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WMSC Meeting 25 June 2008


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#1 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:17

Interesting outcomes, seems Max got his way and debate / consultation is now being opened over the governance of F1 and seeking efficiencies.

Also, Magny Cours is back... :-)

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68627
http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/68626

Pitpass seem to have scooped this. Ah Autosport, 2 minutes afterward came to the party :)

"The FIA will enter into a wide-ranging consultation with the Formula One teams to examine plans for improved efficiency, including new technical regulations for the Championship. This will also involve a review of the governance of Formula One," said the statement.

The latter sentence is understood to be a reference to the ongoing dispute between FIA president Max Mosley and commercial rights holder Bernie Ecclestone over future control of the sport.

And the FIA's bid to increase its influence was further emphasised when it announced plans to create a Formula Two championship from the start of 2009 - something that would be in direct competition to the Ecclestone-supported GP2 Series.

"The FIA will invite tenders for a new feeder series for Formula One," the governing body said.


The Formula 2 thing though is very interesting. That seems to be striking directly at Ecclestone's GP2 series and the piggy back that brand is making off of F1.

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#2 F575 GTC

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:23

To be honest, i'm beginning to think they should just rip up the entire F1 rulebook & regulations and just completely start a fresh with the entire thing. I know it's supposed to be the pinnacle of Motorsport but it sure as heck doesn't seem like that when you sit watching it; it's really not a brilliant advertisment for what Motorsport has to offer to those who aren't overly interested in racing.

#3 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:27

I think the outcomes described by the article were good ones. The learned from the drivers fee hikes that it would be better to discuss the planned teams fees' hikes. And it seems productive to talk with teams first about what direction the sport should go in terms of both governance and regulation before committing to concorde.

That is a productive way forward and much better than having a document waved about by Ecclestone yelling sign or die!

It's good because the balance of power has now shifted to the teams and it's far past time they got a reasonable return from the commerical rights holder for _their_ investment. I don't see what value CVC provide that justifies 50% of all revenues.

I also think it's way past time Mosley, the FIA and the teams came to an agreement as to how future regulations would be made. The FIA, ultimately, needs to be able to impose change in the absence of consensus. But teams should have the ability and right as a group to shape the way the sport goes forward. And only in the absence of that ability should the FIA be able to dictate them.

#4 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:28

I'm now a little worried that a split seems even more possible, there is obvious a problem in between Max and Bernice!!!!

#5 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:30

I think the idea of a F2 is a fantastic one. It would be great for all those test drivers of F1 teams to get to not only do testing but also race the same circuits as the race day drivers.

I wonder if they will link a F1 super-license to having completed a season in F2?

#6 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:32

Originally posted by kar
I think the idea of a F2 is a fantastic one. It would be great for all those test drivers of F1 teams to get to not only do testing but also race the same circuits as the race day drivers.

I wonder if they will link a F1 super-license to having completed a season in F2?


200'000 euro! that doesnt sound like a lot, i though the big GP2 teams were spending nearly a million?!

#7 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:33

it would be cool, if it wasn't a spec series...

You had to design and build a car!!!

#8 F575 GTC

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:34

Sounds abit like what Formula Le Mans would be to the LMS. If it's that much cheaper - and links directly to F1 - and has decent cars in it, surely the GP2 teams would jump ship and go to F2?

#9 VoidNT

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:36

Originally posted by Mika Mika
I'm now a little worried that a split seems even more possible, there is obvious a problem in between Max and Bernice!!!!


Obviously Max is heading into this direction. He wants either Bernie and F1 accept him as FIA president or they can go away.

#10 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:50

Originally posted by F575 GTC
Sounds abit like what Formula Le Mans would be to the LMS. If it's that much cheaper - and links directly to F1 - and has decent cars in it, surely the GP2 teams would jump ship and go to F2?


I think that's the point.

It's about killing the 'GP' brand. It's both personal (he's screwing Ecclestone), but it's also about protecting the F1 name and reinforcing it.

By forcing the F1 teams to commit to the FIA F1 Championship within 30 days Max is replaying the device he used to end the GPMA. Either join or don't. But make your mind up quickly or lose out. The teams who are considering a breakaway series will have to make a decision. Max is calling their bluff.

