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Old Formula Vees - Group V in Australia


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#251 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 12:10

I would have thought there were too many spelling errors for that to be a Warwick Farm programme... but you live and learn...

Amazing that Engel didn't rate a mention in the race report, too.

On the subject of those Mk 1 Rennmaxes, someone should try to log the ownership of each of those cars.

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#252 Wirra

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 12:20

...Amazing that Engel didn't rate a mention in the race report, too...


But he did!

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Being my very first race I have some very vivid, though probably not accurate memories of the event. Firstly, I qualified about 20th and as the starter flinched I dropped the clutch and roared past two rows of cars, I thought I must have jumped the start so I backed off thinking I had made a total fool of myself. As the race progressed I couldn't believe how easy it was to dive down the inside of cars into Creek, again I thought I must have been doing something wrong. On about lap four as I went under the Dunlop Bridge I was lining up to do it again when suddenly Graham Engel came flying past, it scared the #### out of me. Anyway I finished 10th and ahead of Smithy (something to tell the grandkids). I was as pleased as could be until Mr Sykes refused to sign any 'P' platers because no cars slowed at an incident on the Causeway. One thing we all knew before we even started was that a 'yellow' in Vees means raise your hand and plant your foot.


Edited by Wirra, 17 July 2009 - 20:41.


#253 Ray Bell

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Posted 17 July 2009 - 12:39

Twice, what's more!

I should read what I wrote more carefully...

#254 Wirra

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:24

Starting to scan some negatives as well. I've got no idea who these cars and drivers are but it's Oran Park. More to come if people are interested.

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Could be sponsored by AirVac Brake Services, i.e. David Radcliff (sp). Did he run a Vee?


#255 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 01:49

I think that's one of the first Mk 2 Rennmaxes... didn't Britto drop the 'ears' from the later ones?

And is that the SR Vee behind it?

#256 chequer57

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 07:18

Rennmax is the Bill Christie, the ears were later dropped when it was worked out they provided more drag than the cooling, the car behind it looks awfully like a Standfast.

Edited by chequer57, 23 July 2009 - 08:27.


#257 Jacer

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 10:42

Starting to scan some negatives as well. I've got no idea who these cars and drivers are but it's Oran Park. More to come if people are interested.

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Could be sponsored by AirVac Brake Services, i.e. David Radcliff (sp). Did he run a Vee?

I remember David Radtcliff in the Alget, early 80's, Red, yellow wheels but not sure before. Ken Taylor who was the next owner of the Alget was a good mate around the time. It looks to me the car behind the Mk2 is a Standfast. Col Merz is still around in Vees after a 20 year plus sabatical. He is an engine sealer in the ACT and a great supporter of the large contingent of Canberra Vee guys.
Chequer57 has spent much of his (and the waterboard's) time coordinating a spread sheet on almost every vee made over the years, their known owners and their history. Will it ever become public Ian? Finally YES Wirra any photos are greatly appreciated.


#258 chequer57

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 11:28

Chequer57 has spent much of his (and the waterboard's) time coordinating a spread sheet on almost every vee made over the years, their known owners and their history. Will it ever become public Ian? Finally YES Wirra any photos are greatly appreciated.

DC,

The Water Board isn't that bad off because of the spreadsheet it gets updated at home !!!

The spreadsheet has evolved slowly. Lets say it was started about 15 years ago when I was first Secretary of the FVANSW, the "93/4 spreadsheet", then the second time round as Secretary 2000-3 and the handy habit of asking for previous owners on membership forms, that gave a great line of info on the car around at the time plus the FVAA the ballots in 2001 & 2003. That info gave me the first near 300 entries. The recent big additions in the last year or so are made up from the Elfin Register, the unoffical Rennmax Register (thanks to Glenn Moulds) and a couple of days a CAMS NSW Office before the records got moved to Melbourne some info on Mako's from Willo when we were trying to sort Greg Stott's car.

I'm using old programs now to track cars in Victoria that have been MIA for a while at the moment, almost all the cars in your programs in NSW programs DC I already know about thanks to you.

