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Old Formula Vees - Group V in Australia


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#601 Eshe

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 12:03

A few pics I came across tonight, firstly late 1970's Amaroo Park:

Posted Image

Bob Sanderson?

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Sorry don't know who these two drivers are, no notes with the negs.


And I think this is around 1983 also at Amaroo Park in a wet practice:

Posted Image

Posted Image

Of course any further descriptions are most welcome,

And one of Greg in that other car...

Posted Image


Edited by Eshe, 26 August 2011 - 12:12.


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#602 chequer57

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 14:33

Just to help with the 83 shots.

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Bernie Cashin in his Spectre.


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Frank Klienig in the Mako .... hard to tell who else is out there having fun.

Edited by chequer57, 26 August 2011 - 14:38.


#603 brucemoxon

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 07:40

A few pics I came across tonight, firstly late 1970's Amaroo Park:



Posted Image

Sorry don't know who these two drivers are, no notes with the negs.



Car 51 is, I think, Colin Moulds. This is the green car Damon Beck bought in 1979.


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#604 Greg McCombie

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Posted 28 August 2011 - 21:13

[quote name='brucemoxon' date='Aug 27 2011, 07:40' post='5243522']
Car 51 is, I think, Colin Moulds. This is the green car Damon Beck bought in 1979.


Just a guess, but the car spinning could be Bill Norton. Looks the right sort of colour.... this Mk2 went on to Brian Sprouster then Russell Green



#605 chequer57

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Posted 03 September 2011 - 13:22

For those into Tassie Vee from the past the link below will take you to Andrew Trowbridge's photos of the cars his Dad built in the 70's & 80's

Trowbridge Formula Vees

Edited by chequer57, 03 September 2011 - 13:23.


#606 Geoff & Grant

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 00:04

A question for the history buffs. In 1968 there were 6 rounds of a Formula Vee World Championship in Europe. Australian Geroge Reynolds took his Elfin over to compete. Two rounds in in England (Siverstone and Brans Hatch I think), one in Germany (Nurburgring), one in Greece(The Acropolis), one in Holland and one in Spain. What track did they use in Spain. It was a proper track, not a road circuit, on the north coast near the sea. If no one knows do you have clues on where I can make enquires. Geoff

#607 timbo

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Posted 29 September 2011 - 01:38

Looks the right sort of colour....


On a black and white photo? :)




#608 rugolo

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 09:41

A racing photo of I assume Damian Ridgeway piloting the Elfin now owned by Des Piggot in it's glory days at Sandown.
Posted Image
Photo is from a flickr album.
I assume that is Maurie Fordam No.13 behind him in the Phantom.


Yup, its Ridgeway, Maurie Fordam, ? Graeme Schickerling, Ricky Edgar, Don greiveson, dont know the result but all were capable of winning.

Edited by rugolo, 06 October 2011 - 10:56.


#609 rugolo

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Posted 06 October 2011 - 10:11

If that was the very first NG which Keith Poole first ran at the Vee Nationals (?) at Winton in '76 then I might have a photo... repeat, might. Here is one I have from that meeting with, I think, Dave Turnbull leading.

Posted Image


Dave Turnbull, Paul King both sponsored by Lew Wade Fiat dealers in Melbourne.


#610 Greg McCombie

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Posted 12 October 2011 - 21:52

On a black and white photo? :)


Bill's Rennmax was a gunmetal grey colour, and he was over 6' tall so he had trouble fitting into the car.....

#611 Piquet959

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Posted 13 October 2011 - 11:04

Any one heard about the original elfin f vee hiding under a tarp in country Victoria?


#612 chequer57

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Posted 14 October 2011 - 11:25

Any one heard about the original elfin f vee hiding under a tarp in country Victoria?

Nothing would suprise us . . . . it's not at though Vee's are treasured other than by Formula Vee people.

I know of one Green coloured Elfin copy kicking around country Victoria on a rice farm, it may have left the shed it was in.



#613 Quixotic

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 08:39

What would be the most competitive makes of cars in Group Va and Group Vb?

Makos?, NG Elfins?, or any other ones that jump out of the results pages from the 60s and 70s.

#614 chequer57

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 11:44

What would be the most competitive makes of cars in Group Va and Group Vb?

Makos?, NG Elfins?, or any other ones that jump out of the results pages from the 60s and 70s.

