:27

Originally posted by Sneezy

2. Could it have hit some other driver? What if the next driver was 18-20 seconds behind Kimi? Was there any real danger?


Those in charge make decisions based on "worst case scenarios", not "best case".

#146 JacnGille

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:28

Originally posted by bond
It was after.
While kimi was on the pit stop there was a mechanic with a fire extinguer ready, just in case...


Don't the rules state that there must always be a mechanic with an extinguisher durin a stop???

#147 Lada Lover

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:32

Why didn't Kimi just turn on his four way blinkers?

#148 Sneezy

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:50

Originally posted by jcbc3



It was dangling when he lapped Bourdais and it was still dangling when Massa overtook him. I don't know how many other cars were in his vicinity, but Charlie had no way of knowing if another car from a pit stop would emerge just in front (to be lapped) or just behind him on track.

I make mistakes on my job. Football refs makes mistake on the pitch. I would just one time like to hear the Stewards or Charlie admit that they made a mistake too.

I am of the opinion that FIA got lucky yesterday. VERY lucky.


But maybe if a car would have emerged right behind Kimi (out from a pitstop or whatever) prior to the exhaust breaking loose a flag would have been waived?

#149 jcbc3

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 19:59

That flag would be late then. As JacnGille stated, they should consider the scenario "What if it falls away" rather than "what if it stays on". If the exhaust had stayed on they might have an argument that he shouldn't have been called in for repairs. Since we saw that it did fly of, they lost that fig leaf. They blew it and should acknowledge so.

#150 Milt

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 20:31

Originally posted by Sneezy


But maybe if a car would have emerged right behind Kimi (out from a pitstop or whatever) prior to the exhaust breaking loose a flag would have been waived?

On lap 38 (32/70), when ITV first showed that flapping piece of 4" diameter steel (Iconel?) tubing flapping around in the breeze, as Kimi crossed the start/finish line to start lap 39, there were three cars, including his team-mate Massa, all within a second or two, directly behind him.

Massa passes him very soon after that, and the next time we see Kimi was on lap 52, when he made his final pit stop, 14 laps later.
There were TWO 'extra' Ferrari mechanics standing to the right of the car, near the engine, with a very large, red fire extinguisher.
They did nothing but stand there and look.
If they had any wire cutters or pliers available, they were certainly not visible on the ITV shot.

During lap 61, ITV shows a replay of the ~18" piece of 4" pipe come flying off, and going away up in the air, on a left-hand corner.


To give you some clue as to just how much damage such a small, light, little piece of exhaust pipe could do to a human being, try removing the top from one large can of tomatoes (28 fl oz/ 796 ml)
Empty the tomatoes into a bowl, and rinse out the can.
Holding the empty can by the bottom, smash it into your face.
(I would strongly suggest that you wear safety glasses, at the very least, for this little experiment, otherwise serious eye damage could result)

Now imagine that you are traveling down the track at 180~200 MPH and a can 4 times as long, that's at something approaching 1,000°C, hits you square in the face shield....

The race director, Charlie Whiting, is the one man who is directly responsible for allowing this to happen.


EDIT: HERE'S A PIC OF THAT "LIGHT" PIECE OF STEEL!
http://mag.gpweek.co...ge0000008_4.jpg