What remains to be seen is just who was bluffing. Given Eccelstone's schizophrenic PR I would think he is. The teams just want to race and there are too many risks if they go with a breakaway series. Especially since Max has changed tack and is putting on the table for Bernie, more money for them.

I think this is effectively setting up the end-game in the Ecclestone->Mosley war. If the teams sign on for 2009 Mosley wins. The teams will be effectively saying we will work with the FIA, and ergo it's president.

#11 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:51

How can it be spec (and it'd have to be for 200Euro, which gets you a season of nothing in any single seater series) and at the same time fill the FIA's requirements for Formua designation usually meaning open chassis and/or engine regs, thus making the budget closer to 2,000,000?

#12 Tigershark

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:53

Originally posted by kar
I think the idea of a F2 is a fantastic one.

Could you explain why? As there is currently very little information it seems to be yet another low-cost spec series with little to justify it's existence other than to put pressure on Ecclestone.

#13 Lifew12

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:55

Ithink the idea of F2 is unnecessary as we already have GP2. Who is going to enter?

#14 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:55

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
How can it be spec (and it'd have to be for 200Euro, which gets you a season of nothing in any single seater series) and at the same time fill the FIA's requirements for Formua designation usually meaning open chassis and/or engine regs, thus making the budget closer to 2,000,000?


That would be cool, so a low cost design F1

#15 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:57

Originally posted by kar
By forcing the F1 teams to commit to the FIA F1 Championship within 30 days Max is replaying the device he used to end the GPMA. Either join or don't. But make your mind up quickly or lose out. The teams who are considering a breakaway series will have to make a decision. Max is calling their bluff.


Love Max or hate him a short time limit is good!!!!!!

I for one am board of all this crap!

#16 Lifew12

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:58

Originally posted by kar




By forcing the F1 teams to commit to the FIA F1 Championship within 30 days Max is replaying the device he used to end the GPMA.


i think you're getting too deep into your wankfest over Mosleys apparent forcing anyone to do anything; the entry window has been known for some time - it was simply confirmed today, as expected.

#17 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 12:58

You cant run spec series like Formula Renault for 200,000euro; how will you run an open formula? And how can you do F2 on 200k when F3 is 500k and more? Surely 2 is going to be somewhere in technology/laptime between 1 and 3?

#18 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:00

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
You cant run spec series like Formula Renault for 200,000euro; how will you run an open formula? And how can you do F2 on 200k when F3 is 500k and more? Surely 2 is going to be somewhere in technology/laptime between 1 and 3?


F3 costs 500k?!?!?!?!?!?

#19 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:01

Originally posted by Tigershark

Could you explain why? As there is currently very little information it seems to be yet another low-cost spec series with little to justify it's existence other than to put pressure on Ecclestone.


The low cost means more teams can enter. I also like the idea of linking F1 and F2 together. I think everyone would like to see F1 test drivers or junior drivers racing the same tracks as the F1 teams.

GP2 for all its strengths is a commercial enterprise. F2, it seems, will be focused on racing. I don't think it's cool either than Ecclestone build his own brands on the coattails of Formula 1. If there is to be a feeder series it makes sense for it to be 'Formula 2', not anything else.

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#20 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:03

Originally posted by Lifew12


i think you're getting too deep into your wankfest over Mosleys apparent forcing anyone to do anything; the entry window has been known for some time - it was simply confirmed today, as expected.


According to yourself Mosley is gone. So isn't it remarkable that he is still there - and delivering on what he says he is going to? For someone that is 'gone' surely nothing from them should 'be expected'.

You know, in the real world.


#21 Lifew12

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:06

Originally posted by kar


According to yourself Mosley is gone. So isn't it remarkable that he is still there - and delivering on what he says he is going to?

But you keep on plugging there buddy, don't let reality seep into your alternate universe :) :up:


Delivering? talking bollocks, you mean - an F1 feeder series for the cost of less than F3? How's he going to deliver that, then? Who is he, Paul Daniels?

As i said, your comment about him 'forcing everybody etc' simply highlights how far up his arse you are - the entry window has been known for some time, and was simply confirmed today, as the reports clearly state.

And i like you previous comment about the low cost meaning more teams can enter - how? Why? and what? As Ross has already pointed out - and has been commented on on the front page - it's pie in the sky, it can't be done.

#22 Orin

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:07

So what Ecclestone does...

