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#101 bradbury west

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 19:42

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by john winfield That reminds me, I have some old small Donington prints (no negatives I'm afraid) from 1936/7/8, taken by my wife's great uncle. I'll work out how to post them and find or start a thread.

John, follow Ray Bell's ever-patient step by step guide here
http://forums.autosp...y=&pagenumber=9
on page 9, post 351. It is idiot proof. I can use it. I look forward to seeing the photographs. There are plenty of people here who would help you to re-edit them with modern techno-stuff. Family owned and created shots should be OK from a copyright point of view too, I suspect.
Roger Lund.

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#102 Jack-the-Lad

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 20:38

Originally posted by frogeye59


But Donington's joint CEO Simon Gillett – while refusing to confirm exact details of the financial arrangements – outlined a scheme whereby the upgrade could be funded by a debenture scheme

"But we'll be announcing a fan-powered debenture scheme in the next couple of weeks."




:lol:


Jack

#103 sterling49

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 20:41

Where do we form a line to donate our money............any takers? ...sorry, givers :rotfl:

#104 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 21:55

Originally posted by john winfield
That reminds me, I have some old small Donington prints (no negatives I'm afraid) from 1936/7/8, taken by my wife's great uncle. I'll work out how to post them and find or start a thread.
John

Adding them to this one would be good:

http://forums.autosp...&threadid=67962

Looking forward to it John :up:

#105 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 22:01

Originally posted by frogeye59

"But we'll be announcing a fan-powered debenture scheme in the next couple of weeks."

I'm sure there's a joke involving Bernie and the BT46B in there somewhere, but I'm damned if I can think of one!

#106 john winfield

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 22:24

Roger and Vitesse - thanks for the tips. I'll have a go over the next few days. Some shots are rather distant, some a little blurred, a few are from the Grand Prix, others are from smaller meetings. I think I have identified the GP cars and drivers but I'm sure you and others will recognise a lot more than I can. The shots certainly show how wooded the circuit used to be!
John

#107 RStock

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 23:20

In case anyone has a doubt about Bernies true motives here .

“We won’t come back,” Ecclestone, who will be 89 when the ten-year arrangement with Donington is scheduled to expire, said. “We’re in the same situation as we were before Donington came into the deal. I am sure they will be ready but, if not, we will sign with another country. There won’t be a British Grand Prix. Pure and simple.”


Source > Times Online

#108 HDonaldCapps

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 23:46

Since we once had the "Swiss F1 Race" in France, simply conduct the "British F1 Race" some place eager for such an opportunity. Perhaps Kuwait can join the formula one club with its other buddies in the Gulf? That would work since the pirate emirate was once a British protectorate -- close enough, I would guess, to count for a British connection.

#109 Buford

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 23:53

So was the US maybe they should have the British Grand Prix at somewhere like oh??? Watkins Glen?

#110 Vitesse2

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Posted 06 July 2008 - 23:59

Originally posted by Buford
So was the US maybe they should have the British Grand Prix at somewhere like oh??? Watkins Glen?

I'd prefer Laguna Seca (Corkscrew would be even better than Craner), but it would have to be at an unfeasibly early hour to catch prime-time European TV...

#111 RTH

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 06:06

Originally posted by sterling49

It has to be said, the track was suitable for F1 in the previous decade, so why not now? Alter the cars say I, make them the size they were previously, not the leviathans they are now
Make them beautiful again, get rid of all the GIZMOs, and once again, lets see who has the deftness of touch, the defining balance, the mechanical sympathy, where passing is once again achieved on track, and not in the pits......I must have watched (and listened on the way to mums) to a different race to the commentator, a great race it was not, a wet race granted and Lewis dominated, but a great race ?


Spot on Sterling.

I can't help thinking that in about 9 months time , nothing will have happened and we may hear a short announcement from the Donington circuit operators saying it has not been possible to raise the required funding and together with planning difficulties the decision has been made to withdraw from the plan to hold the British GP in 2010 ?
Because to me , it looks like mission impossible given the people you would have to please.

#112 Andrew Kitson

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 06:48

The talk in the paddock all weekend from almost everyone you spoke to was no way would it happen at Donington. Bernie making waves to finally spring the BRDC into action. Everyone was saying 'bet we'll still be here for another 5-10 years'. We've seen and heard plans for Brands, Moscow, Mexico and loads of other places that apparantly had contracts in their pockets. There will be the cost of a long stretch of new road at Donington for a start, from the M1 and avoiding the airport entrance. It's bad enough now queuing for F3 meetings!