The most sucessful cars from the 60's and 70' mmmm
Elfin NG 7601 probably be the most sucessful Vee in Australia ever along with Doug Angus' Nimbus and later on Bernie's Rennmax Mk I.

I could open a can of worms here.

#615 Quixotic

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 12:03

The most sucessful cars from the 60's and 70' mmmm
Elfin NG 7601 probably be the most sucessful Vee in Australia ever along with Doug Angus' Nimbus and later on Bernie's Rennmax Mk I.

I could open a can of worms here.



C'mon Ian........ Get the can opener out......

#616 brucemoxon

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 20:20

The most sucessful cars from the 60's and 70' mmmm
Elfin NG 7601 probably be the most sucessful Vee in Australia ever along with Doug Angus' Nimbus and later on Bernie's Rennmax Mk I.

I could open a can of worms here.



Bernie Haehnle had two Rennmax Mk1s. The first was Ken Goodwin's and is still around somewhere, in a shed.

The second (and the one he still has) has been through a number of owners, including Phil Revell, Aub's son, from whom Bernie bought the car, complete with non-Rennmax nose.

Most successful historic Vee? It's going to be hard to beat David Cutts' Spectre - David's one of the best Vee preparers and builders, and a top-notch driver. Up to now, honors have been spread around pretty well.


Bruce Moxon

#617 DarrenC

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Posted 25 October 2011 - 23:15

More of an update on that Mako I bought:

I've given up trying to trace the history - the last owner bought it from a truck driver who won't answer my e-mails - so the trail is cold. without a log book, I can't get a CofD (or a replacement log book), and so I won't be driving it in any CAMS events as a historic Vee.

I also can't prove it had a log book, and so it can't be provided with a current log book as a current spec Vee because it either has to have been log booked prior to a specified date (which escapes me - but is irrelevant, because I can't prove it had a past log book), or it has to be cut up and remodelled with side intrusion and disc brakes - which would ruin the car, in my view. After the difficulties associated with getting the history for the car, I also built up a current spec engine, with FVEE CAM (albeit with 43cc heads) - and I'm not about to rebuild it until or unless I know that I could get a CofD for it.

So, I'm thwarted from racing the car as an historic car (unless a log book appears for it) or driving it in the current FVEE 1200 state series by the CAMS rules requiring the car to be previously log booked, or otherwise compliant with the current body and brake specs. The answer thankfully lies in the ability to log book it as Formula Libre (which will allow me to enter into CAMS Level 2 events with a CAMS level 2 license), and also get a AASA log book (and national AASA license,) which will allow me to run at AASA races, and GEAR meetings. I'll post some finished photos when I finish painting the body - it is vastly improved over its original state.

I do wonder how replica cars in other classes manage to get limited COD's and race as historic cars in their classes. Please note that I'm not suggesting my car is a replica - but if replica cars are allowed to run (and I can think of a replica brabham that does just this), it does seem strange that there would be one set of rules for Historic formula Vee, and another set for other classes of vehicles - can anyone shed some light on this? How does a replica get a CofD - or a log book, for that matter?


#618 BT 35-8

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 01:32

Darren,

Have you spoken to Greg Hepburn and or the Historic Formula Vee people.
No replica Brabhams are running , what you may have seen is a car built in
the period which is a sort of replica of a Brabham but which has it's own name
such as Orion special or similar.
I am sure the Historic Vee guys will try and assist your history search if you contact them.

Bryan Miller.

#619 DarrenC

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:36

Darren,

Have you spoken to Greg Hepburn and or the Historic Formula Vee people.
No replica Brabhams are running , what you may have seen is a car built in
the period which is a sort of replica of a Brabham but which has it's own name
such as Orion special or similar.
I am sure the Historic Vee guys will try and assist your history search if you contact them.

Bryan Miller.


Hi Bryan,

yes, Ian Lee has been very helpful, but not terribly successful in tracing down the history of this car - he, like me, ran into a brick wall (figuratively speaking) with the guy who owned the car two owners ago and won't answer e-mails. I'm in a catch 22 situation - I can't race the car under new regs because it is a historic car, and I can't race the car in the historics because I can't get a replacement log book for it, or a CofD (because i can't find the original log book or owner history). AASA racing is the only reprieve - I am very glad there is an organisation outside of CAMS that allows historic cars the opportunity to race - even if the old log books can't be found.

