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Bruno Senna


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#101 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:34

Originally posted by rocketeer
I wonder what the state of Bruno's career would be if his last name had been 'smith'..


Same results, less interest from media, F1 teams, and bulletin boards.

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#102 rocketeer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:43

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld


Same results, less interest from media, F1 teams, and bulletin boards.


Same results only if he was given the same opportunities, which I really doubt.

#103 Philzippy

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 08:58

Originally posted by rocketeer


Same results only if he was given the same opportunities, which I really doubt.


Same can be said for Rosberg but few can say he has no place in F1 (not sure the same can be said of Piquet though!)

#104 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 09:02

Originally posted by rocketeer


Same results only if he was given the same opportunities, which I really doubt.


He was given the opportunities like any other was, because he had the money to pay for it. I could have had the same F3 and GP2 access he did, same driver coaches, same amount of testing, etc. His actual on track performance is his own (even if it's not terribly exciting).

#105 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:53

Originally posted by Philzippy


Same can be said for Rosberg but few can say he has no place in F1 (not sure the same can be said of Piquet though!)


Rosberg proved he deserves his seat in F1 by winning GP2. Senna was beaten by Pantano who noone thinks is F1 worthy.

#106 Jackman

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 12:59

Lots of people think Pantano is F1 worthy. Like everyone who has worked with him.

#107 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:02

Originally posted by Jackman
Lots of people think Pantano is F1 worthy. Like everyone who has worked with him.


So why doesn't he get a second chance, sort of Glock II, you know?

#108 potmotr

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:03

I think Pantano deserves another shot at F1.

Let us not forget Timo Glock was another driver who thought his F1 chance had gone.

Glock also made fairly heavy weather of his GP2 title season.

This year in F1 he overcame a slow start to be quite impressive by the end with strong results, especially against a guy as fast as Trulli.

I think Pantano could do the same.

He's still in his late 20s, so there's plenty of time.

#109 Jackman

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:08

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer
So why doesn't he get a second chance, sort of Glock II, you know?

Frankly it's almost impossible to get into F1 these days: many teams have junior drivers to promote, and a couple of managers have most of the remaining spots available. Other than one seat at Force India you can't buy your way in anymore, and often results alone aren't enough. Glock was astonishingly lucky to get in, and that's with a BMW testing role: you have no idea how much work went into getting that seat, and likewise for Piquet.

Pantano has talent, but no affiliation with any F1 team, no high powered manager, and no cash: you do the math. He's the only driver to be paid to drive in GP2, which tells you the respect he has earnt in that paddock: I think those team bosses know a thing or two about drivers.

#110 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:21

Originally posted by Jackman
Pantano has talent, but no affiliation with any F1 team, no high powered manager, and no cash: you do the math. He's the only driver to be paid to drive in GP2, which tells you the respect he has earnt in that paddock: I think those team bosses know a thing or two about drivers.


What, drivers like Senna or Digrassi are not payed?

#111 thiscocks

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:22

Personally I can't understand why F1 teams are interested in him... He hasn't won anything big, and has just been 'good' in gp2. Hardly enough for an F1 seat I would have thought. Saying that no one else seems to stand out from the lower racing divisions either. What makes him stand out is his sir-name. Thats all. If Honda take him, I would be shocked, especially as Barricello would be the best choice BY A MILE.

#112 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:23

Senna and di Grassi might have gotten some basic expenses out of their sponsors, but Giorgio was getting a fully free drive AND wages on top of it by his team.

#113 Jackman

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:28

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer
What, drivers like Senna or Digrassi are not payed?

No one gets paid below F1, other than their racing costs and expenses.

#114 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:28

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Senna and di Grassi might have gotten some basic expenses out of their sponsors, but Giorgio was getting a fully free drive AND wages on top of it by his team.


Ok, thanks for the info, Ross. :up:

#115 Bernd Rosemeyer

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:29

Originally posted by Jackman
No one gets paid below F1, other than their racing costs and expenses.


Really? How about Seybass and CART, or Montoya and NASCAR?