Donington would be I think be completely bulldozed and totally unrecognisable. If the BRDC are struggling to find the money, how will this other lot find it in these 'credit crunch' times? A nice thought of it being at Donington but don't for a second think the place will look anything like it does today, the lap is far too short, a little over a minute even with the current GP loop in the dry, so the circuit configuration would change significantly.

#113 Rob29

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 07:02

Don't see why the present Donington circuit is 'too short' for the 20 cars in F1? Monaco is shorter.As to access -a rail link to the airport is due to open in december.I used to catch the airport bus which stopped outside the museum-don't remember any traffic problems up to F2 level.

#114 kayemod

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 07:04

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I'd prefer Laguna Seca (Corkscrew would be even better than Craner), but it would have to be at an unfeasibly early hour to catch prime-time European TV...


You really think that the Corkscrew would still be there after Health & Safety, sorry I mean Hermann Tilke, had been sent in to 'improve' the track?

#115 Allan Lupton

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 07:39

Originally posted by Vitesse2
quote:Originally posted by frogeye59



"But we'll be announcing a fan-powered debenture scheme in the next couple of weeks."

I'm sure there's a joke involving Bernie and the BT46B in there somewhere, but I'm damned if I can think of one!


Something to do with excrement interacting with the rotating assembly? :cat:

#116 RAP

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:22

As I understand it a Debenture is a loan not secured on specific assets. As the contract is for 10 years I assume that would be the maximum length of the debenture. At the end the infrastucture will be worth little as it will be out of date. So to my simple mind this means the GP needs to generate free cash flow of some £15m a year, assuming 5% interest is paid. After operating costs and Bernies fee that means, what, £30m from tickets sales ? Say 150,000 spectators = £200 each !! What magic money I have missed ?

#117 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 09:27

Originally posted by Gary C
I'll have to agree with the above poster. I've been racing with the HSCC for 5 seasons now. The prices we are charged by the BRDC to hire the circuit (and the accompanying entrance fees for the amount of on-track time) is absolutely outrageous. To compare, in the US, for a comparable clubbie, they get virtually DOUBLE the amount of track time for the same amount of money. Perhaps it IS time to emigrate??


You get double the amount of everything for the money in the USA compared to Britain...fuel, phone calls, property, burgers... even cylinders under the hood of your car (not so much these days I will admit).

The term 'rip-off-Britain' was not coined lightly or without a great deal of substance. :

#118 kayemod

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:01

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


You get double the amount of everything for the money in the USA compared to Britain... :


Sounds good, would that mean we'd get a race like the British GP for 'only' $11million, or would we still have to cough up the full $22million, and have the pleasure of two Ecclestones?

#119 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:33

Originally posted by Vitesse2

I'd prefer Laguna Seca (Corkscrew would be even better than Craner), but it would have to be at an unfeasibly early hour to catch prime-time European TV...


Old chap, lets first and foremost forget the idea that a future Grand Prix will be held on ANY track with interesting corners, any with real elevation chances or any that will give a high average speed...
FOM only looks for slow corners (so-say much safer, but really because they offer lots more TV time for the trackside banners ) Acres of run off and a first, foremost and above all else, without exception - a massive wad of cash.
Safe to say, few existing circuits need apply unless they plan to bulldoze what is already in place and start afresh.

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#120 Kpy

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:38

Originally posted by simonlewisbooks


You get double the amount of everything for the money in the USA compared to Britain...fuel, phone calls, property, burgers... even cylinders under the hood of your car (not so much these days I will admit).

The term 'rip-off-Britain' was not coined lightly or without a great deal of substance. :



The current rate of exchange between two countries with vastly different economies, and which are separated by thousands of miles, has far more to do with it than any "rip-off".

#121 FrankB

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:50

Originally posted by HDonaldCapps
Since we once had the "Swiss F1 Race" in France, simply conduct the "British F1 Race" some place eager for such an opportunity. Perhaps Kuwait can join the formula one club with its other buddies in the Gulf? That would work since the pirate emirate was once a British protectorate -- close enough, I would guess, to count for a British connection.


Why go as far afield as Kuwait. Gibraltar would be ideal; it's still a European location, is relatively close to UK physically, culturally, politically and in time zones, and it already has an established tradition of hosting a GP. ;)

#122 Stephen W

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:51

Originally posted by kayemod

... and have the pleasure of two Ecclestones?


Now that is just silly! You know full well that if there were two Bernies then the world would stop spinning!

#123 FrankB

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:00

Originally posted by RAP
What magic money I have missed ?