I should mention that I was one of the founding members of the HFVAA all those years ago when we stood the organisation up and got it registered. The idea was to be able to get old cars restored and racing again. The current CAMS rules effectively prevent this for owners or restorers of cars for which log books are lost, or otherwise unable to be traced.

As for the CofD issue - I find the advertisment here: http://my105.com/Lis...08/Default.aspx a little confusing. It seems to suggest that this replica has a CofD.

Cheers,

Darren



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#620 BT 35-8

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 03:52

Darren,

I suspected that it may be that car .
The car carries a Historic logbook and C of D as an Orion which it has always been called.
If you look further down the advert. you will see that name Orion , probably a little bit of
salesmanship there by the owner , at a race meeting the car would have be be entered as
an Orion . whilst the owner may use various descriptions for sales purposes it is what is
recorded on the C of D that tells the story correctly .

Re. the Vee , surely some people in the Vee world will be able to recognise the car from old
paintwork or similar , you could apply for a Qualified C of D for the car if the HFVAA guys believe
it to be a genuine car , Frank Kleinig needs to have a look at it to see if he can help .

Bryan.

#621 Quixotic

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 08:28

Darren,

I suspected that it may be that car .
The car carries a Historic logbook and C of D as an Orion which it has always been called.
If you look further down the advert. you will see that name Orion , probably a little bit of
salesmanship there by the owner , at a race meeting the car would have be be entered as
an Orion . whilst the owner may use various descriptions for sales purposes it is what is
recorded on the C of D that tells the story correctly .

Re. the Vee , surely some people in the Vee world will be able to recognise the car from old
paintwork or similar , you could apply for a Qualified C of D for the car if the HFVAA guys believe
it to be a genuine car , Frank Kleinig needs to have a look at it to see if he can help .

Bryan.



Yep, The Orion was raced in the period....... Finished in 1969, but not hitting the track to 1970 it certainly deserves it's CoD. However it has to run with the Wings and Slicks type cars from the era. Not competitive unfortunately. Now if the new owner got permission to run the car in the Historic Group before which more accurately reflects cars such as these......... A different story

#622 Quixotic

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 08:33

What about the Venoms??????

were they any good? I have heard that they were a bit........... Um....Errr...... a bit flexible. A bit like the Jabiru, or so I am told.

#623 Quixotic

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 09:45

Hmmmmmm A suggestion was made to me just now.......... As I already have Ex Daniel Pauperis Avanti along with all the body moulds for it, perhaps I should look for a historic eligible Avanti.

I never actually considered an Avanti, but as I already have one in my shed, albeit one that is ineligible for historic racing, perhaps I should consider trying to find a Log Booked example with a current Cod. Only 10 were built, so it may not be an easy task.

Any thoughts?

#624 chequer57

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:39

Hmmmmmm A suggestion was made to me just now.......... As I already have Ex Daniel Pauperis Avanti along with all the body moulds for it, perhaps I should look for a historic eligible Avanti.

I never actually considered an Avanti, but as I already have one in my shed, albeit one that is ineligible for historic racing, perhaps I should consider trying to find a Log Booked example with a current Cod. Only 10 were built, so it may not be an easy task.

Any thoughts?

Of the 10 Avanti's

3 are carrying in C of D's and were at Wakefield last time out.

3 are post 85 in their racing debut, but the one first raced in 86 and could get a C of D ie James Dunn's car but he's unlikely to sell as he owned it since new.

1 is called a Wright (David Condon's car but he's unlikely to sell again owned since new)

1 is not much of car at all ie the one Mark McHerny parked into the wall at stop-go, Toni (Mark's wife) tells me David (Mark's Dad) McH has dreams of rebuilding it one day . . . . . .

That leaves 2 possibles.

Wal Shepard car; again he has owned the car forever and said to me he won't sell it, but asked me how much I thought it was worth.

Lastly Geoff Turner who's down Shepparton way who bought ex Shane Kenyon car off a relative. He'd be most likely to part with it as there is no sentimental attachment other than he has a daughter dead keen to race it !!!!

There it is the Avantis all present and sort of accounted for.

Edited by chequer57, 26 October 2011 - 10:44.