The publishing the spreadsheet ....... I'll ponder that

Regards,

Ian

Edited by chequer57, 23 July 2009 - 12:46.


#259 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 13:21

Originally posted by chequer57
Rennmax is the Bill Christie, the ears were later dropped when it was worked out they provided more drag than the cooling.....


Bill Christie, of course!

I was trying to think of a name of someone with the Christian name 'Chris'... but now I understand why I couldn't.

Weren't the 'ears' also a part of the body that fulfilled the minimum body width requirement? Like the trailing arm 'covers' on the Mk 1?

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#260 Jacer

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 14:09

Bill Christie, of course!

I was trying to think of a name of someone with the Christian name 'Chris'... but now I understand why I couldn't.

Weren't the 'ears' also a part of the body that fulfilled the minimum body width requirement? Like the trailing arm 'covers' on the Mk 1?

That's right Ray. 860mm or something similar at the firewall were the regs. That was probably based on the original body regs. I once sat in the original Formcar and I swear there was enough room to fit 2 seats!
After the ears were removed little 1" high fins were added at the bottom of the body at the firewall. Chris Lewis had a mk2 in NSW that had a very similar clour scheme and the same sort of tripod mirror mounts to the Christie car. Maybe that helped with the confusion.


#261 Ray Bell

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 14:28

Nahhh... I'd reckon he came a bit later... and didn't he have some red stripes on his car?

Still reckon those Mk 2 Rennmaxes should have run away with everything, they were a superior design to the NG Elfin. Remember when Dick Bailey took both the Mk 1 and his new Mk 2 to Phillip Island for the Nationals?

#262 chequer57

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Posted 23 July 2009 - 14:30

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Chris Lewis Rennmax MkII - Calder 1979

#263 Wirra

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 01:23

I remember David Radtcliff in the Alget, early 80's, Red, yellow wheels but ...


I think this might be Dennis Riley behind the wheel. Sorry again for the quality but so many of my slides have developed this blue tinge during 30+ years in the box.

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#264 Wirra

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 01:58

Nahhh... I'd reckon he came a bit later... and didn't he have some red stripes on his car?

Still reckon those Mk 2 Rennmaxes should have run away with everything, they were a superior design to the NG Elfin. Remember when Dick Bailey took both the Mk 1 and his new Mk 2 to Phillip Island for the Nationals?

That might be Dick Bailey in the Mk2, going by the #1 on the car. I think Bill had Jim Beam sponsorship on his previous car (GAS?) and simply transferred it to the Mk2 when it first appeared.

I can't go along with the 'superior design' suggestion. They certainly looked the part but having raced against many of them at the time they were very tail-happy in high speed corners and I think much of their competitiveness was down to the big dollars and detailed preparation the early owners put into them.

Arrr... the memories.
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#265 Jacer

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 03:39

That might be Dick Bailey in the Mk2, going by the #1 on the car. I think Bill had Jim Beam sponsorship on his previous car (GAS?) and simply transferred it to the Mk2 when it first appeared.

I can't go along with the 'superior design' suggestion. They certainly looked the part but having raced against many of them at the time they were very tail-happy in high speed corners and I think much of their competitiveness was down to the big dollars and detailed preparation the early owners put into them.

Arrr... the memories.
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interesting to see so many cars with sponsors.I know that Amaroo and TV helped but I think value for many was better then, cheaper entries, cost of living etc. At the end of the Amaroo TV era there was the coke money from Amaroo, $25 a win for the heat $250 for the final. Then you had whatever sponsor money you could get, mainly for entries and also in '89 Stan Coffey came along with Toledo Tool money and put up $2000 for winning a TV race if you had the designated sticker, $1000 for second and so on down to 10th. I think I did the series in '89 and made $8000 :clap: . With the cost fest that is state racing now current guys don't believe those storys. Mind you it got us on the outer with Cams heads as our prize money was bigger than Formula Fords and even the great white knight, Formula Holden. The money stopped soon after.
I'd say from my opinion Bob made beautifully crafted 'classic' cars where the NG was more straightforward. At 6'3' fitting in an NG was a heap easier than a Mk2 of which I had both at one stage. In terms of impact in the history of Vee's the NG was the most influential car made not only by the amount of genuine articles made but all the copies made in the years following. Almost every one off home built was a variation on the NG and that carried on for at least 20 years after it first came out.

Edited by Jacer, 24 July 2009 - 03:40.


#266 chequer57

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 05:15

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Time to play name that chassis

#267 kiwi a110

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:05

How cool that you guys "over the ditch " can find these cars. After 3 years of searching I have found only one of the "old" vees in NZ!

#268 Jacer

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:47

How cool that you guys "over the ditch " can find these cars. After 3 years of searching I have found only one of the "old" vees in NZ!

Hey kiwi a110 good to have a new lurker. What year did it start over there?
Now Ian. Is it a one off? the plates on the trailer in the background say WA? Steering box mounted inboard of the beam indicates at least late 80's? the current 'control' manifold indicates it has raced since 2003 though Bridgestones say maybe not run since 2004 unless it has been off the track for a while with a current spec 1200 fitted. Quite possible going by the fact it has no wiring or dash. Sub frame around engine says it has some form of sidepod arrangement.The Koni 'red' shocks and general layout of the chassis say something from around mid eighties? Without any body but with mould shape in the background Kingfisher? Not sure if there are any in WA. Daveric? More clues Mr Lee.


#269 chequer57

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 11:15

DC,

It is a one off
It is currently in WA, it travelled there "it's not a local"
The steering box has been moved.
The engine was bought don't think it has been run with it.
The body out the back is the car's third body
The car travels on two log books one of those it shares with another car.
It first raced before 1985

You want moore clues .....

Edited by chequer57, 24 July 2009 - 14:21.


#270 kiwi a110

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 08:19

The Vees I first saw were at a meeting at Baypark when Norm Beechey came over with the Chev Nova. My guess is that it would have been 66. The b&W photo I took of them in the pits is a bit hard to decipher, but I think there are 6 cars. And I am still trying to find one for myself!
The early known "makes" were Valour and McQueen.
Also photos I took of the sports cars, include the Elfin, Lotus 19BBegg, Lotus 23, Heron and Beowulf.

Edited by kiwi a110, 26 July 2009 - 08:20.


#271 Eshe

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 11:10

Now, what was the name of that hotel at Dural? And was it there in '73?


Are you referring to "The Vicar of Wakefield" hotel, now hidden behind a petrol station IIRC...

#272 Ray Bell

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 17:04

That's the den of iniquity...

Though I should admit that I went there once, accompanied by the late Mike Lance, the late Barry Allen, Brian Rawlings and a couple of others.

Shot some ducks.

#273 kiwi a110

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 20:36

A little more research and a huge chunk of luck!
The vees first appeared here in NZ around March 67, and the first proper race was Baypark 30/12/67 (the meeting I mentioned above but date now verified). There were 7 cars, mostly one offs.
I have been speaking with one of those original drivers who has "suitcases" full of documentation relating to his period in them. I have yet to see this but anxious!

#274 chequer57

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Posted 26 July 2009 - 23:48

A little more research and a huge chunk of luck!
The vees first appeared here in NZ around March 67, and the first proper race was Baypark 30/12/67 (the meeting I mentioned above but date now verified). There were 7 cars, mostly one offs.
I have been speaking with one of those original drivers who has "suitcases" full of documentation relating to his period in them. I have yet to see this but anxious!

Hi, I suggest you follow up the lead on

http://forums.aussie...age=2#pid726069

#275 Bowinracer

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Posted 29 July 2009 - 15:08

Rennmax is the Bill Christie, the ears were later dropped when it was worked out they provided more drag than the cooling, the car behind it looks awfully like a Standfast.