Would the debenture scheme be such that you buy a guaranteed seat at the GP for each of the ten years. Now you might persude some people that paying up front now for seats that might not be there at races to be run between 2 and 12 years in the future is a good idea. You might even convince some of them that it's worth £2500 to buy your seat in advance for those 10 years. But are there 40000 people out there with £2500 burning a hole in their pocket?

Also - having sold those seats in advance, that's 40000 less seats available to generate revenue each and every year.

#124 simonlewisbooks

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:27

Originally posted by Kpy



The current rate of exchange between two countries with vastly different economies, and which are separated by thousands of miles, has far more to do with it than any "rip-off".


Here' a little example given to me by a chap who runs a very big business on both sides of the Atlantic while handing over a credit card to buy a few books -

"How much do you get charged for that Visa transaction?"
"about 3.5%"
"Jesus! In the States it's about 0.25% ! You should get yourself a US bank account, it'll save you a fortune!"

The fact Britain and the US are thousands of miles apart means zip. The major banks are all international so this little example highlights how fees for the very same service using most probably the very same banks and even the same computer system , operated by the same person, possibly in a country thousands of miles away from either Britain or the US , compare.

Like I said . Rip-off Britain.... wish it wasn't, but it is!

#125 petefenelon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:19

Originally posted by kayemod


You really think that the Corkscrew would still be there after Health & Safety, sorry I mean Hermann Tilke, had been sent in to 'improve' the track?


There are circuits that are too good for modern sterile F1. Laguna, Road America and the Glen are too precious to butcher. In Britain, I'm glad Oulton stopped hosting non-championship F1 races - it means we've still got substantially the same circuit as ever.

Can you imagine the fate of the Oesterreichring befalling any of them?

Let's hope Donington survives and the British GP gets the home it deserves - the uninspiring concrete and prefabricated wastelands of Silverstone.

#126 petefenelon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:21

Originally posted by FrankB


Would the debenture scheme be such that you buy a guaranteed seat at the GP for each of the ten years. Now you might persude some people that paying up front now for seats that might not be there at races to be run between 2 and 12 years in the future is a good idea. You might even convince some of them that it's worth £2500 to buy your seat in advance for those 10 years. But are there 40000 people out there with £2500 burning a hole in their pocket?

Also - having sold those seats in advance, that's 40000 less seats available to generate revenue each and every year.


One also needs an act of faith to believe that there will still be Grands Prix in Western Europe in ten years' time.
Were I still interested in contemporary F1 I'd be more comfortable buying a debenture somewhere like Bahrain, where (until the oil runs out ;)) F1 is probably 'safe'.

#127 petefenelon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:23

Originally posted by Rob29
Don't see why the present Donington circuit is 'too short' for the 20 cars in F1? Monaco is shorter.As to access -a rail link to the airport is due to open in december.I used to catch the airport bus which stopped outside the museum-don't remember any traffic problems up to F2 level.


In real racing they often have to announce the crowd changes to the drivers; in F1 tens of thousands of spectators flee their homes in the direction of the circuit to avoid having to listen to James Allen on the telly...

...although I've been stuck in traffic jams several miles away from the circuit for BTCC, the freebie Renault meeting, FIA GT/WTCC, etc. etc.

#128 Alan Cox

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:27

Taken from this morning's Daily Telegraph 'Silverstone diary' by one Jasper Gerard:

Ecclestone snaps back

Bernie Ecclestone was asked if Donnington (sic) would be ready in time for the British Grand Prix in 2010. "How should I know?" he shot back. "I'm not a civil engineer". He says Silverstone is finished for Formula One as he believes its owners are not prepare to take the financial risks to improve it. So if not Donnington, it will be abroad. Hmm: as the day closed with a race of ancient Mk 9 Jaguars, S-Types and Hilman Imps, Diary was left nostalgic for the great days of speed never to be enjoyed again...


Nice to know that BE is happy to jump into bed with a company that has no knowledge or experience of running a Grand Prix in preference to the outfit that has some track record in that department.

(PS It would be nice of our leading daily newspapers could, at least, get the spelling correct)

#129 bradbury west

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:28

The seemingly definitive word from BCE on the Daily Mail on Line
http://www.dailymail...ready-time.html
There you seem to have it in a nutshell
Roger Lund.

#130 Alan Cox

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:34

Originally posted by bradbury west
http://www.dailymail...ready-time.html


Gosh! I'm glad that I didn't see this over my breakfast. The frightening countenance would have made me choke over my wheaty-bangs.

#131 RTH

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:41

The chances of raising this money by debenture when the figures are analysed as above makes it all seem even more like fantasy.

From what we have now heard from both sides we can expect the final British Grand Prix to take place this time next year ?

