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How many new cars won on their debut?`


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#1 rl1856

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 13:30

We all know about the Lotus 49, Mercedes W196, Vanwall, Ford MK-IV, all winning in their debut race.

What are the others ?

Best,

Ross

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#2 alansart

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 13:35

Wolf WR1 - Jody Scheckter, Buenos Aires 1977

#3 Allan Lupton

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 13:39

Vanwall????

#4 alansart

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 13:57

The first GP every year for the last 20 years, I guess the winning car is on it's debut.

#5 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 14:21

Originally posted by alansart
The first GP every year for the last 20 years, I guess the winning car is on it's debut.


not in 2002: (what was officially still a 2001 Ferrari won that)

Henri

#6 alansart

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 14:38

Originally posted by Henri Greuter


not in 2002: (what was officially still a 2001 Ferrari won that)

Henri


Nice one :)

Perhaps pre 1990, or even pre 1980 is more relevant.

#7 Henri Greuter

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 14:57

Originally posted by alansart


Nice one :)

Perhaps pre 1990, or even pre 1980 is more relevant.



Thanks.
Indeed, before 1990 and perhaps even earlier is still relevant.


And/or other categories of racing like Sportscars and Rallycars.

As for the latter: as far as I can remember, Lancia has an interesting statistic on that one,

DeltaS4, Delta HF4wd, Delta Integrale, Delta Integrale 16V, and the last evo version of the Delta, (out on top of my heat that was simply another "Delta Integrale"???? It was nicknamed "Deltona" by some) all of them won their first ever event in World rallying.

henri

#8 fines

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 15:06

Every GP winner before WW1, many early Indy winners, too, and at least three Maserati 250Fs.

#9 MKIVJ6

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 15:56

Ferrari P 3/4

#10 D-Type

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:08

Originally posted by fines
Every GP winner before WW1, many early Indy winners, too, and at least three Maserati 250Fs.

Do you mean in period, in historic racing, or both? ;)

Originally posted by Allan Lupton
Vanwall????

I think Ross is right if talking about the Chapman/Costin version winning the 1956 International Trophy

#11 Jesper O. Hansen

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:28

Reynard used to have quite a reputation in regards of debut wins. FF, F3, CART.

Jesper

#12 fines

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:30

Indy winners:

Frontenac 183 (1920)
Frontenac 183-8C (1921)
Miller 122 (1923)
Duesenberg 122-2V-SC (1924)
Miller 91 (1926)
Miller-Hartz Mk I (1930)
Schneider/Miller Mk II (1931)
Miller-Hartz Mk II (1932)
Petillo/Offenhauser Mk I (1935)
Moore/Offenhauser "Burd PR" (1938)
Maserati 8CTF '3032' (1939)
Moore/Offenhauser "Blue Crown SP" (1947)
Kurtis/Offenhauser 500C '382-55' (1955)
Watson/Offenhauser "IC-56" (1956)
Salih/Offenhauser "IC-57" (1957)
Watson/Offenhauser "IC-60" (1960)
Trevis/Offenhauser "IC-61" (1961)
Watson/Offenhauser "IC-62" (1962)
Lotus/Ford 38 (1965)
Lola/Ford T92 (1966)

after that it gets difficult...

#13 fines

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 16:37

Originally posted by D-Type
Do you mean in period, in historic racing, or both? ;)

In period, of course - I'm not interested in historic "racing" - or should that be "historic" racing?;)

For the record, the three I'm thinking of are Fangio's 1954 Argentine winner, Moss's 1956 Italian GP winner and Fangio's 1957 Argentine winner. They also respresent three different (sub) designs, but that wasn't my point - the way the question is posed, every new chassis of an existing design counts, so I'm sure there's a McLaren M23 or a Lotus 72 in there, too! But damned if I can think of one from memory... old age, oh dear! :(

#14 rl1856

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 17:41

I'll clarify- A new design winning in it's first race. Meaning a new model, not a new version of an existing model.

By the revised definition, the 250F would only count once.

Best,

Ross

#15 kayemod

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 17:57

Originally posted by rl1856
I'll clarify- A new design winning in it's first race. Meaning a new model, not a new version of an existing model.

