Jump to content


Photo

Japan 2008 - Are The Penalties Justified?


  • Please log in to reply
54 replies to this topic

Poll: Japan 2008 - Are The Penalties Justified? (203 member(s) have cast votes)

  1. Hamilton's was justified (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Massa's was justified (11 votes [5.45%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.45%

  3. Hamilton's was justified, but Massa's wasn't (13 votes [6.44%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.44%

  4. Massa's was justified, but Hamilton's wasn't (86 votes [42.57%])

    Percentage of vote: 42.57%

  5. Both were justified (83 votes [41.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 41.09%

  6. Neither were justified (9 votes [4.46%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.46%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 D.M.N.

D.M.N.
  • RC Forum Host

  • 7,148 posts
  • Joined: May 08

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:24

I think both were.

Right call by stewards IMO.

Advertisement

#2 Mr_London

Mr_London
  • Member

  • 899 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:28

The start as most GP's is sometimes messy, 1st time i have seen a penalty for what Lewis did,
Massa took another car out, how can both penalties be equal?

#3 Enkei

Enkei
  • Member

  • 5,747 posts
  • Joined: November 01

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:28

I don't care anymore, they were handed and there's nothing to do about it now.
All I wish for is the FIA to stop intervening in such an inconsequent way.

Lewis overcooked the first corner, but the only ones that were disadvantaged where Kimi and him.
If we go back in time, I can't remember any other driver being punished like that for screwing up his start.

As for Massa, it's about time someone's going to have a word with him.
It's been a couple of races now filled with dangerous incidents.
I bet he get's away with a 10-K fine or something.

#4 osj

osj
  • Member

  • 137 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:32

Both were justified...Lewis' driving at the start was irresponsibly dangerous and could have caused a serious pileup...and the Massa penalty was obvious.

In fact, despite being a Ferrari supporter, I think Massa got off lightly. Lewis has a point when he says that it doesn't seem right that he and Massa received the same penalty. But I can't think what other penalty Massa could have got - maybe a ten-second stop-go?

On the other hand, Massa's bumping of Lewis didn't really endanger anyone, because it was at fairly slow speed, whereas although Lewis didn't hit anyone, his move was far more dangerous to those around him (especially the two Finns).

#5 Nonesuch

Nonesuch
  • Member

  • 1,951 posts
  • Joined: October 08

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:34

Neither were, let the men race it out on track. Unless it gets dangerous, the stewards should leave well enough alone.

#6 F1Fanatic.co.uk

F1Fanatic.co.uk
  • Member

  • 1,725 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:39

Massa's was a straight penalty. See Kovalainen-Webber at Spa.

Hamilton's was, in the context of recent penalties, impossible to understand. Raikkonen lost control of his car at Monaco and hit Sutil, taking him out, and didn't get a penalty. I didn't think that deserved a penalty at the time but in light of Hamilton getting one today for a lesser crime, surely Raikkonen should have done?

The rules become more contradictory and impenetrable with every race that passes.

#7 Gilles4Ever

Gilles4Ever
  • RC Forum Admin

  • 19,952 posts
  • Joined: June 04

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:43

I am sick and tired of the stewards feeling the need to voice their f***ing opinions every time there is some form of racing, drivers make mistakes trying to pass thats the nature of the beast - its become a total nanny state situation

#8 Anomander

Anomander
  • Member

  • 535 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:47

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
Massa's was a straight penalty. See Kovalainen-Webber at Spa.

Hamilton's was, in the context of recent penalties, impossible to understand. Raikkonen lost control of his car at Monaco and hit Sutil, taking him out, and didn't get a penalty. I didn't think that deserved a penalty at the time but in light of Hamilton getting one today for a lesser crime, surely Raikkonen should have done?

The rules become more contradictory and impenetrable with every race that passes.


Good point on the sutil incident, that was considered ok because Kimi wasn't in control, and at canada because he was in contro, it was a good penalty, then the question to ask, was Lewis in control today.

I think Lewis would be better saying stuff F1 and go race in the US and beat everyone over there.

#9 Hippo

Hippo
  • Member

  • 2,378 posts
  • Joined: April 08

Posted 12 October 2008 - 07:48

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
The rules become more contradictory and impenetrable with every race that passes.