#625 Quixotic

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 10:44

Of the 10 Avanti's

3 are carrying in C of D's and were at Wakefield last time out.

3 are post 85 in their racing debut, but the one first raced in 86 and could get a C of D ie James Dunn's car but he's unlikely to sell as he owned it since new.

1 is called a Wright (David Condon's car but he's unlikely to sell again owned since new)

1 is not much of car at all ie the one Mark McHerny parked into the wall at stop-go, Toni (Mark's wife) tells me David (Mark's Dad) McH has dreams of rebuilding it one day . . . . . .

That leaves 2 possibles.

Wal Shepard car; again he has owned the car for ever who said he won't sell it, but asked me how much I thought it was worth.

Lastly Geoff Turner who's down Shepparton way who bought ex Shane Kenyon car off a relative. He'd be most likely to part with it as there is no sentimental attachment other than he has a daughter dead keen to race it !!!!

There it is the Avantis all present and sort of accounted for.




So..........

not an Avanti then.......... what else of the same quality is around?


#626 DarrenC

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Posted 26 October 2011 - 21:32

Darren,

I suspected that it may be that car .
The car carries a Historic logbook and C of D as an Orion which it has always been called.
If you look further down the advert. you will see that name Orion , probably a little bit of
salesmanship there by the owner , at a race meeting the car would have be be entered as
an Orion . whilst the owner may use various descriptions for sales purposes it is what is
recorded on the C of D that tells the story correctly .

Re. the Vee , surely some people in the Vee world will be able to recognise the car from old
paintwork or similar , you could apply for a Qualified C of D for the car if the HFVAA guys believe
it to be a genuine car , Frank Kleinig needs to have a look at it to see if he can help .

Bryan.



ahhhh - that would explain it - I misread the advertisement.

As for my Vee - Ian thought he recognised it from pictures, but getting a log book or a replacement log book is proving to be very difficult. when I called CAMS and spoke to them, they were adament that I needed to be able to provide them with a full ownership lineage, and /or the old log book.

If I were to review the rules, I'd suggest that cars that have been restored to the Historic speciofications should be able to be log booked as 'restored historic vehicles', and provided with a qualified CofD to allow them to compete - this car is clearly not a recently made replica - the rust that came out of some of the bits I removed stands testimony to the years it has been around. If ayone can see a problem with what I've suggested, please let me know - because i think that if CAMS were to allow restored (not remanufactured) historic cars be log booked and get qualified CofD's, the sport would benefit from a whole lot more cars being able to be put onto the grid.

Frank K has seen the car - he acknowledges it is a Mako Vee, but the history remains a mystery.



#627 BT 35-8

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 06:11

Darren,

May I suggest you fully read the CAMS Historic site in regard to the three tier C of D system.

Bryan Miller.

#628 DarrenC

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 01:58

Darren,

May I suggest you fully read the CAMS Historic site in regard to the three tier C of D system.

Bryan Miller.



Bryan,

I'll explain my dilemma.

To apply for a CofD, the car must first have a log book. CAMS tells me I can't apply for a replacement log book because I don't have the original log book number, or I can't provide a list of previous owners of the car in chronological order.

The only way I could find out the history of the car is via a truck driver who owned the car two people ago telling me who he bought the car from - and that bloke won't answer my e-mails.

The other alternative is to get a new log book for the car - and drive the car in the current 1200cc state series - something I'd do if i could get a new log book.

The 2011 CAMS manual, on close reading of para 2.1, would have the reader think that only vehciles of 1600cc need to comply with the side intrusion rules. My view is that this is probably just because the 2011 CAMS manual is particularly poorly worded, and the intention is that the word 'and' should have been an 'or' (see the BOLD type in the copied reference, below), because the applicable CAMS Technical bulletin (03-045) para 9.4.1 (which can't be retrieved from the CAMS web site, and is held by some very few well read Vee enthusiasts) indicates that the new rules for side intrusion and roll over should also apply to 1200cc Vees first log booked after 1 Jan 2003. In any normal legislative environment, the later of the two guidelines would be taken to be the correct interpretation in the event of a contradiction, however in this case - the safe option is to assume that the CAMS manual has been poorly written.

The specific wording of the CAMS manual is:

2.1 Frame: The frame must be of steel tube construction. Cars with log books first issued on or after 1 January
2003 and cars fitted with a 1600cc engine must incorporate adequate roll over and side impact protection.
Specifications for new chassis requirements are set out in the FVAA Technical Manual.

