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Caracciola at Zbraslav Jiloviste


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#1 Simon Davis

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Posted 08 August 2008 - 21:14

I have come across a photo of Rudi Caracciola supposedly at the 1930 Zbraslav Jiloviste hillclimb. The source is 'Mercedes Kompressorwagen' by Halwart Schrader & Carlo Demand, 1979 - page 36. His Mercedes SSK is stripped of mudguards and headlights and carries race number 72.

I have seen other pictures from the 1930 event and Caracciola’s Mercedes SSK features mudguards, inward facing headlights and race number 144. (‘Silberpfeile’ published by Heel, page 27 & ‘M-B Quicksilver Century’ by Ludvigsen, page 125). In this configuration he was competing in the sports car class.

I suspect the Schrader/Demand photo is from 1929 when Caracciola competed in the racing class. In which case it looks like the caption misquoted the year. I am hoping that the caption is correct as regards Zbraslav Jiloviste.

Can anyone verify this?

PS - I would attach a copy of the photo in question if I knew how!!! :confused:

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#2 raceannouncer2003

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 00:15

Found this. See item 12190, which would seem to confirm that #72 was in 1929:

http://www.cohascodp...oductory_4.html

I also have "A Racing Car Driver's World" by Caracciola, which has statistical info on both events (though no photos or car numbers).

Vince H.

#3 Simon Davis

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 09:49

Thank you Vince. Very helpful. I like the fact that it is often obscure sources which can verify the details of motor racing history. I too have a copy of Caracciola's autobiography. My frustration with the book is the inaccuracies contained within the results section.

Simon.

#4 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:14

In 1930, Caracciola competed in the sports car class up to 8000cc:

1. Rudolf Caracciola - Mercedes-Benz Type SS - 2.57,2 (new class record)
2. Otto Spandel - Mercedes-Benz - 3.20,5

"Motor und Sport" has a close-up photo of Caracciola, but his start number is not visible.

#5 Simon Davis

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:31

Thanks Rob.

'A Racing Driver's World' suggests that Caracciola competed in an SSK and recorded a time of 2.52.7. Is this another example of the inaccuracies contained within the Caraccola autobiography race statistics?

#6 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 10:55

"Motor und Sport" explicitly states Caracciola drove a Type-SS in 1930. Furthermore, the time looks a lot like a mistake: 2.57,2 vs 2.52,7.


The results for 1930 also indicate that Caracciola was the current record holder in the racing car class up to 8000cc, with a time of 2.49,2 - presumably set the year before.

Graf Arco-Zinneberg won this class in 1930 with a time of 2.56,6 with a Mercedes-Benz, carrying start number 159 as shown by a photograph.


Let's face it: if Caracciola had participated in the racing car class with a Type-SSK, he would probably have won, or at the very least it would have been mentioned in the article.

#7 ReWind

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 11:35

Erwin Tragatsch, „Die großen Rennjahre“ (1973), p. 99, about 1929:

Hauptattraktion war der Zweikampf zwischen „Bergmeister“ Hans Stuck auf dem 3614-ccm-Austro-Daimler und Rudolf Caracciola mit dem 7020-ccm-SSK von Mercedes, und es war Stuck, der mit 2’45,8“ gegen Caracciola (2’49,2“) gewann.

Martin Pfundner, „Vom Semmering zum Grand Prix“ (2003), p. 171, about 1930:

Die Saison begann mit dem Prager Bergrennen Königsaal-Jilowischt ( Zbraslav-Jílovištĕ ), wo Hans Stuck auf dem Austro-Daimler-Rennwagen mit Vierlitermotor seinen eigenen Vorjahrsrekord um eine Zehntelsekunde auf 2’45,7“ verbesserte. Zweiter wurde Henryk Liefeldt (Austro-Daimler, 2’49,8“) vor dem Sportwagensieger Rudi Caracciola (Mercedes SSK, 2’52,7“) und dem Ungarn László Hartmann (2,3-Liter-Bugatti-Rennwagen, ex-Zichy, 2’55,5“).

Tragatsch, p. 118, about 1930:

Die 8000-ccm-Rennwagen-Klasse […] gewann Max Graf Arco-Zinneberg mit seinem Mercedes SSK in 2’55,6“, erzielte aber nicht die 1929 von Rudolf Caracciola auf einem SSK gefahrene Zeit von 2’49,2“. In der 3000-ccm-Rennwagen-Klasse gab es den Überraschungssieg des Ungarn Lászlo Hartmann, der mit dem Bugatti 35B 2’55,5“ fuhr und damit H.J. von Morgen auf einem gleichen Wagen, der „nur“ 2’56,5“ erzielte, schlug. […] Rudolf Caracciola fuhr 1930 den Mercedes SSK in der Sportwagenklasse, schaffte die Strecke in 2’52,7“ und war natürlich hier der schnellste Fahrer, dem der Zweite, Otto Spandel mit einem Mercedes SS, nicht gefährlich werden konnte.



