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Old Formula Vees - Group V in Australia


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#1 chequer57

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 10:26

Hi,

As Group V (Historic Formula Vee) is a relatively new Historic Category on the block we at this stage are searching for any old Formula Vee's that would make good restoration projects for potential/current Historic competitors to work on and get back to the track.

If you have or know of any Formula Vee race car's pre 85 that aren't doing too much could you please contact me. Even if they are not for sale we are attempting to establish a register of where they and we maybe able to help establish some history.

There are probably about 300+ cars out there and they all didn't got to the metal recyclers in the sky. Ask you friends when you're at their place swapping stories what's that frame in that makes up half the chook shed, that chassis in the loft or at the back of the garage it could be have been Formula Vee.

Anyway my contact details are a follows


Ian Lee
webmaster@fvee.org.au

PS: I'm no longer Secretary of the club.


PS: Yes I am putting similar messages on most relevant forum pages.

Edited by chequer57, 13 July 2011 - 02:03.


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#2 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 11:05

This might be a good opportunity to ask...

How badly rusted is the chassis of Alan Goldsmith's GAS Vee?

#3 chequer57

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 11:27

ah the Amaroo Lake car, I suspect that was fished out and continued racing in some form, and I don't know who owns it, willing to know though.

#4 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 11:41

You're quick... and yes, I'm sure Alan had it going by the next meeting...

How many cars have you located so far?

#5 chequer57

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 12:17

Well on the most recent crusade one Mako in Armidale that I'm still waiting for the guy who posted it on aussieveedubber forum to get back to me.

In the last six months

We found a pre 85 Daveric (an NG Elfin copy) that was stripped of VW components to build up a Jacer in the late 90's and there's a Elfin 500 that Matt Woodland owns in SA that one of the members is on to.

From hunting down a few drivers that went MIA with their cars in the last 15 years, I found Wal Shepherd, Frank Trainor and they still have the pre 85 Avanti's neither is willing to sell or come back, funny thing is Frank lives in Queensland and the car's in Victoria.

Managed to get in contact with Chris McKie, Scott Hennman & Geoff Humble who all have pre 85 Spectre's of those three Geoff is most like to join Group V, Chris has finished rebuilding the car that Tom Ballard bent to current 1200cc spec (I think) and Scott Hennman doesn't want to sell or come out and play at the moment.

Simon Pace still has the 84 Mako he rolled at Wakefield Park, he is waiting to make a deal with Frank K regarding that one and the delivery of his new Mako 1600cc car.

We found three Malmark Elfin's Alan Cureton, Matthew Bryson and another that is now in a motorsport musuem (worse luck).

We also found Tim Binns and he still has his 1977 Trowbridge.

We're getting there but it's a case of cars needing to be prepped for C of D.

Should be another year or two and we should have some decent numbers at Historic Meetings.

BTW the JH Toowoomba collection has 1 pre 85 Elfin NG, 1 Elfin 500, 1 Malmark, 2 GAS Vees and 1 Formcar

Hope to find some more soon,

Ian

#6 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 12:42

You're doing well...

John is too, apparently!

#7 chequer57

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 12:55

Well the JH cars are as good as lost I suppose.............

#8 Ray Bell

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Posted 14 August 2008 - 19:14

He must have one interesting shed...

How many Birranas?

#9 brucemoxon

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 03:07

Never mind telling you blokes about it; I'm looking for one for myself.

'Specially for the price Paul English paid for Dad's car!

Does that make me and Paul related somehow?

There must be a lot of cars in sheds.

Bronte Rundle still has his old Elfin.

Who's 'JH' and why are the cars 'lost to us'?


Bruce Moxon

#10 chequer57

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 03:22

Hi Bruce,

I've spoken to Bronte, he's keen to bring his car out as an Historic (so I didn't count that as a discovery), I have most Eflin's covered I'm missing about 1 or 2 NG's from the Elfin Register.