Originally posted by kar

That is a productive way forward and much better than having a document waved about by Ecclestone yelling sign or die!


...is reprehensible, but when Mosley does it...

Originally posted by kar

By forcing the F1 teams to commit to the FIA F1 Championship within 30 days Max is replaying the device he used to end the GPMA. Either join or don't. But make your mind up quickly or lose out. The teams who are considering a breakaway series will have to make a decision. Max is calling their bluff.


...it's perfectly OK? Not very coherent, wouldn't it be more honest to acknowledge they're as bad as each other?

#23 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:08

Apparantly Bernice and Flav sold GP2 to CVC for 150mil...

#24 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:09

Originally posted by Lifew12
And i like you previous comment about the low cost meaning more teams can enter - how? Why? and what? As Ross has already pointed out - and has been commented on on the front page - it's pie in the sky, it can't be done.


Remains to be seen doesn't it. I guess you'll accept I don't take your word on what can and can't be done, and indeed what is there and what is gone.

#25 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:11

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Apparantly Bernice and Flav sold GP2 to CVC for 150mil...


But Bernie still owns 'GP1' I think. If GP2 loses its value as a brand so too does GP1.

In either case, if GPx ceases getting exposure through its proximity to F1 it loses its value both as an investment and also as a drop in replacement series.

#26 Sébastien

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:12

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Apparantly Bernice and Flav sold GP2 to CVC for 150mil...

Yep here's the story from last year http://www.pitpass.c...es_art_id=33215

#27 HP

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:13

Seems the main issue creating F2 is control, not racing. If that goes ahead, I'd not be surprised if the EU commission steps in quickly and investigate about a monopoly.

And I think it would not be the worst thing to do. As noble the intention might start out (I have some doubts about that), sooner or later there will be issues popping up.

And when I see that every racing series the FiA governs could do much better, then the whole idea of F2 seems not very appealing to me.

There's another issue as well. What if CVC, Bernie decide to go create the reversal, a GP1 series? Considering that most, if not all track negotions go through Bernie, F1 can be screwed very quickly.

I don't think anything good will come from this idea, and if they go ahead and a war starts, it's teams and fans that will suffer most from it. When people fight about power and money, then they don't care if the product itself suffers in the short mid term.

And lest I forget, when I see the FiA speaking up for the teams to get more revenues, then I think the ultimate motive behind is to get the teams behind the FiA. Just remember who was on which side during the FiA/GPMA struggle. Whoever serves FiA's interest best is suddenly their favorite son it seems to me. If the FiA comes out victorious, expect teams to be put on a short line again.

#28 Lifew12

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:13

Originally posted by kar


Remains to be seen doesn't it. I guess you'll accept I don't take your word on what can and can't be done, and indeed what is there and what is gone.


So I guess the word of the GP2 team manager - quoted on the front page explaining it costs 300k to run Formula BMW - does not count, either? No, of course - you know better, don;t you.

It doesn;t remain to be seen at all; it's already been dismissed by people who know more than you or I.

#29 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:16

Originally posted by HP
There's another issue as well. What if CVC, Bernie decide to go create the reversal, a GP1 series? Considering that most, if not all track negotions go through Bernie, F1 can be screwed very quickly.


They go through FOM, which itself is betrothed to the FIA.

The tracks could well decide not to deal with FOM and deal with a new company fronted by whoever to run whatever series they like. But it's not just a matter of Bernie and CVC taking a bat and ball and playing with new friends.

The details of GP2 and CVC

http://www.telegraph...19/cncvc119.xml

Seems Bernie owns the trademarks which are the important things. F2 seems about killing off his trademarks and thereby also the risk of a drop in replacement for F1.

#30 Andy35

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:39

F2 is just a way of applying political pressure.

If it did come to fruition then they will not be racing at the F1 meetings and so will not get the association or exposure that GP2 does. It's dooemd already given that.

It will be interesting to see if the teams do join up during the 1 month deadline. What's he given them recently? He's given them the view of very large increases in fees to perhaps pay, not once but twice. He's also offered them more money, but that's not his to offer currently (unlike the fees which are). I'd not be too surprised if the teams stood firm this time and called the FIA's bluff. Eventually the sheep will turn on the willy old sheepdog when they sense he is weakened.