#132 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:48

Originally posted by Rob29
As to access -a rail link to the airport is due to open in december.I used to catch the airport bus which stopped outside the museum-don't remember any traffic problems up to F2 level.

The rail link seems to be to "near the airport" not "to the airport" in the way that Gatwick or Heathrow have their own stations. Another "Parkway" station, adjacent to J24 of the M1 - so any passengers arriving there would have to get a bus past the airport to get to the circuit: along the already congested A453!

#133 Stephen W

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 13:40

Originally posted by Vitesse2

The rail link seems to be to "near the airport" not "to the airport" in the way that Gatwick or Heathrow have their own stations. Another "Parkway" station, adjacent to J24 of the M1 - so any passengers arriving there would have to get a bus past the airport to get to the circuit: along the already congested A453!


Unless the free thinking local authority build a Donington Park railway station! It need only be manned when there were race meetings and might prove a far easier and cheaper way to get there given the rising price of petrol & diesel.

:wave:

#134 alansart

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 13:42

Originally posted by Stephen W


Unless the free thinking local authority build a Donington Park railway station! It need only be manned when there were race meetings and might prove a far easier and cheaper way to get there given the rising price of petrol & diesel.

:wave:


Like Crystal Palace in the old days :)

#135 Vitesse2

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 13:59

And a new railway line? The Parkway station is going to be at Ratcliffe-on-Soar and the railway line runs to the east of Kegworth!

#136 Mallory Dan

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 14:01

Originally posted by Stephen W


Unless the free thinking local authority build a Donington Park railway station! It need only be manned when there were race meetings and might prove a far easier and cheaper way to get there given the rising price of petrol & diesel.

:wave:


Unfortunately Steve, the Midland main line is about 5 miles away, as the crow flies from the airport/track. It would be a hell of a job to put a station in next to them. There's a freight only line slightly nearer, Stenson to Sheet Stores Junctions, but even this is around 2 miles away at a guess. Extremely expensive to build either option I'd have thought.

#137 stuartbrs

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 14:06

A few weeks ago there was some excitment on this board that modern F1 could return to Rouen...

I do like how Silverstone still looks like a circuit from a previous era, not the layout but the haphazard billboards, fences, and bits of old tarmac, at least it looks that way on the telly.

I dont see why they want to extend Donnington, I think a Grand Prix on a shorter course would be more exciting than watching cars blast around corners that all look the same in the desert. The clinical tracks lack so much soul.. I think these modern cars would be superb on some dramatic bits of hilly tarmac. Its amazing how boring those new tracks make these amazing cars look, and they are amazing, violent, noisy super fast missiles. It should be anything but boring.. drop fuel stops, put them on the old Zandvoort or Rouen, break up some tarmac and sprinkle some rain and it would make great TV.

Oh, and fix the bloody telecast... it really is complete crap. Bring back the onboard camera at the drivers shoulder, get rid of those anti vibration onboard cameras, put some excitement back into the telecast. My pet hate, is the high long shot of cars coming head on down the straight..destroys any sense of speed. Every now and then I put on the Adelaide GP of 1994, mainly because so much of it is from the onboard camera`s, and you get a real sense of how uncomfortable it is, and its exciting.

#138 Alan Cox

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 14:16

In these days of very short purse strings, the chance of a new station for use on odd weekends, when there are limited resources available to service the existing national rail infrastructure, must be a non-starter. Nice idea, though.

#139 ghinzani

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 14:23

Originally posted by Tony Lethbridge
Having been involved for the past three years in an attempt to obtain planning permission for a 300 metre speedway track with one small grandstand on the infield of Haldon Racecourse in darkest Devonshire I must totally agree with FrankB that it will take more than two years to get £100 million worth of changes approved for Donnington. Do I not recall reading somewhere that Tom Wheatcroft abandoned plans to include the original Melbourne Hairpin in his restored circuit due to the land coming under a different planning authority thus, having had had so much difficulty with the planners already, he didn't need twice the hassle?

Rather than ruin Donnington and if the GP must leave Silverstone why not build a round the houses circuit on the Olympic site in London?


Tony, compeltely OT but what Speedway team were you hoping to entice to the track, the Falcons? Any chance you could design a kart track inside the speedway track?

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#140 Tony Lethbridge

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 15:13

Originally posted by ghinzani


Tony, compeltely OT but what Speedway team were you hoping to entice to the track, the Falcons? Any chance you could design a kart track inside the speedway track?