No, not the rules but rather the ruling. OTOH it remains pretty consistent: FIA intervening whenever vaguely possible to manipulate outcomes. It's not even strictly against McLaren but more against the build up of a large gap in WDC. Those clowns are obviously playing sort of a card game there.

#10 giacomo

giacomo
  • Member

  • 6,977 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:12

Massas penalty was okay.

The ones of Hamilton and Bourdais were a travesty.

I really wish Ecclestone would have the balls to get rid of Mosley and his personal feud against Dennis.

#11 moredeep

moredeep
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:15

I'd probably get a lot of flack for quoting Hamilton... but here goes nothing:

"We both got the same penalty, but I didn't hit anyone and he did," he said. "I guess that's just the name of the game."

this says it all

#12 airwise

airwise
  • Member

  • 2,001 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:23

How's this for a scenario. Massa punts Hamilton into a spin having gone off track. Seen clearly on TV - FIA have to give a drive through. Quick thinking - even it up by penalising Hamilton for ambitious first corner mistake. Hey there's a first time for everything. Without Hamilton penalty, Massa would almost certainly be a net loser in the points battle.

End of race. Only one point gain. Where else can we find a point or two? Ah Bourdais.....

Whilst the first two penalties "could" be justified, the third really does through us a curve ball.

#13 Mr G

Mr G
  • Member

  • 53 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:27

Originally posted by Anomander


Good point on the sutil incident, that was considered ok because Kimi wasn't in control, and at canada because he was in contro, it was a good penalty, then the question to ask, was Lewis in control today.

I think Lewis would be better saying stuff F1 and go race in the US and beat everyone over there.

Kimi did not escape a penalty in Monaco because was out of control, he did not get a penalty because he did not try to dive on the inside of Sutil but just lost control of the car on his own. Today Lewis lost control of his car because he dived on the inside of Kimi. totally different situation.

Massas penalty was as expected, nothing to discuss. Lewis made a big mistakes at the start hand could have taken out allot of cars in the process but I don't know if I think it should result in a penalty. It's the start of the race and he did not hit another car.

#14 santori

santori
  • Member

  • 3,912 posts
  • Joined: July 04

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:28

Massa's penalty is justified.

Hamilton made a mistake but I'm not sure about the penalty. I'll have to watch the start again when I'm not so sleepy.

Bourdais' penalty is absolutely bloody outrageous.

#15 Mika Mika

Mika Mika
  • Member

  • 6,738 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:29

Torro Rosso are gonna go outta there way to help Massa now arnt they!!

#16 Mr G

Mr G
  • Member

  • 53 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:31

Originally posted by Mika Mika
Torro Rosso are gonna go outta there way to help Massa now arnt they!!

What did Massa do to them? If they are angry they should blame FIA not Ferrari or Massa.

#17 peroa

peroa
  • Member

  • 8,842 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:32

Originally posted by airwise
How's this for a scenario. Massa punts Hamilton into a spin having gone off track. Seen clearly on TV - FIA have to give a drive through. Quick thinking - even it up by penalising Hamilton for ambitious first corner mistake. Hey there's a first time for everything. Without Hamilton penalty, Massa would almost certainly be a net loser in the points battle.

End of race. Only one point gain. Where else can we find a point or two? Ah Bourdais.....

Whilst the first two penalties "could" be justified, the third really does through us a curve ball.


I don`t think scenario is the right word.
Reality suits better ...

#18 pgj

pgj
  • Member

  • 1,691 posts
  • Joined: March 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:34

What a lame thread.

#19 dr funkenstein

dr funkenstein
  • Member

  • 80 posts
  • Joined: August 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 08:52

I dislike Hamilton and I know I'm going to feel dirty after saying this but (deep breath) I think his penalty was totally unjustified. He just messed up his start, made a terrible mistake, but that's it. Racing incident, end of story. How can anyone say that it was dangerous driving? Well, of course it was! But not more than it always is! Driving half a metre away from two cars at 300 km/h is always going to be dangerous!
Now, Massa taking Hamilton out, that really was an avoidable accident. He cracked under pressure for the nth time and took a risk everybody knew was never going to work. I mean, you could see it coming, couldn't you?
Now I'll go and wash my mouth. I just hope Kubica wins the WDC. He's definitively made less mistakes than Massa and Hamilton all year. If the BMW had been as competitive as the McLaren or the Ferrari, he would be champion by now.