The specific wording of the CAMS Tech bulletin is more inclusive, and states that car must be log booked before 1 Jan 2003 or otherwise comply with the new rules for roll over protection and side intrusion - be it for 1200cc Vees OR 1600cc Vees.

So - if I want a CAMS log book, the only real option is to apply for a current log book - which means I need to cut the car up and remake it with the new bar work. This is because I can't provide a history of the car, or an original log book showing the car was log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003 - so I can't apply for an Historic log book, a replacement log book, or a log book on the basis that the car was first log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003. The simple matter of the issue is that even though this is a Mk1 MAKO made some time in the 60's or 70's, the CAMS Tech Bulletin prevents me from obtaining a new log book for the car unless I modify it to comply with the modern side impact protection rules, because I can't prove it had a log book prior to 1 Jan 2003.

In short, whereas the current CAMS manual wording strictly does not prevent the car from getting a current log book, in practice, I would tend to think that the 03-045 tech Bulletin probably does - and this will prevent any 'chook shed find' restoration being log booked as a current car. Getting an historic log book relies on the ability to have an old log book for the car, or a list of owners is known and in chronological order - neither of which I can do. Arguing with CAMS about what the rules say is pretty pointless if the scrutineer refers to the Tech Bulletin, and not the current CAMS manual.

Without a log book, a CofD can't be initiated.

If I were rewriting the rules, I would specify that a panel of experts should be able to inspect any potential Historic cars, and on the basis that the panel agrees that the car is genuinely a historic Vee, and MAY HAVE BEEN log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003, then as long as it meets the safety rules as they were on 31 Dec 2002, the car should be eligible for log book (and then, perhaps, a qualified CofD application).

In my case, I'd select Frank Klienig and Col Merz as experts - Frank because he built and designed them, Col because he owned one when they were new in the 70s, and because he helped me restore the vehicle, and knows it very well indeed.

The way the CAMS Manual rules are currently interpreted, it is doubtful that many of the potentially available cars will qualify for CAMS log books - and they will therefore not be available for the CAMS grid in either the Historics or current series. A better solution for the sport would be to agree that certification by two independent members of a panel of experts should be sufficient to certify a historic Vee as being eligible for an historic or even a current log book (in conjunction with an inspection from a current, listed CAMS scrutineer) under a 'IT MAY HAVE BEEN' log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003 provision, because it was built prior to 1 Jan 2003.

If I were to receive any level of support for this argument, I'd write to CAMS with a proposed amendment to their rules. The unfortunate thing is that a change like this may in effect give rise to the decrease in value of currently log booked Historic Vees (because more cars could be so log booked) - so it stands to reason that I shouldn't anticipate a lot of support from some of the current owners of historic Vees - but it would open up the sport to a lot more cars - mine would be one of them.

Cheers,

Darren

Edited by DarrenC, 31 October 2011 - 02:27.


#629 BT 35-8

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 02:28

Darren,

There are plenty of old racing cars that have lost their logbooks , including my March,
this is not an absolute , please give Greg Hepburn a telephone call.

I have no knowledge or need to know in regard to current F.Vee rules.

Bryan Miller.

#630 GMACKIE

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 04:27

Darren,

Maybe side intrusion protection is not a bad idea? Mako drivers are not that well protected, so any safety improvement makes sense to me, whatever the rules say.

Cheers, Greg

#631 Jacer

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Posted 31 October 2011 - 20:48

Bryan,

I'll explain my dilemma.

To apply for a CofD, the car must first have a log book. CAMS tells me I can't apply for a replacement log book because I don't have the original log book number, or I can't provide a list of previous owners of the car in chronological order.

The only way I could find out the history of the car is via a truck driver who owned the car two people ago telling me who he bought the car from - and that bloke won't answer my e-mails.

The other alternative is to get a new log book for the car - and drive the car in the current 1200cc state series - something I'd do if i could get a new log book.