Regards

Andy

#31 Maldwyn

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 13:54

Originally posted by kar
That is a productive way forward and much better than having a document waved about by Ecclestone yelling sign or die!

There's nothing productive about any of this. It's designed to be divisive, although the F2 "idea" is simply childish IMHO.

#32 VoidNT

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:05

It's all up to the teams now. Do they want to have any deals with the twaddler who is hiding in a dungeon and writing an unfounded resolutions or they finally have guts to say no more.

#33 Melbourne Park

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:07

Originally posted by HP
Seems the main issue creating F2 is control, not racing. If that goes ahead, I'd not be surprised if the EU commission steps in quickly and investigate about a monopoly.

And I think it would not be the worst thing to do. As noble the intention might start out (I have some doubts about that), sooner or later there will be issues popping up.

And when I see that every racing series the FiA governs could do much better, then the whole idea of F2 seems not very appealing to me.

There's another issue as well. What if CVC, Bernie decide to go create the reversal, a GP1 series? Considering that most, if not all track negotions go through Bernie, F1 can be screwed very quickly.

I don't think anything good will come from this idea, and if they go ahead and a war starts, it's teams and fans that will suffer most from it. When people fight about power and money, then they don't care if the product itself suffers in the short mid term.

And lest I forget, when I see the FiA speaking up for the teams to get more revenues, then I think the ultimate motive behind is to get the teams behind the FiA. Just remember who was on which side during the FiA/GPMA struggle. Whoever serves FiA's interest best is suddenly their favorite son it seems to me. If the FIA comes out victorious, expect teams to be put on a short line again.


:up:
:up:
:up:
:up:
:up:
:up:

#34 Lifew12

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:13

Look, lets be honest - this F2 is not going to happen. They intend to begin in 2009 - it's almost July 2008; they have to get all the entrants sorted, the cars, the engines, the teams, the drivers, the sponsors, then they have to sort out the circuits they are going to race at, sort terms with the organisers, work out the commercial deals involved, draft the rules and regulations to everyones satisfaction, and that's just the start.

We're not talking about baking a cake here.

#35 Frans

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:20

oooooooooh damn, ... stupid Magny course is back again ..... it just forgot to leave ??? Or was Bernie just hoaxing?

#36 glorius&victorius

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:27

I am a bit on a fast track trying to catch up with the news...

Questions:

1) What would happen if the majority of teams don't submit their entry for 2009?
What scenarios could unfold?

2) Could we see a new GP1 racing series led by Bernie?

3) Without the FIA could they manage?

#37 anbeck

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:30

Well, the Warsaw Pact was created as a token for negociations, kinda: Stalin: "You give up NATO, we give up the Warswaw Pact."

Same of GPMA. So why shouldn't Max have the right to play the game with the same rules?

And even the Max-haters would have to acknowledge Max's talent for brinksmanship if by the end of the year he would be the winner...

#38 Josta

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:39

Originally posted by Lifew12
Look, lets be honest - this F2 is not going to happen. They intend to begin in 2009 - it's almost July 2008; they have to get all the entrants sorted, the cars, the engines, the teams, the drivers, the sponsors, then they have to sort out the circuits they are going to race at, sort terms with the organisers, work out the commercial deals involved, draft the rules and regulations to everyones satisfaction, and that's just the start.

We're not talking about baking a cake here.


Max can do it. He will bribe a bunch of F3 teams and their drivers, threaten a manufacturer for engines, give the MP4/23 designs that he got when he sent people to Woking to the teams for the car design. He could easily sort out sponsorship with a host of whips and chains companies, porn shops and dungeon madames. As for tracks, that would be easy. He could rely on a bunch of African and Arab countries to support it. As for rules and regulations, he can do the same as in F1. Drop some acid and start writing rules. If anyone doesn't like them, he can just call them names.

After all of that he will still have time to sit down and have a nice cup of tea. :D

#39 One

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:44

Max promissed many more in the past, and it is important to figure it out for those wold want to enter such game, just how much of his promisses have come true, to make a Formula One payable. F2 story it sounds sweet to sighn up but after signed up you may have to pay just as much as ten times more, just after a few monthes. In such cases, if you have no budget left Max wait you at the door with his lawers.


No go zone to me, It sounds too good.