Advertisement

#20 primer

primer
  • Member

  • 6,664 posts
  • Joined: April 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:01

Yes both were. But there are some people for whom Lewis is never wrong. :yawn:

#21 moredeep

moredeep
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:03

in order

At the start
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=CGsXGFAZqUw

Massa & Hamilton
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=YETmRnqJ32w

Massa & Bourdais
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=e2u93VT7m2s

decide for yourself

#22 Slowinfastout

Slowinfastout
  • Member

  • 9,681 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:07

Stupid penalties, let them race FFS..

#23 ClubmanGT

ClubmanGT
  • Member

  • 1,218 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:11

Both McLarens left the track and gained an advantage...

Now THERE'S a can of worms for ya!

#24 DarthWillie

DarthWillie
  • Member

  • 1,690 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 09:13

Originally posted by primer
Yes both were. But there are some people for whom Lewis is never wrong. :yawn:


What bothers me is the fact that Lewis was penalised for somthing Heiki did, Heiki didn't get punished. If they punish like this all the time, no problem, but this was stupidity

#25 Konsta

Konsta
  • Member

  • 1,739 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 12 October 2008 - 10:25

I´d have to say that both were more or less justified. Massa´s was more straightforward but it was also time to "tell" Lewis that his antics have to stop. LH is darn fast but he is not a fair driver - he does not seem to be able to take blame at all ):

Seb´s penalty was not OK, I´d almost be willing to give FM another instead of punishing SB.

#26 moredeep

moredeep
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 10:33

Originally posted by Konsta
I´d have to say that both were more or less justified. Massa´s was more straightforward but it was also time to "tell" Lewis that his antics have to stop. LH is darn fast but he is not a fair driver - he does not seem to be able to take blame at all ):


to be fair, Lewis' brakes locked up, thus not being able to turn right at the first corner, giving the impression that he was just trying to do a chop on Raikonnen. This was my first impression too. But after multiple replays, to me it was just a racing incident in which a penalty is not warranted.

see for yourself
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=CGsXGFAZqUw (0:40 into the video is the decisive camera angle)

#27 Anomander

Anomander
  • Member

  • 535 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 10:35

Hopefully Konsta will come back to his comment and review in light of Massa little speech and condem him aswell.

#28 mazda3237

mazda3237
  • New Member

  • 22 posts
  • Joined: September 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 10:37

Why did Bourdais get penalised for Massa's second offence of the day? Massa was totally in the wrong in that incident too. What ferrari bias?

#29 Anomander

Anomander
  • Member

  • 535 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 10:38

Originally posted by mazda3237
Why did Bourdais get penalised for Massa's second offence of the day? Massa was totally in the wrong in that incident too. What ferrari bias?


Gives Massa 1 extra point in the WDC & WCC

#30 Konsta

Konsta
  • Member

  • 1,739 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:14

Originally posted by Anomander
Hopefully Konsta will come back to his comment and review in light of Massa little speech and condem him aswell.


I was not trying to defend FM at all. I don´t know where that imression came up. Both WDC contenders were dismal today.

#31 moredeep

moredeep
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:21

Originally posted by Konsta


I was not trying to defend FM at all. I don´t know where that imression came up. Both WDC contenders were dismal today.


WDC contenders' perfomances were dismal indeed. But what people are fired up about is the total lack of fairness today.

At least in Spa this year, there was just 1 controversy. Here we have 2 separate controversies-- 2 completely uncalled for penalties in which both just so happen to benefit 1 team

#32 AFCA

AFCA
  • Member

  • 6,661 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:32

Massa's penalty was obviously justified, he went with two wheels over the grass coming from a beaten position.

Hamilton's decision was justified also. That was very dangerous and irresponsable driving, if Raikkonen hadn't looked in his mirrors and steered in, Hamilton would have heavily crashed into him... It cost the race leader some 5/6 places, that's sort of the same as making someone else spin making him loose this amount of positions.

#33 Bloggsworth

Bloggsworth
  • Member

  • 7,438 posts
  • Joined: April 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:48

Originally posted by AFCA
Massa's penalty was obviously justified, he went with two wheels over the grass coming from a beaten position.