Absolutely right Ghinzani. The planning application is now in and hopefully the Exeter Falcons will be racing again in 2009. The delay was caused by Natural England fearing that the two acres of gorse we wanted to remove 'might' make a couple of Dartford Warblers homeless despite there still being another 240 acres that they could use. A kart track could be a possibility on the centre green as this has already been done at Coventry and Oxford although I think these are rental tracks rather than for racing. The long disbanded Exeter and District Kart Club actually had talks with the Racecourse owners regarding building a track there in the sixties but both this and a motor racing circuit, proposed a few years later, fell victim to the noise lobby.

My apologies to everyone for mispelling Donington in an earlier posting but I was rather upset at the time!!!

#141 RTH

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 16:10

What is the noise regulation requirement currently at Donington ? Most of the recent formulae make silencers and/or catalytic converters mandatory including much of the historic car movement.

Just because its next to an airport means nothing to a local authority.

Goodwood circuit for instance , Chichester council installed their own microphone with its own wind turbine to generate electricity and landline direct to the council offices so that officials could listen in at any time and measure noise levels.

Suppose the Donington local council wants silencers fitted to F1 cars for health & safety and environmental reasons , because the arrival of F1 cars would bring with it noise volume and duration at a level never pre-existing in the area before ?


Nowadays wildlife, noise, smell, fumes, disruption to rare plants and birds & animals generally, pollution, cutting footpaths & bridleways are all strong reasons to deny development permission in the UK this is all a great deal tighter now than even 10 years ago.
Local authorities are charged by central government with conservation responsibilities in a number of respects these days.

#142 Derwent Motorsport

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 16:12

So Gillett has no planning permission and no money. A Donington GP in 2010 no way!

#143 Rob29

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 16:27

Originally posted by Mallory Dan


Unfortunately Steve, the Midland main line is about 5 miles away, as the crow flies from the airport/track. It would be a hell of a job to put a station in next to them. There's a freight only line slightly nearer, Stenson to Sheet Stores Junctions, but even this is around 2 miles away at a guess. Extremely expensive to build either option I'd have thought.

Le Mans has built a tram line to the circuit so anything is possible.

#144 petefenelon

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 16:50

Originally posted by Vitesse2

The rail link seems to be to "near the airport" not "to the airport" in the way that Gatwick or Heathrow have their own stations. Another "Parkway" station, adjacent to J24 of the M1 - so any passengers arriving there would have to get a bus past the airport to get to the circuit: along the already congested A453!


Remember, this is the country where we have an important regional airport that has a station that gets one train a week and is otherwise served by a bus from the nearest major railway station.;)

(the charmingly misnamed Durham Tees Valley, about five miles from Darlington);)

#145 kayemod

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 16:51

Originally posted by Derwent Motorsport
So Gillett has no planning permission and no money. A Donington GP in 2010 no way!


I strongly suspect that if by some billion to one chance a 2010 Donington GP even looked like a faint possibility, the man most shocked and upset by the prospect would be BCE, he clearly doesn't want the British GP to survive beyond next year, and this is just his way of ensuring that all the cards fall into place the way he want them to. "They let me down, much too late to arrange anything else now."

I'd love to be proved wrong of course.

Barry (below) guessed correctly, I've corrected it. Serves me right for trying to type without bothering to find my specs first.

#146 Barry Boor

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 16:54

I guess you meant BCE, but I am sure you are spot on with your opinion.

#147 Phil Rainford

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 16:55

Did anyone pick up on Bernie Ecclestone's comment in his interview on Sunday with ITV where he said that the only way Silverstone could ever stage the British GP again is if they formed an alliance/deal with Donington?

With everyone doubting Donington's ability to both raise the capital and create the required infrastructure in time. Is this what Martin Brundle alluded to when he claimed that we had not seen the last of Silverstone?

Kind regards

Phil

#148 bigears

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 17:09

Anything about the proposed layout?

So far I know that there might be an infield loop.

#149 Bumblyari

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Posted 07 July 2008 - 17:11

With a hundred million quid spent on the four tennis courts at our local park, I'm sure it would be suitable for hosting the All England Championships - that would be one in the eye for those stuffy people up at Wimbledon.

In fact with a few more quid to extend the crazy golf course we could even host the British Open as well, then we wouldn't have to drive all that way 'up north' every year.

This may be the beginning of something big, just think how much cheaper it would be for us all if the Chelsea Flower Show was held in Hull, Royal Ascot in Dudley or Henley Regatta on the Rochdale canal.

Anyone got Bernie's number ?

#150 Barry Boor

Barry Boor
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Posted 07 July 2008 - 17:18

Ahem! That's THE Open, bumb, not the british open. :)





Ooooh, I am picky today! :blush: