162 replies to this topic

[silicanza]

What a great photo thread! And yes, the green thing is a puzzle...I present some clumsy Photoshopping.

The alloy bodied car #45 is indeed the Gemini Mk 3 Constructed by the Chequered Flag in mid 1960 and first raced on August 1st 1960 at John Davy Trophy, Brands Hatch by John Whitmore. The Mk 3 of which this was the only car built of this model, was raced through the remainder of 1960 by either Tony Maggs or Geoff Duke and finally at Boxing Day Brands Hatch meeting with Peter Ashdown behind the wheel.

The Mk3 was then shipped to the USA and this was the car Charlie Kolb won the Sebring Formula Junior race on March 24 1961 and which he continued to use in FJ races through 1961 and early 1962.

The Mk 3 has recently "reappeared" remarkably complete, having been racing in Florida since 1983 as an Autosprint car. A book on the Graeme Warner and the Chequered Flag is being written and with this and the reappearence of the car, we would like to identify the event. Interestingly, none of the recorded UK FJ race meetings we have found to date, list the race number 45 for the Gemini Mk3.

Can anybody identify the event please?

[David McKinney]

I can't find any 1960 rear-engined Gemini entries for No.45 in the Formula 1 Register's black book

There are a couple in 1961 for Max Williams, but he's less likely to be parked alongside Graham Warner's Elite, and in neither case is there any No.53

It's a mystery

[larryd]

What a great photo thread! And yes, the green thing is a puzzle...I present some clumsy Photoshopping.

Daniel Richmond's Venom, perhaps?

[hatrat]

Would any of the surrounding features - white picket fence, pit building without sides etc, give any clue as to what track the photo was taken at? It is a Mk3 Gemini (as opposed to a Mk3A) so the photo would most likely be in 1960.

[Bjorn Kjer]

Post 126 , on the left a bit of Team Lotus old Commer van

Post 151 Vanguard - racer no. 53 - Landrover = Emery(son)

Edited by Bjørn Kjer, 13 July 2011 - 05:01.

[David McKinney]

It is a Mk3 Gemini (as opposed to a Mk3A)

I wondered if it might have been a trick of the camera angle...

Edited by David McKinney, 12 July 2011 - 22:03.

[bradbury west]

Daniel Richmond's Venom, perhaps?

Allowing for what looks like white paint at the top of the cantilever jack handle obscuring part of the roundel, is no 53 really no 63?
Roger Lund

[hatrat]

David - I'm pretty sure in is a Mk3 - the MK3A has a straight line join between the upper and lower side panels where the Mk3 is angled. Additionally the Mk3 has the fuel cap in the side panel while the Mk3A has a central one above the driver's knees.

Roger - Well spotted. I think you are right and the number on the Venom? is 63. The number 63 also ties up with the paddock markers if you count along from marker 61. Maybe the Gemini was meant to be #62?

I have E Fenning entering two Lotus 18 cars (#62 and #63) at Oulton Park on 24 September 1960 and a note to say one of the Lotus 18s didn't turn up and it was replaced by the Venom. Maybe this ties in but my records show no Gemini entered.

Still trying to work out what track it could be with the picket fence and pit building.

Edited by hatrat, 13 July 2011 - 00:39.

[bradbury west]

From a different angle I have looked through the period Autosports for results for warner in LOV1, where there was also an FJ race. A long shot and probably wrong but it may be here;
http://www.formula2.net/FJ60_GB62.htm
Warner won the GT race. Maggs is listed in a Gemini mk3, no. 62. The 63 car is listed as the Saxon DKW. I have not found a Saxon picture in my files - it is there somewhere- but the only Venom shot which I have in period, Cowdray's book, shows it with spoked/ribbed alloy wheels. Perhaps the high single air intake on the green car confirms a 2 stroke engine, as would the apparent megaphone exhaust emerging under the no. 3 of the 63?

Long shot bit.... perhaps the Flag brought a second car, perhaps a new one, possibly for Parkes or Whitmore, hoping for an entry but were not admitted due to a full grid. The lowest no. in the sequence for that race was 46 so perhaps they were allocated no.45 in case they could run.

As I said, a long shot with lots of "possiblies and perhapses." Anyway, it was useful looking through the magazines for the second half of 1960
Roger Lund

edit;
Another longshot;
At the Snetterton race the previous weekend Maggs had won in car 54. Perhaps someone just removed the nos. possibly to polish the car, and restuck/transposed them prior to Brands as somewhere to put them.
http://www.formula2.net/FJ60_GB61.htm
Dafter things have been known to happen..............
RL

Edited by bradbury west, 13 July 2011 - 10:17.

[hatrat]

I think you could be right Roger. Firstly, on reflection I don't think #63 is the Venom as it looks a bit different to the car in the photo - see Cowdray's FJ book (page 106) and Hodges A-Z at page 259. It is therefore most likely to be the Saxon DKW which is listed as car #63 and appears to be in paddock spot 63.

It ties in with the paddock numbered spaces that the Gemini would be car #62. At that stage (16 October 1960), the only rear engine Gemini extant was the one and only Mk3 - the Mk3A car did not appear until the Boxing Day meeting. On that basis the Gemini must have turned up as #45 but would have needed to number changed to #62 in order to race. It seems a little strange as the prior entry for the Gemini was at Snetterton on 9 October when it ran with #54, so I don't know why they would have re-numbered it 45 in the intervening week.

Edit : I see your edit happened while I was writing my response - but we both got onto the previous race at Snetterton - so it must have some degree of credibility

Edited by hatrat, 13 July 2011 - 10:31.

[HiRich]

From a different angle I have looked through the period Autosports for results for warner in LOV1, where there was also an FJ race. A long shot and probably wrong but it may be here;
http://www.formula2.net/FJ60_GB62.htm
Warner won the GT race. Maggs is listed in a Gemini mk3, no. 62. The 63 car is listed as the Saxon DKW. I have not found a Saxon picture in my files - it is there somewhere- but the only Venom shot which I have in period, Cowdray's book, shows it with spoked/ribbed alloy wheels. Perhaps the high single air intake on the green car confirms a 2 stroke engine, as would the apparent megaphone exhaust emerging under the no. 3 of the 63?

Long shot bit.... perhaps the Flag brought a second car, perhaps a new one, possibly for Parkes or Whitmore, hoping for an entry but were not admitted due to a full grid. The lowest no. in the sequence for that race was 46 so perhaps they were allocated no.45 in case they could run.

As I said, a long shot with lots of "possiblies and perhapses." Anyway, it was useful looking through the magazines for the second half of 1960
Roger Lund

edit;
Another longshot;
At the Snetterton race the previous weekend Maggs had won in car 54. Perhaps someone just removed the nos. possibly to polish the car, and restuck/transposed them prior to Brands as somewhere to put them.
http://www.formula2.net/FJ60_GB61.htm
Dafter things have been known to happen..............
RL

As David (McKinney) correctly pointed out all the way back, Car 63 is definitely the Saxon FJ in its 1960 style.
So Brands Hatch, 16/10/1960 seems a certainty - the only issue being (as you suggest) why Tony Maggs' Gemini bears the number 45 when it was using 54 the week before at Snett.
Given that one set of numbers look properly die-cut, and one set of electrical tape, I think you're on the money

[bradbury west]

As David (McKinney) correctly pointed out all the way back, Car 63 is definitely the Saxon FJ in its 1960 style.

I was not trying to re-invent the proverbial wheel, simply to counter the suggestion made that it might have been Daniel Richmond's Venom Austin.
RL

[bradbury west]

Bump. Just for the pictures and the factual stories for new members who might not be aware of them.
Roger Lund