143 replies to this topic

[Spunout]

Hi!

As we know, tarmac run-offs have caused lots of issues recently. The original purpose was to slow down impact speeds and secondarily for situations where it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to leave the track, eg to prevent bad crash. They weren´t designed as "backdoor" for situations where nature of track meant lack of space, less grippy line, etc. They weren´t designed as #2 route that could potentially be faster than race track itself.

My point is this - if you have Driver leaving the track voluntarily, there can be only one reason: using the run-off area was beneficial in comparison to making the corner in proper way. If this was the only way to prevent crash, fine. If not, something is wrong. Yes it is the Driver´s task to prove no advantage was gained - in comparison to staying on track, in given situation - but in reality, there will always be gray area. Not to mention, FIA interpretations haven´t been 100% consistent in the past. Several times Driver was allowed to gain by using the run-off area, or "cut his losses"...which is equally wrong.

What I want is race track where going off loses heaps of times - always. Something similar to gravel traps; no Drivers leaving the track voluntarily. But I cannot figure out perfect solution, apart from painting run-off areas with superglue. If gravel traps/concrete walls aren´t coming back, what are the options? How to keep run-off areas effective while making sure NOBODY, in no circumstances, uses them unless it is absolutely necessary?

I need your opinion, folks; any ideas are welcome.

Cheers,

Spun



(reminder: what ISN´T welcome is discussion about specific cases; there are separate threads for that. So please...please...keep Hamilton/Räikkönen discussion there, ok? Thanks)

[Clatter]

Originally posted by Spunout
Hi!

As we know, tarmac run-offs have caused lots of issues recently. The original purpose was to slow down impact speeds and secondarily for situations where it was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY to leave the track, eg to prevent bad crash. They weren´t designed as "backdoor" for situations where nature of track meant lack of space, less grippy line, etc. They weren´t designed as #2 route that could potentially be faster than race track itself.

My point is this - if you have Driver leaving the track voluntarily, there can be only one reason: using the run-off area was beneficial in comparison to making the corner in proper way. If this was the only way to prevent crash, fine. If not, something is wrong. Yes it is the Driver´s task to prove no advantage was gained - in comparison to staying on track, in given situation - but in reality, there will always be gray area. Not to mention, FIA interpretations haven´t been 100% consistent in the past. Several times Driver was allowed to gain by using the run-off area, or "cut his losses"...which is equally wrong.

What I want is race track where going off loses heaps of times - always. Something similar to gravel traps; no Drivers leaving the track voluntarily. But I cannot figure out perfect solution, apart from painting run-off areas with superglue. If gravel traps/concrete walls aren´t coming back, what are the options? How to keep run-off areas effective while making sure NOBODY, in no circumstances, uses them unless it is absolutely necessary?

I need your opinion, folks; any ideas are welcome.

Cheers,

Spun



(reminder: what ISN´T welcome is discussion about specific cases; there are separate threads for that. So please...please...keep Hamilton/Räikkönen discussion there, ok? Thanks)

How about an exit lane that has to be used if a driver runs wide, only has to be a painted lane. It can be made twisty/difficult to negotiate so that an appropriate amount of time would be lost.

[The Lonely]

they should have gravel strips at the edges to make sure that drivers loose time.

[JForce]

Originally posted by Clatter


How about an exit lane that has to be used if a driver runs wide, only has to be a painted lane. It can be made twisty/difficult to negotiate so that an appropriate amount of time would be lost.

Problem with that is that only high curbs or walls could accomplish that.

It really comes down to the surface. You need something that's slippery as hell, but that of course defeats the whole purpose.

I don't have the answer, but like the thread and agree with the gist of your post Spunout.

[howardt]

How about this :
If all 4 wheels leave the circuit, then you automatically get a drive-through penalty.

