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Old Formula Vees - Group V in Australia


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#101 brucemoxon

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 20:32

Hey, you write what you know!

Adriene was keen on some space-fillers (to keep the ads apart from each other, I guess) and I had most of the info to hand.

It's not always that easy, but when it is, you take it. Look for a feature in the same mag on a Renault 5 Turbo2 coming up.


BM

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#102 Jacer

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 08:14

[QUOTE]Originally posted by chequer57
[B]Cynical me, judge these beauties for yourself

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Trowbridge Jacer V2K6 inspiration (truely ahead of it's time)

Gee, thanks for that Ian. :confused:

#103 Catalina Park

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 09:34

So Jacer, who would you recommend to restore the MJM chassis? (Somewhere in NSW) It needs a few bits bending or unbending. :D

#104 brucemoxon

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 20:01

Originally posted by Catalina Park
So Jacer, who would you recommend to restore the MJM chassis? (Somewhere in NSW) It needs a few bits bending or unbending. :D


About bloody time too!

Have you spoken to Bob Britton? Then there's Jacer himself or you could talk to someone at the Historic Vee Assoc and get their recommendations. Would be good to see this car reappear. Has it raced at all since the 70s?




Bruce Moxon

#105 Ray Bell

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Posted 29 December 2008 - 21:13

Closer to you than Britto...

Big Dave is at Orangeville. If you want his number just text me. And what about Elwyn, is he still there just over the hill from you?

#106 chequer57

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 03:25

I accessed David Blanch's pics at http://www.autopics.com.au and at least have a picture of the MJM it's the third car in the group (not the one parked).

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So how bent is Catalina's car ? and is it the one formerly owned by Jason Pye ?

Talking of restorers of cars down Goulburn way Gil Skidmore (at Crookwell) has just about finished his 1966 Rennmax Vee http://www.svcr.com.au (still asking for a pic of it though).

The other person down that way is Colin Merz (in Canberra) he too has restored his Rennmax and has been running it now for more than 10 years, a pic of his car (with wide wheels) is below.
http://www.fvee.org....z/image?index=0


[QUOTE]Originally posted by ellrosso
That No 28 "Streamliner" looks like Paul Bailly's car. Paul is the brother of multi Aust Sports Sedan Champion Kerry Bailly and used to be very dominant in Tas Vee racing in the early 80's. Bloody ugly car though I must say - not a patch on the early Elfin or Rennmax Vees.
Still if they are winning races it does'nt really matter does it?
Regards ellrosso
[/QUOTE]

Yep I've had a look at a scanned copy of the log book that the current owner has for the 1977 Trowbridge, he has Kerry Baily's old car, that car is in Randwick (Sydney's Eastern Suburbs) not doing much, sure if anyone wanted it, it could be bought for around the $1000-$1500 mark but it doesn't have the original body on it or the double roll bar though....

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jacer
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chequer57
[B]Cynical me, judge these beauties for yourself

Posted Image
Trowbridge Jacer V2K6 inspiration (truely ahead of it's time)

Gee, thanks for that Ian. :confused:
[/QUOTE]

You're welcome DC .... all tongue in cheek :p


Regards,

Ian Lee

#107 Catalina Park

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Posted 30 December 2008 - 08:41

The MJM Roadrunner Vee is not badly bent, it just needs a couple of re-adjustments. :cool:
I have owned the car since about 1983. I raced it at Oran park a couple of times but I knew it needed a lot of attention to get it competitive. I got ripped off by a couple of Vee specialists who thought that I was good for a buck. There was the gearbox without any oil in the ready to race geearbox rebuild and another bloke blocked a jet in the carby with a screw (he was making an exhaust for me) and then told me the reason it was down on power was the motor needed a rebuild! At that point I decided that Vee people were best avoided!

I used the car a bit in sprints and hillclimbs and in 1988 I fitted a 1600cc motor to mack it more fun and I even took a FTD at a Catalina lap dash! I parked the car at the end of 88 and it has not been used since. I pulled the car apart a few years back to start on a restoration but I have had other things in the way. I discovered a few little chassis problems from the previous owners and I also removed a couple of extra roll bar supports that actually prevented me from leaning back properly in the car. When I drove it my head was above the roll bar but being able to recline properly means my head would be well below the bar.