I have FVANSW Secretary Glenn Moulds on the Rennmax case, I know about all the Avanti's, missing two Concepts (one is supposed to be in Victoria). The Makos, Specrtres, Nimbuses?, Stags are a lot harder to track down.

I have a huge spreadsheet going to try and sort it out but it's a lot of phone calls and CAMS isn't much help post computerisation and now they issue Log Book ID numbers instead of continuing logbook numbers.

Anyway the goal is more cars on the track in the future, this is ground work.

Regards,

Ian

#11 cosworth bdg

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 03:27

Originally posted by Ray Bell
He must have one interesting shed...

How many Birranas?

JH, not bad for a dairy farmer who knows absolutely nothing about racing and racing cars_____a dreamer of the first order :down: :down:

#12 chequer57

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 04:11

As much as JH bashing may get the frustrations out and acheives nothing, I must insist we get back to topic....

Anyone know of any Formula Vee projects that aren't in the mainstream? or potential Formula Vee
restorations. For inspiration the following.


This is the Mako that we found recently.
Posted Image

This is the Concept that is missing in Victoria since 2003.
Posted Image

This is the Avanti that was rescued from the scrap metal recyclers and now being restored.
Posted Image

This is the car I saw at the Bathurst Hill climb run by Peter Thomas in 1996 and never saw again
Posted Image

I'm sure there are plenty more out there.

Regards,

Ian

#13 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 04:22

As long as they're not all Elfins and Elfin lookalikes...

What about a Mk 2 Rennmax or two?

#14 cosworth bdg

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 04:35

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chequer57
[B]As much as JH bashing may be get the frustrations out and acheive nothing, I must insist we get back to topic.... By the way this is NOT a JH bashing exercise, but if you want it to be, then so be it ......................................

#15 brucemoxon

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 06:12

Looks like the Mako is sitting on Jack Porter's chassis jig.




BM

#16 Ray Bell

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 06:30

Originally posted by brucemoxon
Looks like the Mako is sitting on Jack Porter's chassis jig.


Very droll...

By the way, are there enough Brazilian distributors around to cater for all of this?

#17 chequer57

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 06:36

Unmolested 1200cc rocker gear, cranks and rods are more important to find ... plenty of Bosch 010 & 009's hanging around.

#18 275 GTB-4

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Posted 15 August 2008 - 09:47

Catalina must be hibernating....somebody go and poke him with a stick :rotfl:

#19 chequer57

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 03:23

Some pre 85 Vees seem to be escaping from their storage sheds. Hopefully this 1984 Spectre will be reunited with it's previous owner soon and cloaked in it's period body work. If not it's on the market.


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#20 Jacer

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Posted 23 October 2008 - 21:07

I remember the Goldsmith car leaning up against the back wall when I was at Group Automotive Services (GAS). Maybe Peter H Williamson took it with him down to Moruya, maybe of of the JH cars. Willo has a Nota in bits and I believe he has an unraced MJM back in his possesion too. With Mr Holmes he once told me he had 1 of every Birrana in both F3 and F2 of all models one of them the Geoff Brabham Grace Bros car. Along with the Birranas I saw log books for some Minis, Clubmans, one of Leo's Lotus' and has a shed full of DJR 03 Sierra inc pit booms and wheels and tyres. Unfortunately all need rebuilding but still be an interesting look although a little frustrating for some. Nice looking Spectre Ian look good painted in blue ;)

#21 Peter Leversedge

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 04:07

Must be a few in NZ. I remember racing a F Vee in maybe the late '60s, belonged to a guy from Wellington, Can't remember his name of the top of my head but I look it up, maybe the car is still around in a barn some place waiting to be a "barn find"

#22 chequer57

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Posted 26 October 2008 - 11:14

Maybe that's why many of the Queesnland Historic Vee guys are making a trip to NZ at the end of the year. "An over the ditch back shed discovery tour."

Regards,

Ian

#23 Quixotic

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:56

G'Day Ian,

Still happy to all of your S.A. leg work.

Regards,

John Swensen

P.S. The Stinger is finally finished. Now for painting

#24 Quixotic

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 06:59

Ohhhhhhh I just saw the Mako pic...........

Who owns it, is it for sale.........Does it have a log book.

I love the look of it.

J

#25 chequer57

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 07:09

Down John down,

The Mako is sort of for sale (owner said he would sell), but we are still having fun trying to track down who owned it when it raced (ie there is no log book).

Regards,

Ian

#26 Quixotic

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Posted 07 November 2008 - 07:21

Down????

I am not a dog. heh heh heh.

Saw a completed one on the Historic Vee site.......Nice.

I really like the early Vees with the faux open mouth noses.

Regards,

John

#27 Quixotic

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Posted 09 November 2008 - 23:33

I just read the post about the GAS that went into the Pond at Amaroo.

Didn't a Formula Vee end up in the dam at Warwick Farm on a private practice with tragic results for the driver?

Actually, Vees would have to be one of the safest classes in racing. No fatalities in race accidents in the history here in Australia, at least to my knowledge.

I am not counting the Gent who had a Heart Attack while practicing at Wakefield Park a few years ago, nor am I including the amphibious Vee mentioned above.

Much safer than my previous racing of Road Racing Motorcycles, and then Sidecars.

Regards,

John

#28 Ray Bell

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Posted 10 November 2008 - 11:29

Originally posted by Quixotic
I just read the post about the GAS that went into the Pond at Amaroo.....


Here? Or elsewhere? I've posted the full details somewhere else here, it was the funniest thing to watch!

.....Didn't a Formula Vee end up in the dam at Warwick Farm on a private practice with tragic results for the driver?


That's also on record here on TNF, in the 'Speed's Ultimate Price' thread. The poor guy was out at the circuit alone, went into the dam instead of across The Causeway (on the short circuit) and drowned.

#29 Quixotic

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 00:27

Nah Ray, I read it here. This is the only Forum that I belong to. although I did see something on the Motorsport Memorial website a while ago I think.

I would be interested in your opinion Ray.

I think that Group V could, given time and the involvement of people like Ian Lee and other like minded individuals fill the same position within Historic Racing as Modern Vees do for Motor Racing now, namely as a viable "Low Cost" entry level feeder class.

What is your view?

#30 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:27

My opinion?

There are too many classes already!

When Vees were introduced (yeah, I was there and saw Greg going around in the Formcar...) there might have been a need for an intro level class. But since that time another has come and outgrown itself, Formula Ford, and that's actually detracted from open wheeler racing in Australia.

Now what do we have? I'm not really sure, actually... Vees and then there's a more 'modern' Vee class, then FFs which think they're world championship material. So much so that they run a state level of FFs to subdivide the classes further. There are still some F2s around, but F3 is out there, where are F4000s? Or anything else of any real speed and power without mudguards?

This is, of course, repeated in Historics. If there are separate races for Vees, FFs, other post-1960 or 1964 racing cars, and then F5000s separately again, and if the race program has to have Group S, then some pre-'60 cars (mixed in, always, with the pre-'40s cars), and the sports racing cars want to have a separate run too, then pre-'65 and post-'64 tintops, and they're egging things on to have post-'73 or something too... it'll be 11pm before practice is over!

And no, I don't have the answer. Except to repeat what I've said before, and what was suggested by the Qld Vee Association at one time... run a race meeting just for open wheelers.

Build it and they will come... and I mean spectators as well as competitors...

#31 Quixotic

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 01:48

Thank You Ray.

An open wheeler only meeting would be great wouldn't it?

I was thinking that Historic vees could be a viable option for those of us who are too poor to spend huge amounts on other classes in Historic racing, (I love Formula Juniors, but could not afford one).

Cheap racing would bring more people to the sport I think. There is however the hurdle of some of the more "Dyed in the Wool", Historic Racing types here in SA who only want "Real Race Cars" at historic meetings.

The view of some of these gentlemen is that Historic Vees should never have been granted Historic Status.

Personally I think these guys are just being snobs. A quote by one of them about formula Vee is very illuminating:

Formula Vee was only brought into existance to keep, "Riff Raff", out of real racing cars.

I'll leave it to you as to which view is more damaging to the Advancement of Historic Racing. I will admit to having a bit of a chip on my shoulder about the views of the "Traditionalists".

Regards,

John

#32 Ray Bell

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 02:44

John, I reckon you could probably run a Clubman for the same or less than a Vee...

And be a lot quicker and have more fun.

#33 Quixotic

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 02:58

Ahhhh, I like Clubmans, especially ASPs, But I also must admit to you, withinin the privacy of this little forum, that I have a, ummm, errr..... Little bit of a VW obsession.

I am undergoing treatment for it, the group therapy is going well, but there are times when I regress a bit.

Thank you for your understanding. I think the men in the White Kombi are coming to take me away again......

John Swensen

#34 Jacer

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Posted 11 November 2008 - 20:35

Ian, I believe that the Russell Green Mk2 Rennmax, chassis #2 is about to come up for sale. Russell owned it from 79 to 84 buying it back in 2005 and lovingly restoring it to his spec of the early eigthies. It's the famous ex Sprouster owned Penklis (spelling ?) driven car that had the frightening roll over the top of the hill at Amaroo on TV in the 70's.

#35 Quixotic

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:00

Some Formula Vee makes that I am unfamiliar with:

Here is a short list of Formula Vee makes that I am unfamiliar with. I would be keen for any information.

Were they just one offs? Were they made in series?, and do any of them still exist?

I do realise that Ian would more than likely know. Hence my Post.

The List is as follows :confused:

a. GV Formula Vee, (Graham Vaughan???),

b. Wirra Vee,

c. CMS Vee,

d. Malmark, (Is this the same as a Malmark Elfin?),

e. Lamco, (one for sale at the moment),

f. Moxon,

g. G.D. Vee, (possibly a Mk1 Rennmax copy),

h. Bardahl Vee, (Possibly a Sponsors name),

i. Standfast Vee, (Aub Revell??),

j. Wilco Vee, and,

j. Tripps Vee, (Driven by a Mr E. Buessleman).


Regards,

John Swensen

#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:35

"A Mr E Buesselman" indeed!

Enno drove this car, gave Bernie a hard time quite often, built the car with his brother, Udo, as far as I know. Udo used to drive the tow car right through his latter career (in F2) at least as Enno didn't want to risk having to give up racing if he were to lose his road licence. Friends of Kevin Carrad... I need say no more.

The CMS was from Cullen's Marine Service in Melbourne, there was a number of them.

Malmark would be the Malmark Elfins, copies of the early Elfin Vee, popular in SA.

Moxon... John Moxon's car.

I remember the Wirra, don't remember the details.

The Bardahl Vee was driven in a totally dominating fashion by Colin Bond once or twice. I think it was a one-off and it was Bardahl sponsored. It may, however, have been a rebodied or partly rebodied car of some other make.

You know about CeeBee Vees, of course?

#37 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 01:37

Originally posted by Jacer
Ian, I believe that the Russell Green Mk2 Rennmax, chassis #2 is about to come up for sale. Russell owned it from 79 to 84 buying it back in 2005 and lovingly restoring it to his spec of the early eigthies. It's the famous ex Sprouster owned Penklis (spelling ?) driven car that had the frightening roll over the top of the hill at Amaroo on TV in the 70's.


Original owner, Mark Penklis... I think this might have been the first or the second of the Mk 2 Rennmaxes, was white with green stripes or trim. Very well presented car, I always thought those Mk 2 Rennmaxes were a fitting follow-up to the original Rennmax Vees.

#38 Jacer

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 02:26

Originally posted by Quixotic
Some Formula Vee makes that I am unfamiliar with:

Here is a short list of Formula Vee makes that I am unfamiliar with. I would be keen for any information.

Were they just one offs? Were they made in series?, and do any of them still exist?

I do realise that Ian would more than likely know. Hence my Post.

The List is as follows :confused:

a. GV Formula Vee, (Graham Vaughan???),

b. Wirra Vee,

c. CMS Vee,

d. Malmark, (Is this the same as a Malmark Elfin?),

e. Lamco, (one for sale at the moment),

f. Moxon,

g. G.D. Vee, (possibly a Mk1 Rennmax copy),

h. Bardahl Vee, (Possibly a Sponsors name),

i. Standfast Vee, (Aub Revell??),

j. Wilco Vee, and,

j. Tripps Vee, (Driven by a Mr E. Buessleman).


Regards,

John Swensen

Correct for the GV. The Wirra was my first car in 1983 built by Peter Houston in 1973, it was a one off. It lives up the coast in NSW somewhere I'm told. The Bardahl was driven by Colin Bond and again I'm told held the lap record around Surfers Paradise with Colin at the wheel.It was a one off which was very similar to an early Mako. The last guy who raced it Gerard Manion in 1984 gave the chassis/ body to a guy doing his fibreglass repairs in Windsor NSW in the late eighties/ early nineties When racing Formula Ford. It has since dissappeared. There is plenty of interest from Vee guys to know where it ended up so if anyone knows of a guy that used to do fibreglass repairs on various stuff including Elfin 620's let us know! The Standfast was a John Grant creation. The Tripps was another car owned by the family at one stage. I was told at one meeting the scrutineers told Eno to repaint it as it was a horrible mat finish that looked terrible. So he did in the same colour and finish! I still have some colour pictures of it somewhere in it's original body and colours. The Penklis car was chassis #2 again as it was another car I owned. Can't help myself! The log book had either Bill Norton or Christie (can't remember which Bill) as first owner, Brian Sprouster then Russell Green. Rennmax Mk 2 #1 ex Cashin ( the other Bill owned it first), ex McCombie now lives in WA as of a few months ago. Mk 2 #2 had the honour of being rolled by the first, second and third of it's drivers!

#39 Quixotic

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 06:47

Yep,

I rember the CeeBees. I nearly bought one instead of the first Stinger Vee I bought.

Much cheaper than the Stinger though. An NG Elfin copy?

Not that I have owned too many race cars.

Dozens of race bikes, but to date only

Stinger 001 Vee,

Ex Graham Best Mk1 Nimbus,

1994 Swift Formula Ford,

2005 Citroen Xsara Production Money Pit...err..... Race car, and

Stinger 006 Vee.

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#40 Jacer

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:04

The NG type car your thinking of is the Bee Cee built by Bernie Cashin of Qld. Bernie had access to the ex Poole nationals winning car of 80? 81? as good mate Graham Benson had bought it. He produced a copy for himself in 82/83 to race and when guys in NSW got wind of it he had to produce another 7 or so before we would stamp his paper work to leave for QLD. Most of us called them Spectres as Bernie had but he had purchased a chassis plate off the late Peter Ward to make it a legit. The rest of us young guys who purchased kits off Bernie didn't know that so there are around 6 copys of the original NG that have copy of a copy names. Very confusing just ask Ian Lee. Bernie said that he was thinking of building them in QLD and calling them Bee Cee's. The red car further up the thread is my old Bernie built Spectre that I had much success with in the eighties in Pram City colours. When Bernie finally moved to the still quite young QLD Vee scene in late 83 needless to say had a ready made market for his well made and proven 'Bee Cee'.
The Cee Bee's that Ray is talking about I think is the fore runner to the Mk1 Rennmax . You bought Besty's Nimbus. Gee he must have cried parting with that. How long did he own it 30 years +? You must have a big shed to fit all that. Stinger 006 that isn't the Quigley car is it? I know the Proctors spent a mint building that.
David

#41 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 08:45

Originally posted by Jacer
.....The Cee Bee's that Ray is talking about I think is the forerunner to the Mk1 Rennmax.....


Actually the Cee Bee was the Mk 1 Rennmax...

'C' is for 'Cusack', 'B' is for 'Burr'... Bruce Burr, Greg Cusack's mechanic. When they demonstrated the Formcar at the 'Farm they already had it planned to sell the cars under the Cee Bee Vee name. But the cars were being built by Bob Britton... Mr Rennmax.

Pretty soon, all the owners were going to Britto for fix-ups and so on, Burry wasn't being very helpful and they reckoned that they should call them what they truly were - Rennmaxes. You would have to scour the Warwick Farm programmes or race reports to find out which ones were called Cee Bees, but obviously Britto kept on making them after Cusack and Burr fell out of the picture.

#42 Quixotic

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:01

The Nimbus I had was his first one. He sold it to Sel Duce, I got it from there. He still has the Mk2 Nimbus. He is still trying to sell it. Besty has retired, however he still keeps up with the organisation side of the Fvee Assn here in SA.

Cee Bee.....Bee Cee......Dyslexia must be kicking in again.....

John Swensen

#43 Quixotic

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:05

Just looked at some pics of the Concept Vee. I think you would have to be a short Arse to drive it.

Just like the Kestrals.

#44 Quixotic

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:07

1977 Stag for sale.

http://www.fvee.org....orsale/stag1977

$10 Grand A bit rich, but who knows someone may want it.

Interesting body work. A nice looking car though

#45 Jacer

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:11

Yeah sorry Ray by forerunner that's what I meant. I'd heard the story but knew that it would be told better from someone around at the time.

#46 Ray Bell

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:20

I'll have to post a copy of the advertisement they ran in Racing Car News...

They were a very sweet little car, and Britto had cleverly designed the chassis to get the centre of gravity right down low. It was years before he even dreamed of trying to improve on the design.

#47 Jacer

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:24

Originally posted by Quixotic
Just looked at some pics of the Concept Vee. I think you would have to be a short Arse to drive it.

Just like the Kestrals.

Ah yes the concept. Ian could definatly help you with this one. Greg McCombie decided along with Steve Cramp around 1981 that they should build a car current to Formula One which at the time was ground effects. The GS82 was based around the Mk 2 Rennmax with the firewall and obviously driver moved forward 12". They also had full length ground effect venturis mounted on the underside of the side pods. With a 1200 Vee's Hp in 1982 needless to say they were very slow in a straight line. Once they removed the suction so to speak they were a handy car in NSW, lightening in the wet but maybe that had a bit to do with Greg also.

THE Formcar is another in the collection of the Toowoomba farmer. :down:

#48 Quixotic

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:34

The Toowoomba Farmer????

Is this the legendary collection of race cars stored in farm sheds?

I'd kill to discover something like that......

#49 Jacer

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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:40

Originally posted by Ray Bell
I'll have to post a copy of the advertisement they ran in Racing Car News...

They were a very sweet little car, and Britto had cleverly designed the chassis to get the centre of gravity right down low. It was years before he even dreamed of trying to improve on the design.

To be honest I love to restore a Mk1 Rennmax as they were a lovely piece of work from the time. The most original Mk 1 around at the moment would be living up the coast in NSW. The ex Finlay, ex smith MK1 was crashed in 1985 by a lease driver for the then current owner and badly damaged. As this car was know here as the bannana boat from is previous history when taken to Bob for an opinion The owner was told to forget repairing it and that he had another chassis out the back. The chassis was chassis '0' so to speak. Bob had built a chassis to make jigs off and then discarded to THAT shed out the back. I borrowed the body mould off Bob in 1990 for the Mk2 for which he had to delve into that shed. All sorts of abandoned projects were cast over his shoulder as he dug through the pile. One piece was the top body section of Bob Muir's T300. He said "I was going to use that once and graft it into something else" then cast it over his shoulder again. There is another Mk1 for sale on the historic Vee site. I think it's an unraced '68 model. The Mk2 Bob told me was inspired by the Biranna. Is it true that Bob is now down the south coast?

#50 Jacer

Jacer
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Posted 12 November 2008 - 09:46

Originally posted by Quixotic
The Toowoomba Farmer????

Is this the legendary collection of race cars stored in farm sheds?

I'd kill to discover something like that......

The famous JH