Hamilton's decision was justified also. That was very dangerous and irresponsable driving, if Raikkonen hadn't looked in his mirrors and steered in, Hamilton would have heavily crashed into him... It cost the race leader some 5/6 places, that's sort of the same as making someone else spin making him loose this amount of positions.


All fine and dandy, but in 58 years of Grand Prix racing no other driver has been penalised for out-braking himself in the first corner - coincidence that it happened today, of course it is.

And if you care to replay your recording, you will see that what Hamilton did had nothing to do with the collisions behind him.

I was glad I didn't get up in the small hours to watch the race, somehow I knew that the result wouldn't be settled on the track.

Won't get up for China either, if Hamilton is ahead of Massa, they'll just invent another infraction with which to clobber McLaren - Hope Alonso wins when they do that, it would get right up Ferrari's nose.

#34 moredeep

moredeep
  • Member

  • 143 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:50

Originally posted by AFCA
Massa's penalty was obviously justified, he went with two wheels over the grass coming from a beaten position.


I'm not sure if you're referring to my post, but if so... what I meant was that the 2 uncalled for penalties were that of Bourdais and Hamilton.

As for Hamilton's being justified or not, well it's not. He lost control because of breaking too late in the turn. Hmmm... wow this sort of reminds of the time when Kimi lost control and hit Sutil. Just kidding it doesn't because Hammy didn't hit anyone today and Kimi didn't get a penalty in Monaco

see for yourself
http://uk.youtube.co...h?v=CGsXGFAZqUw (0:40 into the video is the decisive camera angle)

#35 Atreiu

Atreiu
  • Member

  • 9,776 posts
  • Joined: May 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:57

If trying to make up for a bad stat on cold tyres is illegal, then I guess Hamilton's penalty was perfectly deserved. And then I wonder what happened at Spa that everyone got away with whatever they did on the first corner despite it being a huge mess with colision(s) as well.


This isn't bump car racing in county fairs, is it? Massa had to be penalized, and he was lucky (perhaps it wasn't luck) to only be slapped on the wrist instead of getting a proper 10 second stop and go penalty.


Bourdais had it comming too. How dare him keep his line when exiting the pits in the most predictable and orderly fashion when a Ferrari comes near?

#36 Andy35

Andy35
  • Member

  • 3,369 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:58

The problem the FIA has made for themselves here is that due to their actions in the past they now have to apply the rules all the time for any incident so they cannot be accused of favouritism. The problem with this though is that the repeated reliance on the rules shows how poor those rules actually are.

In the last race we had people who went in under a safety car getting a worse penalty than a team that knocked over a mechanic and who could have caused a pit fire. Go figure.


THE RULES ARE SHIT AND NEED OVERHAULING.

But they won't because the stewards and the FIA like playing an unpredictable but wrathful God.

:mad:

Regards

Andy

#37 Anomander

Anomander
  • Member

  • 535 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 12:59

Originally posted by Konsta


I was not trying to defend FM at all. I don´t know where that imression came up. Both WDC contenders were dismal today.


No, but you said lewis is not able to accept blame or fault. He did say he was wrong at the start in contrast to Massa who thought he was fine in both crashes, so its seems FM can't accept when he is at fault.

#38 F1Fanatic.co.uk

F1Fanatic.co.uk
  • Member

  • 1,725 posts
  • Joined: May 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 13:02

Originally posted by Mr G

Kimi did not escape a penalty in Monaco because was out of control, he did not get a penalty because he did not try to dive on the inside of Sutil but just lost control of the car on his own. Today Lewis lost control of his car because he dived on the inside of Kimi. totally different situation.

So you're saying that if Hamilton had just driven into the back of Raikkonen everything would have been fine?

#39 MichaelPM

MichaelPM
  • Member

  • 2,587 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 12 October 2008 - 13:05

Massa was a bit over optimistic but then so was Lewis for overtaking like that when he had to pit after ruining his tyres (again).
Lewis could not of knocked more drivers off at the first corner if he tried.

Two years in a row we will have championships that are not worth remembering.

Advertisement

#40 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 9,449 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 13:07

Massa's penalty? Yes, no doubt whatsoever. Unfair move by Felipe.