I was talking one day to Bob Britton about the ears and his explanation for dropping the ears was he decided to use a surfboard type fin underneath the trailing arms to obtain the correct body width as per the regs at the time and clean the car up aerodynamically in the process. Clever man.

#276 LouiseRoy

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 01:15

Hi Ian,

Thanks for finding & posting (last year) the pic of me with my Nimbus Formula Vee in about 1979. I discovered it while searching Google Images. I have some more Vee pics which I'll put on Photobucket soon - Louise
Formula Vee
Photobucket Slideshow

Edited by LouiseRoy, 19 August 2009 - 01:28.


#277 chequer57

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Posted 24 August 2009 - 14:11

Hi Ian,

Thanks for finding & posting (last year) the pic of me with my Nimbus Formula Vee in about 1979. I discovered it while searching Google Images. I have some more Vee pics which I'll put on Photobucket soon - Louise
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Lousie, Poor little thing had a fire at Cootha last month when the discharge on the fuel pump came out, thankfully car and driver David Harrison are all okay.

Regards,

Ian

Edited by chequer57, 24 August 2009 - 14:13.


#278 moxonvee

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 12:01

Hi all,

Firstly thanks to Ian for starting this discussion group, I love hearing about the early days of Vee and the history of the cars.

Whilst I have my CofD, the research never stops, as a result of this forum, I now have a copy of the grid sheet when my car ran at Warwick Farm in 74.

Thanks to you all, and if you are ever at an Historic Meeting in NSW, come visit the drivers, we are all eager to not only keep the cars alive but also the History that goes with it.

Regards

Paul English



#279 chequer57

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Posted 25 August 2009 - 14:03

More cars and owners turning up

1975 Venom owned by Gary Suter ..... in it's 1991 colour scheme (I suspect).
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That makes 4 of the 13 or so built by Helmut Ricker pre 85 .... the hunt is still on.

UPDATE 31-AUG-09

Helmut sent me the full list today via fax of the original owners + a few others.


Edited by chequer57, 31 August 2009 - 06:45.


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#280 Daren W

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:15

Hi some pics of Concept formula V at the Gladesville factory and at Amaroo Park (thanks for the info Catalina Park) Regards Daren

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Gregs GS83

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Gregs GS83

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Thats Greg with hair ! taking a photo on his belly of his GS83

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Gregs GS83

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Making the updated body for FVG88

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Making the updated body for FVG88

Edited by Daren W, 27 August 2009 - 08:58.


#281 chequer57

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:29

Nice, top 3 are the GS83 and the bottom two FVG88

Edited by chequer57, 27 August 2009 - 08:35.


#282 Catalina Park

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 08:38

Looks like Amaroo not Oran Park.  ;)

#283 Jacer

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Posted 27 August 2009 - 21:41

Hi some pics of Concept formula V at the Gladesville factory and at Amaroo Park (thanks for the info Catalina Park) Regards Daren

Gee Amaroo dummy grid brings back memories. Steve David car 3 with dad Bob David along side, Old Len Taylor leaning against the fence behind car 3, nose of car 33 I think Peter Kleinig, top of roll bar in foreground would be Norm Johnstone. 1987 or '88

#284 Des Piggott

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 04:54

Hi all,

Firstly thanks to Ian for starting this discussion group, I love hearing about the early days of Vee and the history of the cars.

Whilst I have my CofD, the research never stops, as a result of this forum, I now have a copy of the grid sheet when my car ran at Warwick Farm in 74.

Thanks to you all, and if you are ever at an Historic Meeting in NSW, come visit the drivers, we are all eager to not only keep the cars alive but also the History that goes with it.