#8 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 12:04

Thank you, Reinhard. Unfortunately I unnecessarily caused confusion: "Motor und Sport" has Caracciola's time as 2.52,7 as well. Sorry for that misleading typo!

Perhaps Hans Etzroth has some further sources that can settle what type of car Caracciola drove?

#9 Simon Davis

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 19:04

As far as I can see Caracciola was campaigning an SSK throughout 1930. The exceptions were the Monte Carlo Rally (Mercedes 'Nürburg') and Le Mans 24 Hours (Mercedes SS). Furthermore the photo of him at the start of the climb with car number 144, clearly reveals his mount to be an SSK.

Thanks for clearing up the recorded time and putting it into perspective with Stuck etc.

#10 Doug Nye

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 20:23

Out of curiosity I have just looked up Zbraslav and Jiloviste in the Czech Republic on the wonderful GoogleEarth. I must say the road which links the two looks as dull as ditchwater...until you check the relative elevations on the roadway. But the prize for the most disappointing hill-climb I have yet encountered surely goes to Gaillon in France, about which I had read so much. The first time I went there I was crushed to find it was dead straight - just remarkably steep.

DCN

#11 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 20:46

It might be worthwhile to mention that the author of the "Motor und Sport" article, Ernst Rosemann, starts his piece by saying how he arrived in Prague by train, so his article was a first-hand report. But in the absence of another contemporary source, Caracciola's car remains unconfirmed.

The course measured 5.6 km and climbed 3.5% on average, with the steepest bit of 9.5% just before the finish. There was a tricky corner in the town of Bano halfway the climb.

Incidentally, promising German motorcycle rider Karl Stegmann was killed during practice for the 1930 event. He held the motorcycle record at the Zbraslav-Jiloviste hilllimb.

Simon, or anyone else, if you are interested in the article, I'd be more than happy to send it to you.

#12 Simon Davis

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 21:27

OK, now I've started I have to finish. I have now analysed all four of Caracciola's appearances at Z-J - 1924, 1929, 1930 & 1931 (unless someone can tell me of any other years in which Caratsch competed). Incidentally, the 1924 event marked Caracciola's debut outside Germany as far as I can tell.

1924 - 20th April
Mercedes 1500cc S
Touring Car 1750cc Class
3m 50s - 2nd in class to Adolf Rosenberger (3m 48s)

Questions:-
What was Rudi's race number?
What was his speed? (A Racing Driver's World quotes 52.51mph but for a time of 3m 57.6s - which is incorrect according to the German AAZ magazine report).


1929 - 28th April
Mercedes SSK - race number 72
Racing Car Class
2m 49.2s = 74.01mph - 1st in class

Questions:-
Was Rudi's time second overall to Hans Stuck (2m 45.8s)?
Which engine capacity class within the Racing Car Class was Rudi competing in? Eg, 8 litres?
A Racing Driver's World suggests that Rudi set a record - presumably this was within his particular engine capacity class?

1930 - 11th May
Mercedes SSK - race number 144
Sports Car Class
2m 52.7s = 72.51mph - 1st in class (fastest sports car)

Questions:-
Which engine capacity class within the Sports Car Class was Rudi competing in? Eg, 8 litres?
A Racing Driver's World suggests that Rudi set a record - presumably this was within his particular engine capacity class?

1931 - 31st May
Mercedes-Benz SSKL - race number 149
Sports Car 8 Litres Class (according to A Racing Driver's World)
2m 42.7s = 76.98mph - FTD overall, new track record in perpetuity (course length was shortened later on according to G N Georgano Encyclopedia of Motor Sport)

Questions:-
Can anyone confirm the engine capacity class that applied to Rudi?
Has anyone got a map of the original 5.6km course and can they post it on the forum? :up:

#13 Simon Davis

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Posted 09 August 2008 - 21:29

Sorry Rob, I should have responded to your kind offer. Yes please :D Are you able to email it?

#14 Rob Semmeling

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 08:06

Yes Simon, no problem. Drop me a PM with your e-mail address and I'll send it over.

GEL has a map of the course:

Posted Image

From: http://www.silhouet....s/centrahc.html

#15 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 11:13

April 20, 1924 - Zbraslav-Jiloviste
3m13.4s - Otto Salzer (Mercedes 2.0 1923 Indy) racecar class, FTD
3m49.0s - Rosenberger (Mercedes 1500 cc S) - racecar class up to 1.5 liter, 1st in class
3m57.6s - Caracciola (Mercedes 1500 cc S) - touring car class up to 1.75 liter, 1st in class, new record, no start # found
AAZ(D) times are incorrect, MOTOR times are more accurate.