I had to do a bit of cutting to the engine cover to fit the twin carb 1600 and now I regret not keeping the off cuts! But the body is still usable.

Here are the log book photos from the early 80s...
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#108 Quixotic

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 01:03

Funky looking little car Catalina........

These early cars with the faux open mouth fronts are the cars that I like the best. It certainly looks more svelt than a Mk1 Mako.

Regards,

John

#109 chequer57

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 11:29

I'm for the more practical "Stag" nose on Des Piggot's ex Poole-Ridgeway-Wilkinson Eflin.
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This looks like being the first C of D Group V from Victoria, few more to follow this year (I hope) including Geoff Kelly's ex George Reynolds Eflin 500 (and maybe his Stag still trying to twist his arm on that one ), Paul Hambleton's Daveric and maybe the ex-Ron Cremens Avanti now in Shepparton, few other guys I have to work on in Vic including Graeme Ankers and his Eflin 500 and maybe Penny Neville and her Elfin NG EP010 and possibly arrange a bit of support to get Gary Rydings Stag underway. If they all come to fruitition I might even get Max Bonney to C of D his Elfin NG 7601 !!!!

Regards,

Ian Lee

#110 fines

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Posted 04 January 2009 - 13:21

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Why does this car have radius rods at the front, or what are they? :confused:

#111 Catalina Park

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 10:59

Originally posted by fines
Why does this car have radius rods at the front, or what are they? :confused:

Secret weapon.... The chassis was built fairly low at the front. On a normal Vee the front suspension is held to the chassis by four U-bolts, two on each side, one on the top beam and one on the bottom beam. On this car there are only two U-bolts holding the suspension to the chassis and they are on the bottom beam. To stop the suspension from falling over it has radius rods attached to the top of the shock mount to the dash bulkhead.
It gives an advantage that you can easily adjust the castor. (why would you want to?)
There was also a theory that you could tune the car to a particular direction by making one side longer than the other to twist the front suspension. My own view is that the front suspension would stay straight and the chassis would twist behind it!

#112 chequer57

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Posted 05 January 2009 - 22:29

More interesting would have been cockpit adjustable caster control.

#113 Catalina Park

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 06:46

Originally posted by chequer57
More interesting would have been cockpit adjustable caster control.

I suppose if you left the locknuts loose you could lean forward and twist the arms while on the move. :cool:

#114 275 GTB-4

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Posted 06 January 2009 - 10:42

Originally posted by chequer57
The other person down that way is Colin Merz (in Canberra) he too has restored his Rennmax and has been running it now for more than 10 years, a pic of his car (with wide wheels) is below.
http://www.fvee.org....z/image?index=0


Mike...I used to work with Col and know how to contact him if you wish to :)

#115 chequer57

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 03:58

Hi Guys,

A great project for those of into Historic Vee on ebay at the moment. After talking to few people we reckon it probably is the Kingfischer that was first owned by Andy Fischer and run by Ray Colenso in 1985.

Just to update

After managing to get hold of Andy Fischer we have discovered the car below is not the ex- Ray Colenso car, it actually the first Kingfischer that Andy built. Andy said the first car was nickel bronzed while later cars were MIG welded. Ray also remembered that on his car he had the gear change moved from the left to the right side of the car. Log book records search also confirmed that the car Andy sold to Ray is now owned by Jayne White in SA while this car below was sold to Frank Bathgate in 1981. So we have the correct log book number for this car so the log book can be re-issued.

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It's ebay location is

http://cgi.ebay.com....em=160308989696

Still does anyone know of it's recent history, CAMS have it's last owner a Rowan (Rohan?) Brown of Mornigton (VIC).

Regards,

Ian Lee

PS: Photo of a Kingfischer at Sandown
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#116 Quixotic

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 11:41

When do you think that this car was built? Looks late 70s ish

#117 chequer57

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Posted 13 January 2009 - 12:28

It is probably built around the same time as Jane White's Kingfischer Mk IV car
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and the Kingfischer RB (Rob Bennet) that's hiding in bits in WA
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1983 ish.

Regards,

Ian Lee

#118 Catalina Park

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 07:17

Here is a photo of me in the MJM at Oran Park in 1988, running as a Libre with a 1600 motor.

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#119 brucemoxon

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Posted 14 January 2009 - 10:58

Low-slung isn't it?

What's that hanging under the right-side trailing arm? It almost looks like a handbrake cable - or maybe a sway bar?

I hope you manage to get it back on track soon - good to see so many wonderful one-offs coming out of sheds.



Bruce Moxon

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#120 Catalina Park

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 09:20

It is low slung. It was a pity that the roll bar supports were stopping me from sitting right back properly.
At a lap dash at Catalina in 88 the car would bottom out through the dip on the straight. The fuel hose from the under knee fuel tank runs between the fibreglass floor and the fibreglass seat, the bottom of the seat is lower than the chassis rails. When the car bottomed out it would rub through the floor and started rubbing through the rubber fuel hose. Another run and it could have.....

The bit under the trailing arm is the transverse leaf spring. ;) It used to get knocked off if I hit a ripple strip. :lol:

#121 brucemoxon

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Posted 16 January 2009 - 10:26

Ah, of course it is.

Moxon slaps self in forehead.

Yeah, ripple strips would be the enemy. I guess it's got a very low centre of gravity, anyway.

Paul English had to cut the forward roll bar supports of the Moxon Vee and fit a rear-facing one, as he's a fair bit bigger than Dad.



Bruce Moxon

#122 Wirra

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 13:08

I discovered this site only recently - I'm as slow at things now as I was racing in 70s! I was humbled to see a few references to the Wirra Vee that I and my friend Neil Willox built way back in the early 70s. If anyone’s interested here is the car's early history. At the time we both worked with Paul Bernasconi (FV, FF & F5000) in the aircraft industry (Hawker de Havilland) and we were all mad keen on motor racing. We attended all NSW races and each year we would skip work on Friday of the Warwick Farm Tasman round, make our way to the circuit and simply walk across the track at Polo corner into the paddock - I have boxes and boxes of slides of those days. Around 1970 Paul announced that he had bought Frank Kleining's Mako Vee and we became Paul's pit crew. The ladder frame looked so simple we decided to make one ourselves. It was a fairly agricultural effort (we were engine guys, not airframes). The big mistake was made in not checking the gauge thickness of the material, subsequently it was many many kilos overweight.

To some degree the weight was offset by the power of the engine which was prepared at work (aka foreign orders) to aircraft specs. It had some super aircraft items shaped to look like VW bits! John Schroeder at the Town & Country Garage at Hornsby said it was the most powerful Vee engine (to that time) on his dyno. The chassis weight issue became more and more evident and an offer to buy the ex Gary Clare, ex Alan Nelson, Mk 1 Elfin resulted in the Wirra being sold to Wayne Edwards and his brother. Wayne unfortunate suffer spinal injuries in a surfing accident and I don't know were the car went from there, though someone here talks about owning it at one time.

Someone on another thread indicated that the car was very badly damaged and rebuilt in a week. That car was so over-designed I doubt it could ever be badly damaged. I always thought it would punch a hole through concrete. I also noted Ray Bell's disparaging comment on the style of the car… but hey, tell me anything from the 70s that is NOW seen to have style! I do believe however that it was probably one of the first Vees not to have a faux radiator intake at the front – hardly in the Colin Chapman league of innovation I grant you but we thought it looked okay. Before I got to actually run the Wirra, Alan Nelson fitted a yellow painted Wirra bodywork to his Mako but I have no details of that car. The name came from the Wirraway aircraft.

My Mk1 Elfin went to Bruce Colby and he once told me it then went to Qld and was totalled – pity, it was a great car. I ended up with the first NG Elfin in NSW (IIRC # 7606) and after two seasons that went to Peter Moore.

From there the story for me is a familiar one of marriage, mortgage, school fees, etc., leaving no time or money for fun. I’m about to retire and I have again teamed up with Neil to construct one of those 250 GTOs based on a 240Z shell - this time we are watching the weight! It has some special features and old Vee/FF driver and one time Team Lotus and Stone Bros fabricator, Mick Truman, is lending a hand. Hope to get it running at some club days. Sorry for the ramble.

Here is the Wirra
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Here is the Mk 1 Elfin (Yellow) [edit; IIRC Verona Larkin - GAS/Allget, Gerry Wittenden - Nimbus, #12 might be Mark Ferrier -i.e. Garth Tander's father-in-law?, then me and Bryan Henderson - Rennmax]
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Here is the NG Elfin - Does anyone know were this car is?
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#123 chequer57

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 20:33

Hi Peter,

From what I have your Elfin NG was 7607 (from the Elfin Register & your log book application) and it was last seen headed to Victoria with Frank Adamson, whom we assume still owns it (or know's where it is).

BTW

Originally posted by Wirra Here is the Mk 1 Elfin (Yellow)
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Who's in front and behind you in the photo. I love the Chokito livery of the car behind which I assume is a Rennmax MkI

Regards,

Ian Lee

#124 Dale Harvey

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 22:36

Wirra, If you have boxes and boxes of old slides how about you post them on the thread called
Personal Photos of Australian Motor Racing 50's to 70's.
I am sure that would be appreciated by one and all.
Dale.

#125 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 January 2009 - 23:39

Peter's getting there... good to have him on board...

The Chockito (sp?) car is Greg McCombie.

#126 Jacer

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 00:35

Peter I had the Wirra from 1980 to about 1984ish. I knew of it living in Bathurst in about 1990. I heard it had a rotary and slicks fitted around 95 and the last story I had it living somewhere around Tamworth as a Vee again. The log book for the NG is an interesting one. The Frank Adamson chassis came from John Psaltis who I thought Bought it from a Peter Houston. The interesting part was aprox 2 years ago a guy came in for a talk about historic Formula Vee who raced in the late 70's. It was Peter Moore who still has his NG that he crashed in 1979. He did the old got married, bought house, had kids thing but kept the Elfin.He said that he was a mate of Peter's and bought the NG after racing and going broke in England. Was there two NG's that you owned Peter?

#127 Wirra

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 02:28

Correct, I did own #7607. I have found a photo of the chassis plate. It was the only NG I ever owned.

Peter 'Gunna' Moore was a friend of a friend and to my knowledge did not crash but simply pulled it apart and pondered for the next 10/15 years over putting back together. The engine and a few other bits sat in my garage for 25 years which makes me think he never sold the car in that period - I recently gave the engine to Kerry Calderbank as a spare as I have no contacts for Peter Moore. I would be interested to know more dates surrounding the Frank Adamson story - doesn't sound like it's 7607.

I've tried to put some names to the other drivers in the earlier photo.

Ray... I could be wrong but I don't think Greg ever ran a Chokito vee. I think he joined 'the team' with a 23/23b and then maybe the Matich, it's all a long time ago. RCN Sept '77 has a story but it doesn't make it clear.

#128 chequer57

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 03:17

Okay, previous owners of Peter's Elfin 500 before him were Grenhalgh, Claire, O’Brien & Nelson

Don't ask me their first names.

I have the log book number but no chassis number for that car..... (Peter you may be able to help on that one).

Regards,

Ian Lee

#129 Wirra

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 03:42

I'm not too sure what you are after.

What is an Elfin 500? ... Is that a Mk1?

The Mk1 I owned previously belonged to Alan Nelson and prior to that, not sure if immediately prior, Gary Clare. I don't recall any chassis plate or even stampings. Bruce Colby owned it for quite some time after me.

#130 chequer57

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 04:19

Hi Peter,

Yep a Elfin Mk 1 is an Elfin 500, poor Bruce Colbey is not good on facts and figures, I was trying my luck with your memory.

What I am attempting to do is fill in a gap in the Elfin Register and your car is one of three early Elfin Vees that were sold by Jack Bono in NSW that which chassis is which log book is a problem.