Regards

Paul English


I have to agree with you Paul that Ian's thread has been great reading and increased my rather limited knowledge of the FV scene. I should also thank you for helping me with details of a 1987 Nationals entry sheet you emailed me in 2007 which sent me on my way discovering the history of my car, COD and Historic Log Book arrived last month. I was given the lead on the Elfin by Bargs who was aware that Garry Roger's engine builder Mike Excell has an old vee in parts under his house. When I purchased the car I found out it belonged at one time to a Mal Wilkinson, you then supplied the Nationals form which showed it had been owned by Keith Poole, Leo Anthony ( Fusinato ), Damian Ridgway and Mal. Further investigation revealed it had been raced in 1970 / 71 by Ian Hill, had another two owners, Tom Jones and Michael LeMaire and was also leased to Warwick Manderson. Leo Anthony ( dropped his surname Fusinato while racing ) held the lap record at Sandown for a ten year period until the circut was revised and as such his record was never broken. I've spoken to most of the guys over the past two years and both Leo and Damian have signed the car for me. Look forward to finding more and more detail as time passes.

Des

#285 Wirra

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:20

... I found out it belonged at one time to a Mal Wilkinson, you then supplied the Nationals form which showed it had been owned by Keith Poole, ...


If that was the very first NG which Keith Poole first ran at the Vee Nationals (?) at Winton in '76 then I might have a photo... repeat, might. Here is one I have from that meeting with, I think, Dave Turnbull leading.

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#286 Des Piggott

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 07:33

If that was the very first NG which Keith Poole first ran at the Vee Nationals (?) at Winton in '76 then I might have a photo... repeat, might. Here is one I have from that meeting with, I think, Dave Turnbull leading.

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Thanks Wirra. The car is actually the last of the type 500s, built by Keith while employed at Elfin in 1970. By 1976 it was owned by Damian Ridgway and had a Stag nose cone fitted to it, it car number 16 in your photo, another photo for the collection.

Cheers
Des :clap:

#287 Wirra

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 08:42

Here you go then ... next lap!

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... Further investigation revealed it had been raced in 1970 / 71 by ...


Realise now it couldn't have been the NG. Sorry, I get my '60s and '70s a bit mixed these days!

Edited by Wirra, 29 August 2009 - 00:25.


#288 brucemoxon

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 08:59

Gee Amaroo dummy grid brings back memories. Steve David car 3 with dad Bob David along side, Old Len Taylor leaning against the fence behind car 3, nose of car 33 I think Peter Kleinig, top of roll bar in foreground would be Norm Johnstone. 1987 or '88



And those first few pictures - I guess the Gladesville workshop was at Damon Beck's yard, going by all those Peugeots.

Hi Paul! :wave:



Bruce Moxon

#289 Jacer

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:28

Thanks Wirra. The car is actually the last of the type 500s, built by Keith while employed at Elfin in 1970. By 1976 it was owned by Damian Ridgway and had a Stag nose cone fitted to it, it car number 16 in your photo, another photo for the collection.

Cheers
Des :clap:

Des Ian has a photo of me in the Wirra 'the car' with Mal driving your car behind coming out of the esses at Oran Park in 1983 ( I think). If you get a copy off Ian you can add that to the collection also.

#290 Catalina Park

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 09:43

And those first few pictures - I guess the Gladesville workshop was at Damon Beck's yard, going by all those Peugeots.

Hi Paul! :wave:



Bruce Moxon

I was thinking the same thing.

Should I tell the story about the time I got Norm Johnstone arrested? Nah, better not. :smoking:


#291 Des Piggott

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 10:08

Des Ian has a photo of me in the Wirra 'the car' with Mal driving your car behind coming out of the esses at Oran Park in 1983 ( I think). If you get a copy off Ian you can add that to the collection also.

I'm hoping Wirra will give me the whole race lap by lap? Thanks Jacer I'm sure Ian won't be far away and with some luck will post the photo. It will be interesting to see how far this thread runs and how many cars Ian can track down.
Cheers

#292 chequer57

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:19

The problem isn't cars it's finding drivers/restorers and owners with period car moving to do them up and obtaining C of D's !!!

If I could just get the price down of DC's old car.....

We have one person in NSW looking for a turn key Historic in next month (he drove Luke Warner's Mako recently and decided the Historic Vee are for him).

Looks very likely Eamonn's car is sold to an Ex Vee guy returning from Sports Sedans.