#116 Raul

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:44

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


Really? How about Seybass and CART, or Montoya and NASCAR?


Those are not below F1 IMO.
But parallels.

#117 Jackman

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 13:48

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer
Really? How about Seybass and CART, or Montoya and NASCAR?

Different line: I was talking about Eurocentric open wheel racing. Although you'd probably be stunned at how little Bourdais got paid for his first year in CART.

#118 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 14:00

Originally posted by Bernd Rosemeyer


Ok, thanks for the info, Ross. :up:


Di Grassi probably got a salary from Renault for his testing work too which is seperate from his RDD job. Someone like Grosjean probably gets enough money for the taxi to the airport.

#119 Jackman

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 14:08

Grosjean and di Grassi are on the same deal (via RDD), but the Brazilian probably makes a little more because he gets more time in the F1 car. Although Grosjean works in a bank, so overall he probably makes way more.

But it's amazing how little money you need as a racing driver when your food, transport, exercise and racing car costs are taken care of.

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#120 Ross Stonefeld

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 14:14

If I took those costs out of my day-to-day I would need money for...



Well, I suppose I could get magazine subscriptions easily and video games in some sort of contra deal.



Uh...


...clothes? Maybe? And I wouldn't be home enough to burn through enough new outfits for going out and doing stuff to make a noticeable dent. And that's assuming the team wasn't sponsored by a brand I didn't mind wearing. I doubt anyone at McLaren have to pay for those suits, and I could survive very happily wearing Boss alllll the time.

I'd probably get some ridiculously high end computer (I'm talking 5 figures) but at that point you could just say "Can I have a driving simulator installed in my lounge?" and write it off as a testing expense. Likewise you wouldnt need to buy a Gatorade at the newsagent, you could get the stuff wholesale and the team might cover it.


Kinda makes you wonder what guys do with 10mil when all their expenses are covered. And insurance.

Honestly I think I'd only need "Oh crap I'm lost in a country I've never been in before" funds but I'm sure someone looks after you when you're on the company clock.

Is it really all just showing up and driving?

#121 Jackman

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 14:22

Originally posted by Ross Stonefeld
Is it really all just showing up and driving?

Pretty much, and even in GP2 a lot of drivers have someone to 'look after' them (sometimes a physio, sometimes a goffer/trainer) : Grosjean has a guy with him at all times to drive him around, push him for a run, etc, while di Grassi doesn't because he mostly brings his girlfriend to the track instead. In F1 they all hire someone to just do stuff (errands, simple physio, keep them on time for everything) : Massa has Piquet's old physio living with him in Monaco, some of the others seem to just pay a mate to carry their bags or whatever.

It's a strange world when you're a racing driver: I've seen so many guys have to learn how to do anything after racing, from using an ATM to paying a bill.

#122 Paolo

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 14:23

Pantano is enormously respected as a driver.

Piercarlo Ghinzani, Italy A1GP boss, was recently asked on Autosprint about the team's poor resuilts.

His words:

"It is due to our choice to be a "filiere" for young pilots. Otherwise I'd put Pantano in the car and he would beat anyone else "

#123 molive

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 17:57

So, testing times...

Today Senna's best lap was a mere .289sec slower than Button's best lap.

Button 1min21s387
Senna 1min21s676
Di Grassi 1min22s283

BTW, Senna only had 2 sets of slicks, and one of the runs was hampered by a red flag.

Not too bad, imo, but I'm suspect.;)

#124 Paolo

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 18:10

Originally posted by molive
So, testing times...

Today Senna's best lap was a mere .289sec slower than Button's best lap.

Button 1min21s387
Senna 1min21s676
Di Grassi 1min22s283

BTW, Senna only had 2 sets of slicks, and one of the runs was hampered by a red flag.

Not too bad, imo, but I'm suspect.;)


That's .289 from Button, not from Gilles Villeneuve....

#125 Gugaf1

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 18:24

This was Bruno Senna´s first contact with a current f1 car. And to be this close from a experienced good quality driver such as Button is impressive.

#126 volvo Death Spell

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 18:28

Originally posted by Paolo


That's .289 from Button, not from Gilles Villeneuve....