This may encourage "pushing" other drivers off, so it could be refined to :

If all 4 wheels leave the circuit, then that sector time must be compared with the average of your last 5 times for same sector* - if any time advantage is gained, or if any track position advantage is gained, then a drive through penalty.

* a further refinement would be to compare sector times with the average of the guy 1 position ahead & 1 position behind. Thus on a suddenly-wet track such as we saw on Sunday it's not a comparison with dry sector-times.

[Mika Mika]

cardboard boxes like in a 70s american police show, will look awesome as the car bursts through them

[JForce]

Originally posted by howardt
How about this :
If all 4 wheels leave the circuit, then you automatically get a drive-through penalty.

This may encourage "pushing" other drivers off, so it could be refined to :

If all 4 wheels leave the circuit, then that sector time must be compared with the average of your last 5 times for same sector* - if any time advantage is gained, or if any track position advantage is gained, then a drive through penalty.

* a further refinement would be to compare sector times with the average of the guy 1 position ahead & 1 position behind. Thus on a suddenly-wet track such as we saw on Sunday it's not a comparison with dry sector-times.

Too complicated, too hard.

[krapmeister]

cardboard boxes like in a 70s american police show, will look awesome as the car bursts through them

Perhaps 5m/10m strip of wet artificial grass all the way along the edge of the racing surface?

[as65p]

I wrote this in the other thread in reply to Mox not quite serious suggestion:

Originally posted by Mox

In Geoff Crammond's good old Microprose game, cutting a corner put you on a rev limit for a certain amount of time. Modern GPS systems and/or RFID should be able to do the same with real cars. That would REALLY create a stir.

my reply

I'm sure someone will spot practical faults in that suggestion but right now I think it sounds like a rather brilliant idea!

Don't know if the systems are precise enough for this yet, but if so, just create a virtual "GPS"-track with half a meter leeway either side. A driver who oversteppes it with all 4 wheels get's a 16.000 rev limit for 5 to 10 secs. Why not?

As I said, have no idea if current GPS technology is capable and accurate enough for that right now, though.

[howardt]

OK, then leave it simple as we have now : "You must not gain an advantage by cutting a corner".
That way we can leave it up to Uncle Max to decide when and how much he wants to punish the Mclarens.

[Clatter]

Originally posted by as65p
I wrote this in the other thread in reply to Mox not quite serious suggestion:

[I]

my reply



As I said, have no idea if current GPS technology is capable and accurate enough for that right now, though.

I could see that being quite dangerous as cars close behind could be caught out by a car ahead suddenly slowing/not accelerating as expected.

[Pikku Pakkanen]

Could the run-off areas be tarmac as they are but 10 cm lower? Going there would not be dangerous but coming back would be tricky.

[krapmeister]

I wrote this in the other thread in reply to Mox not quite serious suggestion:


quote:

my reply

quote:

As I said, have no idea if current GPS technology is capable and accurate enough for that right now, though.

Great Idea!

Wouldn't need GPS though - just sensors/strip along the track edge and receivers/sensors on all 4 corners (ie. on front and rear suspension just inside the wheels). When all 4 wheels cross the track edge then it is detected and emgine revs are limited for a predetermined amount of time - say 1500 revs lower for 5 secs.

Sensors don't need to be on track edge if that is too extreme - they could be set back say 2.5ms from the track edge so there is some margin for error.

With the spec ECU this would be a possibility I would have thought.

EDIT: if safety is an issue, the sensors could be used to detect when cars have crossed 'the line' and incidents tallied up. At the end of the race each car that has infringed has 5/10/15secs added to their time. Official Timing could incorporate this on the go and give real positions as the race is in progress with each cars infringements displayed. Drivers/Teams would also know as the race is in progress where they are on track, how much time will be added and where they are 'actually' positioned in the race and can make decisions according to that.

I think this is quite feasible.

[undersquare]

As long as it's the same for all the drivers, all the time, I don't have a problem with it. Let it be part of the track, but the track should be designed so that the runoff is a slower way round.