Regards,

Ian Lee

#131 Jacer

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 04:21

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Wirra
[

Here is the Mk 1 Elfin (Yellow) [edit; IIRC Verona Larkin - GAS/Allget, Gerry Wittenden - Nimbus, #12 might be Mark Ferrier -i.e. Garth Tander's father-in-law?, then me and Bryan Henderson - Rennmax]
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With the square roll bar and body shape I'd say #12 looks like the Tripps. I've got the original log book photos of the car (which we owned at a time)with the original body and looks close. It had Rennmax mk1 body work by the time we got. We'd prefer to call Mark Belinda's dad. She raced Vee's in the early to mid 90's before Leanne started but yeah, Garth's father in law. Another Story we (my family) owned the Ferrier Mako for a short time! Ian, would the Greenhalgh's first name been Larry? The first car the folks owned in 1972 was a copy of Terry O'Neil's Rennmax mk1 car called the Greemax. Sorry, it's tragic I know this Vee-itis.

#132 Jacer

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 04:27

Looking at the Amaroo photo brings back memories. A bit of trivia. The Amaroo signs that used to be up on Windsor road had xxx km's to Amaroo park when it closed but underneath those signs were the originals with xxx miles to Amaroo..............not too sure how I know that ;)

#133 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 07:15

Hi Wirra, could you let Mick Truman know that I have his old MJM and I am looking for info. :wave:

#134 Jacer

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 08:32

Michael, got your post about repairs earlier. With work as it and all the replies I hadn't posted but if I can help in any way with your needs with the MJM let me know.
David.

#135 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 January 2009 - 08:43

Originally posted by Jacer
Michael, got your post about repairs earlier. With work as it and all the replies I hadn't posted but if I can help in any way with your needs with the MJM let me know.
David.

Thanks David, I am no hurry!

#136 chequer57

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 03:58

A racing photo of I assume Damian Ridgeway piloting the Elfin now owned by Des Piggot in it's glory days at Sandown.
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Photo is from a flickr album.
I assume that is Maurie Fordam No.13 behind him in the Phantom.

#137 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 04:45

Originally posted by chequer57
A racing photo of I assume Damian Ridgeway piloting the Elfin now owned by Des Piggot in it's glory days at Sandown.
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Photo is from a flickr album.
I assume that is Maurie Fordam No.13 behind him in the Phantom.

What is that second car? A vee with full width nose and a wing? I thought that Vee rules had been consistent since the year dot [until recently]

#138 jeremy durward

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 05:24

there is nothing in the rules saying no wings or full width noses... just not enough power to push them :)

#139 chequer57

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 05:53

The GS82 Concept's initially had ground effect tunnels ....
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... again fully legal, just in a straight line these cars were bog slow. Heard a story once McCombie took the loop at Amaroo full noise in a GS82 with the ground effect side pods (brave man). I'll have to ask Greg it was all opp lock and wheel spin when he did it.

Regards,

Ian

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#140 Jacer

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 10:05

The concepts undercar effects had the tripple advantage in the rain of a little extra downforce ( a point not lost even today with our cars), a substantial amount of weight over the front wheels with the driver 12" forward and the talents of Mr McCombie driving the two former points. If I was to be asked after 26 years vee experience who I had the most confidence in 'keeping the foot in' regardless of how out of control the car in front seemed to be it would be Greg. That's twice national champion Steven David in the photo driving the '82 before he destroyed it against the concrete wall exiting the Amaroo loop in it's first year. It lead to him and dad Bob building the Commando and winning the '85 and '90 nationals. Where is McCombie anyway, I thought he joined the group!

#141 chequer57

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 14:36

My memory of Greg's driving style through the loop was unlike everyone else, Greg's front wheels would noticebly saw back and forth while on full noise. Remember being absolutely gob smacked at a Vee School in 91 watching it.

#142 Ray Bell

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Posted 22 January 2009 - 21:07

Originally posted by Jacer
Garth Tander's father-in-law?
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It's all too much...