Even Gilles Villeneuve took a while to get on the pace when he first tested for Ferrari at Fiorano in 77...

#127 molive

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 19:39

Originally posted by volvo Death Spell
Even Gilles Villeneuve took a while to get on the pace when he first tested for Ferrari at Fiorano in 77...


Yes, but Gilles didn't have a famous name to live up to.

Most people (including Brazilian fans) will set a "Senna standard" for Bruno and (if he actually gets the job) nothing but a total massacre of Jenson will do.

#128 tkulla

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 19:48

Originally posted by molive


Yes, but Gilles didn't have a famous name to live up to.

Most people (including Brazilian fans) will set a "Senna standard" for Bruno and (if he actually gets the job) nothing but a total massacre of Jenson will do.


Really? I don't think people will expect anything of the sort. Frankly I'll be impressed if he manages to outqualify Button five or six times all season (if he gets the ride).

#129 molive

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 20:11

Originally posted by tkulla


Really? I don't think people will expect anything of the sort. Frankly I'll be impressed if he manages to outqualify Button five or six times all season (if he gets the ride).


Me too, but imo the same name that helped him to this point will become quite a burden if the good results arent there from day one.

#130 billm99uk

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 20:21

Originally posted by molive
So, testing times...

Today Senna's best lap was a mere .289sec slower than Button's best lap.

Button 1min21s387
Senna 1min21s676
Di Grassi 1min22s283

BTW, Senna only had 2 sets of slicks, and one of the runs was hampered by a red flag.

Not too bad, imo, but I'm suspect.;)


F1 fans read far too much into F1 testing times where there are always a lot of variables we're unaware of. You have to look at their overall record to get a better view and by that standard Senna is good, but not THAT good. A fairly consistent frontrunner and occasional race winner, but not a championship winner. His GP2 performances all depend on how you rate Pantano as a standard, but even at the upper end of the scale, where Pantano is the next err.. Ricardo Patrese, you'd expect a true star to be able to beat him at least more than half the time. My guess is he wouldn't disgrace himself in F1, but wouldn't do anything to keep himself in a competitve seat, long-term.

Got to feel kind of sorry for him with that name, though. Probably only Jacques had that size of hump to get over...

#131 Craven Morehead

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 20:38

Originally posted by billm99uk


F1 fans read far too much into F1 testing times where there are always a lot of variables we're unaware of. You have to look at their overall record to get a better view and by that standard Senna is good, but not THAT good. A fairly consistent frontrunner and occasional race winner, but not a championship winner. His GP2 performances all depend on how you rate Pantano as a standard, but even at the upper end of the scale, where Pantano is the next err.. Ricardo Patrese, you'd expect a true star to be able to beat him at least more than half the time. My guess is he wouldn't disgrace himself in F1, but wouldn't do anything to keep himself in a competitve seat, long-term.

Got to feel kind of sorry for him with that name, though. Probably only Jacques had that size of hump to get over...


I agree with what you're saying in this post but I'm compelled to say I'm afraid Pantano will never measure up to the likes of Ricardo Patrese. RC's F1 career spanned 16 years across three decades. He started 256 Grand Prixs, winning 6 and finishing on the podium 37 times. He scored 8 F1 pole positions and 13 fastest laps. By comparison Pantano had a handfull of F1 starts that essentially led nowhere, until he was dropped. I doubt we'll see him back.

#132 tkulla

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 20:56

Originally posted by Craven Morehead


I agree with what you're saying in this post but I'm compelled to say I'm afraid Pantano will never measure up to the likes of Ricardo Patrese. RC's F1 career spanned 16 years across three decades. He started 256 Grand Prixs, winning 6 and finishing on the podium 37 times. He scored 8 F1 pole positions and 13 fastest laps. By comparison Pantano had a handfull of F1 starts that essentially led nowhere, until he was dropped. I doubt we'll see him back.


That just means that it should be more likely for a true upcoming "star" in GP2 to beat him. The fact that none of them could is rather telling, I think.