I like having fewer retirements from cars stuck in the gravel, let them lose some time but keep racing, we can watch them trying to catch up.

We have far too many rules in F1, let the circuit design be good and if a driver can spot an advantage, well done.

Chicanes obviously not included

[kar]

To me the answer to this is pretty simple actually and they already have the solution. At the paul ricard httt they have that funny blue stripped run off stuff. It's a special kind of super adhesive surface material and it helps arrest the car's speed if they go off-line.

Blue is pretty sticky, red is super sticky. The side effect of this material is the red stuff canes the tyres. I think on problematic chicanes this material should be used. If you want to cut the chicane, fine, but you're going to wreck your tyres in the process.

It actually increases safety + it's provides a high disincentive to just use the run off rather than pay a price by staying on circuit.

This could be done at other circuits where run-off is used too liberally by the drivers.

[Spunout]

Originally posted by howardt
That way we can leave it up to Uncle Max to decide ...

Ze punishment by Max personally would certainly solve the problem

Interesting ideas so far, keep them coming! What I really want is simple solution that doesn´t require complex interpretation or state-of-the-art gadgets that could go wrong. The escape rote is used at Monza, IIRC.

[EvilPhil II]

How about replacing it with Grass and Gravel?

[Spunout]

kar´s idea sounds great. We need something comparable to Superglue

[as65p]

Originally posted by Clatter


I could see that being quite dangerous as cars close behind could be caught out by a car ahead suddenly slowing/not accelerating as expected.

That's a point, but the relation rpm limit / amount of time could be tuned, so that the speed loss is enough to constitute a penalty without being dangerous to others. How about 17500 rpm for 60 seconds or something?

I especially like the idea that neither drive-throughs or time penalties would be involved, all the action would be on track.

[Pikku Pakkanen]

Originally posted by as65p


That's a point, but the relation rpm limit / amount of time could be tuned, so that the speed loss is enough to constitute a penalty without being dangerous to others. How about 17500 rpm for 60 seconds or something?

I especially like the idea that neither drive-throughs or time penalties would be involved, all the action would be on track.

Can you imagine the conversation here if the FIA could all the time tamper the engines during races?

[as65p]

Originally posted by kar
To me the answer to this is pretty simple actually and they already have the solution. At the paul ricard httt they have that funny blue stripped run off stuff. It's a special kind of super adhesive surface material and it helps arrest the car's speed if they go off-line.

Blue is pretty sticky, red is super sticky. The side effect of this material is the red stuff canes the tyres. I think on problematic chicanes this material should be used. If you want to cut the chicane, fine, but you're going to wreck your tyres in the process.

It actually increases safety + it's provides a high disincentive to just use the run off rather than pay a price by staying on circuit.

This could be done at other circuits where run-off is used too liberally by the drivers.

Sounds good except for the tyre wrecking stuff - define "wrecking"

If it explodes in the next highspeed section, no good.

[krapmeister]

So there goes my other idea for a line of tacks along the edge of the track...

[Garagiste]

There are threads on this in the archive (blimey, is it really five years ago we were discussing this!?)
I have long advocated a row of bendy bollards lining the track that would yield and then spring back as a car passes over / through them. Make them just tough enough to likely damage a front wing, but not so bad they will trash the floor of a car, and there you go - if you use the runoff as track you risk ruining your race.
Of course it will mean that you won't be able to use it for avoiding a spinner for example, but then you couldn't do that with a gravel trap either.
baddog made a great diagram of this, but it seems to have vanished into the internet ether.

[as65p]

Originally posted by Pikku Pakkanen


Can you imagine the conversation here if the FIA could all the time tamper the engines during races?

You think it would be worse than what we have now?;)

[Atreiu]

Whenever the tarmac run-off is directly connected to the track, it will be used as part of the track.