Ross


So where does that leave the McLaren CanAm cars? The M6A, M8A, M8B, M8D, M8F and M20 all won on their debuts in successive years, a truly remarkable achievement by any standards. Most who worked on them would say that these were six quite separate designs with very little carry-over from the previous year's car, so what's the McLaren score here?

#16 tobbe j

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 18:34

Tyrrell 003

#17 Tim Murray

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 18:44

Ligier JS11 and Ferrari 312T4, both in 1979.

#18 Allan Lupton

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 19:30

Originally posted by D-Type
I think Ross is right if talking about the Chapman/Costin version winning the 1956 International Trophy [/B]

Agreed, but he just said "Vanwall": a statement of which Vanwall would have been better, as was the later sharpening of definitions.

However as has been said, for the majority of the history of Grand Prix racing the winner of an early race of each season, if not always the first, was a car on its debut and particularly inevitable after a change of formula.

#19 Fr@nk

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 21:02

PORSCHE 908/3 - 1970

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#20 Vitesse2

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 22:03

Mercedes Benz W25, W125 and W165.

#21 ERault

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 22:13

Alfa Romeo 33/2, with Autodelta not taking any chances by carefuly selecting the event...

#22 fines

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Posted 22 July 2008 - 22:26

Originally posted by tobbe j
Tyrrell 003

Now what seperated 003 from 001 and 002 that was more of a "new model" than the fuoricentro and Tipo due 250Fs??? :confused:

This is getting ridiculous... :rolleyes:

#23 doc knutsen

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Posted 24 July 2008 - 17:50

Erm....C-type Jaguar.

#24 Bloggsworth

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 09:50

Originally posted by rl1856
I'll clarify- A new design winning in it's first race. Meaning a new model, not a new version of an existing model.

By the revised definition, the 250F would only count once.

Best,

Ross


To any non-pedant, that was understood..............................

#25 Bloggsworth

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 09:51

Aston-Martin F1 in the hands of Roy Salvadori - Can't argue with that one!

#26 Zippel

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 11:29

Originally posted by Henri Greuter


not in 2002: (what was officially still a 2001 Ferrari won that)

Henri


And when the 02 Ferrari did debut in Brazil it still won its first race.

#27 stuartbrs

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 11:46

Anything in a one make series...

Alfasud, Porsche, GP2...

#28 David McKinney

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 18:29

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
Aston-Martin F1 in the hands of Roy Salvadori - Can't argue with that one!

Remind us what race that combination won?

#29 Ian Stewart

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 19:23

Aston Martin DB3S (Reg Parnell) - thanks to the car in front losing a plug lead.

#30 Cargo

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 19:35

Didn't the Lotus 59 F2 car win first time out - with Rindt driving? I've tried googling, but can't really confirm it though.

#31 Bloggsworth

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:46

Originally posted by David McKinney

Remind us what race that combination won?


1959 - DBR/250 - Was it the International Trophy Race?

#32 David McKinney

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:48

That was the car's debut race - but it didn't win

#33 Ray Bell

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:53

I guess the Elfin ME2 wouldn't be considered worth mentioning here?

Niel Allen took an unexpected win first time out at the Farm when Matich expired early, as I recall. In fact, I think all rear engined V8 Elfin Sports Cars won their first events, Matich in the 400 (Traco Olds) and Garrie Cooper surely won first time out in the MS7?

#34 Bloggsworth

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:53

My mistake, I was only a Fourth Former at the time - Mind you, if you already knew I was wrong, why not just say so instead of trying to be clever about it?

#35 Macca

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:56

If you rule out evolutionary cars, then there have been very few first-time winners; if you also rule out existing engines, then even fewer.

The 250F was an evolution of the A6GCM with a bigger engine and De Dion rear suspension, whereas the W196 was completely new; likewise the Lotus 49.

After that, even when engine rules change the first victor of the new formula is usually an evolution of the previous car, so there are very few 'clean sheet' winners over the years.

Paul M

#36 David McKinney

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 20:58

Originally posted by Bloggsworth
if you already knew I was wrong, why not just say so instead of trying to be clever about it?

Because you were trying to be clever by saying "can't argue about that one" - which was patent nonsense

#37 Bloggsworth

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 21:05

I wasn't trying to be clever, I was 14 for Christ's sake, it was 49 years ago, and I remembered incorrectly.