Regards,

Ian Lee

PS: Bit of a social get together at Phil Lewis's place this weekend while we a few cars due to debut in September at Wakefield get target scrutineered by Noel Gibson.
PPS: DC I'll find the scans of the Wirra and Elfin when I get to work on Monday as all your stuff is there on my work computer next to the scanner, BTW I bought a new folder and few albums for you too.

Edited by chequer57, 28 August 2009 - 12:40.


#293 Jacer

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:31

The problem isn't cars it's finding drivers/restorers and owners with period car moving to do them up and obtaining C of D's !!!

If I could just get the price down of DC's old car.....

We have one person in NSW looking for a turn key Historic in next month (he drove Luke Warner's Mako recently and decided the Historic Vee are for him).

Looks very likely Eamonn's car is sold to an Ex Vee guy returning from Sports Sedans.


Regards,

Ian Lee

PS: Bit of a social get together at Phil Lewis's place this weekend while we a few cars due to debut in September at Wakefield get target scrutineered by Noel Gibson.
PPS: DC I'll find the scans of the Wirra and Elfin when I get to work on Monday as all you stuff is there on my work computer next to the scanner.

Ian I gave Scott an offer which he accepted but I was second in line to someone in Victoria how was supposed to get back to him by August. I haven't heard anything back so... it's up to Scott or it's sold!

#294 chequer57

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 12:42

August is over on Tuesday !!!! (my wife's birthday too.)

Edited by chequer57, 28 August 2009 - 12:44.


#295 Ray Bell

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 20:45

Original posts from brucemoxon and catalina park
And those first few pictures - I guess the Gladesville workshop was at Damon Beck's yard, going by all those Peugeots.


And I guess you both know they're too new and shiny for it to be my place...

Must give Damon another call soon.

On the subject of C of Ds, has CAMS dropped the 'super tax' from them yet, or do they still cost an arm and a leg?

#296 brucemoxon

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 21:42

And I guess you both know they're too new and shiny for it to be my place...

Must give Damon another call soon.

On the subject of C of Ds, has CAMS dropped the 'super tax' from them yet, or do they still cost an arm and a leg?



I believe they still cost a couple of limbs (it could be two legs or two arms, one can never be sure), after you've done all the work. I suppose they do have the ink for the rubber stamp to pay for...

Speaking of Peugeots - going out to look at one this morning - newer again than those in the pictures.



BM

#297 Jacer

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Posted 28 August 2009 - 22:39

I was thinking the same thing.

Should I tell the story about the time I got Norm Johnstone arrested? Nah, better not. :smoking:

Normie arrested!!! can't even imagine how you did that.

#298 Catalina Park

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 03:10

Normie arrested!!! can't even imagine how you did that.

Not really arrested, just a thorough interrogation. :lol:

#299 chequer57

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 04:19

On the subject of C of Ds, has CAMS dropped the 'super tax' from them yet, or do they still cost an arm and a leg?

Nope now $660 + extra if you want a permit to race before the C of D comes through.

CAMS recently issued the 1000th Historic Log Book so do the maths if you want ...... then again a control manifold to run a 1200 in the main game is $450 (if you can get one).

Talk is log book searches are going to have a price on them too once all the records are located at Fortress Melbourne.

PS: It's sad to hear Frank Gardener passed away today..... great race driver and doer in motorsport.
http://www.cams.com....k-Gardner.aspx

Thread re Frank Gardener here (http://forums.autosp...howtopic=114115)

Edited by chequer57, 29 August 2009 - 04:33.


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#300 Catalina Park

Catalina Park
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  • 5,709 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 29 August 2009 - 04:25

Nope now $660 + extra if you want a permit to race before the C of D comes through.

CAMS recently issued the 1000th Historic Log Book so do the maths if you want ...... then again a control manifold to run a 1200 in the main game is $450 (if you can get one).

Talk is log book searches are going to have a price on them too once all the records are located at Fortress Melbourne.

Why do people put up with this crap?
The MJM will stay in the shed for a while longer.