The alternative is to add a strip of grass between the track and the run-off, perhaps some 3 metres wide or more. The grass patch would ensure that drivers do not purposefully abuse the run-off, due to how it would have no grip in either dry or wet conditions and slow them down. At the same time it would prevent abuse, it would allow drivers to risk overtaking without the fear of an iminent DNF if they missed the corner for any reason, for example: being too late on the brakes or being pushed off by his opponent. One other purpose it'd serve is to allow drivers to commit small or silly mistakes and not be wiped out of the race for it. For example, it was a mess at La Source on the first lap of Sunday's race, many cars took the tarmac to make the corner. It would have been unfair and a huge let down if there was a gravel trap that simply caught all of them and ended their races right there. A strip of grass wouldn't have ended anyone's race, but would have prevented anyone from going there simply because it was quicker than staying on the track in those circumstances.


As you see, the solution sometimes is simpler than most imagine and does not require any acrobatics, technological gadjets or rule bending at all.

[krapmeister]

Not bad but would really look very ugly - can you imagine what Spa would look like with bollards all along its edge?

EDIT: Atreiu - if its artificial turf, it would probably be cheaper and easier to install than real grass and give the same effect.

[Pikku Pakkanen]

Originally posted by Spunout
kar´s idea sounds great. We need something comparable to Superglue

I was joking earlier this year that the run-offs should be full of nails and broken glass.

Super adhesive materials could work with cars, but what about bikers? They need something to slide on.

[as65p]

Originally posted by Garagiste
There are threads on this in the archive (blimey, is it really five years ago we were discussing this!?)
I have long advocated a row of bendy bollards lining the track that would yield and then spring back as a car passes over / through them. Make them just tough enough to likely damage a front wing, but not so bad they will trash the floor of a car, and there you go - if you use the runoff as track you risk ruining your race.
Of course it will mean that you won't be able to use it for avoiding a spinner for example, but then you couldn't do that with a gravel trap either.
baddog made a great diagram of this, but it seems to have vanished into the internet ether.

I think anything which is designed to damage parts of the car is hard to argue for for safety reasons. Imagine a life-threatening accident which involves a car previously damaged by your bollards...

[glorius&victorius]

I miss the good old thick gravel traps... the ones that really make the cars stuck

[Tenmantaylor]

They serve a purpose in reducing impact speeds but they are very contentious IMO with regards to racing.

Keeping the car on the track should be of paramount importance but at the same time from a spectators point of view its good to see more cars finishing the race.

Its clear to me that they now are being taken advantage of by F1 drivers. Lewis, Raikkonen and many others at Spa 08 benefitted from them (had lewis gone over grass there he wouldnt had the option of letting kimi back past, his dirty damp tyres would have done it for him).

There have been many other incidents like these over the last few years:

- T1 runoff at hockenheim routinely turns into a part of the track, especially lap one of race.
- Kubica and Massas battle at Fuji was only possible by running completely off the track.
- Shumachers chicane cut at Hung 06.

In conclusion I think they should be alot more selective in use of these types of runoffs or change their composition or introduce a lower grip initial area such as grasscrete to deter regular use of them without compromising safety.

[undersquare]

Originally posted by Spunout

The escape rote is used at Monza, IIRC.

I think there's a big difference between runoff on the outside of corners and chicanes. Pouhon, with a strip of 'grass' and then tarmac is fine I think.

For chicanes a transponder in the escape road that triggers the pitlane limiter might work, too. Generally there's a high kerb now around the apex with an alternative safe route through, like Spa, that safe route could have the transponder in it. With the SECU it wouldn't be hard to have all the cars trip a 5-second (say) period on the limiter when they go over the transponder.

[Garagiste]

I see where you're coming from as65p, but the point is that you shouldn't be there. I'm more thinking that they should be designed to help arrest the speed of a car that arrives in them - a safety feature in itself. Front wings are that delicate that they would likely sustain some damage, they must be lost at an average of 2-3 per race as it is anyway. (That is not a cue for some quip about Rosberg).