#133 molive

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Posted 19 November 2008 - 23:26

Originally posted by tkulla


That just means that it should be more likely for a true upcoming "star" in GP2 to beat him. The fact that none of them could is rather telling, I think.


Either that or you havent watched the GP2 season.


And to billm99uk, for what I read that was not a normal testing session, but a sort of shootout between Bruno and Lucas for Rubinho's seat, with Jenson used as measure. In that sense, Bruno faired better than Lucas so far.

#134 SB

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 00:56

Originally posted by molive


Yes, but Gilles didn't have a famous name to live up to.

Most people (including Brazilian fans) will set a "Senna standard" for Bruno and (if he actually gets the job) nothing but a total massacre of Jenson will do.


So anyone could find out how Uncle Ayrton did in his first F1 test for Williams in 1983 btw ??

#135 noikeee

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:09

Originally posted by molive


Either that or you havent watched the GP2 season.


I did and Senna didn't convince me...

#136 911

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:26

Originally posted by SB


So anyone could find out how Uncle Ayrton did in his first F1 test for Williams in 1983 btw ??


If I'm not mistaken, I believe he went 1 second quicker than the team's best time at Donington, but I don't know what the conditions were. Here's a link to his first test:

Ayrton Senna's first F1 test - Williams, 1983

#137 molive

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 01:44

Originally posted by SB


So anyone could find out how Uncle Ayrton did in his first F1 test for Williams in 1983 btw ??


Ayrton was great in his first F1 drive, but it was not a shootout. F.Williams was impressed but (BIG mistake) let Senna go to Toleman instead.

#138 Racer Joe

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:33

Originally posted by molive


Ayrton was great in his first F1 drive, but it was not a shootout. F.Williams was impressed but (BIG mistake) let Senna go to Toleman instead.


IIRC, SFW said that they had contracted drivers for the following season and he couldn't really hang on to Senna.

#139 MonzaOne

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 02:53

Originally posted by Raul


Those are not below F1 IMO.
But parallels.


There is no parallel to f1. The technology is in the research and forefront range - no other series is like this. Also, the level of driving ability required is significantly greater than any other series.

There may be drivers in other series that could do well in f1 but like Mount Everest, it remains the greatest achievement in motor racing for a driver.

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#140 airwise

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 15:06

Originally posted by 911


If I'm not mistaken, I believe he went 1 second quicker than the team's best time at Donington, but I don't know what the conditions were. Here's a link to his first test:

Ayrton Senna's first F1 test - Williams, 1983


Lovely to watch - thanks for that.

And they say Hamilton was sure of himself ;)

PS. Was nice to see the name Senna pipping Piquet in the time sheets on Autosport. Brought memories flooding back.

#141 Fortymark

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 16:06

Originally posted by 911


If I'm not mistaken, I believe he went 1 second quicker than the team's best time at Donington, but I don't know what the conditions were. Here's a link to his first test:

Ayrton Senna's first F1 test - Williams, 1983


I´ve seen that clip before but didn´t notice what he said in the beginning.
"All the races that I´ve done here in donington I´ve won"
So true :up:

#142 LuckyStrike1

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 16:14

I don't think Bruno Senna is WDC-material and I think it's fair to have doubts about him having GP-winning potential even. But I do think he is good enough to be in a raceseat in F1, and what he did at the test for Honda is pretty much what you could expect.

He's probably more of a stable than a super quick driver but he would probably do quite well in F1, quite well of course being a relative term. I would expect him to perform like let's say Tiago Monteiro - not too bad, not too great but decent.

#143 Rob

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 16:27

It's very easy to start comparing Bruno to Ayrton, but Bruno is his own man. Even if he isn't as good as his uncle (and how many fit into that category?), he's still fairly good.

#144 billm99uk

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 17:38

Originally posted by Craven Morehead


I agree with what you're saying in this post but I'm compelled to say I'm afraid Pantano will never measure up to the likes of Ricardo Patrese. RC's F1 career spanned 16 years across three decades. He started 256 Grand Prixs, winning 6 and finishing on the podium 37 times. He scored 8 F1 pole positions and 13 fastest laps. By comparison Pantano had a handfull of F1 starts that essentially led nowhere, until he was dropped. I doubt we'll see him back.