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#40 Sébastien

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:47

Originally posted by Josta
After all of that he will still have time to sit down and have a nice cup of tea. :D

Dunno about sitting down though Josta ;)

#41 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 14:47

Given the price limitation i think a F1 breakaway is more lightly than F2 from happening...

#42 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 15:17

I'm sure the price is a goal, not a line in the sand.

Typical Mosley throws something out there to start debate and moves on from there. Remember the dreadful CVG wing F1 was to have foisted upon it?

It rather fostered debate and that led to the (on the aero front at least) rational regs we have for next year.

I guess by setting such a low bar it will force tenderers to be as efficient and cost effective as they can. If no one can come in on the cheap then they still will be doing it far more cheaply than if the 'theoretical' budget was 500,000 or 1,000,000 euros.

#43 Mika Mika

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 15:18

I hope so!!!! the way things are going 200'000eu wont pay for a years worth of fuel!!!!

#44 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 15:26

Who knows the specifics, on one respect I agree with Lifew, it doesn't seem likely this will be ready in time for next season.

But anyway the idea fundamentally is exciting, and will get people talking. What can, and can't be done, no doubt, will become quickly apparent. The devil though will of course be in the detail.

#45 Milt

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 15:44

Even if the proposed F2 only raced at the 10 "European" venues (including Turkey) next year, they would need at least ONE transporter, for one car, plus a few spare parts.

Cost for a transporter... roughly $70,000, plus the cost of the custom trailer, so that leaves, optimistically, about $100,000 for the race car and one spare engine, for the entire season
Forget the cost of the petrol to get it and the team there, or the wages, and hotel costs, for a minimum of 6 pit personnel.
Forget about the cost of any sort of 'headquarters', or 'race engineer'.

There comes a point where we all need to look at the reality, and financial feasibility, of this proposal, and come to the conclusion that Max really has gone totally insane.

You would be hard pressed to run a "Street Stocker", towing it on a flatbed trailer, and sleeping in a tent at each venue, touring the circuit in the US, for that kind of money

#46 kar

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 15:52

As was remarked upon in the previous thread, it's probably a figure of 200,000 for the chassis alone. Not taking into account running costs.

From that then it seems to be on the level of GP2, which is 190,000 per car.

#47 anbeck

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 15:59

Originally posted by kar
As was remarked upon in the previous thread, it's probably a figure of 200,000 for the chassis alone. Not taking into account running costs.


Nope, the FIA is pretty clear on this, saying "budget of around EUR 200.000 a car per season"[1].

Hmmm.


[1] http://www.fia.com/e...msc_250608.aspx

#48 Sébastien

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 16:20

Originally posted by anbeck


Nope, the FIA is pretty clear on this, saying "budget of around EUR 200.000 a car per season"[1].

Hmmm.


[1] http://www.fia.com/e...msc_250608.aspx

The FIA press release says:
" It is hoped this can be achieved within a budget of around €200,000 a car per season."

There you go, you see it always pays off to read press releases several times.

#49 Milt

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 16:42

Originally posted by SĂ©bastien

The FIA press release says:
" It is hoped this can be achieved within a budget of around €200,000 a car per season."

There you go, you see it always pays off to read press releases several times.

That's not a 'hope' SĂ©bastien, it's a totally unrealistic pipe dream.

Several years ago, Paul Stoddard was quoted as saying that it cost, on average, 2 million to go to each F1 event.
Please explain how a F2 team could, for one tenth of that cost to the F2 team, attend just ONE F1 event?
Free shipping, free airfare, free hotel accommodations, free hire cars, free food?
Forget any wages (just for the sake of this discussion), for race engineers, mechanics, pit crew... hell, I'd do it for free!

#50 Sébastien

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Posted 25 June 2008 - 17:09

Originally posted by Milt
That's not a 'hope' SĂ©bastien, it's a totally unrealistic pipe dream.

Merely explaining that by phrasing it this way every option remains open and in the mean time the FIA are severely denting the "asset" GP2 that CVC thought was valued at 150 million, let's see what that does in the negotiations with the CRH.

Oh and please spare me the Paul -tosser- Stoddard quotes Milt, I guess from the 2 million he "spent" to go to each F1 event, 1.2 million was spend on his airline flying to the event and on PS-consultancy fees, because he sure as hell didn't spend it on his racing team.