[Atreiu]

Originally posted by krapmeister
Not bad but would really look very ugly - can you imagine what Spa would look like with bollards all along its edge?

EDIT: Atreiu - if its artificial turf, it would probably be cheaper and easier to install than real grass and give the same effect.

Yeah.
Even better.

[krapmeister]

With the SECU it wouldn't be hard to have all the cars trip a 5-second (say) period on the limiter when they go over the transponder

The pit lane limiter might be a bit drastic from a safety aspect but definately reduced revs for a period of time should be a no-brainer...

The rain light on the back could even flash a different colour for the period of reduced revs... say yellow.

[Gareth]

Originally posted by kar
To me the answer to this is pretty simple actually and they already have the solution. At the paul ricard httt they have that funny blue stripped run off stuff. It's a special kind of super adhesive surface material and it helps arrest the car's speed if they go off-line.

Blue is pretty sticky, red is super sticky. The side effect of this material is the red stuff canes the tyres. I think on problematic chicanes this material should be used. If you want to cut the chicane, fine, but you're going to wreck your tyres in the process.

It actually increases safety + it's provides a high disincentive to just use the run off rather than pay a price by staying on circuit.

This could be done at other circuits where run-off is used too liberally by the drivers.

Like the idea. Only issue for me is it could encourage more DC esque driving - "I'll close the door, he won't hit into me as he could just take to the run off, and that'll screw his tyres for the stint, he he".

[Mika Mika]

angry bees stationed at every corner...

[undersquare]

Originally posted by krapmeister
.

The pit lane limiter might be a bit drastic from a safety aspect but definately reduced revs for a period of time should be a no-brainer...

The rain light on the back could even flash a different colour for the period of reduced revs... say yellow.

Good idea about the rear light. In my mind's eye anyone behind who needed to know would see that the car had gone through the chicane, and would know they'd be on the limiter for a bit. I suppose there would have to be a rule about staying off the racing line until the limiter went off again.

[krapmeister]

Good idea about the rear light. In my mind's eye anyone behind who needed to know would see that the car had gone through the chicane, and would know they'd be on the limiter for a bit. I suppose there would have to be a rule about staying off the racing line until the limiter went off again

I see what your saying but then the FIA stewards may get involved with decisions regarding the 'staying off the racing line' and I think the Spa thing really shows we want them to be involved as little as possible, if at all...

[noikeee]

Alternative for tarmac run-offs?

Big pits of hot boiling lava.

Actually, yesterday in rFactor I found out why tarmac runoffs are so useful: http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=Cvaj6HrebyI

Now, seriously, that Paul Ricard idea seems fine to me. Even if the tracks all start to look like psychedelic mazes.

[grahamt]

Why not use the technology that supermarkets use to stop their trolleys being nicked. As soon as you cross the line the brakes go on. Put them on a timer, say 2 secs.

[Galko877]

Didn't they put tyres in the chicane in Monza 1996 (which caused the retirement of Hill, but Villeneuve and Schumacher also hit them)? Then they concluded it's very dangerous, so they never did it again.

[Risil]

Mandate maximum levels of downforce to a maximum of around 250kg, one-sixth of current levels and around the same as it was in the early 1980s. Then, corner speeds will be slow enough that we can go back to have grass/gravel runoffs!

[undersquare]

Originally posted by krapmeister


I see what your saying but then the FIA stewards may get involved with decisions regarding the 'staying off the racing line' and I think the Spa thing really shows we want them to be involved as little as possible, if at all...

Yes I know. Very disappointing to realise

But however the speed is reduced, glue on the tyres or whatever, and by whatever amount, that problem will be there, they have to keep out of the way and not block. Unless the chicances can contain the car and not release it onto the track, and then there'd be more complicatons.

[Atreiu]

While they fix the run-offs, they might as well get ride of extra wide flat curbs on corner exit. The tracks are already wide enough.

