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Button's time is up, says Mansell


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#1 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 14:43

http://www.autosport...rt.php/id/61440

It seems Mansell is right.

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#2 Gecko

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 14:45

Whether he's right or wrong, he's been that for a year ;)

#3 pingu666

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 14:46

that was from a year ago...

#4 Dooly Tilly

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 14:48

Mansell is/was correct.

Button is a failure who has virtually never outdriven his car. If/when Honda dump him, he'll be most likely be finished. :o

#5 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 14:49

Originally posted by pingu666
that was from a year ago...


I know because I can read, but back then I wasn't sure whether he is right. However seeing him struggle against Rubens, who was a match for Michael only once or twice a year, I realised he was right just now. Got the message? ;)

#6 TickTickBooom

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 14:51

Sigh........

Next.

#7 tkulla

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 14:53

Mansell is/was an idiot. He's just talking out of his ass to make the news. I'd bet that he knows less about the current state of the sport than we do, and probably doesn't even watch the races.

He sure was fun to watch while he was racing though.

#8 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:12

Originally posted by tkulla
Mansell is/was an idiot. He's just talking out of his ass to make the news. I'd bet that he knows less about the current state of the sport than we do, and probably doesn't even watch the races.


I don't think your comments are fair on Our Nige at all.

Mansell was a great world champion and his opinions are valid, just like those of Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda, two champs who are also quite outspoken.

Mansell has two sons who are trying to climb the ladder to F1. Sure, they're not all that successful, but Mansell would surely keep a pretty keen eye on the world racing scene, including F1.

As we know, Mansell took 12 years to get his world championship.

When Mansell was in his eighth season, he was saddled with a Williams-Judd, which was more often than not blown away by the turbos. But Mansell never gave up, and was always among the most determined drivers on the grid. Remember his great drive to second at Silverstone in 1988 in a car which had its active suspension removed the night before?

Button is now in his eighth season also. Do you see that kind of determination and grit on display? I don't. I see it in Barrichello, but not in Button. Jenson appears to be a driver who is biding his time, clocking in and clocking out until he gets a better car. Whether he will from Ross Brawn is another matter.

Mark Hughes wrote about how Button appeared to be demotivated the other week.

Mansell never let this happen. He was always a fighter, and got there in the end.

And for that reason, his comments on Button were as valid as hell IMO.

They were a year ago, but if anything Button is more average now than then.

#9 Josta

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:20

Mansell has two sons who are trying to climb the ladder to F1.



:rotfl:

I have more chance of bagging an F1 drive than greg and leo. They were hopeless in FBMW, hopeless in F3 and now they are hopeless in atlantics. Having a famous name will get you so far, but when you clearly don't have any talent, you won't make it.

God only knows why at least some of Nigels talent didn't rub off on them. Maybe they should both grow a tache. :)

#10 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:22

Originally posted by Josta


:rotfl:

I have more chance of bagging an F1 drive than greg and leo.


...You only partially quoted me! :lol:

The very next sentence was: "Sure, they're not all that successful..."

#11 mikedeering

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:30

Originally posted by potmotr

Mansell never let this happen. He was always a fighter, and got there in the end.


I guess you didn't watch the 1990 season then ;)

#12 PNSD

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:40

Originally posted by Dooly Tilly
Mansell is/was correct.

Button is a failure who has virtually never outdriven his car.


Wow, I never knew people had access to teams telemetry. Though I guess it does make you wonder why Honda and BAR have stuck with Button knowing this when they clearly could have had someone better.

.... Oh wait a second.


However seeing him struggle against Rubens, who was a match for Michael only once or twice a year, I realised he was right just now. Got the message?



Struggle. Im sorry but in what possible way is Button struggling against Rubens. He is beating him in qualifying 7-4 I think, and at Hungary he lapped him.

Button is always either matched with Rubens nose to tail OR ( and this is the most part throughout 2006 and 2007 ) way ahead of him.

2008 is too difficult to judge given Buttons mistakes but he has not once been slower than Rubens the way Rubens is slower than Jenson ;-)!

#13 tkulla

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:40

Originally posted by potmotr


I don't think your comments are fair on Our Nige at all.

Mansell was a great world champion and his opinions are valid, just like those of Jackie Stewart and Niki Lauda, two champs who are also quite outspoken.

Mansell has two sons who are trying to climb the ladder to F1. Sure, they're not all that successful, but Mansell would surely keep a pretty keen eye on the world racing scene, including F1.

As we know, Mansell took 12 years to get his world championship.

When Mansell was in his eighth season, he was saddled with a Williams-Judd, which was more often than not blown away by the turbos. But Mansell never gave up, and was always among the most determined drivers on the grid. Remember his great drive to second at Silverstone in 1988 in a car which had its active suspension removed the night before?