Hamilton's penalty? Yes. I know people don't get penalized at starts very often, but you have to consider that Hamilton already has a long historial of borderline too aggressive moves - no wonder the stewards are more eager to penalize him. The penalties are supposed to calm him down. And yes, I know Spa's penalty was bollocks but you can't be compensated afterwards for it. He was already lucky not to have picked up anything at Monza after those moves on Glock and Webber.

Bourdais' penalty? You have got to be f-kin kidding me. That was 100% Massa's fault for not looking at the mirrors, Bourdais was occupying the apex.

Btw, Webber should've got a warning after that crazy nudge on Massa in the main straight.

#41 Ruf

Ruf
  • Member

  • 1,278 posts
  • Joined: July 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 13:16

Originally posted by Enkei
As for Hamilton, it's about time someone's going to have a word with him.

Fixed.

Originally posted by moredeep
"We both got the same penalty, but I didn't hit anyone and he did," he said. "I guess that's just the name of the game."

Autosport:
Raikkonen: Both McLarens hit me



#42 Anomander

Anomander
  • Member

  • 535 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 13:21

Someone has said that Both McLaren never hit Kimi and that he is telling porkys.

#43 giacomo

giacomo
  • Member

  • 6,977 posts
  • Joined: December 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 13:23

Originally posted by Anomander
Someone has said that Both McLaren never hit Kimi and that he is telling porkys.

'Someone' is not very specific at all...

#44 AFCA

AFCA
  • Member

  • 6,661 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 13:33

Originally posted by moredeep


I'm not sure if you're referring to my post, but if so...


I wasn't, I just posted only reading the thread title.

#45 Konsta

Konsta
  • Member

  • 1,739 posts
  • Joined: November 98

Posted 12 October 2008 - 14:06

Originally posted by Anomander


No, but you said lewis is not able to accept blame or fault. He did say he was wrong at the start in contrast to Massa who thought he was fine in both crashes, so its seems FM can't accept when he is at fault.


You´re right - Lewis actually did accept that it was a mistake but it´s just that actions and words are in a stark contrast. He´s made boneheaded moves before and hasn´t done anything about changing his ways.

#46 Tuffy

Tuffy
  • Member

  • 2,151 posts
  • Joined: October 00

Posted 12 October 2008 - 14:10

Originally posted by F1Fanatic.co.uk
Massa's was a straight penalty. See Kovalainen-Webber at Spa.

Hamilton's was, in the context of recent penalties, impossible to understand. Raikkonen lost control of his car at Monaco and hit Sutil, taking him out, and didn't get a penalty. I didn't think that deserved a penalty at the time but in light of Hamilton getting one today for a lesser crime, surely Raikkonen should have done?

The rules become more contradictory and impenetrable with every race that passes.



:up:

#47 Anomander

Anomander
  • Member

  • 535 posts
  • Joined: May 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 14:10

Originally posted by giacomo
'Someone' is not very specific at all...


Someone on this board, but if you read Kimi press report it is now down to just one McLaren driver which I presume will be Heikki, making the earlier point by Ruf obsolete.

#48 BunnyK

BunnyK
  • Member

  • 444 posts
  • Joined: July 05

Posted 12 October 2008 - 14:13

Funny thing is two penalties given to Hamilton and in both he used the runoff area... now do you think he would have tried that move had he found grass or sand at the exit of the track :down:

#49 prxty

prxty
  • Member

  • 427 posts
  • Joined: March 08

Posted 12 October 2008 - 14:21

It is not allowed to chop at the start. You take your line and you keep it.
It is done to avoid blocking at the start because it is dangerous.

Lewis is doing it the whole season (actually last year too) and was protected by the stewards.
Now he has got (finally) a penalty for it because this time it went too much. He could have caused a big accident if Raikkonen was not fast enough to see the kamikaze Hamilton coming down.

And still people call it racing. Probably is racing in a local karting track but not at professional level.

#50 inca_roads

inca_roads
  • Member

  • 1,425 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 12 October 2008 - 14:42

Why oh why does Lewis Hamilton keep getting penalised for offences no-one has ever been penalised for in the past? They are just creating new rules for him all the time. It's just getting so farcical I can't even be bothered to argue about it anymore. I just knew, going to bed after watching the race, that when I got up they'd have handed Bourdais a 25-second penalty too, after checking how far he was in front of Massa. And guess what, they did.