[wewantourdarbyback]

The massive tarmac run off areas are not only providing some advantage at times;

Hamilton spa bus stop (not getting into that)
Kimi spa La source lap 2 and Pouhon penultimate lap
Kubica last lap Fuji

but also removes the spectacle at some of the best corners in the world. Drivers are no safe flat our at Eu Rouge and Copse to give just two examples. I'm half expecting to see one at Bridge this time next season to get rid of that spectacle. A different solution is required not just to stop advantage being gained but to bring back the spectacle.

I can't see what would be done that would impede the drivers in the right way or provide that element of fear that is required to make the spectacle better other than bring back gravel traps, but the drivers wouldn't accept that because of possible safety issues.

[noikeee]

I think Eau Rouge and Copse being flat-out has little to do with fear of crashing by the drivers - it's because the cars simply have developed unbelievable amounts of downforce and grip.

[Kooper]

Originally posted by kar
To me the answer to this is pretty simple actually and they already have the solution. At the paul ricard httt they have that funny blue stripped run off stuff. It's a special kind of super adhesive surface material and it helps arrest the car's speed if they go off-line.

Blue is pretty sticky, red is super sticky. The side effect of this material is the red stuff canes the tyres. I think on problematic chicanes this material should be used. If you want to cut the chicane, fine, but you're going to wreck your tyres in the process.

It actually increases safety + it's provides a high disincentive to just use the run off rather than pay a price by staying on circuit.

This could be done at other circuits where run-off is used too liberally by the drivers.

Cotton candy bollards?

at least if a driver stuffs it he won't starve before getting back to the paddock

[taran]

All these suggestions (while inventive ) are just adding unnecessary complications.
Since the old grass/gravel strips can't come back, simply add 25 seconds to a driver's time if he goes off track (with all wheels). That will work very nicely to prevent drivers from being too adventurous and then "inadvertently" benefiting.

If Hamilton had known he would get a penalty of 25s, I am sure he would have suddenly rediscovered his brake in the McLaren and duly tucked back behind Raikkonen's Ferrari instead of taking the shorter exit.

[glorius&victorius]

Originally posted by wewantourdarbyback
The massive tarmac run off areas are not only providing some advantage at times;

Hamilton spa bus stop (not getting into that)
Kimi spa La source lap 2 and Pouhon penultimate lap
Kubica last lap Fuji

but also removes the spectacle at some of the best corners in the world. Drivers are no safe flat our at Eu Rouge and Copse to give just two examples. I'm half expecting to see one at Bridge this time next season to get rid of that spectacle. A different solution is required not just to stop advantage being gained but to bring back the spectacle.

yeah Kimi looked like he was running on a high speed oval, it was an interesting shot... 2 racing series in one shot

[sensible]

Originally posted by howardt
How about this :
If all 4 wheels leave the circuit, then you automatically get a drive-through penalty.

This may encourage "pushing" other drivers off, so it could be refined to :

If all 4 wheels leave the circuit, then that sector time must be compared with the average of your last 5 times for same sector* - if any time advantage is gained, or if any track position advantage is gained, then a drive through penalty.

* a further refinement would be to compare sector times with the average of the guy 1 position ahead & 1 position behind. Thus on a suddenly-wet track such as we saw on Sunday it's not a comparison with dry sector-times.

This is exactly why the FIA/stewards get condemmed. You can try and make a clear rule, but even for something as apparantly simple as this, its bloody hard to cover every eventuality. In the end the only thing to be done is leave it to the discretion of people. The only problem with that is that people tend to be human, and as such make mistakes. And then the whole discussion starts again.

The only thing wrong with the run-off "rule" (and various other rules) is that it isnt applied with any consistency. So the only "improvement" I'd make is to have the same people judging each race. That way ypu'd hope that if they get it worng, they at least get it wrong in a consistent manner