Button is now in his eighth season also. Do you see that kind of determination and grit on display? I don't. I see it in Barrichello, but not in Button. Jenson appears to be a driver who is biding his time, clocking in and clocking out until he gets a better car. Whether he will from Ross Brawn is another matter.

Mark Hughes wrote about how Button appeared to be demotivated the other week.

Mansell never let this happen. He was always a fighter, and got there in the end.

And for that reason, his comments on Button were as valid as hell IMO.

They were a year ago, but if anything Button is more average now than then.



Mansell had his weaknesses. Fitness in particular. Button is a supremely fit professional race car driver. Mansell couldn't be bothered by such things.

#14 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:41

Originally posted by mikedeering


I guess you didn't watch the 1990 season then ;)


Oh come on, if never giving up is the theme, 1990 was classic Mansell IMO. :clap:

Talk about coming back from adversity. Sure some of it was self inflicted, but he never threw in the towel...

How about:

Mexico 1990? Around the outside of Berger around the outside of the Pereltada?
San Marino 1990? Trying to go around Berger on the run down to Tosa, keeping the foot flat with four wheels
on the grass, executing a 360 degree spin at high speed then resuming the chase?
Portugal 1990? Winning from pole position?
Japan 1990? Leaving two hundred metres of black tyre tracks after his pitstop (while leading) and snapping his driveshaft in the process.
Australia 1990? Spinning early on then driving back through the field, lunging at Piquet at the very last opportunity on the very last lap?

Mansell may been a bit of a boozo on occassion, but for me he was pure fever!

#15 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:43

Originally posted by tkulla



Mansell had his weaknesses. Fitness in particular. Button is a supremely fit professional race car driver. Mansell couldn't be bothered by such things.


Again, I don't agree. Mansell was regarded as an extremely strong driver who bullied the car around. This brute strength has been cited as a key difference between him and Ricardo Patrese during the 1992 season.

I don't doubt Button is fit, but what use is that if he hasn't got any passion.

IMO Button is drifting at the moment, and needs to put a bit of tiger in his performances.

#16 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:46

Originally posted by TickTickBooom
Sigh........

Next.


What's the value of such a comment TickTickBooom? :confused:

#17 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:48

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


What's the value of such a comment TickTickBooom? :confused:


Agreed. :up: Nothing more tedious than going into a thread which is enjoying healthy and light hearted debate and calling it boring. If it's not of interest, don't post...

#18 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:50

Originally posted by mikedeering


I guess you didn't watch the 1990 season then ;)


He still was a fighter then. Remember Estoril 1990? His move against his team mate? True fighting spirit.

#19 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 15:53

Originally posted by PNSD
Struggle. Im sorry but in what possible way is Button struggling against Rubens. He is beating him in qualifying 7-4 I think, and at Hungary he lapped him.


Qualifying:

Button : Barrichello 6 : 5

Points:

Button : Barrichello 3 : 11

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#20 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:04

Originally posted by PNSD
Im sorry but in what possible way is Button struggling against Rubens.


Barrichello and Button are almost level in qualifying and Rubens is ahead on points.

Button would have us believe he is a man of the future, but in Barrichello he is being eclipsed by a veteran driver in the twilight of his career.

Also, Button always had a reputation as a man who could do amazing things in the rain. Yet on the best chance of the year to deliver that result, Silverstone, he spun off while Barrichello delivered. And at Monaco he was also nowhere, while Sutil, in a poorer car, stole the show by running well above his station before being taken out.

No one doubts Button's speed and ability. But at the moment he appears to be demotivated.

I think Mark Hughes' piece on Button from Autosport the other week summed it up.

#21 d246

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:07

Mansell is the perfect example of a bloke who has been hired to drive cars quickly and not as a media personality. To watch in the car, he was great - you always felt he could do something pretty special. Out of the car he was an arse. The answer to any question, on any subject, cenetered around himself. Even commenting on the death of Senna.

He was never the sharpest tool in the box and his opinions do not carry too much weight.

His sons' racing results must be an embarrassment to him.

Still, during the race at the weekend I did think of his drive ot victory in the Ferrari, in Hungary, from 12th on the grid.

#22 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:08

Originally posted by potmotr
I think Mark Hughes' piece on Button from Autosport the other week summed it up.


Is there a link?

#23 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:13

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


Is there a link?


Yep, here you go...

http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/1635

#24 Atreiu

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:16

I never understood why Williams kept Mansell instead of Rosberg.
Does anyone know how things happened back then?