The 2011 CAMS manual, on close reading of para 2.1, would have the reader think that only vehciles of 1600cc need to comply with the side intrusion rules. My view is that this is probably just because the 2011 CAMS manual is particularly poorly worded, and the intention is that the word 'and' should have been an 'or' (see the BOLD type in the copied reference, below), because the applicable CAMS Technical bulletin (03-045) para 9.4.1 (which can't be retrieved from the CAMS web site, and is held by some very few well read Vee enthusiasts) indicates that the new rules for side intrusion and roll over should also apply to 1200cc Vees first log booked after 1 Jan 2003. In any normal legislative environment, the later of the two guidelines would be taken to be the correct interpretation in the event of a contradiction, however in this case - the safe option is to assume that the CAMS manual has been poorly written.

The specific wording of the CAMS manual is:

2.1 Frame: The frame must be of steel tube construction. Cars with log books first issued on or after 1 January
2003 and cars fitted with a 1600cc engine must incorporate adequate roll over and side impact protection.
Specifications for new chassis requirements are set out in the FVAA Technical Manual.

The specific wording of the CAMS Tech bulletin is more inclusive, and states that car must be log booked before 1 Jan 2003 or otherwise comply with the new rules for roll over protection and side intrusion - be it for 1200cc Vees OR 1600cc Vees.

So - if I want a CAMS log book, the only real option is to apply for a current log book - which means I need to cut the car up and remake it with the new bar work. This is because I can't provide a history of the car, or an original log book showing the car was log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003 - so I can't apply for an Historic log book, a replacement log book, or a log book on the basis that the car was first log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003. The simple matter of the issue is that even though this is a Mk1 MAKO made some time in the 60's or 70's, the CAMS Tech Bulletin prevents me from obtaining a new log book for the car unless I modify it to comply with the modern side impact protection rules, because I can't prove it had a log book prior to 1 Jan 2003.

In short, whereas the current CAMS manual wording strictly does not prevent the car from getting a current log book, in practice, I would tend to think that the 03-045 tech Bulletin probably does - and this will prevent any 'chook shed find' restoration being log booked as a current car. Getting an historic log book relies on the ability to have an old log book for the car, or a list of owners is known and in chronological order - neither of which I can do. Arguing with CAMS about what the rules say is pretty pointless if the scrutineer refers to the Tech Bulletin, and not the current CAMS manual.

Without a log book, a CofD can't be initiated.

If I were rewriting the rules, I would specify that a panel of experts should be able to inspect any potential Historic cars, and on the basis that the panel agrees that the car is genuinely a historic Vee, and MAY HAVE BEEN log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003, then as long as it meets the safety rules as they were on 31 Dec 2002, the car should be eligible for log book (and then, perhaps, a qualified CofD application).

In my case, I'd select Frank Klienig and Col Merz as experts - Frank because he built and designed them, Col because he owned one when they were new in the 70s, and because he helped me restore the vehicle, and knows it very well indeed.

The way the CAMS Manual rules are currently interpreted, it is doubtful that many of the potentially available cars will qualify for CAMS log books - and they will therefore not be available for the CAMS grid in either the Historics or current series. A better solution for the sport would be to agree that certification by two independent members of a panel of experts should be sufficient to certify a historic Vee as being eligible for an historic or even a current log book (in conjunction with an inspection from a current, listed CAMS scrutineer) under a 'IT MAY HAVE BEEN' log booked prior to 1 Jan 2003 provision, because it was built prior to 1 Jan 2003.

If I were to receive any level of support for this argument, I'd write to CAMS with a proposed amendment to their rules. The unfortunate thing is that a change like this may in effect give rise to the decrease in value of currently log booked Historic Vees (because more cars could be so log booked) - so it stands to reason that I shouldn't anticipate a lot of support from some of the current owners of historic Vees - but it would open up the sport to a lot more cars - mine would be one of them.

Cheers,

Darren

All vees after 2003 not only have to have the specified side impact be it Kevlar inserts in the body or alloy sheets attached to the chassis, chassis needing to be 500mm high at the firewall but also disc brakes. The 500mm firewall chassis height would almost be imposible to meet on it's own.

It ever there was a difficult car to find a history on the Mako would have to be the hardest. Frank told me he sold 28 bodies, don't know how many had chassis as well. They were a bit basic it seemed and it became the norm to add extra bar work over the years. Frank even said he built most of them differently. It also seemed the norm for people durung the 70's to change their name. The Quartly Vee is one that Frank told me about. He said that the kit/ car/ chassis/ body (which ever it was ) was sold as a Mako. Terry according to Frank changed a few things over time and it became the Quartly. In 1978 Frank said that CAMS contacted him about this car as the renaming in general was happening a fair bit. They asked if he considered the car as a Quartly or a Mako, He said "Mako". CAMS then changed it back. How some poor bloke 30 years later trying to work out the whys and wheres of that sort of stuff on one of those cars is beyond me. I know Terry's nephew Gary has been trying to track down the Quartly/Mako for years now.