Probably not, but all I was saying is that's about as highly as anyone could reasonably argue he would perform given his record (i.e. occasional race winner in a good car). He's far too old to match Patrese's longevity now anyway. My own assessment of his talents would probably be about the same as LuckyStrike1's - wouldn't disgrace himself but wouldn't be up the sharp end of the grid too often either (well unless the car turned out to be a Williams FW14B equivalent!).

#145 Levike

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 17:59

Originally posted by LuckyStrike1
I don't think Bruno Senna is WDC-material and I think it's fair to have doubts about him having GP-winning potential even. But I do think he is good enough to be in a raceseat in F1, and what he did at the test for Honda is pretty much what you could expect.

He's probably more of a stable than a super quick driver but he would probably do quite well in F1, quite well of course being a relative term. I would expect him to perform like let's say Tiago Monteiro - not too bad, not too great but decent.


I don't think that. He will be great. :p

#146 engel

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 18:26

Bruno lacks experience, that's true, but that in itself doesnt mean much ... Raikkonen had less experience when Peter Sauber brought him to F1, heck he didnt even qualify for a superlicence :)

The Senna name sells, both in Japan and Brazil, and to an extent the rest of the racing world. If he didn't carry that name then yeah probably he would be spending a second season in F2 and if he managed to string a good season together he would get a test and maybe a seat. Because he carries the name though he gets a seat in a top funded F1 team, what he grows to be is pretty much up to him. He might develop into a great driver, he might tank, difference between the two isnt all that great. He got a great break, a top team on paper that is far from top on track, he can learn alot without the pressure of mixing it for the front row, but bottom line it's not easy to predict how he will use the chance he got

#147 santori

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 19:37

On the SPEEDTV Indycar forum there's a rumour that Pantano might be testing for Panther Racing. Does anyone know anything about that?

#148 tkulla

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Posted 20 November 2008 - 22:16

Originally posted by engel
Bruno lacks experience, that's true, but that in itself doesnt mean much ... Raikkonen had less experience when Peter Sauber brought him to F1, heck he didnt even qualify for a superlicence :)

The Senna name sells, both in Japan and Brazil, and to an extent the rest of the racing world. If he didn't carry that name then yeah probably he would be spending a second season in F2 and if he managed to string a good season together he would get a test and maybe a seat. Because he carries the name though he gets a seat in a top funded F1 team, what he grows to be is pretty much up to him. He might develop into a great driver, he might tank, difference between the two isnt all that great. He got a great break, a top team on paper that is far from top on track, he can learn alot without the pressure of mixing it for the front row, but bottom line it's not easy to predict how he will use the chance he got


Except that he has a top-flight teammate. Sure, there's a lot of ground between equaling a 2xWDC (Hamilton) and getting whitewashed in Q by the same guy (Piquet), but if I had to bet on it I'd say he ends up more on the Piquet end of that scale. Button isn't Alonso, but if the car suits him he's going to be extremely tough for Bruno to beat even once in a while (whether it's in 2009 or 2010).

#149 Craven Morehead

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 00:10

Originally posted by billm99uk


Probably not, but all I was saying is that's about as highly as anyone could reasonably argue he would perform given his record (i.e. occasional race winner in a good car). He's far too old to match Patrese's longevity now anyway. My own assessment of his talents would probably be about the same as LuckyStrike1's - wouldn't disgrace himself but wouldn't be up the sharp end of the grid too often either (well unless the car turned out to be a Williams FW14B equivalent!).


Yep, I'd agree with all of this. :up:

#150 as65p

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Posted 21 November 2008 - 00:25

Originally posted by Levike


I don't think that. He will be great. :p


I think it all depends on how one judges the experience factor (or "lifetime spend racing", IOW).

He's still well behind on that compared to other guys of the same age. But frankly I've no idea how much emphasis to put on this fact. That's for the experts to judge.

What can be said is that his record so far hasn't been anywhere near those who became really great later, including Ayrton. Then again, he had a rather different, unique career path.