#25 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:19

Originally posted by Atreiu
I never understood why Williams kept Mansell instead of Rosberg.
Does anyone know how things happened back then?


There's a good explanation in Simon Taylor's 'At Lunch With..' interview with Keke in last month's Motorsport. I honestly can't remember exactly what he said about his decision to go to McLaren, but it's all in there. I think it was Keke's choice though. What I do remember is that his mate Elio de Angelis had warned that Mansell would be a difficult team mate out of the car, but Rosberg said he'd had no problem with him at all.

#26 Juan Kerr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:20

Originally posted by Atreiu
I never understood why Williams kept Mansell instead of Rosberg.
Does anyone know how things happened back then?

Because Keke wanted to go to McLaren, Frank would not have replaced Rosberg with anyone.

#27 Smudger

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:25

It is hard to see where Button's Championship is going to come from, and just slagging Mansell off doesn't change that. I think Mark Hughes has got it pretty well correct, that Button needs to be on it however well the car is working, and he needs to use his experience in preparation and setup.

#28 pgj

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:46

I am not so sure about JB being finished. He made a couple of really poor decisions to leave and then stay with Honda, but if he is given a good car he can still turn in a competitive performance. I do not know if he would have the stomach for the kind of scrap that he would have if Nando lands at Honda though.

#29 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:54

I think Button has let an amazing opportunity at Honda/BAR slip away.
After 2004's strong season it was his team and he was the undisputed leader.
But he's allowed Barrichello and his own flagging motivation to erode that perception.
In the past the team had said they believed they had one of the best drivers on the market.
It's clear they no longer think that if they're chasing Alonso.

#30 Leons

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:57

i think Jenson is a very fast driver, however faithful too. And I think this is the problem, because the Honda is not so good for him.

#31 Ghostrider

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 16:58

Button was hammered by his first three teammates, i.e not a top driver.

#32 PNSD

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 17:03

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


Qualifying:

Button : Barrichello 6 : 5

Points:

Button : Barrichello 3 : 11


Why bother showing the points ?
Its no lie Button has made many many errors this season, more than usual and thats why he hasnt scored when they've had the chance ie silverstone.

potmotr - About silverstone, Button wasn't slow in the wet, his lap times were competitive and when he got onto extremes his outlap was 5seconds quicker than Rubens in the first two sectors. Though he did come off, his retirement was caused because he had to get out of the way of another car.

Had he not made such a hash of it. he was easily Ruben's equal on pace and alot more that day. Again like Ive said before I dont deny he hasnt made mistakes becuase he has. Monaco was another example he was doing great till he rammed Nick. At that point he lost any chance of points. There is no evidence to suggest he has lost any speed because plain and simple he hasnt. Though this year for him has been riddled with mistakes caused by himself which have made thigns look alot worse than they really are.

Another point we should think about is Buttons strength has never been qualifying, and in fact has often been one of Ruben's best attributes. So to compare the two in that respect is difficult. Last year werent the two equal by the end of the season?? Yet who was the one with the pace? Barachello started this year alot better, but since Button hsa more than often been the quicker, just his mistakes have shadowed that fact. Look at the result when he gets a car he likes... Hungary. He dominated Rubens just like he used to. Had he not messed his start the race would have been more noticable. Though once again though partly not his fault he did mess up his start.

His mistakes and only his mistakes have cost him some very very good results this season, which you have to say is very un Button like who tends to be very careful in his driving.

#33 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 17:05

Originally posted by potmotr


Yep, here you go...

http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/1635


Oh no. This is only for people with subscription. Thanks anyway.

#34 George Costanza

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 17:11

Why is Mansell saying that? Didn't he win the title at age of 39 in that all mighty Williams FW14B of 1992?


If, now a huge if, Honda makes a super F1 car, Button can still win that championship.

Granted, Mansell was a million times better than Button... But, you cannot deny that the car has been a major player here....

#35 pgj

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 17:14

Originally posted by potmotr


There's a good explanation in Simon Taylor's 'At Lunch With..' interview with Keke in last month's Motorsport. I honestly can't remember exactly what he said about his decision to go to McLaren, but it's all in there. I think it was Keke's choice though. What I do remember is that his mate Elio de Angelis had warned that Mansell would be a difficult team mate out of the car, but Rosberg said he'd had no problem with him at all.


I am quite sure that Williams could not or would not match the salary that Ron offered.

#36 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 17:28

Originally posted by George Costanza
Granted, Mansell was a million times better than Button... But, you cannot deny that the car has been a major player here....


Actually the car is always a major player. :smoking:

#37 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 17:41

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


Oh no. This is only for people with subscription. Thanks anyway.


I've PM'd the piece to you. Enjoy!