#632 DarrenC

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 00:25

All vees after 2003 not only have to have the specified side impact be it Kevlar inserts in the body or alloy sheets attached to the chassis, chassis needing to be 500mm high at the firewall but also disc brakes. The 500mm firewall chassis height would almost be imposible to meet on it's own.

It ever there was a difficult car to find a history on the Mako would have to be the hardest. Frank told me he sold 28 bodies, don't know how many had chassis as well. They were a bit basic it seemed and it became the norm to add extra bar work over the years. Frank even said he built most of them differently. It also seemed the norm for people durung the 70's to change their name. The Quartly Vee is one that Frank told me about. He said that the kit/ car/ chassis/ body (which ever it was ) was sold as a Mako. Terry according to Frank changed a few things over time and it became the Quartly. In 1978 Frank said that CAMS contacted him about this car as the renaming in general was happening a fair bit. They asked if he considered the car as a Quartly or a Mako, He said "Mako". CAMS then changed it back. How some poor bloke 30 years later trying to work out the whys and wheres of that sort of stuff on one of those cars is beyond me. I know Terry's nephew Gary has been trying to track down the Quartly/Mako for years now.



I have assumed that vees log booked after 1 Jan 2003 all need to have the side impact bars ect - but as i point out - that is not what is actually said in the CAMS manual - the use of the word AND means that the requirement is specified only to cars with 1600 engines - as I said - it is probably a case of poor english use. Any competent legal practicioner would have picked that up if it were properly edited to ensure it is in keeping with the relevent Tech bulletin.

Many years ago now, someone once told me that some manufacturers avoided some form of tax by ever only registering one body/chassis - and then making and selling many, but only ever having one under build in their workshop - as amusing as this story is, it may also be true - who knows? Please note I'm not saying anyone in particular did this - it's just a story I heard.

As for tracing Makos - well, the lack of a chassis number is a problem - but you'd think that if I could show the car to a couple of recognised Formula Vee experts (one of which was Frank), and they signed a Statuatory declaration that, in their opinion, the car was a bone fide Mako mk 1 formula Vee that CAMS would issue an Historic log book for the vehicle. Sadly - this is not the case. As for side intrusion bars etc - the whole of the body work, including the roll bar, will need to be cut off the car at the rails becuase none of it is thick enough steel, or of the correct dimensions. To then try to weld it all back on to fit the fibreglass body will be a real challenge - and because the bar work will need to be much higher, it will be plainly visible through the polycarb windscreen sides - in effect, I think it will wreck the look of the car.

Edited by DarrenC, 01 November 2011 - 22:26.


#633 GMACKIE

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 01:22

Safer........but uglier?

#634 Quixotic

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 08:59

There is a way to get a historic log book without the missing logbook. Especially if Frank will vouch that it is one of his. You will need to convince a few people, but it is not impossible, or so I have been told. Contact Cams........

#635 DarrenC

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Posted 01 November 2011 - 23:09

There is a way to get a historic log book without the missing logbook. Especially if Frank will vouch that it is one of his. You will need to convince a few people, but it is not impossible, or so I have been told. Contact Cams........



I called CAMS this morning - it seems that they will 'consider' an application for an historic log book if I can send them certification by the builder that this is a MAKO (I subsequently called Frank, who has very kindly offered to assist), the engine sealing details (which I can provide), and some evidence that this car raced (and I have some information from a notable FVEE representatives that identifies this car from past photos).

Let's see if I can get a log book for it. I'm not even going to consider a CofD (at any level) until I can get a log book.

Thanks for your encouragement.


#636 Quixotic

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 08:40

That's a good start Darren. Work up to a Qualified CoD in small steps.

#637 rugolo

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:06

The most sucessful cars from the 60's and 70' mmmm
Elfin NG 7601 probably be the most sucessful Vee in Australia ever along with Doug Angus' Nimbus and later on Bernie's Rennmax Mk I.