#38 fines

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 21:10

Let's take a bit of heat out of this one...

Maurer/BMW MM82, Reynard/Volkswagen 853, in fact in the junior formulae with production cars, almost every year a new design won, albeit mostly "evolutionary" - not those two, though.

EDIT: sorry, it's late and I'm tired, the MM82 was of course evolutionary :blush:

#39 Jones Foyer

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Posted 25 July 2008 - 23:27

Honda RA300. John Surtees in Monza, 1967.

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#40 Macca

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 12:07

Hmmm.....chassis built on the jig of the 1966 Lola and same engine as the previous Honda, so I'd call it 'evolutionary'.

The 1968 Honda was all-new but never won................

The first heat of the 1962 Bruxelles GP was won by the BRM P578, in its first race, but non-championship; the 1966 Siracusa GP was the first race and win for the Ferrari 312 but again n/c.

Paul M

#41 Jerry Entin

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 15:55

The front-engined Birdcage Maseratis:

Tipo 60 July 12, 1959 Rouen Stirling Moss
Tipo 61 Oct 24, 1959 Dothan E.D. Martin

And yes, the engine of the Tipo 60 was an evolution of the 200SI.
all research Willem Oosthoek.

#42 Phil Rainford

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 16:08

Audi Quattro 1980 Janner Rally in Austria.......

The car had been used as the Course Car on an earlier Rally, which if it actually entered, would have won by nine minutes :eek:

Kind regards

Phil

#43 Roger Clark

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 17:12

One of the most remarkable feats was the McLaren MP4/6. which had a brand new Honda V12 engine and won its first four races in 1991. It's very much easier to knock out a chassis than to design and build an engine.

The following year, the Williams-Renault FW14B won its first five races, but that car was an evolution of the previous year's. In any case, its success was more due to the virtuosity of the driver than to any virtue of the car, as the former frequently said.

#44 fines

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Posted 26 July 2008 - 17:21

Originally posted by Roger Clark
In any case, its success was more due to the virtuosity of the driver than to any virtue of the car, as the former frequently said.

:lol: Well, with the second most virtuos driver finishing in second on each occasion save one, perhaps it didn't matter too much after all...

#45 fines

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Posted 04 August 2008 - 09:08

The Blauvelt/Miller, better known under subsequent owners as the "Haskell Miller", or Ted Horn's first "Baby", was built in 1932 by Fred Blauvelt, and debuted at Ascot Speedway on February 28 as the Blu-Green Special, part of the much publicised team of oil magnate Earl Gilmore.

Wilbur Shaw, fresh from winning his first Ascot feature in another car five weeks earlier, qualified for the "Italian Helmet Dash" for the three fastest cars, the first event on the schedule, and won in the car's first ever start, even if it was over only two laps of a five-eights-of-a-mile circuit, and taking just under a minute from start to finish! He followed that up with second place in the 100-lap feature, and a win in the next 100-lapper a fortnight later.

#46 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 00:29

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I guess the Elfin ME2 wouldn't be considered worth mentioning here?

Niel Allen took an unexpected win first time out at the Farm when Matich expired early, as I recall. In fact, I think all rear engined V8 Elfin Sports Cars won their first events, Matich in the 400 (Traco Olds) and Garrie Cooper surely won first time out in the MS7?

I reckon Garry won first time out in the MR9 too, though it was a shakedown run at a club meeting. The single post rear wing had a fair case of the wobbles at speed. [At AIR]

#47 Leo D

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 06:12

Elfin ME 2 ????..... The Elfin ME 5 would be the unit ???........

Ray you mention Niel Allen beating Frank Matich .... that would have been in the SR4, which was about the only time other than Sandown (where it disappeared in a cloud of smoke going into Peters Corner) that I remember it being beaten. Or is my memory deserting me?....

Didn't Frank Matich also have a pretty good score rate with first up wins in most of his cars? The SR3, SR4 and the F 5000's ??????

#48 Ray Bell

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Posted 05 August 2008 - 07:06

Yes, the ME5... what was I thinking?

Yes, Matich had a bunch of first time wins. Most notable was the A50's win in the AGP at Warwick Farm.

#49 fines

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 21:00

Kojima/BMW KE008, May 22 in 1977, Suzuka, Masahiro Hasemi driving. :)