#38 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 17:46

Originally posted by potmotr


I've PM'd the piece to you. Enjoy!


Thank you mate. :clap:

#39 Atreiu

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 18:19

Originally posted by Juan Kerr

Because Keke wanted to go to McLaren, Frank would not have replaced Rosberg with anyone.


Okay.

Perhaps Rosberg didn't have that much faith in Honda. Who knows? But Mansell should thank him anyhow.

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#40 giacomo

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 18:52

Originally posted by Atreiu
I never understood why Williams kept Mansell instead of Rosberg.
Does anyone know how things happened back then?

Well, Rosberg prefered to go to McLaren. He never developed a good relation with Frank Williams.

#41 Tenmantaylor

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 19:28

I agree with the Tash

#42 potmotr

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 23:16

Mansell was the business in my opinion and Button will never get near him for pure theatre or public affection.
I was only able to see Mansell race once (Adelaide 1992) and it was awesome. Active Williams FW14D, V10 Renault, pure fever. And I was watching when Senna smashed him off the road. The early 90s will never be bettered, and IMO Mansell is a big reason for that...

#43 senna da silva

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Posted 06 August 2008 - 23:55

Mansell was/is/and always will be a COCK. He should of had a block of cheese with him at all times since there was so much whine everytime he opened his fat gob! One of the worst drivers to ever sit in a Lotus.

#44 stevewf1

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 00:29

From what I heard on SPEED TV's Hungarian GP coverage, "someone" very likely will go from Honda's driver line-up soon... Who's it gonna be????

IMO, I think BOTH Honda drivers should be replaced and the team should start anew with a couple of young, "hungry" drivers...

#45 primer

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 00:43

Button never was worth an F1 seat, hyped beyond belief in his initial years by a press that was desperate for a new English hero. Now that Lewis is on the scene JB is about as useful as a ......

Lewis is the real deal. Button will try and position himself as a Coulthard to stay in F1 as long as he can. In fact, he has already started what with 'funny' press conference antics and such. However if Honda is still slow next year they might consider dropping him because any third tier driver or rookie would do a similar job when the car's not competetive.

#46 HoldenRT

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 00:54

Jenson's car is a shitbox. It wouldn't matter if Lewis (probably Mansell's #1 driver) or Massa or Kimi or whoever drove it. If your car is a shitbox, your doomed to fail no matter what you do. Ask Alonso.

Lewis is the real deal.

After his Hockenheim drive I wouldn't disagree with you but he will never drive a car other then a McLaren and will never have an oppurtunity to drive a shitbox like Jenson so comparisons are moot imo. Worst case scenario for Lewis is a year that Kimi had in 06. Not many podiums, no wins and lots of 5ths and 6's. While not the best, not really the type of car that will destroy your reputation, like the Honda car has with Jenson in the last 2 seasons. If the Honda was in BMW's position, Jenson would likely be in a similar position to Kubica and everyone would be talking him up.

#47 KERS

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 01:11

Originally posted by potmotr


Yep, here you go...

http://www.autosport...cle.php/id/1635


That article is amusing. I dont know how long hughes has watched F1 but Button has never shown the type of ability he talks about so Im not sure what hes really on about. Probably just trying to sell some papers.
Button was easily beaten by ralf, dominated by Fisichella and Trulli and looks no better than an old rubens, yet we are supposed to believe he has the ability to challenge Alonso? Wouldnt even be close.

#48 TickTickBooom

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:16

Check your stats again my friend, Jenson was not 'easily beaten' by Ralf in 2000. In 2001/02 the car was a shitbox, much the same as the car he's been driving for the past two years. Are we seeing a pattern emerging here? :rolleyes:

#49 TickTickBooom

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:19

Originally posted by primer
Button never was worth an F1 seat, hyped beyond belief in his initial years by a press that was desperate for a new English hero. Now that Lewis is on the scene JB is about as useful as a ......

Lewis is the real deal. Button will try and position himself as a Coulthard to stay in F1 as long as he can. In fact, he has already started what with 'funny' press conference antics and such. However if Honda is still slow next year they might consider dropping him because any third tier driver or rookie would do a similar job when the car's not competetive.

Just QFT. That's your opinion NOT a fact.

Honda will not drop Jenson at any point before he wants to retire. I'd bet my car on it.

#50 KERS

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Posted 07 August 2008 - 04:37

Originally posted by TickTickBooom
Check your stats again my friend, Jenson was not 'easily beaten' by Ralf in 2000. In 2001/02 the car was a shitbox, much the same as the car he's been driving for the past two years. Are we seeing a pattern emerging here? :rolleyes:


24-12 points.
12-5 or something qualifying.

Looks like he was.