I could open a can of worms here.


In Vic and SA the Elfin's were top dog by weight of numbers, but the Tripps/Dubios combination were very,very hard to beat.


#638 rugolo

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:12

What about the Venoms??????

were they any good? I have heard that they were a bit........... Um....Errr...... a bit flexible. A bit like the Jabiru, or so I am told.


Venoms were certainly a looker with the shark nose, but you're right they were flexible like spaghetti.


#639 rugolo

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Posted 02 November 2011 - 11:28

This is indeed the car I have purchased. Not a great deal has been done to it as yet.

If anybody has any information/photos that they could share I would be eternally greatful.

It is my intention to get it back (as close as practical) to looking as it does in the photo. Then get it back on the track, which could be interesting seeing as I am 6ft 2in.

Cheers
David


Why don't you contact Gary, last time I saw him his son was running karts and Gary was importing Italian karts, I know he would help, he's not the same little prick he used to be when he was racing :lol:


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#640 chequer57

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Posted 03 November 2011 - 06:31

Venoms were certainly a looker with the shark nose, but you're right they were flexible like spaghetti.

They might not be as stiff as modern Vees, or even a Rennmax MkII but at least Helmut build a space frame instead of bed frame (ie CMS and Mako).

Regards,

Ian

#641 rugolo

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 11:17

They might not be as stiff as modern Vees, or even a Rennmax MkII but at least Helmut build a space frame instead of bed frame (ie CMS and Mako).

Regards,

Ian

True, but interestingly enough, none were super competitive at least not in Vic, the only quick CMS was Eyre-Walkers and Mako Jim Adamson's whereas no Venoms were on the pace. Oppps forgot about Terry Frawleys CMS.....now he was super quick.

Edited by rugolo, 22 November 2011 - 23:08.


#642 chequer57

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 11:52

True, but interestingly enough, none were super competitive at least not in Vic, the only quick CMS was Eyre-Walkers and Mako Jim Adamson's whereas no Venoms were on the pace.

I know for a fact that David Eyre-Walkers and Peter Wards CMS' were not a CMS chassis post 1974. They were full space frames that happened to have a CMS log books (that info is from David himself).



David's car (with the two forward roll bar braces that went to the dash missing)
Posted Image

A fairly original CMS
Posted Image

mmm a bit different.


Regards,

Ian

Edited by chequer57, 05 November 2011 - 12:13.


#643 Quixotic

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Posted 05 November 2011 - 21:28

Hmmmmm not exactly a Ladder Frame, and not exactly a spaceframe either........... Somewhan transitional perhaps.

#644 brucemoxon

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 00:21



A fairly original CMS
Posted Image

mmm a bit different.


Regards,

Ian
[/quote]


That's just scary.



Bruce Moxon

#645 Jacer

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Posted 06 November 2011 - 00:37

A fairly original CMS
Posted Image

mmm a bit different.


Regards,

Ian



That's just scary.



Bruce Moxon

I'll take the wheel barrow thanks!


#646 rugolo

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 09:38

I'll take the wheel barrow thanks!

Me too :lol: , although we did race a CMS early on, but even with the extra bracing via anti intrusion bars it still flexed, we also tried Z bars.....didn't help


#647 Quixotic

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 09:43

Handling must have been....ummm.......errrr..... interesting

#648 rugolo

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 09:53

[quote name='chequer57' date='Nov 5 2011, 11:52' post='5381086']
I know for a fact that David Eyre-Walkers and Peter Wards CMS' were not a CMS chassis post 1974. They were full space frames that happened to have a CMS log books (that info is from David himself).

That could be right, actually Peter Ward built his and Davids cars and named them PWS (Peter Ward Special) getting them homologated could have been a problem and used the CMS log book?
PS Some unkind competitors referred to them as the "Piss Weak Specials"....most unkind, David was always on the pace.


#649 rugolo

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:24

Handling must have been....ummm.......errrr..... interesting

Actually it wasn't that bad, but in those days we were always looking for something extra and the CMS was not the answer, although Peter Ward and David Eyre Walker would argue differently. Like everything it became political and factions formed....you were either with Wardy (CMS) or the Ian Hill (Elfin) push, we all know the result.


#650 Quixotic

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Posted 07 November 2011 - 10:31

And the result was the correct one it seems.......