Where is Kim?

#143 classicvee

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 07:23

If car 12 is the Amaroo photo is the Trips, then that would be Steve Page. Steve later owned the ex-Laverick Rennmax Mk 2 (Chassis no. 3 I think?) and would love to have it back. Whether it could be prised out of Phil Lewis' garage is another story.

Steve currently owns the Craig Bradshaw Club vee. A strange Lynx/Gas style ladder chassis but with a zero-roll system with coil-overs at the rear.

Funny story about Mark Laverick. I did my OLT at Oran Park with Mark back in the days when the OLT was an all day affair with three track sessions (races!!!). After session 2 when Mark drove away from the other sedans in his Charger 770, the instructor asked what gear he was using coming out of Suttons as the revs sounded strange. "I dunno, its automatic!!

#144 Wirra

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 09:55

I nominated Mark Ferrier after reading this report of a race held at Amaroo on 7th March 1976:

"The promise of 10 laps of a repeat effort* from the Vees unfortunately came to nought on the second lap of the 2UW Vee race, for as they went over the hill, Angus and Christie had a coming together which put Engel solidly in front for an easy run to the flag. Verona Larkin inherited a distant second place, and she was under pressure from a number, including Witenden, Ferrier, Houston and Henderson. ..." (Bell.R, Racing Car News, Vol.15 No.10, April 1976, p.41, Racing Car News Pty Ltd, Redfern, Australia)

*Referring to an earlier frantic, fibreglass shattering, 5 lap race.

The report went on to describe yet another incident where I was able to snatch failure from the jaws of success. An ability I was able to retain throughout my racing career.

Unfortunately I don't have a program for that particular meeting to confirm the #12 car/driver. IIRC drivers were given a number for a whole season based on their championship finishing position the previous year, so someone would probably have that information somewhere - if it's of that much interest!

#145 classicvee

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 10:03

Wirra

That would be right as Pagey started racing the Trips around 1978 or 79. He only raced until late 80 or early 81 in the Rennmax (he can't recall the exact date).

#146 chequer57

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 10:12

Amazing how one picture creates many different stories and discussions.

I can tell you from the records we have that Mark Ferrier bought the Tripps off Gary Dubios in Dec 74 and he also changed the colour from Olive to Yellow at some stage before Nov 1977. Safe to say he owned the Tripps from Dec 74 to at least Nov 77. Interestingly Mark also Log Booked a CMS in Aug 74 with front disc and 1600cc engine .... wonder what happened to that ? I'll have to ask him one day.

Regards,

Ian Lee

#147 classicvee

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 10:34

Speaking of bigger engined vees. Bernie Haehnle used to run the Hahn Vee with 1500 (and sometimes 1600) powerplants in Formula Libre/F2 events in the 69/70 period. As did Brian Milton in his Mako. Col Merz also tried his Rennmax Mk 1 (his original 69/70 era car) in 1600 supercharged form.

Any others?

#148 Catalina Park

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Posted 24 January 2009 - 11:32

I ran the MJM with a 1600cc in hillblimbs and supersprints in 1988.

#149 Jacer

Jacer
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Posted 24 January 2009 - 23:40

Again funny what discussions bring up. I was talking to Frank Kleining the other day about the Ferriers. The Mako that we had was owned by Kim Ferrier and others like Steve Cramp. He said that he had found a mako up the coast that was owned by Kim Ferrier and had photos of the log book. Sure enough It was owned by Kim Ferrier but wasn't the Mako that we had so it would seem the she had owned two. Don't remember Mark in the Tripps log book but really didn't pay too much attention to the names in it then. The Folks bought the Tripps off Steve Page around 1980/81 with a Mk 1 Rennmax body fitted to it. Ian is the Phil Lewis Mk2 Rennmax the one that is really the ex Chris Lewis one or has he found another or is it the Re chassised Car that Bernie Cashin has that is looking for the log book.

#150 classicvee

classicvee
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Posted 25 January 2009 - 09:20

I'm sure Pagey told me he sold his Mk 2 Rennmax to Greg McCombie. Ian?