April 28, 1929 - Zbraslav-Jiloviste
2m45.8s - Stuck (Austro-Daimler ADM-R 3.0 R) racecar class, FTD
2m57.5s - Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz SSK) white body/chasis stripped down, start #72
Racecar class up to 8000 cc, 1st in class

MAY 11, 1930 - Zbraslav-Jiloviste
2m45.7s - Stuck (Austro-Daimler ADM-R 3.6 R) – racecar class, FTD
2m52.7s - Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz SSK) white body/chasis, red fenders - sports car class, start #144
Sports car class up to 8000 cc, 1st in class, fastest sports car

May 31, 1931 - Zbraslav-Jiloviste
2m42.84s - Stuck (Mercedes-Benz SSKL) racecar class up to 8000 cc
2m43.86s - von Morgen (Bugatti T35B)
2m42.73s - Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz SSKL) white body/chassis, red fenders - sports car class, start #149
Sports car class up to 8000 cc, 1st in class, fastest sports car, FTD

#16 Simon Davis

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 11:43

Thank you, Hans.

#17 Simon Davis

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 12:48

Hans,

I have studied your data and wish to raise the following:-

1924
So was AAZ (D) incorrect in its report from 26th April 1924 (Nr 17)? As well as showing Rosenberger winning the 1.5 litre racing class (3m 49s) it also shows him winning the 1.75 litre Touring class (3m 48s). Does the MOTOR report clarify this point?

1929
2m 57.5s??? What is the source of this time? It contradicts the MotorUndSport 1930 report that Rob kindly sent me (it states that the 1929 8 litre racing car record of Caracciola was 2m 49.2s. A Racing Driver's World also states 2m 49.2s.

#18 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 20:30

Originally posted by Simon Davis
...1924
So was AAZ (D) incorrect in its report from 26th April 1924 (Nr 17)? As well as showing Rosenberger winning the 1.5 litre racing class (3m 49s) it also shows him winning the 1.75 litre Touring class (3m 48s). Does the MOTOR report clarify this point?...

AAZ(D) #17 p34 – April 26, 1924
Up to 1.75-liter touring cars:
1. - Rosenberger (Mercedes) 3m48s
2. – Caracciola (Mercedes) 3m50s

Up to 1.5-liter Racecars:
1. – Rosenberger (Mercedes) 3m49s


MOTOR – May 1924, #5 p128
Up to 1.75-liter touring cars:
1. - Caracciola (Mercedes) 3m57.6s
2. – Loge (Aga) 4m09.9s
3. – Lhatta (Walter) 4m12.7s

Up to 1.5-liter Racecars:
1. – Rosenberger (Mercedes) 3m49s


AAZ(A) #9 p31 – May 1, 1924
Up to 1.75-liter touring cars:
1. - Caracciola (Mercedes) 3m57.6s
2. – Loge (Aga) 4m09.9s
3. – Lhota (Walter) 4m12.7s

Up to 1.5-liter Racecars:
1. – Rosenberger (Mercedes) 3m49s
2. – Havel (Fiat) 4m11.4s
3. – Kern (Wolseley) 5m04.3s


AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #20 p38 – May 9, 1924
Up to 1.75-liter touring cars:
1. - Caracciola (Mercedes) 3m57.6s
2. – Loge (Aga) 4m09s

Up to 1.5-liter Racecars:
1. – Rosenberger (Mercedes) 3m49.5s
2. – Havel (Fiat) 4m11.4s

#19 Simon Davis

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 21:51

Thanks Hans. The weight of the evidence is overwhelming.

Any thoughts on 1929?

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#20 Hans Etzrodt

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Posted 10 August 2008 - 23:17

Originally posted by Simon Davis
...1929
2m 57.5s??? What is the source of this time? It contradicts the MotorUndSport 1930 report that Rob kindly sent me (it states that the 1929 8 litre racing car record of Caracciola was 2m 49.2s. A Racing Driver's World also states 2m 49.2s.

2m 57.5s??? appears to be a mistake. :blush:


AAZ(D) #18 p28 – May 4, 1929
1. – Stuck
2. – Caracciola (Mercedes) 2m51s

MOTOR #5 p32 – May 1929
1. – Stuck (Austro Daimler) 2m45.8
2. – Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz) 2m49.2s

AAZ(A) #10 p19 – May 4, 1929
1. – Stuck (Austro Daimler) 2m45.8
2. – Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz) 2m49.2s

AUTOMOBIL-REVUE #39 p2 – May 1, 1929
1. – Stuck (Austro Daimler) 2m45.8
2. – Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz) 2m57.5s

AZ-Motorwelt #12 p6 – May 4, 1929
1. – Stuck (Austro Daimler) 2m45.8 – racecars up to 5000 cc
2. – Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz) 2m49.2s – racecars up to 8000 cc

#21 Simon Davis

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 10:50

Thanks for clearing that one up, Hans. Your response shows me how dangerous it is to rely on one original source. 2m 49.2 and 2m 57.5 is quite a difference.

Thanks too to everyone else who has contributed to this thread.

#22 anjakub

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Posted 11 August 2008 - 12:30

Results from Prager Tagblatt:

No 96 s.6 (23.04.1924) :
Touring car bis 1.75 liter
1 - Caracciola (Mercedes) 3m57,6s
Racing car bis 1.5 liter
1 - Rosenberger (Mercedes) 3m49s

No 102 s.9 (30.04.1929) :
Racing car bis 8000 ccm
1 - Caracciola (Mercedes-Benz) 2m49,2s